3 children under 5 or 6?

[Mollymop]

Well, sorry to go on about this, as I know there have been many threads on this subject but -

I got a letter today from Ofsted to tell me what register I would be on - I am going to be on both, like I think all childminders are? I hope that is right.

Well in the letter it says -

It is important to note that from 1 september 2008, if one of your conditions refers to children aged five, it will be treated as a condition relating to children in the early years age group, which includes children from birth to the 31st August following the child's fifth bithday. You can only provide care for a maximum of 3 children in the early years age group.
So is that stating that we can only look after 3 children under 6 and not under 5, as it is now??

I am confused. Help!!

[balloon]

I got this same letter yesterday.

I took it to mean that since the early years age group is birth to the Sept 1st after they are five (eg if they are five in jan - aug 30th/31st 2008, they count as early years until Sept 1st 08, if they are five in the period sept 1st 08 to aug 09), they count as early years til set 1st 09 and so on.

I may not have got this right though and will be interested in others answers too.

The on the other part of the register (later years) we can care for children until their 17th birthday should we so wish.

Again, this is my interpretation and I may not be right...

[Mollymop]

Yes, i understand that part, but the letter states we can only look after 3 children of this age group at anyone time, at the moment once the children start full time education they are classed as 5 and therefore can move up to our 5-7 grouping. But this letter is saying the children have to be 6 to move up? I am confused, haha

[nannan]

Yes, i understand that part, but the letter states we can only look after 3 children of this age group at anyone time, at the moment once the children start full time education they are classed as 5 and therefore can move up to our 5-7 grouping. But this letter is saying the children have to be 6 to move up? I am confused, haha


There is a lot of confusion about this, the way I have interrupted the information and have been informed by other colleagues is

that while the children are attending full time school and you have them before and after school they count in your over 5's,

but when they is an inset day or holiday and you are then caring for them all day and not just before school and after school, the children revert back to your under 5's until the september after they 5th birthday, which mean you could have 3 already under 5 and have to tell the parent of the child attending full time school that you can not care for them in the holidays as they would take you over your numbers

not sure if I have made it any clearer, but hope it helps

[emmadines]

well that will screw some of us up then..... i have 2 starting that are not yet 4 but not far off it and at full time school.

[nannan]

well that will screw some of us up then..... i have 2 starting that are not yet 4 but not far off it and at full time school.


I agree it will give us and the parents a mega headache come next year, especailly in the summer holidays

perhaps we can get some one like NCMA to lobby ofsted and the government on our behalf about this

[Chimps Childminding]

OMG not again, I thought that was all cleared up and that they couldn't revert back to under 5's in the holidays!!!!!!! One of my parents is wanting me to have her son an extra day once he starts school (can't fit him in on under 5's but was hoping that once he started school it would be ok in the holidays!). Oh :confused:

[Mollymop]

Oh what a marlarkie! Where is Sarah?! help!

I have been worried about this all day, as my Caitlin goes to school in september and therefore she will be classed as 5 - and counted in my 5-8 age group. I have even got a new registration certificate coming to state this!
I can't have her reverted back in to my early years group in the school holidays, there is no way. I am almost full up, so if this is the case I will not be able to fill my vacanices. :mad:

[sarah707]

Sorry Sandra, I missed this one earlier, I have sent you a pm.

Here is a letter from Ofsted...

They are classed as over 5 when they go to school for 10 sessions a week...

This does not change when they are on holiday!

Why don't they make it easier?!? :(


Dear Childminder,

The National Standards stipulate that four-year-old children who attend 10 early education sessions a week may be classed as children over five for the purpose of adult: child ratio. The EYFS Statutory Framework document uses slightly different wording. It states that four and five year old children who only attend the Childminding setting before and/or after the school day may be counted as over five for the purposes of the adult: child ratio.

We have received confirmation from the Department for Children, Schools and Families that the change in wording does not result in a change in the legal requirement. Reference is made to children attending the Childminding setting before and after the school day only to specify which children may be counted as five. Therefore, the EYFS does not prevent four and five year olds who attend school full time from being counted as over fives during the school holidays. "

I hope this information helps. However should you require any further information do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind Regards,
Oliver Walker
Customer Service Advisor, Ofsted

[kindredspirits]

phew thats a relief!! :rolleyes: i thought this whole malarky was getting confusing again!! thanks sarah.

[Mollymop]

Thanks very much Sarah!! That is such a relief!

Ofsted state to you in their email that they use "different wording", so why don't they change the wording, you know, to stop us having panic attacks. haha

At least I will sleep well tonight knowing that I don't need to worry.

Oh, p.s - Sorry to you all for bringing this all up again, but i was desperate to know. Thanks x

[merry]

I got this letter too and rang Ofsted just to check. They said as long as child was in full time education they still counted as an over 5 for ratio purposes including in school holidays

:)

[Hannahlg]

well me and my mum have been told we can class them as over 5's in the hoildays as soon as they turn 5 and this is what me and my mum have been told todo

and we can class them as over'5 when going to school all day in termtime

[mum2two]

Well that's not how the letter words it.

As Sandra said in her first post, the letter we've got from ofsted about the new registers states:

It is important to note that from 1 September 2008, if one of your conditions refers to children aged five, it will be treated as a condition relating to children in the early years age group, which includes children from birth to the 31st August following the child's fifth birthday. You can only provide care for a maximum of 3 children in the early years age group. It then says new certificates will be being issued in stages to reflect this new information, and the letter had to be kept as proof of our new registration, with our existing certificate, until the new certificates arrive.

I've called the NCMA information line, and the local NCMA offices, as I thought it had been cleared up, and was told they were still waiting to hear. I said it's going to be a major strain, financially, for childminders to operate this way, as we can't charge whilst their at full time school, quite unlikely to get a term time only space, so lose out on a lot of money.

I've had an enquiry which I can't say yes to, unless the rising 5's reverts back to how it is now.

She said they were aware of the impact, and it's quite like ofsted to leave these things til the last minute.

So it's far from sorted in my opinon, and ofsted, as usual, still don't know what one persons saying from the others....!!!

We need a clear and definate answer, which everybody gets the same!!!!

Kelly x

[Chimps Childminding]

Do you think Ofsted have their own calendar (they seem to live in their own little world) and dont realise that September is only a couple of weeks away and we need to know what the answer is once and for all????????? :doh:

[Mollymop]

I am going by what Sarah says, if it is wrong then it is wrong. I am going to carry on as normal until I find out any different - after all ofsted are telling us that the "wording is wrong" and NCMA have no idea, ofsted seem to know then they don't, giving different advice. If we all get an email like Sarah then it is proof that we have been told how to go about things, by ofsted, then they can't hang us for it

[mum2two]

I think that's most definitely the case!

We'll all hopefully hear its been changed on 31st August! After they've started sending out new certificates & then have to change them all back again!!

I just wish they would let us know the same thing... I'm going to call tomorrow & see what response I get from them. If it's something I like, I'll ask for it in writing, then that way I'm covered when I have an inspection, and they'd have to grant continuity of care variation! :p

Kelly x

[sarah707]

I have just sent the following email to Ofsted... I will share their hopefully enlightening reply with you :D

Dear Sir / Madam

Can you please urgently clarify the situation regarding ratios and the eyfs for 5 year old children.

I have a letter from your colleague Oliver Walker stating -

'the EYFS does not prevent four and five year olds who attend school full time from being counted as over fives during the school holidays.'

However, a fellow childminder has received a letter stating -

It is important to note that from 1 September 2008, if one of your conditions refers to children aged five, it will be treated as a condition relating to children in the early years age group, which includes children from birth to the 31st August following the child's fifth birthday. You can only provide care for a maximum of 3 children in the early years age group. It then says new certificates will be being issued in stages to reflect this new information, and the letter had to be kept as proof of our new registration, with our existing certificate, until the new certificates arrive.

The childminder has contacted NCMA who state they are aware of the situation and are aware of the impact it will have on childminders, but cannot give a definitive answer.

I thought my letter from Oliver Walker was the definitive answer but it appears to be a muddy issue again.

Please can you urgently clarify the situation as it will have a bearing on new contracts for September.

Thank you

Sarah Nev

[Chimps Childminding]

Thanks Sarah its getting really confusing!!!!!!!!! :huh:

[balloon]

Just to add...

I was on the Bromley site today looking at P&Ps and saw a news item about this (from back in June)

The URL is: http://www.bromleycma.org.uk/news/news
The item is about half way down the page. The following quote comes from the bottom of the news item.

"DfCSF have responded as follows:

“... where four and five year olds attend school full-time and only attend the childminding setting before and after the school day, they can be counted as children over the age of five for the purposes of the ratio requirements.

These children may also be counted as children
over the age of five during the school holidays.”"

I think that's pretty much the same thing as Sarah was told in her letter so hopefully it's right.

Hope that helps a little too

[mum2two]

I've just sent an e-mail too. Also saying can the inform the NCMA of their decision, as a lot of childminders go to them for advice.

Hopefully I'll get the same letter as Sarah - and at the end of the day that's all I need. What can the inspector say if I'm following the rules of a letter/e-mail from one of their own...

Kelly x

[Mollymop]

Thanks Sarah! Hopefully once and for all it will all be cleared up!!

[Gherkin]

Sandra thanks for starting this thread as I was worrying about this today as I got the letter today.Was panicing that when they send through the new certificate that they would wipe out the change in my ratios that the inspector implemented a couple of weeks ago.

Do you think they word things in such a way as to get us into a sheer panic?

[susi513]

Sarah, what date did Oliver write? Linda Cass, Ofsted Inspection Team Manager wrote to me on 21 July and said:

"I am writing in response to your query regarding rising 5's being classed as 5 year olds during school hours and under 5 years after school and during school holidays, as stated in the EYFS.

This issue is currently being reviewed as the impact on childminders will be significant. At present, childminders can carry on caring for children within their current registration with no changes.

You will be notified when a firm decision has been made regarding this aspect of the EYFS."

[sarah707]

Here is the reply! I will put it in a new thread as well...

Clearly, when they attend 10 sessions of school they are over 5... all the time.

Hope it helps! :D

Dear Ms Neville,

Thank you for your e-mail.

The old category of children under five will be replaced by the new younger years age group (children aged from birth to the 31st of August following their fifth birthday). Ratios will need to be applied to this new age range.

However you can continue to apply rising fives to allow children to be counted as older than the younger years age group for the purposes of ratios when they attend at least ten early education sessions a week.

Please see below for the relevant requirement as stated in the statuatory framework document appendix 2:

'Each childminder may care for:

a maximum of six children under the age of eight;

of these six children, a maximum of three may be young children (birth to the 31st of august following his/her 5th birthday) however where four- and five-year-old children only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult:child ratio;

normally, no more than one child may be under the age of one, however a childminder may be registered to care for two children under the age of one where they are able to demonstrate that they can meet and reconcile the individual needs of all the children being cared for.

Exceptions to these ratios can be made for siblings and to provide continuity of care in certain circumstances approved by Ofsted, provided that the total number of children under the age of eight being cared for does not exceed six.

If a childminder either employs an assistant or works with another childminder, the above numbers apply to each of these individuals in addition to the childminder.'

Also note extended ratios due to assistants can also be continued but again will refer to children from birth to the 31st of august following their 5th birthday rather than the previous band of under 5s (see final point above).

Again rising fives can be applied to these ratios.

We have received confirmation from the Department for Children, Schools and Families that the change in wording does not result in a change in the legal requirement. Reference is made to children attending the childminding setting before and after the school day only to specify which children may be counted as five. Therefore, the EYFS does not prevent four and five year olds who attend school full time from being counted as over fives during the school holidays.

I hope the information I have provided will be of some assistance to you. If you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us.

Regards,

Kerry Smith

Customer Service Advisor

Ofsted - National Business Unit

TEL: 08456 404040

[son77]

Thanks again Sarah.

Just a quickie!

If you are required for a short term contract, say Oct half term for a 4 yr old, they do attend school for 10 sessions a week but you do not care for them before & after school, just required as a 1 off for holiday only, then are they still counted as a rising 5?

Just wondering if they are only counted as a rising 5 if you do before/after school care for them.

[Mollymop]

Phew! Thanks for that Sarah! x

[sarah707]

Thanks again Sarah.

Just a quickie!

If you are required for a short term contract, say Oct half term for a 4 yr old, they do attend school for 10 sessions a week but you do not care for them before & after school, just required as a 1 off for holiday only, then are they still counted as a rising 5?

Just wondering if they are only counted as a rising 5 if you do before/after school care for them.

No, it's not about when you work... it's about how many school sessions the child does.

You could work one day in the summer holidays... if the child goes to 10 sessions of school, then they are classed in your over 5s ratios.

Hope this makes sense :D

[son77]

Thanks Sarah.

I understand!

[mum2two]

Just to add my response from Ofted. I'm happy to say is the same as Sarah's. This was mine I got today:

Dear Ms Rolfe,

Thank you for your e-mail.

A rising five is a child who can be counted as five because they attend ten educational sessions per week. This applies to ratios during term time and holiday periods.

This is correct under both the current National Standards and the Early Years Foundation Stage which comes into force on 1st September 2008.

However should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us

Regards,

Cara Daley
Customer Service Advisor
Ofsted - National Business Unit
TEL: 08456 404040

Woo hoo, so i have it in writing should any future person disagree with it!! :clapping: (Which is what I wanted to cover ourselves!)

Kelly x

P.S - Hi to Miss Mopple if she reads this!!! :D

[louise]

Hi, Just thought i'd add to this. I had applied for an increase in numbers and a guy from ofsted called me today.I asked him as it will now affect me. He said they will always be over 5 when they are full time. It was only confirmed last week. He was quite helpfully.:eek:

Lou

[mum2two]

Hi, Just thought i'd add to this. I had applied for an increase in numbers and a guy from ofsted called me today.I asked him as it will now affect me. He said they will always be over 5 when they are full time. It was only confirmed last week. He was quite helpfully.:eek:

Lou


He was helpfully was he... :laughing:

Sorry - that made me chuckle! Simple things eh...! :blush:

Kelly x