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sarah707
08-07-2009, 12:31 PM
It is a story in Nursery World Magazine about whether we should let a child sleep or not if it is against parents wishes.

The Nursery involved are saying that they want to do what the parent says and not let the child sleep...

Ofsted said that the Nursery must go against the parents wishes as they are not meeting the welfare requirements of the child.

It is a dilemma many of us face I think so it is interesting to see Ofsted so specific in their answer...

I suggest you get hold of the story or else print this for if / when the question comes up with parents in the future. :D


Nursery caught in clash between Ofsted and parents

By Melanie Defries, Nursery World, 7 July 2009

A private nursery in Leeds has complained about the difficulty of meeting Ofsted requirements while complying with requests from parents, following an action taken against it by the inspection body for waking a sleeping child.

Staff at Sunbeams nursery, which has 62 children registered, said that they were responding to a request from one child's parents that the child should be distracted from having a late sleep in the afternoon. The parents said that napping in the afternoon meant that the child's sleep pattern was disturbed throughout the night.

Ofsted became involved after an anonymous complaint was made to it that staff at the nursery were not letting children sleep.

Sunbeams staff explained the child's particular circumstances and said that they were following parents' wishes. However, the nursery was given the action because Ofsted said that nursery staff should prioritise the rights of the child rather than requests from parents.

Nursery manager Shelley Briggs told Nursery World, 'This is a common dilemma for nursery nurses. Parent partnership is part of the Early Years Foundation Stage and good practice, but Ofsted would not enter into a debate.

'It's a grey area. We do not want to step on parents' toes, but Ofsted says it is about the rights of the child, and the child needed to sleep. We are going to send a letter out to parents informing them of what has happened and tell them that they will have to contact Ofsted if they want to discuss the issue further. The issue hasn't yet come up again with this particular child, but it will do.'

An Ofsted spokesman said, 'While parents and carers may make a formal request for their child to be exempt from receiving the learning and development requirement of the EYFS, there is no provision for a child to be exempt from the welfare requirements. Providers must meet the welfare requirements at all times. In meeting the welfare requirements, a provider must have effective systems in place to ensure that they meet the individual needs of the child. This includes giving due consideration to the wishes of the child's parents. However, in the event of a conflict between the parent's wishes and the welfare requirements, the provider must put the safeguarding and best interests of the child as the priority.

'We would expect providers to discuss matters such as sleep patterns with parents and to accommodate parental wishes wherever possible, unless these conflict with welfare requirements.'

Early years advisor Dr Maria Robinson said, 'This is a delicate situation and I think that staff need to try to unpick the issue and find out why the child might be waking in the night. There is usually a reason why a child does not want to go to bed. A three-year-old probably still needs a short sleep in the afternoon.'

Tinglesnark
08-07-2009, 12:52 PM
oooh that is interesting and i am sure that most if not all of us would agree with ofsted there....tbh i cant keep charlie (aged 2) awake for love nor money (not that i would try - peace and quiet! haha) - it would be cruel to keep them awake when they need to sleep. i expect that there must be a few parents that dont see the bigger picture eh? x

RainbowMum
08-07-2009, 01:03 PM
Oh Honestly - talk about a nanny state! I stopped my daughter napping in the day from 2yrs old - if she had a nap she would not sleep till well into the evening - it was a matter of her welfare because if she was still awake at 9.30pm then my sanity and therefore her welfare was at stake!! Just because a child is a bit tired does not mean in NEEDS a sleep or that a sleep is in its best interests! If the parents know that the child does not sleep well at night when they have a late nap then it is in the best interest of the child to have a good nights sleep! GRRRRR I could go on but need to go to tesco before I get the rabble from school!

huggableshelly
08-07-2009, 01:20 PM
I had this discussion during my inspection too.

I was meeting the parents needs but not the child's so therefore not meeting the welfare requirements even though the child copes without a sleep and if she is tired then I do let her sleep for a short while.

i was told all children under 5 should take a nap throughout the day ......... no idea how my 4 yr old mindee would respond to that and not bothered to try it either.

pinklady
08-07-2009, 01:34 PM
So we only need to work in partnership with parents when it suits us??

.

georgie456
08-07-2009, 01:35 PM
This is interesting - I have a 20mth mindee whose parents want me to drop naps and he is really struggling. By pick-up he is SO exhausted but they are insistent. Today I have put him down for a sleep because he is just so tired and it's affecting his behaviour with the other children.

The Juggler
08-07-2009, 01:41 PM
Oh Honestly - talk about a nanny state! I stopped my daughter napping in the day from 2yrs old - if she had a nap she would not sleep till well into the evening - it was a matter of her welfare because if she was still awake at 9.30pm then my sanity and therefore her welfare was at stake!! Just because a child is a bit tired does not mean in NEEDS a sleep or that a sleep is in its best interests! If the parents know that the child does not sleep well at night when they have a late nap then it is in the best interest of the child to have a good nights sleep! GRRRRR I could go on but need to go to tesco before I get the rabble from school!



I agree but if child is still in need of sleep there is nothing to stop the child have an early sleep around midday - avoiding bedtime problems but still getting the child a rest. I usually do this by getting children to lie down with book and blanket whether they sleep or not. If they are tired they will nod off.

