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mookie
05-04-2016, 12:56 PM
I've just taken on a 30 month old girl. Her cm is starting maternity leave so she is here while her own cm is on maternity leave.
She has not been here long but I am concerned about her development. She says maybe 2 or 3 words only. She can point and grunt and she an understand things such as "where's your nose" etc. Trouble is, mum says she can't give me her book/diary/learning journey, as her cm has specifically asked her not to. While I'm tempted to just start again, and work out where her first steps are, It would be in the child's best interest if I could just carry on where she left off?*
Or am I wrong to want to see it? I feel uncomfortable at the moment to ask mum for her concerns if she has any. She hasn't told me of any concerns or developmental delay apart from she's not potty training yet. She does seem very "unlike" her peers.*
Just wondered if anyone had ideas?

S

moggy
05-04-2016, 01:07 PM
Mmm, tricky... I think I'd invite mum in for a 'routine' starting points meeting- keep it positive, have the 'What to Expect When?' document in front of you, and The Communication Trust's 'Universally Speaking' is good too.
Say you like to do this with all new children, regardless of how long they'll be with you.
Read through each point in 'What to Expect When?' for the child's age and ask mum what she's seen child doing, it might be that mum has no idea the child is behind, it might be that mum is in denial, it might be that the child says a lot more at home than with you... whichever way, ask for examples iif she says child can do xyz, and give examples of what you have seen- keep it positive, point out the good things the child can do.
Then hopefully it will be easier to say 'so these things are still developing, let's try xyz to see if that helps...' etc. and make a short plan of the main points you feel need most attention.
You can ask mum what the last CMer has been doing for next steps etc., let her know she has a right to have/see the LJ the other CMer has made. Seems an odd situation, maybe if you have had a chat mum might open up about what the other CMer's concerns are... might be the other CMer is just worried that she's not doing things right or worried you might judge her- we can be very protective about our own ways of working.

mookie
05-04-2016, 01:45 PM
Thank you. I'll arrange that. I don't think the other cm would think that as she is "outstanding" and I'm not, but I understand what you mean. I just want to support this child. Thanks again! Xx

blue bear
05-04-2016, 04:20 PM
Makes me wonder if cm has raised concerns and is reflected in her lj and diary and mum doesn't want to show it to you in the hope the concern might just go away.
Great advice from moggy:)

bunyip
05-04-2016, 05:57 PM
It strikes me there's something somebody knows and isn't telling: either mum or the previous CM.

At the moment, you can only speak to mum, but I'd be wanting to get in touch with the other CM to see what she has to say.

mookie
05-04-2016, 06:11 PM
It strikes me there's something somebody knows and isn't telling: either mum or the previous CM.

At the moment, you can only speak to mum, but I'd be wanting to get in touch with the other CM to see what she has to say.

See....I'm thinking that too. I'd rather just know as surely this is best for the child. I will speak to mum at the weekend. If I'm still concerned I will contact the other cm. I just want to know what is best for the child. It may even be that I'm being paranoid and stupid and this paperwork will show that.
Anyway, if I continue to be worried, I will contact her. If it all blows up in my face, at least I can put my hand on my heart and say I was concerned about the child. Can't do more than that.
Ty for all your posts xxx

bunyip
05-04-2016, 06:19 PM
I appreciate the other CM is on maternity, but why wouldn't she pass on L&D records and other information in some form if she's doing her job properly and has the child's interests at heart?

I'd be a bit concerned that the other CM is at least failing in her duty to share information, assuming there is parental consent, and thereby not supporting the transition and potentially leaving herself open to a complaint.

In any case, you should cover yourself in case there's more to it than that. It's a long way from being considered a safeguarding issue, but at this stage I'd rule nothing in and rule nothing out. And what's the question that always comes up if there is a safeguarding concern? ...............why didn't the professionals communicate with one another?

