View Full Version : Really confused re: Rising 5's under EYFS

18-06-2009, 05:57 PM
Please can someone clarify (again) the current thinking on Rising 5's under EYFS regulations.

I know that 4 years olds in 10 full sessions per week can be classed as 5 - 8 category for the purposes of Before and After school times.

However, where does a Childminder stand currently when caring for the same child during school holiday breaks? I read on another forum that for holiday times/PD Days/school closure days etc, that Rising 5-s cannot be classed as age 5.

Also, the last of my 4 children will actually turn 5 on Sept 13th. Therefore, for before and after school, I can count her as age 5, (as she WILL be age 5) but for times such as school holiday breaks, do I then need to shunt her backwards into the Early Years category until she is a fortnight away from her 6th birthday????!!!!! (ie. the August 31st ruling???) even though she is actually age 5??

I am totally confused about this, as - it seems, are many of our local childminders.

I do need to work the school holidays for some, but not all, of my mindees, and I really need this clarifying before getting into bother for something I feel is very unclear.

Please can someone advise, otherwise I will need to contact Ofsted as I don't want to be 'caught out' for doing something I am unaware I am doing wrong.

18-06-2009, 06:25 PM
Once a child is classed as 5 they are 5 all the time... holidays, inset days, term time etc.

I have this in writing from the Directorate.

If your own children reach 10 sessions full time school then you need to get your certificate changed :D

18-06-2009, 09:09 PM
Sarah thanks so much for replying so quickly. So I assume that for this summer hols I will still have a problem because one of my minded children only turns 4 in July 09, but although she will have just left nursery at the end of term, she has not quite started reception - these children are sort of in limbo too really ... But from September 09 onwards when she begins reception, the holiday periods onwards, it should be ok to class her as 5.

We also have the problem locally of the very youngest end of the new school year (as 2 of my mindees are), are being staggered in for the first half term meaning that they are to attend morning school as reception children, have their lunch at school, and be collected by 1 pm and taken home as they are deemed too little to manage a full day. This will go on for at least 6 weeks.

In the meantime however, many of us have agreed to take on other children for the September start (thinking these reception starters places are then freed up completely). We now find, following a recent school meeting, that we are going to be needed just for the afternoons for these children, thus making us over our numbers .... these children are again in limbo for a while ... Are they classed as in 10 full time sessions per week, when they are being made to come home at 1 pm each day ??

Very difficult for childminders, parents, grandparents etc - all who become involved.

Do you have any advice on this issue at all Sarah (or anyone)? And, would it be at all possible to somehow forward or post a copy of the letter you have from the directorate, as many other minders in our area would be interested to see it. Would that be at all possible?? Thanks again for your help on this.

19-06-2009, 07:04 AM
You are right, until the child is in full time school (especially relevant when they are messing about with 1/2 days) you are over your numbers if you replace them.

The only way round it is to get a variation for continuity of care.

I would apply soon though, I expect they will be inundated!!

Here's the letter, hope it helps! :D


Thank you for your e-mail.

The old category of children under five will be replaced by the new younger years age group (children aged from birth to the 31st of August following their fifth birthday).

Ratios will need to be applied to this new age range. However you can continue to apply rising fives to allow children to be counted as older than the younger years age group for the purposes of ratios when they attend at least ten early education sessions a week.

Please see below for the relevant requirement as stated in the statutory framework document appendix 2:

'Each childminder may care for:

• a maximum of six children under the age of eight;

• of these six children, a maximum of three may be young children (birth to the 31st of august following his/her 5th birthday) however where four- and five-year-old children only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult:child ratio;

• normally, no more than one child may be under the age of one, however a childminder may be registered to care for two children under the age of one where they are able to demonstrate that they can meet and reconcile the individual needs of all the children being cared for.

• Exceptions to these ratios can be made for siblings and to provide continuity of care in certain

• circumstances approved by Ofsted, provided that the total number of children under the age of eight being cared for does not exceed six.

• If a childminder either employs an assistant or works with another childminder, the above numbers apply to each of these individuals in addition to the childminder.'

Also note extended ratios due to assistants can also be continued but again will refer to children from birth to the 31st of august following their 5th birthday rather than the previous band of under 5s (see final point above).
Again rising fives can be applied to these ratios.

We have received confirmation from the Department for Children, Schools and Families that the change in wording does not result in a change in the legal requirement. Reference is made to children attending the childminding setting before and after the school day only to specify which children may be counted as five. Therefore, the EYFS does not prevent four and five year olds who attend school full time from being counted as over fives during the school holidays.

I hope the information I have provided will be of some assistance to you. If you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us.

Regards, Kerry Smith, Customer Service Advisor
Ofsted - National Business Unit
TEL: 08456 404040

Chatterbox Childcare
19-06-2009, 09:38 AM
If you haven't already got it on your certificate you need to get permission to have extra numbers in your Early Years Register as the children at school in Reception are still under that register.

Ofsted give this out freely and are adding it to certificates as standard now.

19-06-2009, 11:32 AM
Sarah, thanks so much for providing a copy of this letter. That has really reassured me and I will make sure that the others I see regularly see a copy of it also.

Thanks again for getting back to me so quickly (and for help from other members also).

Why, if Ofsted are changing rules and regulations around, are they not informing the group of people it applies to directly - and on a regular basis? We don't seem to be privvy to a lot of information, and have to rely on good, informative forums such as this. Thank goodness you were here!!

Very grateful to you. You seem to be such a well organised, super on-the-ball person!! Thank you for your time.