Tinglesnark
08-07-2009, 01:43 PM
i expect it depends on the children though doesnt it? i look at it from the pov that if a child is tired and needs sleep then it is cruel to deprive them of sleep....there is the flip side, i have next to me now a 2 year old that desperatly needs a sleep but adamantly refuses to go down and he can barely keep his eyes open..when it comes to bed time he is going to be so over tired that he wont be able to relax enough and will wake at least twice. as i said, i think it's totally dependant on the child
x

Daftbat
08-07-2009, 01:43 PM
I think that its interesting but also confusing. Whatever happened to working in partnership with parents? Every child is different and i was under the impression that we should meet the individual needs of children - some of whom do need a sleep in the afternoon, and some who don't.

I think that its far more important to cater to the indvidual rather than a blanket rule and i would not prevent a child from sleeping if they wanted to but i would not just assume that the child requirede a sleep without speaking to the parents about their normal routines, especially if the child was new to the setting.

Blaze
08-07-2009, 01:53 PM
I would be interested on their view on waking children from naps (to do the school run, as an example)....???

flora
08-07-2009, 01:59 PM
hmmm, interesting as you say sarah,

hanny is 3. sometimes she has a nap. other times she doesn't.

i am lucky that if she does have a nap on the school run she will still sleep at around 7.30/pm 8 pm. just a bit later than the normal 7/7.30pm

my 3 yr old mindee however will be up till 10/10.30pm if she get even a five minute power nap.

her mum is ok if i do say she has fallen asleep, but i admit i do try and keep her awake.

the thing is although a sleep may be in the child's best interest in that immediate moment and may mean that staff do not have a grumpy child. in the bigger picture they could be perpetuating a bad sleep routine by allowing that child to sleep?????

am i making sense ???:blush:

not for one minute would i not let tinnies sleep or under 3's. but as said all kids are different and cope better without that sleep than others

Mouse
08-07-2009, 02:05 PM
Early years advisor Dr Maria Robinson said, 'This is a delicate situation and I think that staff need to try to unpick the issue and find out why the child might be waking in the night. There is usually a reason why a child does not want to go to bed. A three-year-old probably still needs a short sleep in the afternoon.'[/COLOR]


I was nodding in agreement till I got to the last bit. Does Dr Maria Robinson really think we're going to 'unpick the issue & find out why the child might be waking in the night' :eek: I think i do enough through the day without having to tackle the child's sleep problems as well!

I do agree with the main point though. I used to mind a little girl who really needed an afternoon sleep. Mum didn't collect her until 6pm, then wanted her home & inbed by 6.45pm! We had quite a battle over it as mum wanted me to keep her daughter awake all day (she was about 2 years old at the time), so that she would go straight to bed when she got home. If she slept in the afternoon, she could easily be awake until 10pm. But without a sleep she would be nodding off in her tea & I didn't dare take her out anywhere in the afternoon as I knew she'd fall asleep in the pushchair.
We eventually came to a compromise whereby I tried to get her to have a sleep in the morning, though of course she wasn't really tired then.

nannysue
08-07-2009, 02:23 PM
I have one fast asleep on the chair now, we were in the middle of sticking and glueing pic of zoo animals ( quess where we are going tomorrow ??) she wanted to get down and the next minute she was sound asleep!!

Princess Sara
08-07-2009, 02:51 PM
We all know every child is different, my ds1 was refusing a nap during the day from about 18 months. I'd have like to see Ofsted try and put him down for a nap back then (he's 5 now) as he would have screamed himself sick. He wouldn't nap in the buggy or car, on a bus, if you blacked the room out, nothing worked so I didn't bother. Whereas I know a 5yo that would happily nap for 3 hours a day if you let her (she's at school so that's not really possible!).

It's all fine and dandy having these requirements, but each childs needs are different and should be treated as such.

I personally wouldn't keep a child awake (anytime before about 5ish). If they're willing to sleep then let them sleep, they're body is telling them what it needs. I do think later in the day past 5ish will interupt a bedtime routeen, but then again what exactly is wrong with a child being up past bedtime at that age? They're still so young, I think alot of people try to fit their child into their routeen, instead of creating a new routeen that suits the child.

Mollymop
08-07-2009, 02:56 PM
I think if a child needs a nap they should be allowed too. If it is only a power nap, about 10 minutes long. Bless them, if they are tired they need to sleep.

flora
08-07-2009, 05:33 PM
I think if a child needs a nap they should be allowed too. If it is only a power nap, about 10 minutes long. Bless them, if they are tired they need to sleep.

thats all very well sandra, and i agree in principle, but if for arguements sake you looked after my dd i wouldn't want to you to let her sleep past 4pm, or have a long sleep in the afternoon. it mucks her bedtime routine up and she is much happier if she has a reg bed time and reg getting up time in the morning.

it knocks her out of kilter if it is mucked around too much. and then she is miserable and grumpy and it's self perpetuating :panic:

my nephew would be up till midnight if you let him sleep at all in the day from about the age of 3.5yrs.

it seems selfish of parents to ask and unfair on the child but sometimes there are two sides and we don't see all of them. :thumbsup:

Twinkles
08-07-2009, 05:54 PM
I used to find my children slept better at night if they'd had an - early- afternoon nap.

I usually try to do an early lunch so the little ones are in bed by 12.30.

I would consider shortening their nap time but I wouldn't agree to depriving them of sleep if they needed it.

When my mindees are growing out of needing a nap we have a ' quiet time' they sit in a chair with a blanket and look at books or watch a dvd.
If they fall asleep they must have needed it .