Don't assume anything, but I think you've every right and duty to speak to the other CM.

sarah707
05-04-2016, 07:06 PM
I'd want starting points from parent/s and I'd do my own baseline assessment - then invite parent/s in for a chat about how the lo is getting on and what you will be working on next.

if there is a concern you can discuss it then and talk about next steps together :D

mookie
09-04-2016, 05:46 PM
Thanks guys. Your answers have really helped me. Ive started my own assessments. I thought, if mum questions why I have begun with such early starting points, I will have to say that I had nothing else to go on so wanted everything covered. I have purchased the mini ebook on starting points and got the document ready "what to expect when" for any questions. Basically, like you say, I just want to do my job and work with the child. I will contact the other cm just saying that I have started this, but if she has anything she feels would be beneficial to be added or if she thinks her 2 year check would help...etc...etc..at least I can say I tried everything.

Thanks again for all your advice. Really do appreciate it xx

Simona
10-04-2016, 08:01 AM
I've just taken on a 30 month old girl. Her cm is starting maternity leave so she is here while her own cm is on maternity leave.
She has not been here long but I am concerned about her development. She says maybe 2 or 3 words only. She can point and grunt and she an understand things such as "where's your nose" etc. Trouble is, mum says she can't give me her book/diary/learning journey, as her cm has specifically asked her not to. While I'm tempted to just start again, and work out where her first steps are, It would be in the child's best interest if I could just carry on where she left off?*
Or am I wrong to want to see it? I feel uncomfortable at the moment to ask mum for her concerns if she has any. She hasn't told me of any concerns or developmental delay apart from she's not potty training yet. She does seem very "unlike" her peers.*
Just wondered if anyone had ideas?

S

Children's records belong to the parents
we must pass them on when requested but we are, of course, entitled to keep a copy for our records and to evidence to Ofsted....whether online or in paper form...not sure how long we need to keep them for But we must keep a record.

advise the mum to report this to her Cm and get them...please check this out but no one can refuse a parent the records of their child's progress....especially when a child is moving on elsewhere...I can't believe what I am reading
Are you concerned? can you ring this CM? I certainly would


There is widespread debate at present about 'working together' for the benefit of the children...something that has been embedded in EYFS since 2008 but often providers missed ...how it beats me ? she obviously has missed the 'working in partnership' bit!

so this cm's cannot decide to reinvent the EYFS ...if you know what I mean....neither can those who think that working together is now the latest fashion.

As with any child new attending your settings...previous records would help but if you do not have those...start again as it is very simple...even with someone else's records you would want to check they are 'correct'?
Some like to call them 'All about me'...others use the right terminology 'starting points' as per new inspection framework.

Let mum tell you where she thinks her child is in terms of progress...you do your own obs...use Development Matters as a guide for age and stage...then share with her
Give mum What to expect? When? ...the starting point really have to be a joint effort from parents and provider.

Once you have done so do not hesitate to meet with the parents and discuss the findings...we are obliged to 'intervene'...remember this child is coming up to the 2 year old progress check which is statutory and you will have to do if the child is with you then

I think the mum will only be grateful and you must put the child first.

Good luck

bunyip
11-04-2016, 10:33 AM
I agree with the vast bulk of Simona's PP, but the opening statement that "Children's records belong to the parents" is a bit too broad and needs to be handled with caution.

I know this looks like splitting hairs, but I think we need to assert our ownership rights to paperwork/records as well as being very aware of potential safeguarding risks in thinking everything we write about a child belongs to mum and dad. Some child records may cross-refer with other children: so allowing Billy Brown's mum access to that may infringe on the privacy/confidentiality rights of Susie Smith and her parents.

Parents have certain rights to access child records, but access is not the same as ownership. In fact the right of access under Data Protection are far more limited than what most people seem to think.

EYFS says a lot about information sharing in terms of "strong partnerships" and how practitioners "should discuss children's progress with parents" and so on. But the only child development documents on which EYFS states parents are entitled to a copy are Progress Check at Age Two (2.3 "provide parents with a short written summary") and EYFS Profile (2.6 - which is completed at the end of the EYFS stage, invariably by the school.)

Whilst I don't believe the parents of this mindee are entitled to the previous CM's records lock, stock and barrel, they should certainly be given a summary of EYFS progress, ages/stages, etc. at the very least. It would help if the OP (unless she has already done so) gets written permission from mum to request/share information from the previous CM then present this as further evidence that the previous CM should fulfill her duty to pass information on to the new CM. It might help if your county uses some sort of standard pro-forma document, such as the All About Me mentioned by Simona.

Simona
11-04-2016, 10:44 AM
Thanks for your reply Bunyip.

As far as I am concerned that is what I understood regarding children's progress records for the last 20+ years...that is why I said 'check it out'.

I have not seen any different directives on this and it may be useful to get this clarified.

Do people who use online systems not share records with parents, schools and other providers?

I believe our lovely Gyimah is consulting again on how to share such records in future.
I also think we may be talking about 2 different things : records of progress and other records which we keep in the course of the care to each child?

An example of what you say is the 'accidents records'...the other is any child protection records.

I will certainly look into this and all cms should must ensure what our ICO registration covers us for.

hulahoops
11-04-2016, 11:18 AM
I've just taken on a 30 month old girl. Her cm is starting maternity leave so she is here while her own cm is on maternity leave.
She has not been here long but I am concerned about her development. She says maybe 2 or 3 words only. She can point and grunt and she an understand things such as "where's your nose" etc. Trouble is, mum says she can't give me her book/diary/learning journey, as her cm has specifically asked her not to. While I'm tempted to just start again, and work out where her first steps are, It would be in the child's best interest if I could just carry on where she left off?*
Or am I wrong to want to see it? I feel uncomfortable at the moment to ask mum for her concerns if she has any. She hasn't told me of any concerns or developmental delay apart from she's not potty training yet. She does seem very "unlike" her peers.*
Just wondered if anyone had ideas?

S

Personally I'd just start off with her as I would with a child who has come straight from the parents and not from another setting. The other childminder might not want the way she does her paperwork sharing with another childminder as she might want it uniquely for her.
If you've not had her long I'd wait for a while before highlighting any concerns as it may be that the little girl just isn't playing ball with you yet. I wouldn't even be concerned that she isn't potty training at 30 months

hulahoops
11-04-2016, 11:21 AM
See....I'm thinking that too. I'd rather just know as surely this is best for the child. I will speak to mum at the weekend. If I'm still concerned I will contact the other cm. I just want to know what is best for the child. It may even be that I'm being paranoid and stupid and this paperwork will show that.
Anyway, if I continue to be worried, I will contact her. If it all blows up in my face, at least I can put my hand on my heart and say I was concerned about the child. Can't do more than that.
Ty for all your posts xxx

You will need mums permission to speak to the other cm about the child

hulahoops
11-04-2016, 11:27 AM
Children's records belong to the parents
we must pass them on when requested but we are, of course, entitled to keep a copy for our records and to evidence to Ofsted....whether online or in paper form...not sure how long we need to keep them for But we must keep a record.

advise the mum to report this to her Cm and get them...please check this out but no one can refuse a parent the records of their child's progress....especially when a child is moving on elsewhere...I can't believe what I am reading
Are you concerned? can you ring this CM? I certainly would

There is widespread debate at present about 'working together' for the benefit of the children...something that has been embedded in EYFS since 2008 but often providers missed ...how it beats me ? she obviously has missed the 'working in partnership' bit!

so this cm's cannot decide to reinvent the EYFS ...if you know what I mean....neither can those who think that working together is now the latest fashion.

As with any child new attending your settings...previous records would help but if you do not have those...start again as it is very simple...even with someone else's records you would want to check they are 'correct'?
Some like to call them 'All about me'...others use the right terminology 'starting points' as per new inspection framework.

Let mum tell you where she thinks her child is in terms of progress...you do your own obs...use Development Matters as a guide for age and stage...then share with her
Give mum What to expect? When? ...the starting point really have to be a joint effort from parents and provider.

Once you have done so do not hesitate to meet with the parents and discuss the findings...we are obliged to 'intervene'...remember this child is coming up to the 2 year old progress check which is statutory and you will have to do if the child is with you then

I think the mum will only be grateful and you must put the child first.

Good luck

We don't need to keep a copy of a learning journal though. In fact we don't even have to do a written learning journal.

Simona
11-04-2016, 11:34 AM
We don't need to keep a copy of a learning journal though. In fact we don't even have to do a written learning journal.

Yes I am aware of no need for LJs.....we all do different systems but have mostly opted for LJs online or otherwise.

I have read here we do not need to keep a record of LJs...all I have said is 'check it out'...I have heard differently but it is up to each cm to understand what the requirements are.
In addition Ofsted recommends keeping records for a reasonable time...what do these include? what are parents' rights in terms of records we hold?
we know how we can use photos when a child leaves us as long as parents are aware.
we know we have a data protection responsibility ...is there anything else we need to look into?

Worth putting one's mind at rest but I will follow it up

mookie
11-04-2016, 11:40 AM
Thanks for everyone's input. I agree with many but personally whatever 'should ' be done etc etc....surely above and beyond everything is the 'child comes first?' Surely what is best for any child is at that heart of what we do???
That said, mum has now got back to me and has a copy of the little girls next steps and her cm has told her 'apparently' that she hasn't done a 2 year check for the child.
Maybe this could go someway to explain the situation?
Again, thank you everyone. I'm happy that I've covered what I believe to be right x

Simona
11-04-2016, 11:48 AM
Thanks for everyone's input. I agree with many but personally whatever 'should ' be done etc etc....surely above and beyond everything is the 'child comes first?' Surely what is best for any child is at that heart of what we do???
That said, mum has now got back to me and has a copy of the little girls next steps and her cm has told her 'apparently' that she hasn't done a 2 year check for the child.
Maybe this could go someway to explain the situation?
Again, thank you everyone. I'm happy that I've covered what I believe to be right x

Absolutely correct...records are done for the benefit of the child to highlight progress and also raise concerns where necessary

My apologies as I said this child was coming up to 2 in a previous comment...in fact the child is already 2 and the previous cm should have records of how she was going to produce a Progress check...that is a statutory record we must all do.

Hope it will work well for you.

hulahoops
11-04-2016, 01:25 PM
Yes I am aware of no need for LJs.....we all do different systems but have mostly opted for LJs online or otherwise.

I have read here we do not need to keep a record of LJs...all I have said is 'check it out'...I have heard differently but it is up to each cm to understand what the requirements are.
In addition Ofsted recommends keeping records for a reasonable time...what do these include? what are parents' rights in terms of records we hold?
we know how we can use photos when a child leaves us as long as parents are aware.
we know we have a data protection responsibility ...is there anything else we need to look into?

Worth putting one's mind at rest but I will follow it up

Nut I keep my registers, accident and incident forms, contracts and child record forms.

Also what I meant was we don't have to do LJs in any form. It's not part of the welfare requirements. We just need to be able to demonstrate how well we know the children and how we plan for their development.
It's easier if it recorded somewhere and the parents love them but we don't need to do them do don't need to worry about keeping copies x

hulahoops
11-04-2016, 01:29 PM
Nut????? Sorry lol

Simona
11-04-2016, 01:43 PM
Nut I keep my registers, accident and incident forms, contracts and child record forms.

Also what I meant was we don't have to do LJs in any form. It's not part of the welfare requirements. We just need to be able to demonstrate how well we know the children and how we plan for their development.
It's easier if it recorded somewhere and the parents love them but we don't need to do them do don't need to worry about keeping copies x

I agree on the LJs...never done one in my entire career!

