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JCrakers
23-02-2016, 01:01 PM
Sorry for a variation question...im embarrassed asking but wanted to know everyone's thoughts :laughing: :blush:

If I have a 3.5yr old and a 18m old on a weds and have two enquires...

1 enquiry for a 18m old 9am-1pm
1 enquiry for a 3.5yr old 12pm-5pm

Could I take them both on with the hour overlap?

:huh:

loocyloo
23-02-2016, 01:28 PM
JCrackers - please empty your inbox - tried to message you :D xx

JCrakers
23-02-2016, 01:43 PM
JCrackers - please empty your inbox - tried to message you :D xx

ok I have :D

loocyloo
23-02-2016, 02:32 PM
ok I have :D

:laughing: just messaged you :D

sarah707
23-02-2016, 06:43 PM
No you can't have 2 new children for new business if they will take you over ratios... sorry x

Jessymax
23-02-2016, 07:34 PM
why don't u say yes ONLY if one gets picked up 30 mins earlier (12.30.. and other one gets dropped off 30 mins later.. 12.30.. then no over lap? x

Simona
24-02-2016, 09:29 AM
Why not look at Ofsted Gill Jones's public statement on Cms ratios?
I don't think cms have 'variations' anymore.

check it out by calling Ofsted or clarify this with the DfE itself.

JCrakers
24-02-2016, 10:44 AM
Why not look at Ofsted Gill Jones's public statement on Cms ratios?
I don't think cms have 'variations' anymore.

check it out by calling Ofsted or clarify this with the DfE itself.

I've tried ringing Ofsted in the past Simona, they are no help which I'm always so confused even after years of this. That's why I always come on here for advice and different peoples thoughts because Ofsted washed their hands of it years ago. There should be a clear yes or no guide.
I've had many variations over the years but when one comes up that your not quite sure about, its so annoying to let someone down just for the sake of 60minutes.

Next week I have 5 under 5 because Mum is going into work for 2hrs...there's no problem with this as I've RA'ed but then I'm stumped on what to do for the 60minutes. :rolleyes:

Simona
24-02-2016, 12:18 PM
Thank you for your reply JCrackers.
At all the London OBC meetings I have attended I raised this issue.
At the last OBC in January I also spoke to the HMI when she left the room but was available for further questions.

My understanding is that cms can call Ofsted and get support ...also she recommended to look at Gill Jones' statement.
I believe Gill has also recommended cms let her know if they are confused.
Do you have access to her statement?
Are you able to attend the nearest OBC to you?

If you feel that Ofsted are not helping you need to raise this with them or the DfE since they write the EYFS...that is why I keep suggesting to cms 'check it out' with the depts. that are the official ones to offer advice....as you are correct the forum has differing opinions

All this forum can do is offer support to cms so they can understand the ratio issue

I can see this issue is very frustrating and there are several interpretations....all I go by is the DfE explanation of this in their several emails
I also go by cms who seem to have no problem with this at all.

Cms do not have variations anymore ...they are allowed 6 children under 8 as per certificate and you know the rest about RA etc etc.

It maybe that our representing associations may need to push for more clarity in the EYFS...it needs to be raised with them

I will continue to raise this in the hope the EYFS may be made clearer in future...hope never dies :thumbsup:

JCrakers
24-02-2016, 12:40 PM
Thank you for your reply JCrackers.
At all the London OBC meetings I have attended I raised this issue.
At the last OBC in January I also spoke to the HMI when she left the room but was available for further questions.

My understanding is that cms can call Ofsted and get support ...also she recommended to look at Gill Jones' statement.
I believe Gill has also recommended cms let her know if they are confused.
Do you have access to her statement?
Are you able to attend the nearest OBC to you?

If you feel that Ofsted are not helping you need to raise this with them or the DfE since they write the EYFS...that is why I keep suggesting to cms 'check it out' with the depts. that are the official ones to offer advice....as you are correct the forum has differing opinions

All this forum can do is offer support to cms so they can understand the ratio issue

I can see this issue is very frustrating and there are several interpretations....all I go by is the DfE explanation of this in their several emails
I also go by cms who seem to have no problem with this at all.

Cms do not have variations anymore ...they are allowed 6 children under 8 as per certificate and you know the rest about RA etc etc.

It maybe that our representing associations may need to push for more clarity in the EYFS...it needs to be raised with them

I will continue to raise this in the hope the EYFS may be made clearer in future...hope never dies :thumbsup:

I don't have access to her statement, where can I find it

Simona
24-02-2016, 01:15 PM
The message was on this forum as I recall posting it several times.