Mollymop
08-07-2009, 06:08 PM
thats all very well sandra, and i agree in principle, but if for arguements sake you looked after my dd i wouldn't want to you to let her sleep past 4pm, or have a long sleep in the afternoon. it mucks her bedtime routine up and she is much happier if she has a reg bed time and reg getting up time in the morning.

it knocks her out of kilter if it is mucked around too much. and then she is miserable and grumpy and it's self perpetuating :panic:

my nephew would be up till midnight if you let him sleep at all in the day from about the age of 3.5yrs.

it seems selfish of parents to ask and unfair on the child but sometimes there are two sides and we don't see all of them. :thumbsup:

I can understand where you are coming from, I really meant very young children, those under 2. I wouldn't feel comfortable with letting a child sleep at 4pm anyway i can understand that disrupting a childs routine. Like I said 10 minutes - in the day - 4pm is evening to me. I wouldn't go against a parents wishes. If they didnt' want them to nap then I would not put them down for nap time. If they were younger than 2 years, i would have something to say about it though.

flora
08-07-2009, 07:32 PM
I can understand where you are coming from, I really meant very young children, those under 2. I wouldn't feel comfortable with letting a child sleep at 4pm anyway i can understand that disrupting a childs routine. Like I said 10 minutes - in the day - 4pm is evening to me. I wouldn't go against a parents wishes. If they didnt' want them to nap then I would not put them down for nap time. If they were younger than 2 years, i would have something to say about it though.

thats ok then sandra, you can look after hannah if ever i need it :D :clapping:

PixiePetal
08-07-2009, 07:46 PM
I usually try and get the mindees under 3 to have a quiet time after lunch, most sleep then anyway. The just 3 yr old has his dummy and blanket, maybe cbeebies, and usually dozes off bolt upright in the chair.:) so obviously tired.

I don't mind waking them after an hour if parents ask - it is enough for most of them to enjoy the rest of the day and still go to bed at a decent time in the evening.

If they say 'don't let them sleep' it never works as they fall asleep in the car on the way back with parents!

Every child is different and I like to think I can treat them all in a way that suits their needs, not just the parents

Hebs
08-07-2009, 08:09 PM
My mindee C is 2 next month, mum says don't let her sleep but i do :thumbsup:

if she needs a nap she has a nap simple as.

when i have C overnight she still has a nap during the day (usually around 2pm-ish when i leave for the school run) she sleeps for 1hr 20 mins as i wake her up when we go up to my son's school, she has her tea by 6pm a bath then bed again at 7/7.30pm and sleeps ALL night right through until 7.30am.

For mum with or without a nap she will not sleep, she has same bedtime routine (apparently) and screams until around 11pm (have heard her myself) and wakes often through the night, has never slept through the night at home

go figure :rolleyes:

FussyElmo
09-07-2009, 06:53 AM
My mindee C is 2 next month, mum says don't let her sleep but i do :thumbsup:

if she needs a nap she has a nap simple as.

when i have C overnight she still has a nap during the day (usually around 2pm-ish when i leave for the school run) she sleeps for 1hr 20 mins as i wake her up when we go up to my son's school, she has her tea by 6pm a bath then bed again at 7/7.30pm and sleeps ALL night right through until 7.30am.

For mum with or without a nap she will not sleep, she has same bedtime routine (apparently) and screams until around 11pm (have heard her myself) and wakes often through the night, has never slept through the night at home

go figure :rolleyes:

She knows the boundaries at yours. All my children sleep through and the youngest both have sleeps in the day. I also allow my mindee to sleep - mum has asked if I can stop her sleep but by 1.30 she is so miserable and grumpy heaven knows what she is like when she gets home if she hasnt had a sleep.:)

The Juggler
09-07-2009, 10:39 AM
surely when they get that tired, they then fall asleep on the way home, hence having a sleep at 5pm or so which means they will never get them in bed at 7 or whatever.

From experience parents whose children are pickles at bedtime are going to do this regardless.

You know the children who genuinely don't need a sleep and those who do. As long as they are up again by a reasonable time (before 2.30 ish) then surely that' s not going to impact on their night sleeping.

mandy moo
09-07-2009, 01:17 PM
Has'nt this opened a can of worms!
So can we, as childminders be prosecuted then, for not letting children sleep, although the parents may have asked us, specifically, not to let them sleep?

I intrestingly enough had a conversation with my mindees mum yesterday, he (hes 23 mths) sleeps here from approximatley anywhere between 11.30/12.00 for at least 2 hours, and most nights they have problems getting him to sleep.
They have asked me to wake him after an hour/hour and a half depending on the time he goes to sleep!
Do I do let him sleep and wake up naturaly or do as the parents ask and wake him up after an hour/hour and a half?

sarah707
09-07-2009, 05:07 PM
Has'nt this opened a can of worms!
So can we, as childminders be prosecuted then, for not letting children sleep, although the parents may have asked us, specifically, not to let them sleep?

I intrestingly enough had a conversation with my mindees mum yesterday, he (hes 23 mths) sleeps here from approximatley anywhere between 11.30/12.00 for at least 2 hours, and most nights they have problems getting him to sleep.
They have asked me to wake him after an hour/hour and a half depending on the time he goes to sleep!
Do I do let him sleep and wake up naturaly or do as the parents ask and wake him up after an hour/hour and a half?

Not prosecuted as such... but they have had a complaint made against them and when Ofsted came out they upheld that complaint so it will go on their inspection report as an upheld complaint.

Plus they will have to explain that to every new parent who comes through their doors - plus of course tell current parents that they have had a complaint upheld.

It is very tricky to know the line between where we must work with parents and we must ignore them and do what Ofsted / Eyfs tells us.

For example, a parent says their son must not wear a fairy costume but Ofsted says we must let them... a parent says their child should be given sugar drinks and Ofsted says we must have written permission because it is against the healthy living ethos of the Eyfs... a parent now says don't let my child sleep and we have to go against their wishes.

Maybe Ofsted need to give us a list of the things that if parents say we must ignore :rolleyes:

Hebs
09-07-2009, 05:38 PM
i mentioned this to mindees mum today, as i find it very interesting and i agree that a childs NEEDS must come before a parents wishes,

well mum went ballistic :angry: ranting on that if i went against her wishes she'd remove her kids from my care, i told her mindee sleeps if she needs it, she wasn't happy but i explained that a 2 year old can't be expected to fit in with a parents demands, its the other way round espically at not even 2 years old

asked her if she wanted to give me written notice, she looked shocked and said no :rolleyes:

i really wonder why some parents have kids :rolleyes:

Fairydust
09-07-2009, 06:03 PM
I have a note that one of my parents in the daily diary which reads "under no circumstances should you allow *** to sleep. I understand it is difficult when you are in the car doing the school run but *** did not go down to sleep until 11pm last night! If you could give her sweets in the car this would help. Under pain of death DO NOT let her sleep!!" She is 2 years old & so tired one afternoon she fell asleep while standing up at the school holding onto the pram! Is this fair?

Lou
09-07-2009, 06:23 PM
This is an interesting subject, and i can see both points of view.

Of course the needs of the child must come first and your story about the child falling asleep standing up is awful.

But the point surely is that all children are different and have different needs.

My own children never slept during the day after they were 2, but went to bed at 7pm. Children thrive in a routine, and whilst i agree that the needs of the child come first, a routine that is best for the parents also, makes for a much happier family environment.

If i had let my daughter sleep for even a couple of mins when she was past 2 she would have been up until midnight and then i would be tired and stressed out and even more so the next day, by ensuring we had a good routine in place, she was happier and so were the rest of the family. I was obvously lucky enough to be minding at the time so could ensure that his routine was stuck to. She is now 6 and very easy to put to bed withot any arguments (albeit a bit later). I am now a working parent and although this doesnt affect me, i would like to think that if i had been using a minder at the time then i would have been able to ask them to respect my wishes and not let her sleep during the day without ofsted sticking their beaks in!!!!

Having said all that, if a children physically cannot stay awake thats a totally different matter and some children need to sleep until they are older. BUT not all children need to sleep during the day and ofsted need to respect that and the parents wishes.

Hebs
09-07-2009, 06:23 PM
no it's not fair,

maybe copy the article and give it to her :panic: honestly parents :rolleyes:

Hebs
09-07-2009, 06:26 PM
Having said all that, if a children physically cannot stay awake thats a totally different matter and some children need to sleep until they are older. BUT not all children need to sleep during the day and ofsted need to respect that and the parents wishes.


Ofsted are NOT saying a child MUST sleep what they are saying is that IF a child wants to sleep and the parents don't want them to sleep you MUST put the children's needs and not the parents wants first :thumbsup:

Lou
09-07-2009, 06:42 PM
Ofsted are NOT saying a child MUST sleep what they are saying is that IF a child wants to sleep and the parents don't want them to sleep you MUST put the children's needs and not the parents wants first :thumbsup:

If you read the original article, Ofsted say a child of 3 probably needs a sleep in the afternoon. That is not their call to make a judgement like that, it is up to the parents to decide. All children are different.

Hebs
09-07-2009, 06:46 PM
If you read the original article, Ofsted say a child of 3 probably needs a sleep in the afternoon. That is not their call to make a judgement like that, it is up to the parents to decide. All children are different.

if you read it again, they are saying it is the CHILDREN who decide, if they are tired let them sleep, if they don't need a sleep you can't force them too, well i've never known a child to sleep on command :thumbsup:
and "probably" does not mean all :)

Lou
09-07-2009, 06:50 PM
if you read it again, they are saying it is the CHILDREN who decide, if they are tired let them sleep, if they don't need a sleep you can't force them too, well i've never known a child to sleep on command :thumbsup:
and "probably" does not mean all :)

I can read thankyou.

I am 31 and if you put me down in a nice comfy warm bed then i would go to sleep in the afternoon. It doesnt mean to say that i need to!!! As i said before if a child physically cannot stay awake then that is a different matter, but if a parent has requested their child does not sleep to keep them in a routine that suits the child and family then that should be respected.

Hebs
09-07-2009, 06:59 PM
I can read thankyou.

I am 31 and if you put me down in a nice comfy warm bed then i would go to sleep in the afternoon. It doesnt mean to say that i need to!!!

i'm 31 too and can not sleep during the dy neither can my 9 or 12 year old children :D

Lou
09-07-2009, 07:21 PM
i'm 31 too and can not sleep during the dy neither can my 9 or 12 year old children :D

I think you are missing the point.

I am just saying some children, my own included, if they were put to bed, chances are they would go to sleep and then maybe be up until midnight. It is up to the parent to decide when the child drops their day time sleep.
Ofsted know nothing about the child concerned in the article, yet are arguing with the childs own parents and saying that he/she "probably" needs a sleep, even though he/she is waking during the night due to sleeping in the day. Why are we not allowed to parent our own children?

sarah707
09-07-2009, 07:27 PM
Why are we not allowed to parent our own children?

:eek: :eek: :eek:

But how could you possibly know best!?!

You are but a mere parent.

The nanny state is there to do that for you. :phew:

I think you need to relax more and let them take control :p :joker:

Hebs
09-07-2009, 07:28 PM
I think you are missing the point.

I am just saying some children, my own included, if they were put to bed, chances are they would go to sleep and then maybe be up until midnight. It is up to the parent to decide when the child drops their day time sleep.
Ofsted know nothing about the child concerned in the article, yet are arguing with the childs own parents and saying that he/she "probably" needs a sleep, even though he/she is waking during the night due to sleeping in the day. Why are we not allowed to parent our own children?

i think you'll find the child needed to sleep, they woke the child at the parents request which is not meeting the needs of the child

A private nursery in Leeds has complained about the difficulty of meeting Ofsted requirements while complying with requests from parents, following an action taken against it by the inspection body for waking a sleeping child

they have not said ALL children must sleep

Minstrel
09-07-2009, 07:28 PM
I think you are missing the point.

I am just saying some children, my own included, if they were put to bed, chances are they would go to sleep and then maybe be up until midnight. It is up to the parent to decide when the child drops their day time sleep.
Ofsted know nothing about the child concerned in the article, yet are arguing with the childs own parents and saying that he/she "probably" needs a sleep, even though he/she is waking during the night due to sleeping in the day. Why are we not allowed to parent our own children?

My son is a bit like this. He is 3 next week and has not had a daytime in about 8 months. However when he is in the car for a long time he gets bored or the rhythm of the car sends him to sleep. We do all we can to keep him awake, singing songs, games, pointing things out to keep him interested. If I knew he was actually tired because of a long day/ early morning etc then of course i'd let him sleep. I like to think as his mother, who knows him better than anyone else in the world that i would make the right call.

Lou
09-07-2009, 07:29 PM
So true Sarah, silly old me!!!!

I should have known better, now would you mind asking ofsted if its ok if i have a glass of wine please xxx

Hebs
09-07-2009, 07:32 PM
ok then my son is 9, almost 10

he hasn't had a daytime nap since he was 3

he never goes to sleep before midnight unless i medicate him and will be up at 5 or 6am

should i stop as he obviously doesn't need to sleep that much,

would i be in breach of ofsted's regulations :rolleyes:

Lou
09-07-2009, 07:32 PM
i think you'll find the child needed to sleep, they woke the child at the parents request which is not meeting the needs of the child

A private nursery in Leeds has complained about the difficulty of meeting Ofsted requirements while complying with requests from parents, following an action taken against it by the inspection body for waking a sleeping child

they have not said ALL children must sleep

No they have said they are not to wake the child even though his parents have asked him not to sleep, and all they can say is he "probably" needs a sleep when they know nothing about him or his life or his routine or his parents.

It is NOT their call to make that descision and if was the parent and i asked for my child not to sleep during the day and a nursery or childminder ignored my request i would take my child out of the setting immedietly.

manjay
09-07-2009, 07:32 PM
My son is a bit like this. He is 3 next week and has not had a daytime in about 8 months. However when he is in the car for a long time he gets bored or the rhythm of the car sends him to sleep. We do all we can to keep him awake, singing songs, games, pointing things out to keep him interested. If I knew he was actually tired because of a long day/ early morning etc then of course i'd let him sleep. I like to think as his mother, who knows him better than anyone else in the world that i would make the right call.

I would like to think this too for my own children. Unfortunately I am not convinced all parents are like this:( I have very strong feelings on this subject but for me this is not the right place for me to air them iyswim:rolleyes:

Hebs
09-07-2009, 07:36 PM
No they have said they are not to wake the child even though his parents have asked him not to sleep, and all they can say is he "probably" needs a sleep when they know nothing about him or his life or his routine or his parents.

It is NOT their call to make that descision and if was the parent and i asked for my child not to sleep during the day and a nursery or childminder ignored my request i would take my child out of the setting immedietly.

so you'd have to give up work cos all settings have to follow the same guidelines :D

you say it's not ofsteds call but it's not the parents either as to potentially make a child suffer to suit a parents wishes is soooooooooooo wrong.

the child is the most important factor here, if a parent can't see it this way then maybe they souldn't have had kids, cos not all children sleep well at night for various reasons, regardless of wether they have day time naps.

Lou
09-07-2009, 07:38 PM
so you'd have to give up work cos all settings have to follow the same guidelines :D

you say it's not ofsteds call but it's not the parents either as to potentially make a child suffer to suit a parents wishes is soooooooooooo wrong.

the child is the most important factor here, if a parent can't see it this way then maybe they souldn't have had kids, cos not all children sleep well at night for various reasons, regardless of wether they have day time naps.

There is absoulutly no mention whatsoever of the child suffering, and i resent the suggestion that i would be ok with that.

I will not post on this matter any more since you are clearly trying to start an argument whilst constantly contradicting yourself.

sarah707
09-07-2009, 07:41 PM
So true Sarah, silly old me!!!!

I should have known better, now would you mind asking ofsted if its ok if i have a glass of wine please xxx

Principle 1.2, Inclusion says if you're having one then you need to make sure we all have one too :D

Hebs
09-07-2009, 07:43 PM
There is absoulutly no mention whatsoever of the child suffering, and i resent the suggestion that i would be ok with that.

I will not post on this matter any more since you are clearly trying to start an argument whilst constantly contradicting yourself.

to stop them sleeping if they need it means they are suffering
and no i'm not contradicting myself :D

Pauline
09-07-2009, 07:59 PM
Please don't spoil a very interesting debate by falling out girls.:(

I know you both feel very strongly but hearing everyone's views without unpleasantness is what makes this Forum so special, falling out can lead to bad feelings in the future.

:)

Mollymop
09-07-2009, 08:29 PM
i'm 31 too and can not sleep during the dy neither can my 9 or 12 year old children :D

Oh gawd help me!! I am 29 and I can sleep anytime, any place, any how. I love my sleep. :laughing: Yawwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnn

ORKSIE
09-07-2009, 08:55 PM
So far I have been very lucky, my parents have said, If their child wants to sleep then so be it, what ever time of day. I'm sure I will come across a parent one day who does not want their child to sleep past a certain time or for what ever length of time. :)

RainbowMum
09-07-2009, 09:05 PM
I think what this thread shows is that just as every child is unique -every family is also unique! I think there is a big difference between distracting a child who gets a bit tired in the afternoon and would easily fall asleep if left to it and physically keeping awake a child who is dog tired and obviously needs to sleep. I personally, as a child care proffessional, hope to be able to tell the difference between a concerned parent who has their child's best interest at heart and a pushy parent who wants to be sure they can sit down for the soaps in time!

I do not think it is the place of Ofsted to dictate whether a child is in real need of a sleep or whether they are just easy sleepers! And yes - I do think there is such a thing as an easy sleeper - my own hubby can fall asleep on the edge of a coin! If he sits down for more than 5 mins when he gets home he will nod off and yes - he will then be a right pain at bedtime because he is not tired enough to sleep so do all I can to ensure he does not have that nap!:laughing:

Hebs
09-07-2009, 09:06 PM
Oh gawd help me!! I am 29 and I can sleep anytime, any place, any how. I love my sleep. :laughing: Yawwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnn

i can't even get back to sleep once i'm awake in the morning :panic:

wake up at 5am and thats it :mad: drives me potty
but then again my son has to have melatonin to get him to sleep as he can happily go with as little as 2 or 3 hours sleep A NIGHT :eek:

Trouble
09-07-2009, 09:08 PM
Oh gawd help me!! I am 29 and I can sleep anytime, any place, any how. I love my sleep. :laughing: Yawwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnn

thats the barcadi love:D :clapping: :clapping:

Mollymop
09-07-2009, 09:20 PM
thats the barcadi love:D :clapping: :clapping:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Probably not wrong there

Trouble
09-07-2009, 09:21 PM
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Probably not wrong there

whos harry???

Mollymop
09-07-2009, 09:21 PM
i can't even get back to sleep once i'm awake in the morning :panic:

wake up at 5am and thats it :mad: drives me potty
but then again my son has to have melatonin to get him to sleep as he can happily go with as little as 2 or 3 hours sleep A NIGHT :eek:

I have a son like that. He has never been able to sleep properly, especially in the summer ( light nights and mornings). He is still awake now - he will be awake before 6 tomorrow am. I feel for him. He is so frustrated. x

Mollymop
09-07-2009, 09:22 PM
whos harry???

Don't mess about Di!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fairydust
09-07-2009, 09:22 PM
I have the day off tomorrow so I will be having a LONG LIE!! My own children are 12 & 15 and are excited as they will get long lies too!! Yippee!! :clapping: We are going to watch Marley & Me and go for a bar lunch - cant wait as it has been an exhausting week!

Hebs
09-07-2009, 09:32 PM
I have a son like that. He has never been able to sleep properly, especially in the summer ( light nights and mornings). He is still awake now - he will be awake before 6 tomorrow am. I feel for him. He is so frustrated. x

yeah my son is still awake now, which means I can't go to sleep either as he has ADHD and gets up to no good if he knows i'm asleep

but I suffer it as I don't like medicating him all the time :( , as long as he isn't disturbing his sister and she can sleep I can tolerate it a little bit better.

I hate the light nights, but don't mind the light mornings,
but what I hate even more is the fact that he can now tell the time so I can't fob him off to bed a bit earlier in the winter :blush:
can't even change the clocks cos he checks the time on the sky tv or the internet :laughing:

Mollymop
09-07-2009, 09:41 PM
Don't mess about Di!!!!!!!!!!!!

HARRY POTTER!!! :laughing: :clapping:

Mollymop
09-07-2009, 09:43 PM
yeah my son is still awake now, which means I can't go to sleep either as he has ADHD and gets up to no good if he knows i'm asleep

but I suffer it as I don't like medicating him all the time :( , as long as he isn't disturbing his sister and she can sleep I can tolerate it a little bit better.

I hate the light nights, but don't mind the light mornings,
but what I hate even more is the fact that he can now tell the time so I can't fob him off to bed a bit earlier in the winter :blush:
can't even change the clocks cos he checks the time on the sky tv or the internet :laughing:

Bless him. I have had my son under the doc for ADD and Aspergers, they started peeing me off quite abit, been over 3 years csince they have been investigating. Saying he hasn't enough hyperactivity, etc, etc. It annoyes me. I just ry and get on with it on my own now. he is better now he is older (10), but still can't sleep well or concentrate.

Hebs
09-07-2009, 09:46 PM
my son is also almost 10

took 3 years for a daignosis for him too :panic:
i'd happily give up the ADHD meds but not the Melatonin :laughing: it's been a god send, i tend to guage how hyper he is as to when to give it to him, or if he has a big test or school outing i always make sure he's had the melatonin to ensure he's had a good sleep (as it doesn't give them a drugged groggy sleep!!!)

IamJen
09-07-2009, 09:47 PM
There seems to be a lot of discussion about the child "needing" sleep. Without being there at the nursery, I'm can't be sure that this isn't the case. However, it's also possible that the kiddo just likes to sleep, and would do so more than he needs physiologically. All humans (even preschoolers) have the ability to indulge themselves in our basic needs like food and sleep. Just because the child *will* sleep doesn't necessarily mean that he *needs* sleep.

Does it say somewhere how old this little one is?

Also, it's clearly not good for a child to be up at all hours of the night, so if the long afternoon naps were causing trouble at bedtime, then the parents have just as much right to be concerned about the "welfare" of the child then as in the afternoon. We'd need a lot more details (including things like a sleep history of the child, what their bedtime routine is, etc. etc.) before being able to make some sort of decision about the influence of naps on their night time sleep, though. However, I have had children (ages 3-6) in my care for whom the afternoon sleep was the catalyst for night time troubles. I had no problem waking the children after they'd had a certain amount of sleep. (usually an hour). We did it gently and the kids could get up off their beds and read books/quiet play for awhile whilst the other ones slept.

Lou
09-07-2009, 11:48 PM
There seems to be a lot of discussion about the child "needing" sleep. Without being there at the nursery, I'm can't be sure that this isn't the case. However, it's also possible that the kiddo just likes to sleep, and would do so more than he needs physiologically. All humans (even preschoolers) have the ability to indulge themselves in our basic needs like food and sleep. Just because the child *will* sleep doesn't necessarily mean that he *needs* sleep.

Does it say somewhere how old this little one is?

Also, it's clearly not good for a child to be up at all hours of the night, so if the long afternoon naps were causing trouble at bedtime, then the parents have just as much right to be concerned about the "welfare" of the child then as in the afternoon. We'd need a lot more details (including things like a sleep history of the child, what their bedtime routine is, etc. etc.) before being able to make some sort of decision about the influence of naps on their night time sleep, though. However, I have had children (ages 3-6) in my care for whom the afternoon sleep was the catalyst for night time troubles. I had no problem waking the children after they'd had a certain amount of sleep. (usually an hour). We did it gently and the kids could get up off their beds and read books/quiet play for awhile whilst the other ones slept.

i would just like to say thankyou. you ave explained my feelings far more clearly than i could have tried to!!

sorry Pauline, i will apologise but i felt like an argument was being caused and since i have felt like this many times before i could no longer bite my tongue.

rest assured i will shut up now.

Pauline
10-07-2009, 06:14 AM
sorry Pauline, i will apologise but i felt like an argument was being caused and since i have felt like this many times before i could no longer bite my tongue.

rest assured i will shut up now.

Lou I don't want anyone to shut up, or apologise for that matter. All I was doing was trying to calm things before something was said that was later regretted. We all get heated when we feel strongly about something and that is fine. :)

Tatia
10-07-2009, 06:30 AM
I forfeited my DDs afternoon nap when she was 2 (and oh how I looooved her nap time!) but I did it in her best interest. She just would not settle at night and sleep decently if she had a nap during the day. Once we had given it up, she went to sleep like a dream at 7:30 every evening and slept til at least 7 the next morning. That 11.5 hours of uninterrupted sleep, I feel, were far more important to her than a nap in the afternoon. I didn't force her to stay awake and we did have a rest time where we snuggled with a book but that was it. And if anyone had gone against my wishes, had I needed to put her in childcare, I'd have removed her from the setting in a heartbeat and complained to OFSTED about the provider's lack of willingness to view me as the most important person in my child's life (as so heavily stressed in ECM and EYFS).

Then again, I am a well-informed parent who made the decision for the right reason, not just so I could bung my daughter off to bed as soon as I could after getting home from work. Unless OFTED interviewed the parents of the child concerned at this nursery to ascertain their reasons, they have no right to make blanket judgements!:censored:

Pipsqueak
11-07-2009, 08:08 AM
Thats an interesting article Sarah, and a subsequent interesting debate.

Going on my parental experience, my eldest had a daytime nap till he was 3.5 years and he still slept soundly at night - as have all my kids, although Rob has always been an early riser. Harry could sleep for England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland combined - he loves his sleep/bed/blankie (he is 8 now) but he stopped his own daytime naps at the age of 18 months- James has been the 'problem' sleeper - although he still does his 12 hours nighttime sleep.

Now my opinion is that if a child is tired then they need a sleep and I do think its wrong to deprive a child of sleep - after all sleep deprivation is considered a form of torture. Now thats not to say that if we stop a child from having a nap its torture, we do have to consider the parental wishes and the the parent knows best.
I have 2 children who often come to me in the mornings - yawning their heads of and ready for a sleep by 10am - generally because they went to bed late/didn't sleep and thats not because they had a nap in the daytime - its because parent kept them up late because they were at a friends/didn't have dinner till late/went shopping blah blah blah. But its ok - cause the child can be miserable and crabby cause they are with me and not the parent!!:rolleyes: I have always tried hard to compromise with the parent - saying I will allow the child to have an earlier sleep in the daytime or if the child falls asleep later in the after noon then I will wake them after half an hour power nap.

There was one child I cared for (the CFH with the PFH) who insisted their LO didn't have a sleep because her night time routine went to pot - ok I went along with that at first but the child was still having probs in at night and becoming worse and worse during the day, so i resorted to letting her have an hours sleep without telling the parents (rightly or wrongly) and funnily enough the parents started reporting she was sleeping better at night (wonder if that was because she wasn't overtired????:rolleyes: ) ......:rolleyes:

We all know what its like as an adult to be so dog tired that we don't know what to do with ourselves and take it out on those around us - but at least as an adult we can deal with those feelings, a small child has difficulty in dealing with that.

Hebs
11-07-2009, 08:57 AM
Thats an interesting article Sarah, and a subsequent interesting debate.

Going on my parental experience, my eldest had a daytime nap till he was 3.5 years and he still slept soundly at night - as have all my kids, although Rob has always been an early riser. Harry could sleep for England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland combined - he loves his sleep/bed/blankie (he is 8 now) but he stopped his own daytime naps at the age of 18 months- James has been the 'problem' sleeper - although he still does his 12 hours nighttime sleep.

Now my opinion is that if a child is tired then they need a sleep and I do think its wrong to deprive a child of sleep - after all sleep deprivation is considered a form of torture. Now thats not to say that if we stop a child from having a nap its torture, we do have to consider the parental wishes and the the parent knows best.
I have 2 children who often come to me in the mornings - yawning their heads of and ready for a sleep by 10am - generally because they went to bed late/didn't sleep and thats not because they had a nap in the daytime - its because parent kept them up late because they were at a friends/didn't have dinner till late/went shopping blah blah blah. But its ok - cause the child can be miserable and crabby cause they are with me and not the parent!!:rolleyes: I have always tried hard to compromise with the parent - saying I will allow the child to have an earlier sleep in the daytime or if the child falls asleep later in the after noon then I will wake them after half an hour power nap.

There was one child I cared for (the CFH with the PFH) who insisted their LO didn't have a sleep because her night time routine went to pot - ok I went along with that at first but the child was still having probs in at night and becoming worse and worse during the day, so i resorted to letting her have an hours sleep without telling the parents (rightly or wrongly) and funnily enough the parents started reporting she was sleeping better at night (wonder if that was because she wasn't overtired????:rolleyes: ) ......:rolleyes:

We all know what its like as an adult to be so dog tired that we don't know what to do with ourselves and take it out on those around us - but at least as an adult we can deal with those feelings, a small child has difficulty in dealing with that.


you worded that so much better than i did

did anyone else find that their Lo dropped their daytime naps but it restarted when they first started nursery??
nursery used to whipe my son out, anf for the first few weeks returned to having a nap after morning nursery

angeldelight
11-07-2009, 08:59 AM
you worded that so much better than i did

did anyone else find that their Lo dropped their daytime naps but it restarted when they first started nursery??
nursery used to whipe my son out, anf for the first few weeks returned to having a nap after morning nursery

Yes my grandson is the same

He had not been napping for ages but since he went to nursery he is shattered and falls asleep once he gets home

Angel xx

mandy moo
12-07-2009, 09:53 AM
you worded that so much better than i did

did anyone else find that their Lo dropped their daytime naps but it restarted when they first started nursery??
nursery used to whipe my son out, anf for the first few weeks returned to having a nap after morning nursery


My eldest didnt drop his 'just after lunch' nap until he was in Reception class,
My youngest however dropped it completly when he started nursery at 4.

RainbowMum
12-07-2009, 11:19 AM
On the other hand there are the children who desperately need a sleep but wont! I have a boy just turned 3 who attends playgroup in the mornings, when he comes out he is so tired and grumpy he is very hard work. He has never gone down to sleep in a bed in the day - athome he would fall asleep where he was playing! At mine I have always taken him for a short walk in the buggy andthat was enough to send him off. When he 1st started pre school he would drop off on the walk home, now how ever he does what eve he can to keep himself awake - chatting loudly, pulling about on bumper bar etc. On the rare occasion he does nave a nap he is a delight after but without it he is very difficult. His night sleep does not change wether he has the nap or not. Dont know how Ofsted suggest I get him to have a sleep when he so obviously needs it - other than driving for miles which is not practical with others to look after as well!

I still think it must be looked at on an individual basis - a blanket rule is very unfair.

IamJen
12-07-2009, 03:49 PM
RM...Is there a place where you can put your stubborn sleeper (safely) by himself for awhile? A bedroom with a mat on the floor, and maybe a cuddle toy/blanket? If he'll stay in there, I think it's okay for him to chat, sing, etc. Even if he doesn't sleep, he may get some time to "chill". :)

RainbowMum
12-07-2009, 04:46 PM
Unfortunately not but thanks for the suggestion - his mum has just texted me notice anyway:rolleyes: I was expecting it as she is pregnant & moving but it would have been nice to have it to my face :rolleyes: so only have to deal with it for 4 more weeks:thumbsup:

Hebs
12-07-2009, 04:52 PM
Unfortunately not but thanks for the suggestion - his mum has just texted me notice anyway:rolleyes: I was expecting it as she is pregnant & moving but it would have been nice to have it to my face :rolleyes: so only have to deal with it for 4 more weeks:thumbsup:

ah the joys of modern technology :rolleyes: :panic: