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Simona
25-01-2016, 08:34 AM
HMRC tells childminders to repay thousands in tax credits | Nursery World (http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/nursery-world/news/1155640/hmrc-tells-childminders-to-repay-thousands-in-tax-credits)

Ripeberry
25-01-2016, 11:07 AM
So in effect you can't EVER claim working tax credits unless you are 'full' and making loads of dosh? Really bad news :(

Simona
25-01-2016, 11:36 AM
Mmmm...I am not too sure that this is about being full and making lots of money?

I have spoken to a consultant this morning who does cms 'business training'...she sent me the article...the issue is much simpler and can be tackled easily...if cms take the opportunities now open to them

I will look into it further....I am not to happy at the way this has been put out.

As said before Cms are NOT the only ones having their WTC cut...everyone is in the same boat but Cms can do something about it by reviewing their business practice while employees will not have any way of addressing this although they will have a pay rise from April to £7.20

Hope cms can think about this and be pro-active.

JCrakers
25-01-2016, 12:24 PM
So if a childminder has 1 mindee through choice and is also claiming WTC, they wont pay out because they aren't using their business to their full potential?

And now they are asking for payments back?

Simona
25-01-2016, 12:40 PM
I strongly believe we need to have all the facts before we can try to address this.
It is not a simple issue.

The example given about a cm choosing to have just one child is fair...it would also apply to someone who runs a shop but only opens for 2 days a week? they too would be asked to maximise their potential earnings.

Having read the article and looked at other information I think the message behind what the HMRC are saying is clear.

The article has various statements that are really concerning and need investigating.

The sustainability of CMs is of real importance and I know there will be conferences and training to address that
This is one example...although the fee is very expensive.... shows what is being planned to support cms remain a viable business....this need is stronger now than ever was in the past.

http://www.westminster-briefing.com/fileadmin/westminster-briefing/Agendas/Childminders_Agenda.pdf?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_term=&utm_content=View%20the%20agenda&utm_campaign=Childminders%20MO1

PS: One of the conference speaker will be from 4 Children...no surprise there as they will say agencies are the answer...they are NOT!!

mama2three
25-01-2016, 12:51 PM
Ok I know Im going to get shot down in flames but here goes....

If a parent has the ability and potential to earn enough to pay for their own family and lifestyle then it is absolutely right that they shouldnt claim benefits. Benefits are in place for those who NEED them , not for those who CHOOSE them. whether that is for a childminder or for anyone else. If I could earn enough to fund myself by taking on extra work / doing a few more hours / whatever else then I should do that ...not stick to my preferred life because tax credits can make up the difference.

The welfare state was introduced as a safety net for those in need . Ive got close friends who have decided to limit their earnings in order to stay under the limits and claim benefits. Its wrong on so many levels.

Ok , off to hide now..........

Simona
25-01-2016, 01:00 PM
Mama2three....I see your points and it is good to discuss this as it is very important for cms.

The Welfare state was created to support us...unfortunately we have a govt intent on dismantling this and no one is going to be able to stop them....unless they are voted out and that is too far away assuming anyone else wins the elections?

So what is the alternative if a cm cannot work more hours? or take on more children?...look at how the business can be reviewed
is the turnover enough?
are expenses too high?

If the HMRC are talking about earning the MLW even though cms are self employed...that is a good start...let's start earning that...it can't be too difficult to do?

mama2three
25-01-2016, 01:08 PM
Simona there simply isnt the money to go around! I dont see it as the government trying to dismantle the welfare state ...and believe me Ive no time for this government...but they need to use what money there is for those in genuine need. In my personal experience the majority of cms whose earnings are low have limited their own income...sticking to having a day off in the week , not wanting schoolies....whatever reason. They choose this , its one reason they went self emloyed , fair enough. But dont then claim benefits to make up the difference when you have the potential to earn it for yourself!
Of course there are exceptions. Many of us have fewer places due to having our own small children etc. The letters from tax credits were looking for this kind of information on why earnings were low. If a genuine reason was evident then of course benefits should be in place......but if answering honestly then its obvious to hmrc that many of us could and should be earning more for ourselves.

JCrakers
25-01-2016, 01:23 PM
Ok I know Im going to get shot down in flames but here goes....

If a parent has the ability and potential to earn enough to pay for their own family and lifestyle then it is absolutely right that they shouldnt claim benefits. Benefits are in place for those who NEED them , not for those who CHOOSE them. whether that is for a childminder or for anyone else. If I could earn enough to fund myself by taking on extra work / doing a few more hours / whatever else then I should do that ...not stick to my preferred life because tax credits can make up the difference.

The welfare state was introduced as a safety net for those in need . Ive got close friends who have decided to limit their earnings in order to stay under the limits and claim benefits. Its wrong on so many levels.

Ok , off to hide now..........

I agree with this :-) if youre not using youre business to its full potential then you shouldnt be claiming.

Simona
25-01-2016, 01:24 PM
Mama2three I don't know how to highlight your response...so bear with me :blush:

I have said that for a long time...some cms have on purpose kept their earnings low to top up with WTC
I agree with your reply.

I was not even aware we could claim WTC...I never have ...but have often had less children that I could have.
I still ran a profitable business...would you not agree that some cms need to look at their fees?
some are charging less than £5...why?
some have not raised fees for years...why? I keep saying review fees yearly....nurseries do so.
some cms not be claiming the entire benefits/perks because they do not know how.

There is no money because we have an incompetent Chancellor with a flawed plan
There is plenty of money for bankers and letting off those who do not pay enough tax though!! :angry:

I would like to dig deeper into this issue.

Simona
25-01-2016, 01:41 PM
And here is the proof that nurseries are raising their fees

Fees to rise as (http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/nursery-world/news/1155645/fees-to-rise-as-living-wage-hits-hard?utm_content=&utm_campaign=25.01.16%20NW%20Update&utm_source=Nursery%20World&utm_medium=adestra_email&utm_term=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nurseryworld.co.uk%2Fnur sery-world%2Fnews%2F1155645%2Ffees-to-rise-as-living-wage-hits-hard)

Cms must do the same!

mama2three
25-01-2016, 01:51 PM
I agree in part simona. Some cms could earn more by being more business savvy , and our economics would benefit greatly from a clampdown on amazon , starbucks and the like.... but too many people in this country have low aspirations ...and thats because they dont see why they should work harder or longer when they dont have to.

I am one of those thousands who charge less than £5. I charge a fair rate for my service ..but for my area any more would price me out of the market. I couldn't increase my earnings by increasing my fees. If I needed to earn more I would have to work longer hours or look at other options such as employing an assistant.

hectors house
25-01-2016, 01:59 PM
I partly agree with this as I have a child who qualifies for 2 year old funding because her parents choose to have a hippy lifestyle and only work very part time self employed hours - said child is currently in India for 4 months for the Winter! (Obviously I'm not claiming funding for whilst she is away), half the time when she is with me, her mum isn't working she is doing the gardening.

Does this repaying Tax credits, apply to childminders who have 2 children of their own taking up spaces and can therefore only look after one child or only childminders who have 3 spaces but choose to only fill one of them?

Simona
25-01-2016, 02:06 PM
I agree in part simona. Some cms could earn more by being more business savvy , and our economics would benefit greatly from a clampdown on amazon , starbucks and the like.... but too many people in this country have low aspirations ...and thats because they dont see why they should work harder or longer when they dont have to.

I am one of those thousands who charge less than £5. I charge a fair rate for my service ..but for my area any more would price me out of the market. I couldn't increase my earnings by increasing my fees. If I needed to earn more I would have to work longer hours or look at other options such as employing an assistant.

Now is my turn to say something then run for cover!

I don't think you will be priced out of the market because soon you will be charging too low for your service...markets are competitive but you must not under sell your service.

I have done a few calculations this morning and a cm can make a profit with even just 3 children...calculator say so!

Business skills can be obtained slowly but easily ...no one needs to run a mega business...wish I could show cms what to tweak and change and be a bit more savvy...it is really very easy.
Would love to get a few hundred cms in one room and throw a few figures at them!

I totally agree about aspirations and now is the time for cms to aspire not to be constantly seen as the Cinderellas of the sector.....cliche I know ....but true!



HH...this why I said we need more details as your question proves we do not have enough at the moment!

halor
25-01-2016, 02:40 PM
It's a tricky one, I agree with mammof3 that if you can pay your way you should. I currently don't work weekends and try and keep one day during the week free. That said, we don't qualify for tx credits anyway.

The free for 2 was brought about to help more parents get back into work or train towards work. The parents, such as the hippys mentioned, make a mockery of this.

I remember a few years ago getting into a blazing row about tax credits, at the time I was working 3 jobs and juggling child care. I had no time to myself and my children were missing out on an awful lot of mammy time. I was doing a maths course with some single mums, single because other half didn't want to move in and have money cut, who were getting way beyond me in tax credits. I was so peeved off because tax credits came about, like free for 2, to help more parents get back into work.

I choose less money so I can spend time with my children, I wouldn't expect others to pay for that though. Yes, we struggle for money and we don't have holidays but that's our choice. This is why I chose childminding, but there are others more business minded. I'm not saying that's wrong, just different to me. Until I have to gain employment I am not willing to work Saturdays and that reflects in my earnings.

Before anyone shouts, I haven't read through the info, this is purely my point of view from the comments already made.

halor
25-01-2016, 02:42 PM
I agree in part simona. Some cms could earn more by being more business savvy , and our economics would benefit greatly from a clampdown on amazon , starbucks and the like.... but too many people in this country have low aspirations ...and thats because they dont see why they should work harder or longer when they dont have to. I am one of those thousands who charge less than £5. I charge a fair rate for my service ..but for my area any more would price me out of the market. I couldn't increase my earnings by increasing my fees. If I needed to earn more I would have to work longer hours or look at other options such as employing an assistant.

I charge £5.50 but that's due to the area I live, I've raised it once. Any higher then I too would be putting myself out of business as there are other childminders they can go to

mama2three
25-01-2016, 02:55 PM
Just to clarify simona , I work hard and earn a very good income. I do review fees annually , and if you ask those who know me Im one of the more business minded chldminders! I have done my market research and already charge more than many locally. Increasing further right now isnt an option unless there is some kind of local agreement of the kind that so upsets Bunyip - where we all increase our charges together. I earn around £3.50 an hour , though I charge daily so its harder to quantify. Where we agree is that cms should look at maximising profit rather than making up the difference with tax credits!

Mouse
25-01-2016, 03:22 PM
I know childminders who receive tax credits and won't take on 3 children as it would put them over the 'earnings limit'. When we've been at our group they'll talk about how they've got one space free, but they don't want to take on another child as it would mean they earned too much to get tax credits. Then there are others who don't qualify for tax credits, so have to work all they can to bring in enough money. Surely it's wrong that some people have been able to choose to work fewer hours or with fewer children, but have their earnings topped up by benefits while others have to work full time with maximum children just to receive the same total amount? I've no problem with people choosing to work a shorter week, or with fewer children, but they shouldn't rely on benefits to top up their earnings.


I also know someone who set up her own business buying and selling second hand goods. She said it was a full time job so claimed full time childcare costs for her 2 children. But she didn't ever really do much business and declared a loss or very low profit every year. She received tax credits, council tax benefit, housing benefit...and anything else she could get. She didn't really have any intention of working, but knew how to play the system. I would hope the new rules would crack down on that sort of thing, but not at the expense of families who really need the help. This person's business was never questioned so she was able to claim huge amounts. I don't think it's wrong for self employed people to have to explain their income, but as usual, the government goes about it in a very rushed, heavy handed way. I hope the genuine cases aren't penalised unfairly, but I do worry for them :(

singingcactus
25-01-2016, 07:22 PM
I charge well under the £5 an hour, and I earn a nice profit. I could earn more of a profit but I chose to fritter my money on the kiddos (I live in a boring boring boring place, it saves me from insanity to splurge). Mind you I am married and my husband earns a living wage, so what I consider a profit is different to what a single parent with a family would consider a profit, I guess.

What is the minimum that hmrc is looking at childminders making before they will allow that their business is viable but still so low it allows payment of wtc? Is it higher or lower than the income generated by 3 x 3yo on 30 hours free childcare (when it comes in)?

I believe that the welfare system is there for those in need too, but not sure that hmrc should be demanding moneys back retrospectively, from anyone, if it was claimed in good faith according to the existing rules. Bring in the viable business rule, and make it clear, from this time forward, not this time and back 2 years or however long they are demanding repayments from.

I never knew that childminders could claim wtc, but I can only assume if I had ever been in the position to need it then I would have figured it out. It would suck if I had made a legitimate claim and then some time later I was told I had been dishonest and they wanted it back. Now.

Simona
25-01-2016, 07:41 PM
I charge well under the £5 an hour, and I earn a nice profit. I could earn more of a profit but I chose to fritter my money on the kiddos (I live in a boring boring boring place, it saves me from insanity to splurge). Mind you I am married and my husband earns a living wage, so what I consider a profit is different to what a single parent with a family would consider a profit, I guess.

What is the minimum that hmrc is looking at childminders making before they will allow that their business is viable but still so low it allows payment of wtc? Is it higher or lower than the income generated by 3 x 3yo on 30 hours free childcare (when it comes in)?

I believe that the welfare system is there for those in need too, but not sure that hmrc should be demanding moneys back retrospectively, from anyone, if it was claimed in good faith according to the existing rules. Bring in the viable business rule, and make it clear, from this time forward, not this time and back 2 years or however long they are demanding repayments from.

I never knew that childminders could claim wtc, but I can only assume if I had ever been in the position to need it then I would have figured it out. It would suck if I had made a legitimate claim and then some time later I was told I had been dishonest and they wanted it back. Now.

I am so glad you asked that question....can HMRC claim back WTC if they were paid under the existing rule?
That was one of the issues that concerned me

There are other and I hope someone else spots them

Mouse
25-01-2016, 07:51 PM
I believe that the welfare system is there for those in need too, but not sure that hmrc should be demanding moneys back retrospectively, from anyone, if it was claimed in good faith according to the existing rules. Bring in the viable business rule, and make it clear, from this time forward, not this time and back 2 years or however long they are demanding repayments from.

.

That's the bit I don't understand. How can they claim back money that was paid out under a totally different scheme? if you qualified at the time, you shouldn't have to pay anything back. It should only apply from when the new rules come into force.

Simona
25-01-2016, 08:27 PM
Mouse...that article is ...for me...scaremongering and badly written and many peopl e think along those lines as well.

We need to have the right people looking into this and I know they will as I speak to more.

The other dodgy stuff is sending HMRC personal information about children and parents...as far as I understand that is a No No...there are ways and ways to collect data for the IR when it comes to business ......ICO and Data Protection come to mind anyone?

We need to be patient and allow those who understand this issue get the hang of this...I am sure they will soon.

Hebs
25-01-2016, 10:05 PM
What about mindees who like me have health problems and don't want to be full so
A, they can manage their illness
B, would struggle with a full quota?

mama2three
26-01-2016, 04:14 AM
Hopefully hebs those in genuine need will always get the help. That's the whole point of clamping down on the others. I only hope that systems improve so that genuine people don't suffer because of others playing
the system.

Simona
26-01-2016, 09:15 AM
Yes Hebs...and that is why articles like this one scream of sensational journalism....since reading it it has really made me very cross...there are so many inaccuracies in it and if you pick the details it would fall apart!

I truly feel for you and also for those cms who want to have independence in choosing how to set up and run their business including hours worked.

I am now waiting for the Tory party to blame Labour for paying out WTC...or even for putting them in place in the first time to provide a safety net.
don't employers take advantage of WTC and pay employees low wages?

As Mama2three says those in real need will hopefully get the help

Is anyone going to raise any concerns about this and the way it has been handled?I hope so as this kind of article can worry people.
I am sure our representing associations will be asked for a little help if they are only concerned about their members then we have to alert other associations.
If we had unions they would act for us

apparently this came into effect in April 2015...so nearly a year ago but no one heard anything before?

many people really think it is the Department for Work and Pension and that nasty IDS who runs it who is behind this....but I would have liked cms to be offered help not scared by this kind of headlines.
Will it cause another drop in numbers if cms do not understand the ins and outs?

I also hope CYPNow may do a report too....I'd like to read their take on it as well.


it maybe a good idea to get something going on this...re address the balance and being pro-active about it.
are there any cms in this forum who have received a letter asking them to pay money back from WTC?
sorry I am not on FB so not aware what has been discussed there but it must have been going on for a while and I have not come across this before anywhere else.

how far back have Cms been asked to pay ?
what sort of details are you being asked to provide about children and families?
are cms being asked to send contracts to HMRC?
are you warned about protecting children/families' identities?
has anyone contacted their PLI to check on this?

Let's resolve this and not make it another stick to be beaten with

rickysmiths
26-01-2016, 12:24 PM
Mmmm...I am not too sure that this is about being full and making lots of money?

I have spoken to a consultant this morning who does cms 'business training'...she sent me the article...the issue is much simpler and can be tackled easily...if cms take the opportunities now open to them

I will look into it further....I am not to happy at the way this has been put out.

As said before Cms are NOT the only ones having their WTC cut...everyone is in the same boat but Cms can do something about it by reviewing their business practice while employees will not have any way of addressing this although they will have a pay rise from April to £7.20

Hope cms can think about this and be pro-active.

It isn't about Employed people at all.

The whole thing is about Self Employed who are not running a sustainable business. It could be a cm, a plumber, or a gardener or and Accountant if they are currently claiming benefits.

rickysmiths
26-01-2016, 12:38 PM
Mama2three I don't know how to highlight your response...so bear with me :blush:

I have said that for a long time...some cms have on purpose kept their earnings low to top up with WTC
I agree with your reply.

I was not even aware we could claim WTC...I never have ...but have often had less children that I could have.

I agree and I have been in a similar position a few times.
I still ran a profitable business...would you not agree that some cms need to look at their fees?

some are charging less than £5...why?

Because it really does depend where you are.


some have not raised fees for years...why? I keep saying review fees yearly....nurseries do so

I agree there is no reason not to review fees regularly and put them up a little as all businesses do


some cms not be claiming the entire benefits/perks because they do not know how.

There is no money because we have an incompetent Chancellor with a flawed plan

That is not strictly true because the previous Labour Government sold all our Gold reserves and left the purse completely empty but I am not going to go there!!


There is plenty of money for bankers and letting off those who do not pay enough tax though!! :angry:

Agreed!

I would like to dig deeper into this issue.

The thing is there are too many people claiming benefits to fulfil a life style not a need. I would love to only work 3 days a week but I can't afford to and it would occur to me to do this and then claim Benefits to allow me to choose this life style.

I know a number of cm who sadly do, who help at school etc and that is great if you can afford it but not if you are on benefits you can't choose to take off a day a week to volunteer you have to work!

rickysmiths
26-01-2016, 12:56 PM
The interesting thing is though if you read the article the cm quoted is now running a viable and profitable business so the process has worked and has saved the tax payers Benefit money that was not needed.


I believe the definition of a Viable business is that you should earn enough before tax as you would earn if you were working a 37.5 hour week being paid min wage.

Simona
26-01-2016, 01:14 PM
It isn't about Employed people at all.

The whole thing is about Self Employed who are not running a sustainable business. It could be a cm, a plumber, or a gardener or and Accountant if they are currently claiming benefits.

Yes it is something that will affect employed people too...everyone is having WTC cuts not just the self employed or cms.
Do you recall what IDS said? 'Make up the loss by increasing your working hours'

We have views on WTC and a right to our opinion...however.....until last year we could claim them....no more
The article would have been better if it had been a warning to the changes rather than a scary one panicking cms.

The aim here is to encourage cms to run a 'profitable' small business according to size and needs....doing a simple business plan and bear in mind WTC will not be there to fill the gap for many.
Another need is to get 'business training' for cms while also train to deliver childcare...the 2 go hand in hand

No point in blaming this govt or the last Labour one...let's act on the positive and see what we can do to help cms in need.

If fees are different in every area and they are...why do we have a single formula of around £5.09 for all areas? And if we have a National Living Wage does that not apply to all areas?
I am really genuinely interested to find out why in some areas fees are around £3 or just above...what determines that?
Apart from houses being cheaper ...our business expenses are more or less the same whichever area we live in...are they not?


I am off trying to get help and support for cms in this latest issue and ...from what I have already discussed...that will soon come....positive I think! :thumbsup:

k1rstie
26-01-2016, 01:41 PM
I had a childminding friend ( now retired) who said when I tried to pass her the contact details of a parent who was looking for childcare, 'if I took another child on, I would be working for nothing' . I opened my mouth to reply, then shut it very quickly.

Hebs
26-01-2016, 01:50 PM
Along with the new living wage /nmw comes tax credits cuts which will also affect the rate of help a family get towards childcare so they will be worse off and for some it will mean it's not viable to work anymore,

Whilst I agree in theory with the new NMW I fear the negative impact will be greater not only to those who require help with childcare but also the childminders who rely on that business

mama2three
26-01-2016, 02:04 PM
Sorry Hebs its almost always viable to work. We may not earn any more than we would claiming benefits but there is so much more to it than finance , being a positive role model for a start , self esteem , knowing that we are providing for our own..

Simona
26-01-2016, 02:06 PM
Along with the new living wage /nmw comes tax credits cuts which will also affect the rate of help a family get towards childcare so they will be worse off and for some it will mean it's not viable to work anymore,

Whilst I agree in theory with the new NMW I fear the negative impact will be greater not only to those who require help with childcare but also the childminders who rely on that business

Yes.... But the govt will come back by saying 'we are doubling the childcare hours' and also the Tax Free Childcare is worth around £5000 for eligible parents....their NMW is going up to £7.20 and rising to £9 by 2020 according to the chancellor,

Sam Gyimah says that all the time....selling childcare to hard working parents but forgetting to address providers who will still be subsidising childcare ...even at £4.85 ph. and who are also hard working and facing increases in expenses all the time....ironic!

I do not think the 30 hours will have an easy passage and many cms will have a choice to do it by splitting the hours with other providers...many are now very keen to do so and work with cms....preschools in particular....plenty of time to hatch a business plan maybe?

FussyElmo
26-01-2016, 02:22 PM
Sorry Hebs its almost always viable to work. We may not earn any more than we would claiming benefits but there is so much more to it than finance , being a positive role model for a start , self esteem , knowing that we are providing for our own..

Whereas I do agree with this sentiment however a friend has recently got herself together and got a full time job and no longer on income support etc. She is in fact £20 a week better off.

The only reason she is perserving is the fact she is setting an example to her children and showing them a w good work ethic but you can understand why some people would be defeated by only gaining £20 by working.

add in those awful zero hour contracts and you have lots of people in a catch 22 :(

Hebs
26-01-2016, 02:42 PM
But the 30 hpw childcare isn't set in stone yet and the government are trying to reverse the plans for it anyway, it won't be available in all areas at first so the impact will be felt by a lot of working parents

Hebs
26-01-2016, 02:43 PM
And I agree even if your no better off working you should but no one should be worse off by working and that's exactly what's going to happen to some families

Simona
26-01-2016, 03:02 PM
You are right Hebs...the 30 hours will be available in the areas where there are 'implemeters' trialling the system...from 2017 it will be widespread to all areas....so we have a long way to go.



It is good to discuss this very important issue for cms...but...can we bear in mind that those cms who claimed WTC until April 2015 did so because the system allowed them to?
I see no point in being critical even though we may not agree with it...it was allowed and they took advantage of it.

Let's move on from here...what would we do to support cms in 'weaning' themselves off benefits and getting their business to be sustainable and earning a living from it?

As I said previously I was contacted by EY people yesterday about this issue ...I was encouraged by their willingness to help cms overcome this change...no one blamed anyone and everyone was positive and thinking of what they can do to help

I hope we too can do so here :thumbsup:

k1rstie
26-01-2016, 06:44 PM
HMRC tells childminders to repay thousands in tax credits | Nursery World (http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/nursery-world/news/1155640/hmrc-tells-childminders-to-repay-thousands-in-tax-credits)

Hi Simona. I have just read the original article in your post. Thank you for posting. I personally had not heard about this, but have no experience or knowledge of working tax credits.

I have just worked out my hourly rate, and I was surprised at the figure.
I worked it the following way - ( would this be the correct way?)

Total paid by parents so far this financial year X 0.90 (for wear and tear) minus my expenses for this financial year. This gives me my profit so far this year.
I then divided this by the total number of hours worked this year (including zero hours when I have been closed and on holiday). This gave me my hourly rate.
My figure was higher than the figure given at the bottom of the nursery world article.

I suppose one of the problems with our financials is that some/many childminders are often a bit enthusiastic with their expenses on their tax return. The higher your expenses, the lower your tax bill!!! I have heard figures between a third and a half were acceptable for expenses when completing tax return.

So for WTC, creative accountancy to bring your tax bill down will have an effect on how stainable a business would look.

This is a really interesting thread, and I suspect there are many different views and opinions.

sarah707
26-01-2016, 08:17 PM
Mouse...that article is ...for me...scaremongering and badly written and many peopl e think along those lines as well.

We need to have the right people looking into this and I know they will as I speak to more.

The other dodgy stuff is sending HMRC personal information about children and parents...as far as I understand that is a No No...there are ways and ways to collect data for the IR when it comes to business ......ICO and Data Protection come to mind anyone?

We need to be patient and allow those who understand this issue get the hang of this...I am sure they will soon.

How very rude :(

I worked very hard to share the correct information with Nursery World and they got their other facts from HMRC direct.

A heck of a lot of effort went into getting the story into the early years press - letter writing, sending emails etc all in my 'spare' time after working a 10 hour day.

The childminder they spoke to has had money taken from her. She has shared her story to try and help others and and she would be very offended by your comment.

Please consider your words more carefully. This is a huge forum and we have a lot of people read these threads.

Thank you.

Simona
26-01-2016, 08:25 PM
Hi Simona. I have just read the original article in your post. Thank you for posting. I personally had not heard about this, but have no experience or knowledge of working tax credits.

I have just worked out my hourly rate, and I was surprised at the figure.
I worked it the following way - ( would this be the correct way?)

Total paid by parents so far this financial year X 0.90 (for wear and tear) minus my expenses for this financial year. This gives me my profit so far this year.
I then divided this by the total number of hours worked this year (including zero hours when I have been closed and on holiday). This gave me my hourly rate.
My figure was higher than the figure given at the bottom of the nursery world article.

I suppose one of the problems with our financials is that some/many childminders are often a bit enthusiastic with their expenses on their tax return. The higher your expenses, the lower your tax bill!!! I have heard figures between a third and a half were acceptable for expenses when completing tax return.

So for WTC, creative accountancy to bring your tax bill down will have an effect on how stainable a business would look.

This is a really interesting thread, and I suspect there are many different views and opinions.

Thanks K1rstie..to be honest I am not an expert on WTC as I have never claimed them ...so would not know where to start relating them to the accounts we submit to HMRC.

This change happened in April 2015...so I am surprised this issue has just gone public like this...if cms were having trouble and feeling anxious why did they not raise it with the appropriate bodies?...that' s a bit of a mystery....however some people I spoke to were expecting something like this to happen.

I am not an accountant but I have had one for over 20 years and have picked up the ins and outs of running small businesses from home...that is childminding and another business.
.
The 2 are totally different when it comes to expenses and allowances and legal perks...so my accountant gets the final figures then we go through...month by month...the expenses I have recorded, what is allowed etc etc. and those get submitted by them to HMRC.

I am unsure what 'creative accountancy' is? yes our allowable expenses keep our profits down ...then we claim legal taxfree allowances...and therefore we pay tax on the profit left.....but the expenses have to be feasible.

A qualified and expert person would submit accurate accounts...maybe many cms are not as few do a business training when they first register
Accountancy is a complicated issue and the cm in the article says she is not 'the most financially minded person'.
She goes on to say her business is now viable but she is 'scraping by'...viable and sustainable are different I believe? but I am happy she is out of the woods.


As the article says we must keep accounts in order as HMRC will now do more checks....and those can go back a few years.

Your calculations for working out the hourly rate are probably correct...this is the first time cms have had to calculate like that because self employed people are not waged...seems DWP has found a new way to make us think in terms of hourly wages?
I have done the calculations differently but yours are just as good....if your figure is higher than in the article then it would reflect the many roles you have as self employed.


I agree there will be many views and opinions and I sincerely hope this will be a new chapter for cms...where childcare and business are equally important....and cms get help with training in the area.

On we soldier in a positive way :thumbsup:

Sarah...my comments are always taken the wrong way...up to people to decide if I was rude...I don't think being frank means being rude.
The article is confusing and scary...it needed not be like that....and I have never referred any of my comments to you...please read what I have said.

rickysmiths
26-01-2016, 11:11 PM
Thanks K1rstie..to be honest I am not an expert on WTC as I have never claimed them ...so would not know where to start relating them to the accounts we submit to HMRC.

This change happened in April 2015...so I am surprised this issue has just gone public like this...if cms were having trouble and feeling anxious why did they not raise it with the appropriate bodies?...that' s a bit of a mystery....however some people I spoke to were expecting something like this to happen.

I am not an accountant but I have had one for over 20 years and have picked up the ins and outs of running small businesses from home...that is childminding and another business.
.
The 2 are totally different when it comes to expenses and allowances and legal perks...so my accountant gets the final figures then we go through...month by month...the expenses I have recorded, what is allowed etc etc. and those get submitted by them to HMRC.

I am unsure what 'creative accountancy' is? yes our allowable expenses keep our profits down ...then we claim legal taxfree allowances...and therefore we pay tax on the profit left.....but the expenses have to be feasible.

A qualified and expert person would submit accurate accounts...maybe many cms are not as few do a business training when they first register
Accountancy is a complicated issue and the cm in the article says she is not 'the most financially minded person'.
She goes on to say her business is now viable but she is 'scraping by'...viable and sustainable are different I believe? but I am happy she is out of the woods.


As the article says we must keep accounts in order as HMRC will now do more checks....and those can go back a few years.

Your calculations for working out the hourly rate are probably correct...this is the first time cms have had to calculate like that because self employed people are not waged...seems DWP has found a new way to make us think in terms of hourly wages?
I have done the calculations differently but yours are just as good....if your figure is higher than in the article then it would reflect the many roles you have as self employed.


I agree there will be many views and opinions and I sincerely hope this will be a new chapter for cms...where childcare and business are equally important....and cms get help with training in the area.

On we soldier in a positive way :thumbsup:

Sarah...my comments are always taken the wrong way...up to people to decide if I was rude...I don't think being frank means being rude.
The article is confusing and scary...it needed not be like that....and I have never referred any of my comments to you...please read what I have said.


Yes well if you did your research Simona you would know that Pacey among others have indeed been helping a supporting childminders through the process because childminders have been speaking up and asking for help. I do wonder what world you live in sometimes Simona, sorry but I do.

Many childminders work out how much it costs them to run their business, they have to know that or else they wouldn't have a hope of running a successful business. Many do submit expenses that are artificially inflated in the belief in will reduce their Tax bill but these cms if claiming benefits will now have to do things properly.

I agree many are not business savy however as Independent business owners it is up to us to find out how to do it. One of the best, cheapest and most simple is to use the Pacey Accounts book which sets everything out in a simple way, I am sure MM and others produce similar products and for the computer savy there are many ways on line it is not that hard.

If you know you are always taken the wrong way in your posts then maybe you need to have a think about how you are posting and the effect it has on people? You are not like many people Simona, I have to say you seem to have a very different outlook than the average cm and I wonder how many ordinary cm you meet when you are going to all your meetings apparently representing us? Sorry to be harsh.

Oh and in case your Accountant hand not informed you Accounts and all associated paperwork must be kept for 6 years, that is how far HMRC can go back if they do an investigation on your books so most people keep 7 years back.

Simona
26-01-2016, 11:47 PM
Yes well if you did your research Simona you would know that Pacey among others have indeed been helping a supporting childminders through the process because childminders have been speaking up and asking for help. I do wonder what world you live in sometimes Simona, sorry but I do.

Many childminders work out how much it costs them to run their business, they have to know that or else they wouldn't have a hope of running a successful business. Many do submit expenses that are artificially inflated in the belief in will reduce their Tax bill but these cms if claiming benefits will now have to do things properly.

I agree many are not business savy however as Independent business owners it is up to us to find out how to do it. One of the best, cheapest and most simple is to use the Pacey Accounts book which sets everything out in a simple way, I am sure MM and others produce similar products and for the computer savy there are many ways on line it is not that hard.

If you know you are always taken the wrong way in your posts then maybe you need to have a think about how you are posting and the effect it has on people? You are not like many people Simona, I have to say you seem to have a very different outlook than the average cm and I wonder how many ordinary cm you meet when you are going to all your meetings apparently representing us? Sorry to be harsh.

Oh and in case your Accountant hand not informed you Accounts and all associated paperwork must be kept for 6 years, that is how far HMRC can go back if they do an investigation on your books so most people keep 7 years back.

Thank you for your reply RS...as ever your facts are wrong.
Amazing how people can misread and misrepresent what others say.....harsh ...or no you are not.....but misinformed maybe and wrongly judgemental

I go to meeting for my own reason and information and certainly do not represent cms in the way you think
Do not judge my research when you have no proof of what I do in that area....come and have a look if you like.

I am certainly different ...we all are...and proud to be independent and much more than that....pro active is how I would describe myself and that is why I am involved in many groups you have no idea of.

Please do not try to guess which cms I meet and who they are....and there is no average cm as you say

I am perfectly aware of how long I need to keep records and accounts for HMRC.....please spare me!
And I think I have clearly stated why I believe cms need support in their business....look ahead and reflect on that and take hints from what has happened and will happen in future

You are perfectly aware I am not a Pacey member...I was and very pro active for them too....although I am aware of what they do and who they represent.
Why would I use their paperwork when I have an accountant who devises mine?


Maybe I should remind you how you described cms to Ofsted at the last OBC in London?...maybe not but enough to say many were not that impressed...some were rather shocked by your words.

You may not like my style but do not try to judge as you hardly know me....stop smacking my hand as it is childish!
I started this thread to get a discussion going...not a fight with words....I strongly believe that article was wrong and many have read it and think the same....by that I meant the journalist not anyone else

As ever I believe than tackling things the right way and with positivity gets results....watch this space!

Ripeberry
27-01-2016, 07:42 AM
Sorry Hebs its almost always viable to work. We may not earn any more than we would claiming benefits but there is so much more to it than finance , being a positive role model for a start , self esteem , knowing that we are providing for our own..

I know one thing. My brother will need to seriously rethink his lifestyle! He is on incapacity benefit (on tablets for anxiety). And has never had a full time job for more than six months (he's now in his mid 40s). He feels 'comfortable' in his bedsit, playing games on his computer. He does voluntary work most days, but refuses to get a real job as he'll lose his easy life. Ho hum...

mumofone
27-01-2016, 08:16 AM
I didn't even know you could claim wtc if we earn under a certain amount?!
I would assume if we are working even a tiny bit then we're not entitled to them so I'm suprised.
(Sorry not read thread in full yet!)

mumofone
27-01-2016, 08:30 AM
And here is the proof that nurseries are raising their fees Fees to rise as (http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/nursery-world/news/1155645/fees-to-rise-as-living-wage-hits-hard?utm_content=&utm_campaign=25.01.16%20NW%20Update&utm_source=Nursery%20World&utm_medium=adestra_email&utm_term=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nurseryworld.co.uk%2Fnur sery-world%2Fnews%2F1155645%2Ffees-to-rise-as-living-wage-hits-hard) Cms must do the same!


I did wonder about increasing fees around april time when the living wage comes in but like others think j would prove myself out the market...unless everyone does the same.

Simona
27-01-2016, 09:40 AM
I did wonder about increasing fees around april time when the living wage comes in but like others think j would prove myself out the market...unless everyone does the same.


Putting in your contract that your fees are 'reviewed' each year does not mean you have to raise them every year.,..you review them every year and parents are aware of this and therefore forewarned.

If you find the fees are at the right level then you inform the parents 'no rise' this year...but you still carried out a review to lead you to that financial decision
If you do raise them...then you give parents 4 weeks' notice of them going up.

I am really very confused how anyone can price themselves out of the market when nurseries and pre-schools review fees each year and cms stick to the same rate...despite the fact most of our expenses go up each year ? it makes me think of viability and sustainability??
I have asked for clarification but none has been given that stands to reason


As a childcare market it means it will withstand competition in all sorts of way....also keeping fees low I am not sure who it will benefit? and would parents always choose the lowest charging cm?

Have you done a little research to compare your fees with those of providers around you?...worth it maybe?

The fees charged in my area by cms and nurseries vary a great deal...parents do not always choose the cheapest option....and the difference in fees is astronomical!

natlou82
27-01-2016, 09:51 AM
Re fees:- I live in an area where having spoke to many CM's no-one charges above £4 per hour. Some are even charging as little as £3.20 per hour! Will parents always choose the cheapest - NO! But when you have got really good, very experienced CM with an excellent reputation only charging £3.20 why would you choose a newer CM (building a reputation) at £5 per hour? I charge between £3.50 and £4 per hour (depending on their needs) and I am happy to be running a successful business on these rates. Yes I do review annually and my parents are all aware. And btw I have suggested to the other CMs that their fees are very low but ultimately it is their decision how much they charge.

Simona
27-01-2016, 10:02 AM
Natlou...I really don't think that is what I have said at all...and of course it is our decision how much we charge
Where did I say it is not? and where did I say parents 'always' choose the cheapest'.

No point in even trying to open and engage in discussion when there is so much antagonism!
I think this is getting 'personal' and I will not go down that route.

I am sure you run a successful business...no one ever questioned that...I hope you will continue to do so when the agency gets up and running in your area.
Good luck!

Mouse
27-01-2016, 10:58 AM
I am really very confused how anyone can price themselves out of the market when nurseries and pre-schools review fees each year and cms stick to the same rate...despite the fact most of our expenses go up each year ? it makes me think of viability and sustainability??
I have asked for clarification but none has been given that stands to reason


!

In the past I'd have agreed with the idea that you couldn't charge over a certain amount in your area as no one would pay it. At one time there was an agreed rate for this area (I'm going back many years) which was decided on by the local childminding group committee and everyone in the group signed to say they'd charge that amount (I was never in the group!) There was still always someone who would undercut everyone though, and in those days parents did tend to go with the cheapest option, maybe because there were no tax credits or any other form of help with the cost of childcare.

Childminders were seen, by parents and childminders themselves, as cheap childcare for parents who couldn't afford nurseries. Things have changed dramatically over the years and now I don't believe parents do view us as the cheap option. They choose us because they want their children in a home-based setting, not because they want something cheaper than a nursery. I've had parents take their children out of nursery to bring them to me and they're surprised that my fees have been so much lower. If parents don't expect our fees to be so low, why should we? How much of it is down to childminders thinking parents won't pay more, without actually having tested the waters?

I recently looked into the fees some of the local nurseries charge. Their day rate seems to be about £45 a day where as mine is £38. BUT their day is 10.5 or 11 hours long, while mine is 9. It makes our hourly rates very similar and in fact, for a full week one of their rates works out at £3.45 an hour while mine is £4 an hour. The average rate charged by childminders in my area is £3.50-£3.75. My hourly rate is generally between £4-£5.

I am always full and parents never quibble about my fees. It just goes to show that you can charge more and still get plenty of work. It hasn't happened overnight and it does take a bit of courage to decide you're going to set your fees that much higher, but it can be done. I know it won't work for everyone or in every area, but I don't think anyone should assume they'll be priced out of the market without even giving it a go.

natlou82
27-01-2016, 11:32 AM
Simona, you asked why some CMs charge so little. I was just explaining why I do. That is all.

loocyloo
27-01-2016, 11:36 AM
I currently charge about as much a local day nursery and am the most expensive childminder in my area. I'm often told by a couple of cm that I can't charge that much and no one will pay it. I just smile and say 'I do and they do' :-) I'm (over) full with a waiting list for EY.
I review my fees every Jan, and tell parents that fees will or will not be rising that year in the April (giving 2 mths notice). I will be putting mine up this April for the first time in 3 years. Not one parent has made a fuss and in fact one parent says she thinks I ought to charge more.

Simona
27-01-2016, 11:46 AM
Simona, you asked why some CMs charge so little. I was just explaining why I do. That is all.

Yes I appreciate that and confirmed it is cms' own choice in the end.
What I wanted to find out is why? although I am getting a hint of the reason from various comments
Mouse has replied very well

I also wanted to find out if charging...as an example £3.50 per hour...would cover the NLW cms are now supposed to apply to us and cover the expenses which are more or less the same for all of us?
Would that leave enough for a small margin of profit?

So many questions are going round in my head and wanted to be clear so I can discuss this for business training purposes which ...so far...has focussed on improving cms' business skills but not preparing 'business plans' as we now know cms may be required to provide?

Does that explain it or even make sense? that is the best way I can put in English without getting muddled by my EAL?

Ripeberry
27-01-2016, 11:59 AM
But the ones with low hourly fees, don't they charge extra for food and outings? It would make better sense to 'sell' the CM package at a higher hourly rate but with no 'extra charges'. :)

JCrakers
27-01-2016, 12:01 PM
I put my prices up in september from 3.50 to 3.75 and cant go any higher. There are a few childminders wo charge 4.00 but offer a cooked meal, something which i used to offer but have phased it out as a.ihate cooking and b.kids just weren't eating it, being too fussy etc.

I have 16 children on my books so at the moment have a good income for the low price. Included in the 3.75 is food and toddler groups.

I am slightly higher than the nurseries as they seem to offer the same price but discount for the day, so 35.00 per day.

The going rate is the going rate, if you over price yourself, there is someone who is just as good, cheaper :-)

JCrakers
27-01-2016, 12:06 PM
But the ones with low hourly fees, don't they charge extra for food and outings? It would make better sense to 'sell' the CM package at a higher hourly rate but with no 'extra charges'. :)

My 3.75 fee includes no extra payments :-) I include food,drinks,toddler groups. The only thing i would charge extra for is bigger trips out, something which i dont do as i dont have a car for business use.

singingcactus
27-01-2016, 12:23 PM
I charge 3.50 per hour for part time children, and the equivalent of 3.00 an hour for full time children. To be honest, because I earn enough to cover all my expenses and leave plenty for me to be able to live my life as I chose, I have no need to be claiming benefits. This means the national living wage carries no meaning to me. I don't view my income as what I earn hourly but whether it gives me the life I want. It is this that sets my hourly rate.

Sure if I was claiming benefits and the government demanded it, then I would need to work out my hourly income. But if working 50+ hours a week I was still unable to cover my expenses I would already be reviewing it. I do review my fees when I submit my tax return in April anyway.

My £3 and £3.5 an hour gives me the life I want and more, so that is my fee. That includes a breakfast, cooked lunch with starter, main, cheese course and fruit course, and a PM snack, all trips, activities and wipes etc. I turn a comfortable profit, I could make more if I spent less. I have a trapped customer base, childcare is like gold dust here so I could probably double my rate and get it. But I like my life the way it is, I'm happy. My happiness is what dictates my rate.

natlou82
27-01-2016, 12:25 PM
All I can tell you is that the profit I earn leaves me financially better off than if I worked full time at NLW and had to pay for childcare.

rickysmiths
28-01-2016, 02:32 PM
Thank you for your reply RS...as ever your facts are wrong.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to tell me which facts are wrong that would be helpful?

Amazing how people can misread and misrepresent what others say.....harsh ...or no you are not.....but misinformed maybe and wrongly judgemental

I don't believe I am mis informed but again if you feel I am perhaps you would point out where and then I can check my facts?


I go to meeting for my own reason and information and certainly do not represent cms in the way you think

What way do I think you represent childminders?

Perhaps you could tell us how you do because as far as I can see you go to many meetings and conferences and tell us you are going and then give no or very limited feedback. Sarah gives far more comprehensive feedback on BOC and gives the answers to questions people have asked if they have been given, I am sorry but it feels like you announce you are going to things like the BOC and ask for comments but you never do a full feedback, we gets bits and bobs disjointed on different posts.


Do not judge my research when you have no proof of what I do in that area....come and have a look if you like.

OK I don't know what happens in your area, but I do have a fair idea in my area and other areas, as a working cm (over 50 hours a week) and networking with other working cm on a number of days a week from different areas.

I am certainly different ...we all are...and proud to be independent and much more than that....pro active is how I would describe myself and that is why I am involved in many groups you have no idea of.

Please do not try to guess which cms I meet and who they are....and there is no average cm as you say

I am perfectly aware of how long I need to keep records and accounts for HMRC.....please spare me!
And I think I have clearly stated why I believe cms need support in their business....look ahead and reflect on that and take hints from what has happened and will happen in future

You are perfectly aware I am not a Pacey member...I was and very pro active for them too....although I am aware of what they do and who they represent.
Why would I use their paperwork when I have an accountant who devises mine?

Actually I was not aware of that as I have been to a Pacey AGM where you were present and only members are admitted to those so forgive me for that. Not that I actually inferred you are a member. This is where you seem to miss read things and take general comments to personally! I was referring to those cm generally who may not be business/accounts savy that they might find it easier to use Pacey/MM paperwork to help them, not you! Re read what I said.



Maybe I should remind you how you described cms to Ofsted at the last OBC in London?...maybe not but enough to say many were not that impressed...some were rather shocked by your words.

Ha! you make what I said sound so sinister when it wasn't at all and in fact a number of people came up to me after the meeting and said what I had said was very good and well done!

For those of you who were not there. The question of Ofsted's 25% cut in funding was being discussed along with the frequency of inspections especially for all Educational settings graded Outstanding and the question of the cost of Registrations was raised. As Simona has posted in the light of Ofsted budget cuts the powers that be have been discussing the level of Registration Fees and the likelihood is that they will rise for all sectors. Now this is something that I personally think is well overdue for Childminders. It was set at £91 per year when Ofsted took over in 2001. Rightly Pacey negotiated this down because on average cm had been paying Social Services £10 per year for registration and PLI insurance and we were suddenly faced with paying £91 Registration plus the cost of PLI with Pacey or MM (there must be some of you on here who remember this?) a big hike in cost. So Pacey got the Reg Fee reduced to £25 per year but it was planned that it would gradually rise to the £91 and no doubt to more than that in the 15 years that have now passed. However that didn't happen the only rise has been one up to £35pa. Now we as a sector have to be realistic and know that £35pa does not cover Ofsted's costs in Registering, maintaining (things like answering enquiries, dealing with complaints, publishing documents for our use etc) and Inspecting an Independent Childminder. We have got to face increase and personally knowing an inspection costs approx £800-900 to conduct I would expect to pay at least £200 to £300 a year to remain Independently registered, I don't want or look forward to paying that much but I can't see how in order for cm to continue it can be any less and the sad thing is it should have been going steadily up over the last 15 years and then it would not have been so bad. I voiced this view at the meeting last week. I also think the £250-300 that Nurseries pay some with 100 children in them is not realistic when very often 2 Inspectors are sent to conduct an Inspection and even if one is they are very different, talking to a number of staff and observing them, examining much more paperwork and taking longer and bearing in mind the income of a 100 place or even a 30 to 50 place Nursery they should be paying more as well.

The other point that was raised and I spoke out about, was the new 50/50 rule that started on 1st Jan 2016, I can't remember the exact legislation sorry, enabling us to work 50% of our working week somewhere other than our home (Our registered place of work) using our current Registration Certificate and I have also established that Pacey PLI will cover use if we chose to work in this way. I asked how strict the 50% was and how was it checked and Ofsted said it was strict and if we went over it was an offence and we could be fined heavily or go to prison. Now this is quite serious. The discussion went on about how we were informed of such things and Ofsted said as we (childminders) are Self Employed and run our own business it was our responsibility to find out such things! Well red rag to a bull!! They went on to say that they (Ofsted) have a weekly newsletter that informs of all changes updates on legislation etc. and indeed they do, I subscribe to it but it is not Early Years specific so it can be a bit full! Anyway I pointed out that not all cm would know about this and not all are on FB groups, forums etc and indeed I have know 2 cm in the last 5 years who don't use a computer at all for religious reasons. I pointed out that although I agreed it was to a great extent our responsibility as business owners to keep ourselves up to date, when it came to legislation that affected our Registration that Ofsted, as our regulatory body had a responsibility to inform all of us individually. They said they didn't have all our email addresses to contact us so couldn't do that because they didn't know where we all were!! I pointed out that they didn't seem to have any difficulty in sending out our Registration Fee invoices or finding us for Inspections! They are going to look into it and did agree that maybe certain things should perhaps be circulated. I did however agree with Ofsted that some cm do need to become a bit better and more responsible about finding out things.


You may not like my style but do not try to judge as you hardly know me....stop smacking my hand as it is childish!
I started this thread to get a discussion going...not a fight with words....I strongly believe that article was wrong and many have read it and think the same....by that I meant the journalist not anyone else

As ever I believe than tackling things the right way and with positivity gets results....watch this space!


I believe in positive criticism as well it does get much better results. You have got some discussion going in this post.

I think the article is good and as I have said before the process the cm in the article went through has ended in her having a viable business so good.

I also think that because of the situation this Country finds itself in cuts have to be made and so things are being checked and that is not always an entirely fair or pleasant process hence Pacey helping cm who are going through it an others are helping as well which is very positive.

Anyhow sorry this is so long and Simona please add to this and correct anything I may have got wrong. I hope this helps.

Simona
28-01-2016, 07:08 PM
Thank you for your reply RS.
I will not get involved in discussions anymore but wish to reply to you.

I would just like to clarify a couple of things.
I do attend several meetings/conferences and much more ...as I said I do it for me and also to flag up Cms' issues, to keep informed, stay updated and also 'network' with the rest of the sector on any issues going on....at present the 30 hours is the one I get involved a lot in....and have done for a while to make sure the issue is not just about nurseries!!

Being a volunteer in my representing association I also attend their meetings several times a year and their AGM, of course, as I did when I was a Pacey member/volunteer many years ago....I am booked months in advance now.

if you were to look in the forum archives you will find lots of feedback from several conferences I have attended in the past.
I also have given feedback on Cms agencies conferences and meetings with the dreaded Sue Robb and Q&As with DfE on twitter.
I often mention my meeting with the Truss woman when all this kicked off!!

I always inform about OBC's dates and ask for questions to be raised or just pick up from discussions here.
The OBC feedback is now given by June O'Sullivan in her blog...which I think I have always posted here.
In addition there is the OBC website where anyone can log in and keep updated....you have attended OBC and can feedback also.

I do not do a full feedback as I have never being asked to do that...but I do give information ...I recall having done that the last few days about ratios and CIF in various posts in the forum.

June will blog soon on the last London OBC and I did say if she misses anything I will add to it as I also did speak to the HMI privately about ratios...again!!
I have spoken to June and I think she has it all covered.
I will post her blog here when it comes out if that helps.

I did feedback on ratios several times...my chain of emails with Ofsted and DfE but I felt no one really believed me...if that is the word? ....as the forum does vary in their support/advice on this issue....I came to a very friendly agreement with Rick to 'agree to disagree'! I am sure he remembers it!

I constantly say 'call Ofsted' if any cm needs help with ratios...something the OBC HMI last week said cms can do.

I am perfectly aware that my writing style is not 'up to scratch' but I have always info shared and supported any cms in good practice and posted nice links to research etc etc.
I hope to have helped many as they have also helped me.
My CPPD will have that as an 'action' to address in future...look at how I write.

I will be around and still busy with many EY and cms issues...hope to meet you all somewhere and I am on twitter for those who are there!
I will keep in touch.