4 YEAR OLDS IN FULLTIME SCHOOL!

[emma04]

HI All

Have have just spoken to Ofsted for the second time regarding ratios surrounding 4 year olds in full time school.

My daughter will be 4 in August 2008 and begins school in September 2008

I had always assumed that once she was in full time school she would be classed in the 5 or over bracket for ratio purposes at all times including after school, school holidays etc.

I AM WRONG!!!!:panic: :eek: :angry:

She is classed in the 5 or over bracket during term time only!!!!

For after school, school hols and when school is closed....She goes back to being 4 and therefore back to the under 5 bracket (until she turns 5 next August 2009)
This obviously proves a big issue if you think you can have 3 under 5 as soon as your child starts school. The Ofsted inspector told me that if i wanted to have 3 under 5 PLUS my own daughter, because she is classed as 4 out of school time, that i would have to apply for a variation to request 4 under 5's

Sorry if this sounds complicated and if you already knew (therefore i'm obviously a bit thick), but i posted a few days ago on this subject and it sounded as though some of you thought the statement in red above was wrong...........Its NOT Ofsted have clarified it to me in detail.

[Lou]

Well this is obviuosly another class A cock up from OFSTED!!!

As i said in the other post, when my daughter started school they just literally issued me another certifcate.

There is nothing on the certificate saying only term time.

They did not mention this, when i rang they just said oh yes she moves up into next catagory.

I might ring Ofsted and see if i get same response, seems different people tell you different things.

[Minnie Minx]

They really need to get their act together, they're making it so difficult for minders that soon there won't be any lol, for an organisaton that expects us to be 100% super efficient they don't set a very good example ;)


xx

[LittleMissSparkles]

oh god I just dont know what to believe anymore with bloomin OFSTED ..........

[samw]

Well Im stuck now then too. My other threads explain things but what a nightmare, how are we supposed to keep up. I dont understand why they bother saying we can class them as over 5, when this is only when they are at school and wont be being minded by us anyway.

Oh god, Im really not getting this whole ratio thing!

I was going to ask Ofsted if I could care for 4 under 5s including my own daughter who is 3 too, as I mind a 17 month old and have had enquiries for 2 boys aged 3 but are in full time nursery education. Dont think I will bother now!

Sam x

[Spangles]

Glad I read this thread because I just thought they were classed as over 5 all the time, had no idea it was only school hours! How stupid is that?

That doesn't make sense actually because we wouldn't have them then!

I'm confused. Do you think they've told you wrong?

[SARAHW26]

Hi
I was recently told by my inspector, that full - time four years old were classed in your 5 - 8 ratios, so I dead confused now.

I wish they would make there mind up

Sarah

[buildingblocks]

Sorry that is rubbish if that was the case then parents would have to pay to keep the childs place open i could see them being happy with that. Once they are in full time school this applies to holidays and term times. i would ring again and query this information and get it in writing

there was talk in the consultation of for EYFS that children up to the age of 6 (may be wrong about the age) would count as basically what is now an under 5 space but that was amended i am sure.

[Banana]

Im goig to call Ofsted now - I've got a spare 10 minutes, lets see what im told, i'll post back in a minute

x

[Banana]

Here's my answer:

'Once a child is in full time eductaion they are classed as a 'rising 5' so does not affect our ratio as they are in school. They ARE NOT classed as 4 in the holidays and are classed in the 5-8 category'

I asked why someone had called earlier and been given the other information and she said that she doubted anyone would have been told that.


So there you go. Maybe we should all call and see how many of us are told different things

x

[nell57]

hi
this is confusing, when i asked my development officer, she said she was'nt sure but would find out, she came back with the answer that 4y old would be classed as over 5y old even in hols, not sure if she got the info straight from ofsted
now doubt is set in my mind, panicking now cus we have half term soon

helen

[Wiggly]

WEll I recently applied to Ofsted to get my numbers changed as my son started full-time school after half term in October.

It was approved and I would have thought the accompanying letter would explain if at any point my child was no longer classed as an over 5 year old - ie holidays, after school etc to make it clear.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Wiggly
x

[nell57]

Here's my answer:

'Once a child is in full time eductaion they are classed as a 'rising 5' so does not affect our ratio as they are in school. They ARE NOT classed as 4 in the holidays and are classed in the 5-8 category'

I asked why someone had called earlier and been given the other information and she said that she doubted anyone would have been told that.


So there you go. Maybe we should all call and see how many of us are told different things

x
thanks banana,

I'm that slow at typing someone always puts the answer beofre i can post:blush:

helen

[mrsbumbles]

The wording for all this in the new eyfs standards sept 2008 is very confusing! page 51, it would help if it was written in easy to understand wording rather than jargon. Still confused!!!!

[button68]

Wow how confusing is this :panic:

One good thing going for me is that my 4 year old DD (at the moment she's at playgroup NOT full time school) will turn 5 on th 5th Sept - probably only a day or two after she starts full time school - so she'll never really be a 'Rising Five'

For once DD has made my life run at little smoother ;)

[sarah707]

The Standards (Standard 2, Organisation) state -

'children aged 4 attending 10 early education sessions a week may be classed as children over 5 years for the purposes of the adult/child ratio'

This clearly does not make any distinction between school days and holidays and this is what we currently have to meet.

__________________________________________________ _____________

The EYFS doesn't exactly state the difference between holidays vs school days... but on page 51 of the statutory framework (legal bit) it is quite clear...

'However, where 4 and 5 year old children only attend the childminding setting before and / or after a normal school day, they may be classed as children over the age of 5 for the purposes of the adult/child ratio...'

That says to me that, when the EYFS kicks in in Sept 2008, they are ONLY classed as 5 on school days but NOT during the school holidays...

I wonder if that's what the person was thinking about when talking to Emma originally...? :D

Oh no! I'm quoting from the standards... I'm starting to sound like an Ofsted employee!!!! :panic:

[Sarsar3NCH]

I agree with Donna, page 51 of statuatory framework re ratios is very badly written, it would imply that full time schoolers under 5 are only counted as over 5s during term time. There is so much in this framework that is open to interpretation I am going MAD :angry: :angry: :angry:

Much like the whole prescribed medicines debate, the Borough of Poole are telling everyone that a pharmacist can 'prescribe' off the shelf Calpol. I am so confused :confused:

Sarah

[Banana]

FFS - sorry, The EYFS, Ofsted and the ****** idiots on offices who cant make it easy are a royal pain in the ass!! I wish they would get there act together. P***** me off that we are supposed to be frickin mind readers

x

[mrsbumbles]

Oh Banana, you made me laugh!! but its no laughing matter. Bring back social services i say, thing were so much moer simple then.

[samw]

This question may not make any sense to anyone else other than me so please bear with me.

If the rules change in Sept and we can only class 4 year olds as a rising 5 during term time, what happens to the kids that we are already minding and are still under the age of 5, Im sure this is going to happen in some circumstances.

Like I say maybe its just me.

Samx

[sarah707]

This question may not make any sense to anyone else other than me so please bear with me.
If the rules change in Sept and we can only class 4 year olds as a rising 5 during term time, what happens to the kids that we are already minding and are still under the age of 5, Im sure this is going to happen in some circumstances. Like I say maybe its just me. Samx

It's not just you Sam, it's a perfectly valid question... let's hope someone from Ofsted comes up with an answer before then or they will be granting an awful lot of variations for continuity of care :D

[Trouble]

this means i was illegal for 12 months because i was told she was called as 5:eek:

[mrsbumbles]

What happens is, the parents of 4yr olds in full time school will hve to pay a full time retainer during term time for the whole year or untill the child turns five, for the use of holiday care, which is what? 12 weeks a year? so a space is available with their childminder in their under 5s ratio during school hols, cant see any parent agreeing to that!! ridiculous!!!

[Blaze]

Right everyone ring OFSTED & try & get this writing...I'm on the phone as we speak!

[Blaze]

Ok...the holiday & term time business applies for your own children...the 10 educational sessions applies to minded children...am trying to get this in writing!
Tasha:)

[manjay]

I am soooo glad I live in Wales!!

amanda xx

[emma04]

Hi All

I'm really sorry to have caused such controversy, but i am sooooo racked off with Ofsted, when i called today (for the second time to clarify this argument) i told the guy on the phone that he'd better get some more staff in to man the phones cos he was going to get alot of calls! He seemed to think that everyone knew and that i was the one being thick!! :angry:

I really didn't mean to send everyone into a frenzy, but there was no point keeping the info to myself. I just hope that after all of the calls, they will finally get this whole shambles worked out for the sake of all our sanity's!!:(

Don't know what else to say so i will go into hiding for a bit. I want to reassure all that have replied, that i am not the sort to get the wrong end of the stick..... i was on the phone to the poor bloke for over 30 minutes arguing it out (he must of thought i was a complete FRUITLOOP!!):mad:

[mrsbumbles]

Dont go into hiding Emma, you put forward a good point, and thats what this forum is for.
I still dont understand what difference it makes wether the rising 4yr old is your child or a mindee in the school hols, surely this is not practising equal opps?

[Sarsar3NCH]

The other point to this is that it is not just til the childs fifth birthday it is 'until 1st September following his or her fifth birthday' which obviously extends the problem further

Sarah

[ajs]

OMG THIS IS RIDICULOUS OFSTED ARE SO BLODY STUPID WHICH IS THE RIGHT ANSWER ARE WE ALLOWED TO HAVE RISING 5 ALL YEAR LONG IN THE 5 - 8 RATIO OR THE UNDER 5 RATIO
it doesn't actually affect me in any way as my mindees are all too young but youd think that at least one of us would get the same answer

[Lou]

Sorry i have only just got back on here since earlier.

Well i too rang OFSTED and they reiterated what Emma said.

THey said my daughter is in over 5s in term time and under 5s in hols.

I asked what if i have 3 under 5s and then there is hols and my daughter is at home?

He said i would have to apply for a variation.

Well i was not happy, asked how the hell i was supposed to know this????

Well im quite lucky as i only have 2 under 5s at mo, and dd turns 5 in may so should be ok, but even so, if we didnt clarify all this, and ofsted turned up then i would be in the wrong even though they havent made it clear???

Hmmm wheres that other thread? "worst thing about this job???"

OFSTED

[Kelly]

I can't quite believe what a fundemental **** up this is!!!! My son is 4 in school full time. In September I had a new registration certificate issued including him in my over 5's (I did make it clear it was my son) no one said anything about this term time only thing. I have filled his space full time (now have three under 3's). I would not be prepared to loose this income, I will keep quite for the time being and keep watching the thread....:panic: :panic:

[Banana]

Lou I hope you are kidding!!!

If you have been told that then you wait until 9am monday morning!!
I am going to call them and RANT RANT RANT!!

This is ridiculous!! Because here's my thinking.

Even if you have a child who is 4 at school and is classed as a 5 year old during term time but not out of term time then what happens when your child is at home as a 4 year old going to school in the morning - but you have say.. 2 one year olds and a 2 year old arriving at 7 and staying until 6pm (would be ****** knackered but im trying to just put a point across). So you would be over numbers in the morning and evening anyways... where is the difference if the 4 year old is there for 4 hours a day while the other children are there. Am i confusing everyone now? Im trying to write it simply.

My point is why is it okay to overlap for 4 hours in term time but when they are off school in holidays we would be over our numbers??

Im so mad... this isnt affecting me at the moment, izzy wont start school until 2009 (her bday is novemner so its not a huge wait) but for those who's child just turns 4 in time for school this will be a real problem!

And im mad that some OFSTED call handlers are Soooooooooooo Thick!! Not the first time there has been conflicting info on the forum from Ofsted and I can bet it wont be the last :angry:

x

[tomy12]

hi there
this is a good thread & i shall be keeping an eye on this.
I read the new eyfs bible to say that a child will count as a young one (under 5) untill the 1st of sept following their 5th birthday.
so my dd who will be 5 in sept 14th will be class as under 5 untill 1st sept 2009 then 13 days later will be 6.
be my network cordinator said i was being silly and the same rules appy when that comes in force sept as now.
but the new eyfs is ment to replcae the old national standards and will be the new bible we will have to go by?
claire

[Banana]

Thats not right... it cant be.

How can a six year old be classed as an under 5. Somethings not right here
x

[Lou]

Lana,

I promise thats the response i got.

I think i might ring again on monday morning and if i get the same response i wil ask for it in writing, seems odd they dont think to make this clear, hmmm what am i talking about they dnt make anything clear.

I have just had a thought.........................

I actually have the direct number of the lady who did my last inspection. she gave it to me as she had given me a number of dates when she might call and said i might need to contact her if all children were ill.
Would it be rude to ring her and discuss (not now clearly!!!!) and even ask her to pop round and talk it through???????????????

Anyway nice to know we are all clear on this now ha ha

[Banana]

Yeah, give her a call..... quick Q, how come she has given you dates where she might call.. wont you be notified of your next inspection... are inspectors just randomnly doing inspections now?

Im not clear in all this stuff, How was it possible to have a woman give me the wrong info at Ofsted today..... arent they all in the same office??? Dont they hear each other saying stupid things?
x

[miffy]

Ok...the holiday & term time business applies for your own children...the 10 educational sessions applies to minded children...am trying to get this in writing!
Tasha:)

Where in the national standards does it make this distinction between your own child and a mindee................cos I can't find it!

I really don't think this is correct - you can't have a child changing categories simply because it is school holidays.

Barmey!!!!!! Bet you don't get this in writing tasha

Miffy xx

[Lou]

Sorry Lana, no she did my inspection back in november, but when she rang she asked if there were any days i wasnt minding etc.

Then she gave me 3 possible days she might turn up, but as they were all 2 weeks away, she said i will give you my number just in case you all come down with something.

I have still got number.

Sorry didnt make myself clearer.

Just thought it might be an idea give her a ring as she was quite pleasant and see what she says???

anyway this is all a nightmare!!!

[Banana]

Oh right, sorry Lou, started panicking about random ofsted calls then for a surprise inspection - that would just make my day one of them lol

Its worth a try and see what she says. Maybe we should send a collective email showing our disgust at the differences in training given to Oftsed employees

x

[Lou]

yes i think its dreadful.

I am definatly going to make more calls on monday and will keep you posted.

I have to say though if you get something positive in writing keep hold of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ajs]

there's nothing like clear and conscise explanations and this is nothing llike a clear and conscise explanation

[miffy]

there's nothing like clear and conscise explanations and this is nothing llike a clear and conscise explanation


:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Miffy xx

[manjay]

OMG beware OFSTED! Forums members on the warpath!

Sorry girls that you are all going through this!! It reads to me like someone is going to say "Ha April Fool"!!

It just seems so different to how we work. I keep the same inspector for as long as she is in the job. I am in constant contact with her and she sends me regular emails to see how I am getting on and if I have any questions!

I have asked her this question in the past and she confirmed to me that children do not change catergories simply because they are on holiday from school. BUT they are CSSIW rules and not OFSTED.

Good luck to everyone and I hope you get it sorted. I shall be watching with interest.

amanda xx

[fionamal]

Its the same up here in Scotland too apparently. I got caught out in November on a spot check to be told I was over my numbers. Because daughters not yet 5 until March but at school .

[Sarsar3NCH]

If this is the case there are going to be a lot of 4/5 year olds without hol childcare places in the hols. It will happen to me, 2 of my under 5s are starting school full time from October but wony be 5 til Feb 09 and Aug 09 so therefore counted as under 5s in hols til Sept 09. I have to replace them when they go to school but won't be able to have them in hols as I will be over my numbers, even with a variation I could only have one of them.

I am so mad that they can cock up this badly


Sarah

[Tily Bud]

This is terrible !!!


I care for my full quota of under 5's and 3 over 5's ( or i thought they were ! ) and my own two are 10 and 12 yrs.


The 3 over 5's are 1 x 5 1/2 yrs, 1 x 5 last sept - so i suppose not really 5 till this september coming :rolleyes: and 1 x 4 yrs who will be 5 in july but in full time school - but i presume not classed as 5 until this sept :panic:


If this is the case then i am going to be 2 children in the under 5 bracket over my numbers during the school holidays:eek:


Or does this not count as they are not my own children :panic: I am sooo confused , I think i will also ring ofsted on monday ........... look out ofsted !!!!

I think if this is the case there are going to be a lot of childminders over their numbers in the holidays and ofsted will be flooded with variation requests !

[emma04]

Where in the national standards does it make this distinction between your own child and a mindee................cos I can't find it!

I really don't think this is correct - you can't have a child changing categories simply because it is school holidays.

Barmey!!!!!! Bet you don't get this in writing tasha

Miffy xx

It doesn't say it at all in the standards and to top it all off the bloke i spoke to at Ofsted said (i quote!) 'unfortunately the standards are a little vague!' What a F**** ridiculous thing to say! They expect us to play by the rules, but Ofsed have a rule book that obviously has as much use as a chocolate F***G teapot!!!!!!!!:angry:

Sorry all but after starting this thread, i'm going to have to leave cos i'm getting to the point where i will scream and wake my daughter!!!!!! :censored: Ofsted:censored: :censored:

[Blaze]

ofsted said if i wanted it in writing i was to email them with my query & they would email back the response....get typing girls!!!!
:censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored:
OFSTED! Emma...they said it was not their fault the standards were not clear on this point & this was a point to take up with the publishers...not OFSTED!
Tasha:)

[Rubybubbles]

It just makes no sence at all


My ds turned 4 in March(06), and I got a change in my reg for 2 under 5's (have dd too)

So like OP my dd is 4 in August, I'm sure thought NCMA have been trying to sort this Sept then tune 5 thingy in EYFS so childminders are expemt, I was looking forward to dd starting full time in Sept so I can have 3 under 5's.

I wonder ........................................:angry:

[mrsbumbles]

I have asked my development worker about this subject today, and she said it does not appy in our county? How does that work then? Good for us here in Northants, but not so good elsewhere. How can it be one rule for one and another rule for someone else? Crazy!!!

[kellym3]

:panic: OMG was counting on dd being classed as 5 in sep when she is only 4 birthday 25 aug. can only have 1 under 5 at moment(that is if i get any1:angry: )defently keeping an eye on this thread.

[Pipsqueak]

OMG I am confused:panic: :panic: - let me get this right

Come Sept 08 and the hallowed EYFS

If YOUR OWN child is age 4 and in full time education for term time ONLY they will be in the 5-8yrs ratio bracket. They will be classed as "rising 5" until their 6th birthday?
Out of term time they drop back down to the 4 year old ratio/bracket.

So this does not apply to minded children?
We will have to apply for a variation (for our own child) to cover ourselves in the school holidays.

Hope I have got all that right? Please feel free to correct me. I am off to read pg 51 (or which ever it is) of EYFS in a minute.

Well this is a monumental balls up of the first degree for a) not notifying people clearly and concisly as they like us to be) b) what a load of utter tosh



If we are getting a letter together - can someone put the wording (template letter) on here so we can all email OFSTED please.

[Rubybubbles]

:panic: OMG was counting on dd being classed as 5 in sep when she is only 4 birthday 25 aug. can only have 1 under 5 at moment(that is if i get any1:angry: )defently keeping an eye on this thread.

so yuor the same as me then:(

[Rubybubbles]

OMG I am confused:panic: :panic: - let me get this right

Come Sept 08 and the hallowed EYFS

If YOUR OWN child is age 4 and in full time education for term time ONLY they will be in the 5-8yrs ratio bracket. They will be classed as "rising 5" until their 6th birthday?
Out of term time they drop back down to the 4 year old ratio/bracket.

So this does not apply to minded children?
We will have to apply for a variation (for our own child) to cover ourselves in the school holidays.

Hope I have got all that right? Please feel free to correct me. I am off to read pg 51 (or which ever it is) of EYFS in a minute.

Well this is a monumental balls up of the first degree for a) not notifying people clearly and concisly as they like us to be) b) what a load of utter tosh



If we are getting a letter together - can someone put the wording (template letter) on here so we can all email OFSTED please.


It's utter :censored: come on clever people at writing letters I wil def send one off, mybe we should start a petiion on the govement web thingy:laughing:

[charleyfarley]

Thank god this is a problem I won't have

Charley started full time school last Sept and was 5 Oct

Mitchell starts school in Sept and is 5 beg Nov

But what about the children who are 5 but cant start school until the term after fifth birthday?

This happened to my friend, so what ratio is she in?

Confusing isn't the word

Carol xx

[manjay]

Thank god this is a problem I won't have

Charley started full time school last Sept and was 5 Oct

Mitchell starts school in Sept and is 5 beg Nov

But what about the children who are 5 but cant start school until the term after fifth birthday?
This happened to my friend, so what ratio is she in?

Confusing isn't the word

Carol xx

Gosh does that happen anymore? My poor little ds will have his school uniform on a few months after he is 3! :(

amanda xx

[angeldelight]

I will do the letter tomorrow for Ofsted about this

If anyone wants their name adding to it you will have to pm your full name please


Some of you have already done it so thanks

Angel xx

[charleyfarley]

Gosh does that happen anymore? My poor little ds will have his school uniform on a few months after he is 3! :(

amanda xx

They do in parts of Oxford, so glad we moved before Charley went to school.

The little ones do look really really cute in their uniforms though and it brings a tear to your eye

Carol xx

[Pipsqueak]

If this is the case then perhaps we should all start insisting that our children do not actually start school till they actually turn 5 - they will have to start doing the different intakes throughout the year again then! Pah (in one of them moods tonight.



Have pm'd you Angel - thanks

[charleyfarley]

If this is the case then perhaps we should all start insisting that our children do not actually start school till they actually turn 5 - they will have to start doing the different intakes throughout the year again then! Pah (in one of them moods tonight.



Have pm'd you Angel - thanks

Apparantly schools are not abliged to take children until the age of 5.

Some schools choose to take children earlier.

So by law parents do not have to send children to school till they are 5 either

It was really confusing when I lived in Oxford as 2 mindees both aged 4, 1 went to full time school and 1 went half days nursery

Carol xx

[Banana]

I called again this morning.

This time she went and checked with a supervisor before answering.


Basically, yes, the are classed as 5 in term time but in the hoilidays they are classed as under 5's. So I had a bit of a rant and then said how ridiculous it all was and what happens about if your child is ill and off for a day - does that mean im over my numbers etc??? Was all a bit wishy washy and to be honest the fact that she didnt know and had to go and check shows that they arent receiving the correct training!

Apparently if this rule is an issue for us then we should just write to inspection support and ask for a variation for the holidays.

So can anyone clarify this.... is this only when the EYFS comes in or technically are there minders over their numbers now according to this ridiculous rule?

x

[chez1373]

Sorry this is going of subject a little?
Is are our children with in our nymbers i can care for 4 under 8 my son is 2 will he take up a space?

[Banana]

That should be in addition to your own child

x

[Blaze]

I called again this morning.

This time she went and checked with a supervisor before answering.


Basically, yes, the are classed as 5 in term time but in the hoilidays they are classed as under 5's. So I had a bit of a rant and then said how ridiculous it all was and what happens about if your child is ill and off for a day - does that mean im over my numbers etc??? Was all a bit wishy washy and to be honest the fact that she didnt know and had to go and check shows that they arent receiving the correct training!

Apparently if this rule is an issue for us then we should just write to inspection support and ask for a variation for the holidays.

So can anyone clarify this.... is this only when the EYFS comes in or technically are there minders over their numbers now according to this ridiculous rule?

x

No it's from now...well aparently it has been the rule since the National Standards came into effeict years ago...we are all just thick & it's not OFSTED's fault that the NS's are vague!
Tasha:)

[Blaze]

PS...it will continue to be the rule under EYFS!
Tasha:)

[Banana]

Are we the only people that didnt know this?

I had never even thought about it. So isnt that going to affect some of you on here.

Do you think I should call my support minder (well, she's not now) but she still said to call her about anything if i neede her. Just thinking she's connected with all the other minders that started when I did so maybe incase they dont know??

x

[Blaze]

|everyone i have tried to tell has been completely uniterested as I don't have it in writing...am waiting for a response to my email...should get it today or tomorrow. Will post it when i get it|!
Tasha:)

[angeldelight]

I have also emailed this morning Lana with some of our names added

Let you know when I receive a reply

Angel xx

[Banana]

Thanks Angel

Well if they arent interested Tasha... you cant say you didnt try to warn them


xxx

[Sarsar3NCH]

I have tried to warn people about this and most people thought I was mad. I tried explain that some of you had spoken to Ofsted but there were not interested. I await email responses eagerly xxxxx

[Blaze]

This is what OFSTED emailed back.
Tasha:)

Dear Mrs Disown Lee



Thank you for your email.



The rising five rule applies to both minded children as well as your own, this rule does not change during school holidays. If a child attends full time school for example ten sessions per week then they are regarded as five year olds (rising 5's).


However should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us.



Regards



Miss Donna Culbert

Customer Service Advisor

Ofsted - National Business Unit

TEL: 08456 404040




-------Original Message--------
From: "Tasha" tasha@dyson-lee.demon.co.uk
To: "enquiries@ofsted.gov.uk" enquiries@ofsted.gov.uk
CC:
Sent: 30/01/2008 12:37:41
Subject: Classification



[THREAD ID :13B6CF]

Please could you confirm when a 4 year old is classed as 5, for both minded children, as well as my own. I have been told that 4 year olds that attend 10 educational settings a week are only classed as 5 while they are at school...so therefore before/afterschool & holidays they revert back to being 4 (as far as numbers are concerned), it was also mentioned that the rising 5 rule only applies to a childminders children...all v. confusing & makes managing numbers very difficult! I am quite shocked if this is really the case that it hasn\'t been highlighted.
Regards
Natasha Dyson-Lee


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[angeldelight]

Thanks Tasha

I am still waiting for a reply at least you have one now

xx

[Blaze]

Would be interesting to see if we get the same reply!
Tasha:)

[LittleMissSparkles]

did they really spell your name disown tasha ??? thats terrible x

[Minnie Minx]

it's blooming appalling and needs reporting so an apology can be issued



xx

[Pipsqueak]

For goodness sake this saga just goes from bad to worse doesn't it. (Well done Tasha on your efforts by the way).

I have always been under the impression that school attending 4yr olds where classed in your next bracket up (5-8yrs). I am astounded that this has NEVER been pointed out (that they revert back to being 4yrs old when they are out of school), by ANYONE - ICP course, DHC, Inspector, Any course assesors, network, ANYONE.
Thats going to balls some people up then isn't it.

So what do we do - start charging parents while the kids are at school - not particuarly feasible is it and it will be very unwelcome. After all they are taking up a space that we cannot fill or would be hard to.

Talk about not making things simple.

[Blaze]

did they really spell your name disown tasha ??? thats terrible x

yep they did mispell my name...well spotted!
Tasha:)

[ruby]

i have been keeping an eye on this over the weeks
though i am with the cssiw .
my friend was told the same as you that they revert to under 5's durng the holidays
so just to be on the safe side i emailed the CSSIW and had a reply back yesterday
the stay as rising 5 term-time and holidays
at least when i have my inspection this year i will have it in writing as the inspector who told my friend differently is the same one that i have for my inspections.

hope you all get this sorted out soon

Cathy and Rachel

[Banana]

They do not return to under 5's during holidays

xx

[Pipsqueak]

They do not return to under 5's during holidays

xx

Thankfully - it would be most confusing for the little ones who wouldn't know their correct age!!!! ;) :D

Let alone for us!!!

[Rubybubbles]

OKay so thats sorted for now.........................................





What about in Sept? (hides in corner, but does want to know!!)

[tomy12]

dear all
i asked the same question and this was my reply
Dear Mrs Curtis
Please be advised that if a child is 4 years of age,is going into fulltime education then they will be counted as a 5 year old in your registered numbers.
please note however should this apply to you,then you should put this in writing providing a signature to the ofsted inspection surpport team.
should you require the address to send this to please provide me with your registration number and we will be happy to assist you
regards suzie bundock

so does this mean i have to apply in writing to have a child who is 4 but in full time education to comply with my registration?
any advice welcome

claire

[Pipsqueak]

dear all
i asked the same question and this was my reply
Dear Mrs Curtis
Please be advised that if a child is 4 years of age,is going into fulltime education then they will be counted as a 5 year old in your registered numbers.
please note however should this apply to you,then you should put this in writing providing a signature to the ofsted inspection surpport team.
should you require the address to send this to please provide me with your registration number and we will be happy to assist you
regards suzie bundock

so does this mean i have to apply in writing to have a child who is 4 but in full time education to comply with my registration?
any advice welcome

claire


Thanks for that but I will ask the same question as you - does that mean then that we have to inform OFSTED and our rising 5's we don't just assume that they are counted into our next age bracket.

Phew blimey this subject is exhausting!!! If it ain't one thing tis another..:D

[berkschick]

I THINK you have to inform OFSTED so that they can send you out an amended certificate.

[tomy12]

hi all

had a reply today saying i have to inform ofsted if i have any aged 4yrs but go to full time school, so i can count them as a over 5 .
do you think i will get in trouble for already treating one as a over 5 as i didn't know we had to inform ofsted as its in the standards that a child who goes to fulltime schoolbut is 4years old can be counted as a over 5 for our numbers.
shall i say i have a 4 year old i treat as a over 5 already??
what shall i do as i will have another come sept that will be 4 but going to school and will be with me just in school hols.
what would you do,i am really worried now that i have done some thing wrong.
claire:eek:

[Pipsqueak]

Given the amount of confusion between us and the conflicting information (and lack of) we receive then I would say you wouldn't get into trouble as I don't see how OFSTED could even justify a ticking off.

Wouldn't worry about it.

[wendywu]

Well i never knew we had to inform them of this fact.

What makes me laugh is that if we conducted our business this way, not being sure of facts, changing contracts and policies at a moments notice to suit ourselves, Ofsted would throw the book at us.

Perhaps they need a few policies themselves.:laughing:

[Pipsqueak]

Shall we offer to write them:panic:

[sarah707]

I've always said if Ofsted were a business they'd have gone bust years ago! Their total inefficiency is overwhelming sometimes! :eek:

[gailee]

so if a child is 4 years and in 10 hours a week are they classed as rising 5???
so if a child is in nursery and is 4 which is 10 educational settings a week that makes them a rising 5 ??? is this correct ??? gail

[ruby]

i think it is only for children who go to main school not nursery

we are different in Wales but i am sure some one will be along to help you

cathy

[Pipsqueak]

A 4yr old has to be in full time education, ie at school all day - they are then considered rising 5.
If they are 4 and in their nursery sessions then they are still considered 4 (my neice is - she is in reception at school but only attends 9am till 12.30pm 5 days a week and is considered 4 not rising 5) how confusing is that!

[Heaven Scent]

Someone here has a daughter whos birthday is the 5th Sept just wanted to begin with so have I. Now I've tried to read all 3 pages of this thread and gave up after 1.5. I know what you are all saying and what Ofsted are saying but aren't they contradicting themselves. Its ok to have a 30:2 ratio to these poor babies in a huge school where they have to look after themselves in toilets and sort themselves out at lunchtime carrying loaded trays across lunch halls and sorting out battles when another kiddie sits in their place and then they have to spend their free time playing with very limited resources and equipment on a concrete or tarmac playground together with between 90 and 180 other KS 1 children. But on the other hand in the hols they are saying that they cannot be in a nice clean caring environment where their food is handed to them and they are helped to the loo have suitable play equip etc etc etc unless they are wrapped up in cottonwool and are in a ratio of 3:1 under 5's plus 3 others under 8 that is riduculous as I imagine children will be coming and going in the hols so not all places will be taken...... What a load of s**te.

Celine

[Saz]

I had my pre-reg on Monday and my dd, aged 4, attends full time nursery school. Inspector said she would not be classed as over 5. In the school holidays she would be at home therefore counted in my numbers. I will have to wait until she is officially 5 in December, even though she starts reception class in September.

[deeb66]

I have heard this information directly from Surrey's Early Years Team who have checked with Ofsted to clarify this situation.

The rule is if the child is in full time school (i.e. all day!) then they are classed as over 5 and therefore falls into the 5-8 bracket. This includes school holidays.

This rule has been in effect for quite a few years now.

EYFS - September 2008

If the child is rising 5 but in full time school then as far as your ratios are concerned they still fall in the 5-8 bracket during school holidays but......

And this is what has caused the confusion..........

If they are still 4/5 in the school holidays you have apply EYFS and carry out the Practical Guidence part of it which means doing planning, observations and applying the 6 areas of development (KUW, PSED, PSRN, CLL,PD & CD).

If you think about it logically this would make sense as the child that is rising 5 or who has just passed 5 and at full time school is in Reception Class and the school would be delivering EYFS so we have to do it in the school holidays to provide continuity.

YOUR RATIO'S WILL NOT BE AFFECTED.

I hope this makes sense!

[Sarsar3NCH]

Thanks Dee xx

[miffy]

I have heard this information directly from Surrey's Early Years Team who have checked with Ofsted to clarify this situation.

The rule is if the child is in full time school (i.e. all day!) then they are classed as over 5 and therefore falls into the 5-8 bracket. This includes school holidays.

This rule has been in effect for quite a few years now.

EYFS - September 2008

If the child is rising 5 but in full time school then as far as your ratios are concerned they still fall in the 5-8 bracket during school holidays but......

And this is what has caused the confusion..........

If they are still 4/5 in the school holidays you have apply EYFS and carry out the Practical Guidence part of it which means doing planning, observations and applying the 6 areas of development (KUW, PSED, PSRN, CLL,PD & CD).

If you think about it logically this would make sense as the child that is rising 5 or who has just passed 5 and at full time school is in Reception Class and the school would be delivering EYFS so we have to do it in the school holidays to provide continuity.

YOUR RATIO'S WILL NOT BE AFFECTED.

I hope this makes sense!

Thank you Dee

I think I have the ssolution - if I just look after teacher's children then I won't need to deliver EYFS once they are at school for 10 sessions a week whether they are 4 or 5 cos they won't come in the holidays - perfect

miffy