We might take a look at EYFS....information and records is a welfare requirement...pages 29-30 in particular...there are a lot of MUST in there
Must maintain records, must enable a regular flow of information between parents and, between providers ..etc etc.

Further down it states about accessibility, keeping them secure and on to Data Protection and Confidentiality
It goes on that parents must be given access to all records about their child.


I believe we all interpret the EYFS differently...as I said it is best to be sure about our own practice and finding out is not that difficult.

bunyip
11-04-2016, 06:34 PM
Parents have data rights on behalf of their child over information held on their child, and data held on the parents too. In this context, parents and mindees are regarded as 'data subjects'. These rights are enshrined in the ICO's '8 Principles' (used to be 7 principles, but an 8th was added in the hope of adding some security over international data transfer: probably not a regular issue for CMs.) Link: https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/data-protection-principles/

Broadly speaking, it means the parents are allowed reasonable access to make sure we hold data for the proper purposes we have stated in our ICO registration, and that data is accurate and not being misused, nor 'excessive' in terms of what we need to do the job. At no point does this imply the parents own that information.

It's pretty much the same as our medical records. We have rights over their storage and use, but they do not belong to us.

Simona
11-04-2016, 08:25 PM
Bunyip...I will look into this for my own practice. I have not had the time today ...I have been following events in the HoC and certain dodgy issues :rolleyes:

There are a couple of sources I want to check and, if necessary, I will also call the ICO.
I want to check on records storage and a few other points.

I agree about our medical records ...we can, however, request a copy of those if we wish...I know that for sure
Does it not follow that parents have a right to have a copy of what we keep on their children?
Information stored about parents is in the contract...which they must have a copy of.

Once I have clarification I will be happy

k1rstie
11-04-2016, 09:24 PM
Parents have data rights on behalf of their child over information held on their child, and data held on the parents too. In this context, parents and mindees are regarded as 'data subjects'. These rights are enshrined in the ICO's '8 Principles' (used to be 7 principles, but an 8th was added in the hope of adding some security over international data transfer: probably not a regular issue for CMs.) Link: https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/data-protection-principles/ Broadly speaking, it means the parents are allowed reasonable access to make sure we hold data for the proper purposes we have stated in our ICO registration, and that data is accurate and not being misused, nor 'excessive' in terms of what we need to do the job. At no point does this imply the parents own that information. It's pretty much the same as our medical records. We have rights over their storage and use, but they do not belong to us.

Thanks Bunyip. I was unaware of the new 8th principle, although I do remember reading about not sending information abroad. Will amend my policies.
Learnt something new today.

bunyip
12-04-2016, 08:50 AM
Thanks Bunyip. I was unaware of the new 8th principle, although I do remember reading about not sending information abroad. Will amend my policies.
Learnt something new today.

Yeah, principle 8 came as a shock to me.

Means I can no longer sell all my clients' personal data to those nice cold-callers and email scammers in Nigeria. :rolleyes:



At least my massive off-shore account in the Cayman Islands remains unaffected. :D

Simona
12-04-2016, 09:09 AM
https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organisations/register/2709/education-and-childcare.pdf

bunyip
12-04-2016, 09:27 AM
https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organisations/register/2709/education-and-childcare.pdf

Excellent. Thanks for that, Simona.

Btw, where do you find the time to read all this stuff? I've been the best part of a week working my way through Where's Spot? :p

k1rstie
12-04-2016, 11:55 AM
https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organisations/register/2709/education-and-childcare.pdf

Wow, what a great link. When we first started paying the ICO money, it was very vague, and unclear from the website what was required. Now an easily explained document.

Thank you Simona and Bunyip for the pointers.

BallyH
12-04-2016, 12:07 PM
Thank you for the update, links and advice.