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acorns
26-01-2009, 01:36 PM
I have a 7 month old who has never slept in a cot (sleeps in parents bed all the time:eek: ). The only place he sleeps at mine is either rocked off to sleep in my arms which I don't do often as he is over 10kg or put in the pushchair, laid right back and either taken in the garden, wrapped up of course, or placed next to the dishwasher. He sleeps for 2 - 3 hours in the pushchair His Mum is happy with him sleeping wherever he will sleep, I'm happy as long as he is & if he's gone to sleep in the garden I bring him in when asleep and unwrap him as much as I can without too much disturbance.

I know Ofsted prefer them to sleep in a cot but he doesn't, I think it's between me, him and his Mum where he sleeps. My network co ordinator seem to think I should get him sleeping in a cot, but he doesn't at home and cries the minute I hover him over the cot!! It's seems unneccessary upset to use the cot when it's working well for us at the moment

Pudding Girl
26-01-2009, 01:38 PM
My 10mo sleeps in the pram, I have a travel cot but he will not settle in it - although he'll have to sooner or later as won't fit in the pram any more!!

I think as long as it's whats best for the baby and you and Mum are happy, I'd suggest that Ofsted go swing ;) Maybe get a permission slip done just in case?

sarah707
26-01-2009, 02:22 PM
The problem with children sleeping in car seats / pushchairs etc is that if they are sitting upright, their lungs constrict and they cannot breathe properly. It can cause severe respiratory problems. That is why inspectors are against it.

Here is an American study. there are others too

http://www.idph.state.ia.us/hcci/common/pdf/sleep_positioning.pdf

http://adc.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/71/6/497

Lack of supervision is also considered an issue, so show how you monitor baby while sleeping in the pushchair.

However, if you have a risk assessment in place showing that you understand the risks and always lay him flat... plus you have a signature from parents saying that's their preference, then you're covered.

Hth :D

rickysmiths
26-01-2009, 02:38 PM
I had an 8mth old start with me last April. Also only sleeps in mum and dads bed , mum told me he would only fall asleep in my arms!!!!! I explained to her that with 2 or 3 other children in my care and could not do that all the time.

I told her I would sleep him in the buggy in the same room as me and see how we go, she was more than happy with this. For the first week I had to rock him to sleep and then put him in the garden the other side of the glass doors so I could see him all the time. Then he fell asleep on his own.

Now I am firm believer in cot sleeping in their own rooms (Ihave a 5mth, The now 15mth and a 3yr old all asleep upstairs at the moment).

The baby took 2 weeks with me and then he was in a cot. I took some photos to show mum because she couldnt believe it. He sleeps for at least 11/2hrs and usually 2hrs! No problem at all it is part of his routine with me and my expectation of him.

It must be said though, at home he is still in bed with mum and dad!!!

marion123
26-01-2009, 06:25 PM
my 10 months old sleeps in pram wont sleep in cot so mum told me to let him i go a letter from her and signed when ofsted came last yr they were fine with the letter

Twinkles
26-01-2009, 06:39 PM
The problem with children sleeping in car seats / pushchairs etc is that if they are sitting upright, their lungs constrict and they cannot breathe properly. It can cause severe respiratory problems. That is why inspectors are against it.

Here is an American study. there are others too

http://www.idph.state.ia.us/hcci/common/pdf/sleep_positioning.pdf

http://adc.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/71/6/497

Lack of supervision is also considered an issue, so show how you monitor baby while sleeping in the pushchair.

However, if you have a risk assessment in place showing that you understand the risks and always lay him flat... plus you have a signature from parents saying that's their preference, then you're covered.

Hth :D

OMG Sarah , scary reading :eek: I remember a few years ago i had a very prem foster baby who caught a cold and was finding breathing a bit of a struggle. At the suggestion of the GP I slept him in his car seat to help him breathe easier :panic:
That article just made my blood run cold.

Chatterbox Childcare
26-01-2009, 06:57 PM
My health visitor told me to put my son in a pushchair years ago. All my mindees go out now too, wrapped up warm and covered in case of rain. The fresh air is good for them but they are laid flat.

Lincsminder
26-01-2009, 07:32 PM
Hey there is nothing wrong with babies sleeping with their parents, mine have all slept with me until they were big enough to go into their own beds at about 2+. They also have been able to sleep anywhere during the day they napped on the sette, floor, beanbag or pram.

childmind04
26-01-2009, 08:54 PM
I just do not have room for a cot and have always explained to ofsted where they sleep, my phil and ted lies totally flat anyway so not so much a problem but one of my mindees always falls asleep on way home and his mums pram does not lie flat :eek:

May pass this onto her!!!

sarah707
26-01-2009, 08:56 PM
Hey there is nothing wrong with babies sleeping with their parents, mine have all slept with me until they were big enough to go into their own beds at about 2+. They also have been able to sleep anywhere during the day they napped on the sette, floor, beanbag or pram.

I totally agree you can do exactly what you want with your own children.

With other people's children we must follow health and safety advice...

Sofas are a no no because of the risk of children getting stuck in cushions and not being able to breathe... same with beanbags.

Prams are fine if their backs are supported - and so are buggies, again if they are properly supported but only with written permission from parents.

Putting them on beds is absolutely no no because of the risk of rolling.

The Eyfs also states that they must have clean bedding, so the carpet is out. It must be a mattress with a sheet, individually cleaned for the child. If the child has allergies take advice from parents before using washing powder etc.

Hope this clarifies :D

rickysmiths
26-01-2009, 09:28 PM
I totally agree you can do exactly what you want with your own children.

With other people's children we must follow health and safety advice...

Sofas are a no no because of the risk of children getting stuck in cushions and not being able to breathe... same with beanbags.

Prams are fine if their backs are supported - and so are buggies, again if they are properly supported but only with written permission from parents.

Putting them on beds is absolutely no no because of the risk of rolling.

The Eyfs also states that they must have clean bedding, so the carpet is out. It must be a mattress with a sheet, individually cleaned for the child. If the child has allergies take advice from parents before using washing powder etc.

Hope this clarifies :D

I dont understand the rolling on beds bit? I dont use a bed now but when I lived in a flat I did. It had a proper fittng mattress, clean sheets and a bed guard and I had a two year old who slept well and soundly.

Both my own children were in adult size single beds by the time they were 20 and 22mths, we couldnt afford to buy multiple beds in various sizes!!! They never looked back, they were warm and cosy and were guarded from falling out. My daughter was in a top bunk just short of her 4th birthday. We had no choice, we didnt have room for two single beds so they had to share a bunk bed.

When Ofsted inspected me last Jan they registered all 4 bedrooms in my house and were happy for the spare room bed to be used for the correct age child. All the children have a seperate set of sheets blankets and towels that they use.

sarah707
26-01-2009, 09:42 PM
When Ofsted inspected me last Jan they registered all 4 bedrooms in my house and were happy for the spare room bed to be used for the correct age child. .

We have to be really careful that the advice we give is generic to lots of different childminders in different situations who have Ofsted inspectors with their own agendas.

I agree with you, using a bed guard and for the correct age child, putting a child in a bed with clean bedding, provided for their individual use, is not a problem.

However, if we give blanket advice that children can be put into beds you can guarantee someone somewhere will put a baby or small child in a bed, the baby or small child will choose that day to learn to shuffle downwards and there is potential for him to get trapped in the bedding.

Or the baby or small child will shuffle past the bed guard and roll out... or someone will pop a baby or small child in the middle of their double bed, just for a moment while they go to the loo and they will roll off.

Using beds for babies and small children is not following good practice advice - page 21 of the Eyfs says...

3.34 Providers should take into account Department of Health advice on reducing the risk of cot death which is available at: www.dh.gov.uk

That advice is here -

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_4123625

And it clearly says to guard against cot death, babies and small children must be put to sleep with feet at the bottom... which is very difficult to do in a bed.

Do you see the problem?

acorns
26-01-2009, 10:02 PM
OMG - I'm really scared now after reading that. Problem is though that with all the crying he'll make about the cot my own dd will not be able to sleep. I've already tried it. It's seems that as long as they are sleeping flat and not semi/fully upright & harness is adjusted correctly the position is ok. I think i'll do a risk assessment and get parental permission to cover it - thanks everyone

berkschick
26-01-2009, 10:22 PM
Can you transfer him to the cot once asleep?

This is what I had to do with one of my mindees and now she is the best sleeper I have!

I had to rock her to sleep in the buggy. Then I used to transfer her to the travel cot. Then I used to almost rock her to sleep and transfer her and now I just chuck her in (not literally!) give her her comforter and shut the door. 2 hours later she wakes up!

acorns
26-01-2009, 10:46 PM
On the rare occasion when I have got him in the cot (after ages settling, lots of crying) , he only sleeps for an hour and wakes up really irritable but wont go back to sleep. In the pushchair he'll go off quickly and sleeps for 2/3 hours at least and wakes up a happy bunny. So from his point of view I know where he'd rather be:)

sarahstanbridge
26-01-2009, 10:52 PM
when i had my inspection last year, i let a child sleep in a buggy. it was put on my report as a action to get written signed permission from parents to allow child to sleep in a pram/buggy which i now do.

Dragonfly
27-01-2009, 08:05 AM
I use a travel cot, laid back push chair and the sofa all were fine with ofsted.its common sense none of them are wrong.

Lincsminder
27-01-2009, 05:38 PM
Sofas are a no no because of the risk of children getting stuck in cushions and not being able to breathe... same with beanbags.

Mine isnt that kind of sofa it is flat and is fine for a toddler to sleep on also my bean bags are half empty and I fold them under itself which makes it quite hard, they couldnt suffocate on it (bit hard to explain with out a picture) Also I would be with them as it is in the front room where I am

Putting them on beds is absolutely no no because of the risk of rolling.
Again fine for a toddler but not a young baby

The Eyfs also states that they must have clean bedding, so the carpet is out.
Again if a toddler fell asleep on the floor I prob wouldnt move them

mushpea
27-01-2009, 07:08 PM
all of mine have slept in the buggy, we even go out for a 'fall asleep walk' with the dog in the afternoons, partly so the dog gets out and mainly so the youngsters sleep, they are laid flat with lots of bedding and are left to sleep in the garden in front of glass doors so i can see them. ofsted in my area (essex) was fine with this and even agreed that the fresh air was probably better for them!
as for the 3yrold (only have double buggy) if shes tired she crashes on the sofa whilst watching cbeebies:blush: this is simply because when the other two are asleep she has quiet time with the tv whilst i write up the diarys. i then put a blanket over her again ofsted is fine with this in my area can't vouch for othrs though.

berkschick
27-01-2009, 08:10 PM
When I had my inspection, my inspector was very hot on wanting the children in a cot with clean bedding.

This suits me fine as I prefer it this way too. They get a better sleep in my opinion but that could just be the kids I have at the moment.

I have 3 travel cots and all the kids use these with their own bedding etc.

Schnakes
28-01-2009, 08:26 AM
I also use the buggies for sleeping. I have a Phil and Teds which lies completely flat.

My friend puts the children in the buggy in the garden. The children do sleep, but I wouldnt do it myself. I wouldnt want to sleep in the garden so I wouldnt do it to the children!! Not saying theres anything wrong with it..just personal preference.

Sx

HomefromHome
28-01-2009, 08:53 AM
The problem with children sleeping in car seats / pushchairs etc is that if they are sitting upright, their lungs constrict and they cannot breathe properly. It can cause severe respiratory problems. That is why inspectors are against it.

Here is an American study. there are others too

http://www.idph.state.ia.us/hcci/common/pdf/sleep_positioning.pdf

http://adc.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/71/6/497

Lack of supervision is also considered an issue, so show how you monitor baby while sleeping in the pushchair.

However, if you have a risk assessment in place showing that you understand the risks and always lay him flat... plus you have a signature from parents saying that's their preference, then you're covered.

Hth :D

these blimmin car seats!!! travel systems should be banned!!!! the amount of people who have newborns/young babies in car seats in the buggy!! there are recommendations/warnings on them that children should not be in them for more than 2 hrs!!!!! THEY ARE CAR SEATS. i had a t/s but always laid dd flat in the buggy with the straps done up over her and the blankets (she was tiny!!) i used it like a pram til she was about 6 mths then slowly raised her as she grew.
i have just recommended to one of my mum's about this (just had a baby - 10 yrs since last one!) and explained all this - she too now wraps her baby up, then straps around her then blankets, etc.
there really needs to be more warnigns about this subject.
i'll get down from me soap box now!:panic:

Schnakes
28-01-2009, 09:30 AM
Thanks for the links you posted - Ive just taken the time to have a quick read and was pretty shocked, I have to say. Will have to re-think my current sleeping arrangements, I think. I would never leave a child to sleep upright or in a car seat/swing anyway, but I hadnt thought about the other issues.

Thanks again,

Sx

helenlc
28-01-2009, 09:42 AM
When my friend had her baby (now 5 yrs old) her midwife told her off for having him in the car seat indoors. I wouldnt do it, personally, always had a moses basket. I then began to wonder about these travel systems. I can see where they are coming from convenience wise in moving baby from car seat to pram. But a young baby who sleeps as much as a new born will stay asleep while you move them from car seat to a cosy pram.

I was out shopping yesterday and saw at least 2 young babies (about 3-4 months at a guess) who were both almost sitting up in their pushchair and they looked SO uncomfortable. They were both in pushchairs that had multiple recline so there was no need for them to be upright.

I had a pram with mine that was also a pushchair (all in one seat unit that laid flat to sitting upright), so gradually, as someone else said, I raised the back support.

I havent read the articles yet but I am going to later.

jadavi
25-03-2012, 03:21 PM
Which push chairs do people recommend that lie flat?
I have to change mine to accommodate sleeping babies now.

rickysmiths
25-03-2012, 05:00 PM
I have Maclaren Umbrella fold ones which lie flat.

mushpea
25-03-2012, 06:13 PM
my pushcharis lay flat when they sleep, mine sleep outside as normaly they fall asleep on a walk and bringing them in would mean having to strip coats and blankets so they dont get to hot which would wake them up, also its queiter in the garden.
I wont put them upstairs in travel cots because I cant see them and having a monitor is usless if they are having a fit,, I had a child have a febral convulsion in my care and he didnt make a sound, he sat there playing and just fell back and started fitting, if he had been out of my sight i wouldnt have know it was happening, I dont have them in my sights 24/7 of course but if I was thinking he was having an hours sleep I wouldnt have gone up to him within that time as I wouldnt want to disturb him so I prefer them to be where I can see them.

kel1983
25-03-2012, 07:34 PM
does anyone use sleep mats? Are these even safe to use?

toddlers896
11-10-2012, 08:11 AM
I have a LO that wont go in a travel cot no matter how tired she is. she stands up and just screams so bad that she gets herself in a state. 17months she is.
Ive tried it so many times but just cant be bothered with the stress it puts her and me through. I even struggle to get her to go in a buggy, she just screams there too, and will fight going down to sleep. This is definately the one thing i find fustrating about childminding as she is so tired and grumpy but just fights it. Hard work for me :(

2kidsunder5
11-10-2012, 08:52 AM
When I had my inspection, my inspector was very hot on wanting the children in a cot with clean bedding.

This suits me fine as I prefer it this way too. They get a better sleep in my opinion but that could just be the kids I have at the moment.

I have 3 travel cots and all the kids use these with their own bedding etc.

Not everyone has the space for travel cots, the upstairs of my home is not registered so the only place a travel cot could go is in the through lounge dining room where I mind from, just not practical.

I am a firm believer that as long as you have risk assessed the situation and can show the inspector that it is risk assessed and you have a safe sleeping policy and parental permission then a lie flat pram or the couch is sufficient. At the end of the day this is our home not a nursery!

clareelizabeth1
11-10-2012, 09:32 AM
I totally agree you can do exactly what you want with your own children.

With other people's children we must follow health and safety advice...

Sofas are a no no because of the risk of children getting stuck in cushions and not being able to breathe... same with beanbags.

Prams are fine if their backs are supported - and so are buggies, again if they are properly supported but only with written permission from parents.

Putting them on beds is absolutely no no because of the risk of rolling.

The Eyfs also states that they must have clean bedding, so the carpet is out. It must be a mattress with a sheet, individually cleaned for the child. If the child has allergies take advice from parents before using washing powder etc.

Hope this clarifies :D

When ofsted came to mine although I had lie down prams and a cot for every child they said if I wanted I could always use the couch

hectors house
11-10-2012, 09:54 AM
I have a LO that wont go in a travel cot no matter how tired she is. she stands up and just screams so bad that she gets herself in a state. 17months she is.
Ive tried it so many times but just cant be bothered with the stress it puts her and me through. I even struggle to get her to go in a buggy, she just screams there too, and will fight going down to sleep. This is definately the one thing i find fustrating about childminding as she is so tired and grumpy but just fights it. Hard work for me :(

I find that if I look after the babies young enough so they can't stand up in travel cot then I soon get a good sleep routine going with them, but the children who come when older, sometimes stand up and scream and if they won't sit or lie down then I'm never going to get them to sleep. I did have one many years ago like this and his mum was happy for him to sleep in buggy upstairs instead - in a buggy they are laid down and at least in the right positition to sleep. With this child I eventually got him into a travel cot once his sleep routine was established and then into a single bed when he was about 3. I have a mindee now who was about 9 months when she started with me and also refused to sleep in a travel cot - on the days her mum has her, they are so busy out and about to toddler groups and the park that she has got used to falling asleep in the buggy and has never established a routine of falling asleep in a cot during day. This mindee is now 2, she climbs into buggy by herself with her soft toy and sleeps for over an hour. I risk assess the room and make sure nothing is left within her reach, check the buggy straps are safe and check the brake is on - I also check on her every 50 mins as per my policy. I'm not going to try this child in a travel cot, she sleeps so well in the buggy and it means I can have 3 children asleep at same time.

I saw somewhere on this thread that someone wasn't keen on the idea of children sleeping in buggies out in the garden - when I was a baby (nearly half a century ago), it was the norm to put children outside to sleep in the garden, under the apple tree in the Silver Cross pram - whatever the weather - and I bet I wasn't checked on regularly.

winstonian
11-10-2012, 11:38 AM
That report is scary. I often put toddlers to sleep in a flat pushchair or on my settee. I obviously keep a close eye on them but it does make you think:(

lisa1968
11-10-2012, 08:51 PM
I always use pushchairs-they all lie flat and are a good size so little ones aren't restricted.I dont have the room for travel cots and by using pushchairs I can move them around and put them in the quietest place.They bi=oth sleep for a t least 2 hours.

sweets
11-10-2012, 09:06 PM
You will find a study for and against every subject possible if you search enough :(

Pushchairs totally flat and semi laid back are absolutlely fine for sleeping in and so are sofas, children have been sleeping in/on them for years.

People need to remember that we don't work for OFSTED, they are not our employers! all they have are lots of stupid rules and no common sense. we run our own businesses, where does it say in the EYFS that childrencant sleep in a pram? It does annoy me when people see them as gods :angry:

If parents are happy that their child sleeps in a pram and you are happy to what right have ofsted got to over ride a parents wishes over something so minor and silly.

acorns
11-10-2012, 10:52 PM
Wow, I started this thread years ago!! I now have 3, two 16mo sleep in pushchairs, one of which just screamed the house down (& much of the street) when I tried her in the cot = lots of stress for all of us, my other one would only sleep for 15mins at a time after lots of crying in the cot but will sleep for an hour or more in the pushchair, and my 10mo sleeps soundly in the cot. I've not had Ofsted yet but do risk assess every time I put them in the buggy and I think I would not be meeting the childrens needs if I were to place the two 16mo in cots just for them to get upset and refuse to sleep.

hectors house
12-10-2012, 07:59 AM
You will find a study for and against every subject possible if you search enough :(

Pushchairs totally flat and semi laid back are absolutlely fine for sleeping in and so are sofas, children have been sleeping in/on them for years.

People need to remember that we don't work for OFSTED, they are not our employers! all they have are lots of stupid rules and no common sense. we run our own businesses, where does it say in the EYFS that childrencant sleep in a pram? It does annoy me when people see them as gods :angry:

If parents are happy that their child sleeps in a pram and you are happy to what right have ofsted got to over ride a parents wishes over something so minor and silly.

I logged on here today to add to the post and found you had already said the same as I was going to - it makes me cross that people quote Ofsted all the time for you can't do that and you can't do this - exactly the same as people say "Health and Safety say" - I was out the children collecting conkers the other day and this man stopped and jokingly said "you can't play conkers - health and safety says so" well if you look on the HSE website it actually says that "Health and Safety" is used as an excuse by schools, employers etc not to do something or to change the rules but by HSE at all - it also says they believe children should be allowed to explore and not be wrapped up in cotton wool. And surely if all these prams/buggies/baby carriers are that dangerous they should state THIS EQUIPMENT IS ONLY DESIGNED TO TRANSPORT YOUR CHILD - DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES ALLOW THEM TO FALL ASLEEP!

I wonder has anyone every told Ofsted to leave during an inspection?

migimoo
12-10-2012, 12:08 PM
It seems to all depend on which Ofsted inspector you get and their personal opinion from the sound of it...at my inspection I explained that I have no room for a travel cot so if children fall asleep whilst out in the buggy they're left in there at the back of the living room-if a LO falls asleep indoors they are tucked up with their own blanket on my big,squishy corner sofa,parents are made aware of sleeping arrangements during registration but no permissions are signed,I have LO's from 9 months+...my OI was fine with this.

Lana10
13-10-2012, 08:34 AM
Oh wow this thread just caught my eye.I mind 2 LO`s who are 20 months and I have had them from being a year old.They have always napped in the buggy in my hallway. I could`nt get them to settle in the travel cot they would just cry,and on Tuesday I have the 2 of them together and they nap after lunch.Parents know this is how they nap at my house and are happy with this.But now Im wondering if I need a risk assessment,letter from parents and a policy.(things I never thought I needed for naptime.)Definately food for thought !

jackie 7
14-10-2012, 10:01 PM
I had a mindee who at 12 months didn't sleep much. He came to me from a friend who said rock him to sleep then pop him on sofa, I wasn't happy. I got him to sleep on a flat bed by patting him on his back in the kitcheen diner, then moved him to outside the room to sleeping with other kids in the sleep room/my sitting room. Parents amazed/thrilled. said their life was improved as he had a routine. If a travel cot is scary try a flat bed or matress on the floor.

rachelle
15-10-2012, 06:56 AM
I have a bit on my baby and toddler checklist forms that the parent's complete which says 'my child sleeps ........' and they choose where and sign it. I have 1 cot and 2 buggy sleepers at the moment. One of those buggy sleepers I move to the sofa if he falls asleep when out (he's 3 and doesn't go down for a nap as such) as he's too restricted by the buggy due to size, the other one stays in the buggy on lie flat with just the waist straps on.

I think the child's comfort and security (as in how safe they feel not where they are) comes first and my policies state as much. :)