It was made in June 2015 at a Pacey conference and stresses cms seek help if they receive confusing advice...so again it needs to be checked out each time if anyone is confused.
It also stresses that the needs of all children need to be met when considering ratios.


Here it is and I assume it is still valid as is the DfE clarification on the Foundation Years' website...check this out too if you are unsure.

At the recent Pacey conference Ofsted have clarified the issue of the ratios for CMs
This is the message which also addresses 'continuity of care' and when this could be considered by a cm who wished to apply it

][B]''Following on from PACEY’s spring conference, where the issue of child ratios for childminders was raised, Ofsted has helped clarify the issue and has shared the following guidance, which has also been given to their inspectors and helpline staff:

The EYFS provides the standard ratios but also recognises circumstances where these ratios can change so that the needs of children and their families are met. Paragraphs 3.30 and 3.42 advise that: ‘exceptionally, and where the quality of care and safety and security of children is maintained, exceptions to the ratios may be made’. For example exceptions can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies or when caring for their own baby. There may also be other adjustments to the ratios, for example where children need continuity of care.

Inspectors must ensure that the quality of care is not compromised by a childminder caring for more children and that they meet the needs of all the children in their care. Exceeding the ratio is not a breach in itself unless the childminder is failing to meet the needs of all children.

The Department for Education (DfE) has published some frequently asked questions (FAQs) which provide further guidance.

If you receive information that is different to the above guidance, Ofsted has advised that you take the name of the person, the date and time of the call and report it to them to investigate further''

Further information can be found on the 4 Children Foundation Years website under the FAQs section
Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.foundationyears.org.uk/2015/03/frequently-asked-questions-childminder-ratios/)

JCrakers
24-02-2016, 01:20 PM
The message was on this forum as I recall posting it several times.

It was made in June 2015 at a Pacey conference and stresses cms seek help if they receive confusing advice...so again it needs to be checked out each time if anyone is confused.
It also stresses that the needs of all children need to be met when considering ratios.


Here it is and I assume it is still valid as is the DfE clarification on the Foundation Years' website...check this out too if you are unsure.

At the recent Pacey conference Ofsted have clarified the issue of the ratios for CMs
This is the message which also addresses 'continuity of care' and when this could be considered by a cm who wished to apply it

][B]''Following on from PACEY’s spring conference, where the issue of child ratios for childminders was raised, Ofsted has helped clarify the issue and has shared the following guidance, which has also been given to their inspectors and helpline staff:

The EYFS provides the standard ratios but also recognises circumstances where these ratios can change so that the needs of children and their families are met. Paragraphs 3.30 and 3.42 advise that: ‘exceptionally, and where the quality of care and safety and security of children is maintained, exceptions to the ratios may be made’. For example exceptions can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies or when caring for their own baby. There may also be other adjustments to the ratios, for example where children need continuity of care.

Inspectors must ensure that the quality of care is not compromised by a childminder caring for more children and that they meet the needs of all the children in their care. Exceeding the ratio is not a breach in itself unless the childminder is failing to meet the needs of all children.

The Department for Education (DfE) has published some frequently asked questions (FAQs) which provide further guidance.

If you receive information that is different to the above guidance, Ofsted has advised that you take the name of the person, the date and time of the call and report it to them to investigate further''

Further information can be found on the 4 Children Foundation Years website under the FAQs section
Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.foundationyears.org.uk/2015/03/frequently-asked-questions-childminder-ratios/)

Sorry, must have missed it...im not on here everyday :)

Thanks

Rick
24-02-2016, 01:29 PM
We've had something similar come up before and I will say the same again.

The EYFS states a max of 3 under 5's (unless there is a continuity of care aspect). Taking on a fourth child who is not related to a child at your setting or an existing child who has extended hours goes against the EYFS which is a statutory document. I don't believe taking on new business is an exceptional circumstance.....there is no detriment to that new child, they simply find another option.

If you take on a fourth child you must be prepared to explain yourself to an inspector if asked.

Simona
24-02-2016, 03:49 PM
Yes Rick....that is why each cms must check the information out as every case is different.

This issue has come up hundreds of times in this forum and it is up to each cm to make sure any change in ratios suits their families, needs and the care of the other children....all the members can do is support a cm on this
I am unclear who 'we' is in your comment.. And it is not what we personally believe but what is allowed in the EYFS

Again we all need to check it out from official sources and , of course, at inspection a cm has to account for any changes in his/her ratios....there are hundreds of cms who have done so and passed their inspection with flying colours when the care of all children has been appropriate.

The advice is for cms to attend OBC or write to the DfE if unsure....or refer the matter to Gill Jones at Ofsted....I think her role in Ofsted is to be trusted to be able to clarify.

JCrakers
24-02-2016, 05:39 PM
Ok, I know its tiresome and reading a couple of responses I know some people are rolling their eyes as its a question that shouldn't have been asked, but this variation thing is a load of rubbish.... there I've said it!!

It enables childminders to have more than 3 but doesn't help others who just want a slight overlap. A childminder down the road has 4 under 5 everyday due to a parent adding hours, so 40hrs of having 4 children and then it doesn't allow for someone to overlap for an hour.

Its complete rubbish and someone needs to look at it to help parents find childcare and childminders make a living. I have a space available and it's not particularly in my interest to take on someone who only wants 5hrs as I make a loss of around £75pm but with another parent who also needs the other half of the day is perfect.

Anyway...i'll find a solution and wont come on here to ask again as I know its tiring

Simona
24-02-2016, 06:52 PM
Ok, I know its tiresome and reading a couple of responses I know some people are rolling their eyes as its a question that shouldn't have been asked, but this variation thing is a load of rubbish.... there I've said it!!

It enables childminders to have more than 3 but doesn't help others who just want a slight overlap. A childminder down the road has 4 under 5 everyday due to a parent adding hours, so 40hrs of having 4 children and then it doesn't allow for someone to overlap for an hour.

Its complete rubbish and someone needs to look at it to help parents find childcare and childminders make a living. I have a space available and it's not particularly in my interest to take on someone who only wants 5hrs as I make a loss of around £75pm but with another parent who also needs the other half of the day is perfect.

Anyway...i'll find a solution and wont come on here to ask again as I know its tiring

I personally don't think it is tiring at all.....frustrating yes for those cms trying to do the right thing
It is important...vital maybe...that this issue is sorted and stops giving cms worries
The ratio for other providers is very clear in the EYFS and it should be so for cms too....compared their ratio section which is pages long to cms which is a few paragraphs ....and badly written too

Where does it say you cannot overlap?
Cms need not lose heart on this and keep the pressure to get it clarified
It would be in the interest of all parties to find a solution considering that childcare is in deep trouble with a severe lack of spaces as reported today....and the promise of double free hours

I won't give up trying to get it sorted....hope you don't give up either :thumbsup:

natlou82
24-02-2016, 07:52 PM
I completely agree JCrackers. I thought I was going to be in a situation of having 4 under 5 for 2 hrs on a Friday (not every Friday due to shift patterns) and only for 2 months! So short term and I didn't want to mess any parents around on this issue. I contacted Ofsted and the response was refer to EYFS. I believe this is an exceptional circumstance but would an inspector agree? I breathed a sigh of relief when shift child no longer needs Friday's! Problem solved! But I hate all the confusion and stress around this issue. It does seem ridiculous that you may not be able to have the the overlap whereas some mindees have 4 full time.

Simona
25-02-2016, 10:10 AM
I completely agree JCrackers. I thought I was going to be in a situation of having 4 under 5 for 2 hrs on a Friday (not every Friday due to shift patterns) and only for 2 months! So short term and I didn't want to mess any parents around on this issue. I contacted Ofsted and the response was refer to EYFS. I believe this is an exceptional circumstance but would an inspector agree? I breathed a sigh of relief when shift child no longer needs Friday's! Problem solved! But I hate all the confusion and stress around this issue. It does seem ridiculous that you may not be able to have the the overlap whereas some mindees have 4 full time.

If you feel you have not been helped/supported it would it be useful to get clarification on this issue should this happen again in future.

My understanding is that inspector will look at your professional judgement if you have changed your ratios, look at evidence then judge the care of all children at inspection
Would the EY team help you if you approached them?

Having spoken at length with the DfE in the past and reading their emails I feel there should be no confusion
Ofsted have also clarified what Cms can do, when and why

My point is that, after nearly 4 years since the EYFS was reviewed, this issue continues to cause a lot of worry to cms and it needs addressing.
I think there are cms here who have successfully increased their ratio...I personally know of several who also achieved excellent grades at inspection.

All we can do is to keep trying on this issue.

Rick
27-02-2016, 05:51 PM
I personally don't think it is tiring at all.....frustrating yes for those cms trying to do the right thing
It is important...vital maybe...that this issue is sorted and stops giving cms worries
The ratio for other providers is very clear in the EYFS and it should be so for cms too....compared their ratio section which is pages long to cms which is a few paragraphs ....and badly written too

Where does it say you cannot overlap?
Cms need not lose heart on this and keep the pressure to get it clarified
It would be in the interest of all parties to find a solution considering that childcare is in deep trouble with a severe lack of spaces as reported today....and the promise of double free hours

I won't give up trying to get it sorted....hope you don't give up either :thumbsup:

In fairness it doesn't say you can overlap, it says a max of 3 under 5. If you take on a fourth child that has no existing relation to your business you are not complying with the wording in the EYFS. Of course we can interpret this any way we wish but I feel the wording as it stands does not allow any overlap.

I had a message today from a concerned childminder who had been downgraded when applying continuity of care correctly for existing children so currently what hope is there that they would accept something against the wording in the EYFS?

Simona
28-02-2016, 08:05 AM
In fairness it doesn't say you can overlap, it says a max of 3 under 5. If you take on a fourth child that has no existing relation to your business you are not complying with the wording in the EYFS. Of course we can interpret this any way we wish but I feel the wording as it stands does not allow any overlap.

I had a message today from a concerned childminder who had been downgraded when applying continuity of care correctly for existing children so currently what hope is there that they would accept something against the wording in the EYFS?

If cms were to ring the DfE all the ins and outs of CMs ratios would be explained....their emails to me make it very clear what Cms can do

I am unclear why cms approach you and not those who can sort this matter....were does the EYFS not mention overlap?

Do you recall Truss's statement about cms and 'overlap' just before the EYFS was updated in 2012?...I do and somewhere in the archives you will find it for reference

I have spoken to Ofsted several times ...and DfE at length and also inspectors themselves and they have confirmed cms have been downgraded at inspection because the care of all children was the issue...not the variations itself....please get that checked

I think it is time to stop confusing cms about this ratio saga....here in this Forum is the only place I read confusing advice, cms who give up considering the ratio because Ofsted will not agree...where doe sthe EYFS say so?
there are cms who have used the ratio properly and kept their grades

Rick...you said you would continue lobbying Ofsted ....maybe you could contact Gill Jones now and put the case to her , after all Nick Hudson did not really make this issue clearer....or you could encourage members here to attend OBC and put the question to Ofsted themselves.

I am unclear why cms do not direct their worries to DfE or Ofsted when ratios are causing them anxiety, worry and confusion....those are the official places to get clarification

Once again get clarification as it is not a case of the EYFS wording...it is a question of children receiving good care....check it out

I am absolutely clear on ratios...when I read comments here is enough to cause confusion even to those who have no problem with this issue...time to sort it out!

Rick
28-02-2016, 08:34 AM
If cms were to ring the DfE all the ins and outs of CMs ratios would be explained....their emails to me make it very clear what Cms can do

I am unclear why cms approach you and not those who can sort this matter....were does the EYFS not mention overlap?

Do you recall Truss's statement about cms and 'overlap' just before the EYFS was updated in 2012?...I do and somewhere in the archives you will find it for reference

I have spoken to Ofsted several times ...and DfE at length and also inspectors themselves and they have confirmed cms have been downgraded at inspection because the care of all children was the issue...not the variations itself....please get that checked

I think it is time to stop confusing cms about this ratio saga....here in this Forum is the only place I read confusing advice, cms who give up considering the ratio because Ofsted will not agree...where doe sthe EYFS say so?
there are cms who have used the ratio properly and kept their grades

Rick...you said you would continue lobbying Ofsted ....maybe you could contact Gill Jones now and put the case to her , after all Nick Hudson did not really make this issue clearer....or you could encourage members here to attend OBC and put the question to Ofsted themselves.

I am unclear why cms do not direct their worries to DfE or Ofsted when ratios are causing them anxiety, worry and confusion....those are the official places to get clarification

Once again get clarification as it is not a case of the EYFS wording...it is a question of children receiving good care....check it out

I am absolutely clear on ratios...when I read comments here is enough to cause confusion even to those who have no problem with this issue...time to sort it out!

I think we will have to agree to disagree. You are allowed a max of 3 under 5. How does that mean you can take on a fourth? Where is the exceptional circumstance? That fourth child doesn't exist as far as your business is concerned. Continuity of care makes sense because you are preventing upheaval for a settled child at your setting. An unrelated fourth child finds an alternative childminder with space in their under 5's.

Simona
28-02-2016, 12:10 PM
I think we will have to agree to disagree. You are allowed a max of 3 under 5. How does that mean you can take on a fourth? Where is the exceptional circumstance? That fourth child doesn't exist as far as your business is concerned. Continuity of care makes sense because you are preventing upheaval for a settled child at your setting. An unrelated fourth child finds an alternative childminder with space in their under 5's.

I don't think it is a question of agree/disagree but to interpret the EYFS correctly and that is why I keep saying contact DfE or attend OBC to put questions to them directly.
Each case is different to the cm it applies to and the family and circumstances.

sarah707
28-02-2016, 08:02 PM
Childminders come to admin because we know the right answers...

They don't go to Ofsted because Ofsted do not give answers... they are referred back to the Eyfs.

They don't go to DfE because DfE have provided guidance and that's all they will say on the matter.

Admin have spoken to DfE and Ofsted about variations at length - and raised the issues through the Ofsted Big Conversation.

The Foundation Years advice was provided as a direct result of OBC lobbying for more guidance.

Admin on this group will not give advice to our members that will potentially lead them to being downgraded for over-minding. It is not our registrations at risk if the wrong advice is followed.

We refer to this guidance - Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.foundationyears.org.uk/2015/03/frequently-asked-questions-childminder-ratios/http://www.foundationyears.org.uk/2015/03/frequently-asked-questions-childminder-ratios/).

We refer to the Eyfs - EYFS Statutory Framework (http://www.foundationyears.org.uk/eyfs-statutory-framework/)

We also have other letters from Ofsted on our Facebook group which are useful for reference.

We will never tell a colleague to do something we know is wrong - and taking on a new child to then have 4 under 5 when the new child is new business is wrong.

I hope this clarifies the situation. Thank you.

k1rstie
28-02-2016, 08:47 PM
I have a friend who recently took a new child on. I was asked to take the child, but I had 3 children over some of the required days, so I did not have a space, and declined.

I said that I didn't know she had a space. She replied that she didn't really. She implied that the girl started on the Thursday on the first week, ( when she did have a proper space), and then started two weeks later for 5 days on continuity of care! Yeah, right!!!

I think this 'continuity of care' change happens a lot, and is helped when your friends are doing it as well.

Simona
29-02-2016, 08:09 AM
The people who know the right answers are the DfE....who write the EYFS... and also Ofsted because they inspect and judge.

Contrary to your comment Sarah...Ofsted have helped to sort this out several times and Ofsted Gill Jones has intervened too.
I have been given plenty of answers which has made ratios very clear since 2012

The DfE have done the same...extensive email communication proves that ratios are really clear if cms read and understand the wording.
I have not heard from one cm here who has tried to contact the DfE....or the childcare minister? or 4 Children who publish information on behalf of the DfE?

I also would expect an inspector to know about ratios....having asked I got a reply that confirmed both Ofsted and DfE statements.

Admin are not qualified to tell cms when ratios can be applied...that is up to each individual cm to understand and then prove to Ofsted their reasons and prove that all children are receiving the same care.

Questions have been put to Ofsted at the London OBC too....your area is not the only OBC attended where the issue is raised

While I understand that cms are careful when applying changes to their number ...this site seems to add to the confusion...I find the advice confusing at times.

So my advice to cms is if you are not sure ...check it with the right people, your association and then the decision is yours.

Good luck!

Jessymax
29-02-2016, 09:06 AM
just to throw something else in im sure people abuse the continuity of care thing all the time if u have 2 eyfs spaces and take ona 3rd child whose parent for example is pregnant and u know in the future they will put them with u which wil take u over your 3 under 5 even tho its sibling exception surely you should say no in the first place to first child?

JCrakers
29-02-2016, 09:31 AM
But, the problem I have is I'm not taking on a 4th. I've got two equally part time enquiries. 1 parent wants 8-1pm and the other wants 12-5pm. It should be simple but its not.

It should be easy to have an overlap of just an hour when my friend down the road has 4 mindees for 40hrs. I'm confident that for that hour I can offer care to all but the rules don't allow.

I'm not doing it for the money as there seems to be a lot of enquiries out there atm....So, I shall be turning both away and waiting for a full-timer. The only loss is on the parent who will find it hard to find a space as we are all full.

(The afterschool club has just filled their last two spaces for Sept!!! That's how busy we all are around here.)

hectors house
29-02-2016, 09:38 AM
I have decided (and this is my decision and I'm not endorsing that others follow me) that I will welcome back a little girl who went to India for 4 months for the winter, I have filled her space with a baby as I wasn't paid a retainer, but the mum has asked if she can return in 3 weeks time as while they have been away the parents have separated and this little girl will need some stability in her life when she returns. This will mean that I will have 4 children on a Monday & Friday and I am prepared to face the consequences if there are any as if many will remember 2 years ago if we hadn't opposed it in Liz Truss "More Great Childcare" we were going to be allowed to have 4 children under 5.

I am part of a very successful network where parents can post an enquiry on our website asking for childcare - we are currently getting 10 enquiries a month and we are all full - what are parent's supposed to do?

Mouse
29-02-2016, 10:48 AM
if many will remember 2 years ago if we hadn't opposed it in Liz Truss "More Great Childcare" we were going to be allowed to have 4 children under 5.



I didn't oppose it! I was one of the very few who was looking forward to being allowed 4 under 5s and was bitterly disappointed when the decision was overturned.

I do wonder if they'll have to reconsider it when the new 30 hours of funding comes into force.

mumofone
29-02-2016, 11:01 AM
But, the problem I have is I'm not taking on a 4th. I've got two equally part time enquiries. 1 parent wants 8-1pm and the other wants 12-5pm. It should be simple but its not. It should be easy to have an overlap of just an hour when my friend down the road has 4 mindees for 40hrs. I'm confident that for that hour I can offer care to all but the rules don't allow. I'm not doing it for the money as there seems to be a lot of enquiries out there atm....So, I shall be turning both away and waiting for a full-timer. The only loss is on the parent who will find it hard to find a space as we are all full. (The afterschool club has just filled their last two spaces for Sept!!! That's how busy we all are around here.)

How many kids can an after school club take on?

JCrakers
29-02-2016, 11:11 AM
How many kids can an after school club take on?

I'm not sure...we have 2 afterschool clubs. They are both nurseries, one picks up about 7 children a night in a van and the other is held in the school hall. They probably have about 15-25 spaces maybe?
I had a Mum round here last week looking for afterschool care for her 2 children from Sept. I couldn't give an answer until April (school decisions) She was happy to be put on my waiting list until April but she then rang the afterschool club and they said she had taken the last two spaces....so she was lucky...others, who have left it too late, wont be as lucky.

Jessymax
29-02-2016, 12:01 PM
Jcrackers, I would say yes and just RA it. Or ask the morning one if they could collect at 12.30 instead then it only half n hour like hectors house said what she has chosen to do isn't allowed but she is doing it (as would I ) we are only human and have to try make the right decisions for ourselves and the children x

hectors house
29-02-2016, 12:43 PM
I didn't oppose it! I was one of the very few who was looking forward to being allowed 4 under 5s and was bitterly disappointed when the decision was overturned.

I do wonder if they'll have to reconsider it when the new 30 hours of funding comes into force.

I did oppose it but only because the Nursery ratios were going to change too - to something ridiculous meaning that there wouldn't have been any children left for childminders to mind. I am quite capable of managing 4 children under 5, providing of course that it's the right combination of children - as sometimes 4 mixed ages of children can be easier than 2 under 18 months!

Simona
29-02-2016, 08:14 PM
May I ask once again where does it say cms cannot overlap....or iwhere does it say it is against the rules?
I just want to be clear where cms are coming from when I make more enquiries
Cms must look at their registration certificate which will say a cm can care for 6 children under 8 etc etc....then look at EYFS carefully

Has anyone found Truss' speech on cms overlap? Sorry had no time today as Ofsted has decided to update half their guidance :mad: and have been looking at that
Continuity of care...how can it be abused if the ratio falls within the exceptional circumstances?

Seems to me this issue is going to last longer than the 100 years war!
On we soldier...more questions to ask! Worth trying the DFE again I suppose....better look at those dozen of emails I got with reams of information!

Simona
29-02-2016, 08:24 PM
I did oppose it but only because the Nursery ratios were going to change too - to something ridiculous meaning that there wouldn't have been any children left for childminders to mind. I am quite capable of managing 4 children under 5, providing of course that it's the right combination of children - as sometimes 4 mixed ages of children can be easier than 2 under 18 months!

There will always be plenty of children for cms....due to the acute shortage in LAs, the govt's own made mess and the 30 hours...without cms the rest of the sector will struggle to deliver it....I would bet a few ££££ on that! :thumbsup:

The ratio for nurseries has not changed ....it is 1:13 with a graduate but nurseries are reluctant to listen to Gyimah' constant moan on this issue...or follow DFE's flawed advice on how to run their business by reducing costs with higher ratios ....politicians just have not got a clue about EY!

JCrakers
01-03-2016, 07:36 AM
Problem is Simona, Ofsted/DofE are constantly changing things, no one can keep up with it all :rolleyes:

Rick
01-03-2016, 07:54 AM
But, the problem I have is I'm not taking on a 4th. I've got two equally part time enquiries. 1 parent wants 8-1pm and the other wants 12-5pm. It should be simple but its not.

It should be easy to have an overlap of just an hour when my friend down the road has 4 mindees for 40hrs. I'm confident that for that hour I can offer care to all but the rules don't allow.

I'm not doing it for the money as there seems to be a lot of enquiries out there atm....So, I shall be turning both away and waiting for a full-timer. The only loss is on the parent who will find it hard to find a space as we are all full.

(The afterschool club has just filled their last two spaces for Sept!!! That's how busy we all are around here.)

Surely if you already have two under 5 and then take on the other two, that hour between 12 and 1 you have four and it's new business. I don't believe it's an exceptional circumstance and you can have a max of 3 under 5, clearly stated in the EYFS. The cm down the road presumably has four under continuity of care which has meant she hasn't had to give notice to a settled mindee. One of your potential mindees can find alternative care. COC is not there to find a back door to taking on four, but to prevent upheaval for a settled family.

Simona
01-03-2016, 08:54 AM
JCrackers....I know I am wasting my time on this but here we go.

Sorry to disappoint but I have found both Ofsted and DfE have been 'very consistent' when it comes to this ratio issue
I have spoken/written several times and the answer has always been the same and very clear.
Where is the evidence that they are inconsistent?

I have clarification on the issues I raised: continuity of care, new business and overlap...all in black and white...very clear

I looked at Ofsted and DfE emails again....consistent in their statement and clarification in over 20 pages.

Sarah says the DfE do not answer...20 pages of emails say the opposite
Sarah says Ofsted do not give answers...I have answers in black and white plus those I asked at OBC....as have other cms who have queried this issue so they have consistently answered the questions

The Foundation Years website put a FAQS on their website following DfE and Ofsted decision...confirmed in their email
There is apparently a statement/letters on the forum FB page....not any use mentioning that to me as I do not use FB, many cms do not use FB and thousands do not use this forum at all

No one tells cms what to do...the responsibility is theirs...confirmed in the emails very very clearly

I agree things are changing all the time but this ratio has remained the same since 2012 and has remained a problem only in this forum as others are very clear.

What I suggest is ....If unclear 'check it out' for yourself...social media is not the answer and no one acts on our behalf.

The responsibility for deciding on ratio is that of the cm who is considering it....no one can advise them or tell them what to do or not to do because it is individual to them

Rick quotes the cm down the road...you cannot compare with anyone because ratios are unique to each cm and their circumstances.

My question previously was where does it say anything about 'overlap'?...it does not!
out of the 700 members who have read this thread no one seems to have come forward

where does it say anything about 'new business'?....it does not
Continuity of care is 'an example given' in all cases by both Ofsted and DfE

My suggestion is that cms try again to contact the DfE if they really feel confused and the issue is important to their business

I will certainly continue to do so ....so off I go.....it will never end and it looks like it is a subject close to your heart too.
Good luck!:thumbsup:

JCrakers
01-03-2016, 11:29 AM
Surely if you already have two under 5 and then take on the other two, that hour between 12 and 1 you have four and it's new business. I don't believe it's an exceptional circumstance and you can have a max of 3 under 5, clearly stated in the EYFS. The cm down the road presumably has four under continuity of care which has meant she hasn't had to give notice to a settled mindee. One of your potential mindees can find alternative care. COC is not there to find a back door to taking on four, but to prevent upheaval for a settled family.

There's no back door open here? Like I said, there's nothing in it for me...it's not the money. It just seems a shame to turn 1 or both away that's all, just for the sake of 60mins. Like I said I could quite happily say no to both....i'll get a full timer no problem but wanted to help them both out.

Although, from a business point of view ....which we are trying to run, taking 1 family on for 5hrs and leaving half a day unfilled isn't good business sense?! So finding two families that slot into each other doesn't come around very often.


I've had 4 before while a Mum went to an hrs meeting on her day off...so really it's no different.

Rick
01-03-2016, 01:21 PM
JCrackers....I know I am wasting my time on this but here we go.

Sorry to disappoint but I have found both Ofsted and DfE have been 'very consistent' when it comes to this ratio issue
I have spoken/written several times and the answer has always been the same and very clear.
Where is the evidence that they are inconsistent?

I have clarification on the issues I raised: continuity of care, new business and overlap...all in black and white...very clear

I looked at Ofsted and DfE emails again....consistent in their statement and clarification in over 20 pages.

Sarah says the DfE do not answer...20 pages of emails say the opposite
Sarah says Ofsted do not give answers...I have answers in black and white plus those I asked at OBC....as have other cms who have queried this issue so they have consistently answered the questions

The Foundation Years website put a FAQS on their website following DfE and Ofsted decision...confirmed in their email
There is apparently a statement/letters on the forum FB page....not any use mentioning that to me as I do not use FB, many cms do not use FB and thousands do not use this forum at all

No one tells cms what to do...the responsibility is theirs...confirmed in the emails very very clearly

I agree things are changing all the time but this ratio has remained the same since 2012 and has remained a problem only in this forum as others are very clear.

What I suggest is ....If unclear 'check it out' for yourself...social media is not the answer and no one acts on our behalf.

The responsibility for deciding on ratio is that of the cm who is considering it....no one can advise them or tell them what to do or not to do because it is individual to them

Rick quotes the cm down the road...you cannot compare with anyone because ratios are unique to each cm and their circumstances.

My question previously was where does it say anything about 'overlap'?...it does not!
out of the 700 members who have read this thread no one seems to have come forward

where does it say anything about 'new business'?....it does not
Continuity of care is 'an example given' in all cases by both Ofsted and DfE

My suggestion is that cms try again to contact the DfE if they really feel confused and the issue is important to their business

I will certainly continue to do so ....so off I go.....it will never end and it looks like it is a subject close to your heart too.
Good luck!:thumbsup:

My last post about this and I promise I'm not trying to be argumentative.

The EYFS does not mention overlap, perhaps because the implication is in max 3 under 5 unless exceptional circumstances. It does not need to mention overlap. It cannot list everything you can and can't do.

It does not mention new business because by implication max 3 under 5 covers it with the added clause of exceptional circumstances. The EYFS should either remove this reference to a maximum of under 5's or state that you can exceed it with a risk assessment or based on a cm's ability....it does not say this so how can it be permissible to ignore the reference. You choose not to ignore the 6 under 8 reference.

I would love the wording to be looked at carefully by DfE rather than remain largely the same during the update in 2014. Why not lobby for a mention of overlap if it is allowed (how long is an overlap......an inspector says your overlap is too long and downgrades you....if we do not get more solid information how can a cm risk an overlap?).

I agree with you that it's up to the individual cm but if we are only looking at the wording in the EYFS it suggests no overlap or exceeding of 3 under 5's by implication. It would be wrong for cms to assume something is permissible just because the EYFS does not say we can't.

greenfaerie
01-03-2016, 03:55 PM
I think that there should be an allowed overlap, it is rubbish. There should be a defined 1 hour overlap allowed where children are leaving and arriving for morning and afternoon sessions. Though I wouldn't do it unless it was written in black and white in the EYFS. They should add it, and soon.

Also, adding to people abusing the COC. I heard of a Childminder signing a child up in the Summer, but them not attending (or paying) and then having a baby sibling (and the child) start in September, the whole thing being "justified" as being COC. Urgh.

Simona
01-03-2016, 05:32 PM
My last post about this and I promise I'm not trying to be argumentative.

The EYFS does not mention overlap, perhaps because the implication is in max 3 under 5 unless exceptional circumstances. It does not need to mention overlap. It cannot list everything you can and can't do.

It does not mention new business because by implication max 3 under 5 covers it with the added clause of exceptional circumstances. The EYFS should either remove this reference to a maximum of under 5's or state that you can exceed it with a risk assessment or based on a cm's ability....it does not say this so how can it be permissible to ignore the reference. You choose not to ignore the 6 under 8 reference.

I would love the wording to be looked at carefully by DfE rather than remain largely the same during the update in 2014. Why not lobby for a mention of overlap if it is allowed (how long is an overlap......an inspector says your overlap is too long and downgrades you....if we do not get more solid information how can a cm risk an overlap?).

I agree with you that it's up to the individual cm but if we are only looking at the wording in the EYFS it suggests no overlap or exceeding of 3 under 5's by implication. It would be wrong for cms to assume something is permissible just because the EYFS does not say we can't.

Thanks for your reply Rick...it is unlikely you will ever get to see the DfE emails/clarification so I would suggest you contact them and see if the answer to you is different.

Sorry but it is all to do with the EYFS and cms ratios and I think you see it in a different way.....the issue has never been and never will be a problem to me but I have done my best to get it clarified...and I am as clear as I can be.

So good luck to all those Cms here you are still confused and will continue to ask about ratios and argue from all angles...get frustrated and blame Ofsted and DfE....the answer is there :thumbsup: