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Kitty B
28-10-2015, 09:29 AM
Hi guys. For the last 3 years of childminding I've kept a monthly register (time on time out type thing) I get parents to sign roughly every month but often forget as some are in such a rush at pick up time! I was told when I started its seen as good practice and I've found it helpful when doing my tax return but do I really need to get parents to sign?? (That's the bit that's bugging me) is it a requirement?

mumofone
28-10-2015, 09:30 AM
Hi guys. For the last 3 years of childminding I've kept a monthly register (time on time out type thing) I get parents to sign roughly every month but often forget as some are in such a rush at pick up time! I was told when I started its seen as good practice and I've found it helpful when doing my tax return but do I really need to get parents to sign?? (That's the bit that's bugging me) is it a requirement?

Can I ask why it helps when doing you're tax return?

JCrakers
28-10-2015, 09:38 AM
My parents don't sign mine as I kept forgetting and then it fizzled out but I read a story on here (think is was RickySmiths) where a parent had questioned a time/day or something like that...and because parent had signed the register she was able to prove that the child was in attendance that day and had attended the hours stated.

I cant quite remember the whole story but it seemed to make a lot of sense at the time, even though I don't get mine to sign :laughing:

Kitty B
28-10-2015, 09:42 AM
Can I ask why it helps when doing you're tax return?
It's just handy to refer back to if I'm unsure of hours a particular child has done

mumofone
28-10-2015, 09:45 AM
My parents don't sign mine as I kept forgetting and then it fizzled out but I read a story on here (think is was RickySmiths) where a parent had questioned a time/day or something like that...and because parent had signed the register she was able to prove that the child was in attendance that day and had attended the hours stated. I cant quite remember the whole story but it seemed to make a lot of sense at the time, even though I don't get mine to sign :laughing:

I thought OFSTED were now making it obligatory to keep a register and for parents to sign?

Simona
28-10-2015, 09:46 AM
Hi guys. For the last 3 years of childminding I've kept a monthly register (time on time out type thing) I get parents to sign roughly every month but often forget as some are in such a rush at pick up time! I was told when I started its seen as good practice and I've found it helpful when doing my tax return but do I really need to get parents to sign?? (That's the bit that's bugging me) is it a requirement?

It depends on why you want the parents to sign the attendance register?
is there a requirement anywhere for this...or as you say just 'good practice'?
a tick on your register is evidence of attendance
I am unclear why you need it for your tax return?

if you need to verify attendance against what the parents pay that is easily done against your bank statement should they query it?.

One thing that may change in future...just a guess at the moment...is the use of EYPP...providers have to evidence how they use it and how it is closing the gap...again attendance is of importance but I have not seen a request for parents to countersign.

EYPP will show as income for the provider but will have to also show as an expense
I would also guess the LAs will enter the scene requesting this form or that ...as I have seen...as Ofsted will ask about attendance at inspection.


Good question...lots of reflection!!

BallyH
28-10-2015, 09:49 AM
I thought OFSTED were now making it obligatory to keep a register and for parents to sign?

You have to keep a register of days/hours attended plus when a chikd is sick or on holiday. My understanding is the timings have to be precise ie 8.14am. We also have to be on the lookout for a pattern of non attendance under safeguarding. My parents don't sign it.

JCrakers
28-10-2015, 10:06 AM
It's just handy to refer back to if I'm unsure of hours a particular child has done

I put food through per child...so 50p for snack, £1.50 per lunch etc so I do use my register to do my tax. :thumbsup:

Simona
28-10-2015, 10:07 AM
You have to keep a register of days/hours attended plus when a chikd is sick or on holiday. My understanding is the timings have to be precise ie 8.14am. We also have to be on the lookout for a pattern of non attendance under safeguarding. My parents don't sign it.

Can you be so kind and point us to where this requirement is written? maybe in a guidance? or a LA's condition?...maybe I have missed this.

We agree we need to keep a register...cms have done so for 35 years... but does it have to be countersigned by parents?
Schools do not have that request and they too have to monitor attendance...the CIF is now 'common practice' to EY and education so why the different request?

Yes we have to look out for non attendance pattern....as do schools....and we had to do that before but would that require parents' signature? or can it be done our own way without adding additional bureaucracy or paperwork?

I think the question was about parents signing not whether we keep a register?

Once again the statement was 'Ofsted need this'....but this was not linked up to this new request...it is the DfE that legislates we monitor attendance ...Ofsted judge how we do it....and LAs offer guidance on practice.
It is unhelpful to constantly say Ofsted 'expects' this of us.

I am sure that things will change in future once the DfE starts getting the first results on their investment!

Mouse
28-10-2015, 10:18 AM
It has always been a requirement that we keep a record of the times the children are on the premises, but it isn't a requirement to get the record signed.

This is what the EYFS says the requirement is to keep:

• a daily record of the names of the children being cared for on the premises, their
hours of attendance and the names of each child's key person;


I have always out times to the nearest 5 minutes and it's never been a problem, but I know some people put the time to the exact minute.

Simona
28-10-2015, 10:22 AM
I put food through per child...so 50p for snack, £1.50 per lunch etc so I do use my register to do my tax. :thumbsup:

Yes of course your register will help you in adding your charges...I see what you mean!!
you then record each monthly payment in your 'fees income ledger'? which allows you to make up the monthly invoice to parents
Your payments can then be checked against your bank statements once you have received them.

If HMRC needed to audit us they would not look at a register but only the documents/paperwork we have to keep by law.

Simona
28-10-2015, 10:27 AM
It has always been a requirement that we keep a record of the times the children are on the premises, but it isn't a requirement to get the record signed.

This is what the EYFS says the requirement is to keep:

• a daily record of the names of the children being cared for on the premises, their
hours of attendance and the names of each child's key person;


I have always out times to the nearest 5 minutes and it's never been a problem, but I know some people put the time to the exact minute.

Thank you for confirming exactly what others have said....maybe MOH misunderstood I was saying exactly the same as you?
no need to give us a link MOH ....EYFS is what I was hinting at! that is the legislation and rightly quoted by Mouse.
What is important is the hours contracted and funded for that are recorded!

rickysmiths
28-10-2015, 01:35 PM
I thought OFSTED were now making it obligatory to keep a register and for parents to sign?

It is not in EYFS and Ofsted can suddenly change something like this.

rickysmiths
28-10-2015, 01:41 PM
It has always been a requirement that we keep a record of the times the children are on the premises, but it isn't a requirement to get the record signed.

This is what the EYFS says the requirement is to keep:

• a daily record of the names of the children being cared for on the premises, their
hours of attendance and the names of each child's key person;


I have always out times to the nearest 5 minutes and it's never been a problem, but I know some people put the time to the exact minute.

I was inspected in Sept and the inspector looked at my Register (Pacey one) I record to the five mins and she was happy with the register so I assume she was happy with the record! My parents have always signed very week but that is my choice.

Mouse
28-10-2015, 01:51 PM
I was inspected in Sept and the inspector looked at my Register (Pacey one) I record to the five mins and she was happy with the register so I assume she was happy with the record!

Thanks for that.

I always think it would be difficult to get the time to the exact minute. The clocks in my house all say different times and Id never know whether I'd take the exact minute the parents knock at the door, the minute they leave and I shut the door etc. Recording the time to the nearest 5 minutes seems close enough to me! :thumbsup:

Simona
28-10-2015, 01:55 PM
Very good replies Rickysmiths....good to hear that about Ofsted.

As you clearly state parents do not have to sign...it is our option to make them do so!
So many myths that need busting about what Ofsted expect from us and what is their remit to see as evidence.

loocyloo
28-10-2015, 04:58 PM
Thanks for that.

I always think it would be difficult to get the time to the exact minute. The clocks in my house all say different times and Id never know whether I'd take the exact minute the parents knock at the door, the minute they leave and I shut the door etc. Recording the time to the nearest 5 minutes seems close enough to me! :thumbsup:

Same here!

If parents pick up from me, then they sign. But if meet at school etc, then they don't sign!

rachelle
28-10-2015, 07:48 PM
My register is in my diary, just a column for in and out times. No one signs it except me, I do sign the end of each day (I'm not sure why :laughing: )
Mrs O was pleased with it, gave me the impression it was about safeguarding more than her needing to know who was in. I have no ages on my register anyhow, she'd have to cross reference them to the booking grid at the front and she didn't!

Simona
29-10-2015, 09:18 AM
Thank goodness for that...we have agreed that parents DO NOT require to sign the register...that is our choice if we want to add more on our daily chores list.

Hours of attendance are to be recorded...nothing new there!!

Parents can sign at our settings but not if collecting from schools...it must be confusing to them why they do not have to sign the school's register each day though?....perish the thought!!!...poor teachers can you imagine getting 30 parents plus to sign their register??!!

loz1970
29-10-2015, 03:43 PM
Hi, it is not a requirement for parents to sign your register, only for you to record the times the children arrive and leave, I recently had my inspection in September this year and the inspector looked at my register just to look to see if I was recording the times in and out and had their names on it, parents do not need to sign it.

mumofone
29-10-2015, 07:07 PM
If parents don't sign though surely a childminder can make up any hours etc on her register so this doesn't hold up in a safeguarding situation at all?

loz1970
30-10-2015, 07:53 AM
If parents don't sign though surely a childminder can make up any hours etc on her register so this doesn't hold up in a safeguarding situation at all?


The Ofsted inspector is purely concerned with making sure you are recording the names and hours of the children that attend, from my last inspection in September this year, the inspector had absolutely no interest in whether parents had signed it at all, in fact the question of parents signing wasn't even asked.
I assume they take the standpoint that the majority of cm are professionals and will put the correct details in rather than assuming that cm will just write down any old times!

Simona
30-10-2015, 08:44 AM
If parents don't sign though surely a childminder can make up any hours etc on her register so this doesn't hold up in a safeguarding situation at all?

Not sure what you are saying?
if you feel you are better off with parents signing your register then you must adopt that policy for yourself.

Mouse
30-10-2015, 09:12 AM
If parents don't sign though surely a childminder can make up any hours etc on her register so this doesn't hold up in a safeguarding situation at all?

Years ago, before Ofsted even existed, we did have to get parents to sign the register. Parents never checked what they were signing and would simply sign where I told them to. I could have written anything and it made me realise what a farce it was.

I doubt it would have held up to scrutiny in a serious safeguarding situation as parents would just say they'd signed it without checking times. So even with a signature I dont see how it would be accepted as absolute proof of a child's attendance.

mumofone
30-10-2015, 09:33 AM
Not sure what you are saying? if you feel you are better off with parents signing your register then you must adopt that policy for yourself.

Yep I do, but I'm just wondering why everyone doesn't do this. Without anyone counter signing it means nothing surely? A bit like not getting parents to sign what medicine you give a child.

Simona
30-10-2015, 09:33 AM
Mouse... I remember those days well ...no Ofsted but Social Services and they did know their job!!

I learnt a long time ago that recording the children actual arrival and leaving time has a very good purpose in case of any investigation/accident....not just safeguarding....parents may not notice what they are signing but that is up to them

I am sure what I learnt still stands and it still makes sense to me....time to me is more important than a signature....but that is personal because I can double check attendance in other ways.

I do remember operating before Ofsted arrival in our EY world...when they took over from Social Services but there was no need for signatures then as there is not one now....however...we are free to impose that condition on parents if it helps/reassures us although schools do not do so and we share the CIF.
The only problem now is that we have Ofsted 'expecting' this and that and often this is not true

in a investigation...of any sort... nothing would be left unturned...the register is not the only way to account for attendance especially if we want to check payments?

If anyone has doubts they can contact their local safeguarding team and clarify with them if a signature is important? or ask that question at their next Safeguarding training.

mumofone
30-10-2015, 09:35 AM
Years ago, before Ofsted even existed, we did have to get parents to sign the register. Parents never checked what they were signing and would simply sign where I told them to. I could have written anything and it made me realise what a farce it was. I doubt it would have held up to scrutiny in a serious safeguarding situation as parents would just say they'd signed it without checking times. So even with a signature I dont see how it would be accepted as absolute proof of a child's attendance.

Yep I get this totally and think my parents too sign without really reading properly but you couldn't get away signing sonething elsewhere in life and then claiming that you "didn't mean to" so surely this is the same.

Simona
30-10-2015, 09:47 AM
Yep I do, but I'm just wondering why everyone doesn't do this. Without anyone counter signing it means nothing surely? A bit like not getting parents to sign what medicine you give a child.

You have asked your parents to sign attendance but ask why other cms don't? because it is not a statutory requirement in the EYFS and has never been.
If your parents sign without checking that is a futile exercise

I am more than sure that this will change in future for other purposes....let's wait and see.
The medicine policy is different because EYFS says you MUST get a signature following review of this practice....that is clear, for attendance it is us who decide at the moment.....some do it for safeguarding issues , others for payment issues.

Mouse
30-10-2015, 09:55 AM
Yep I get this totally and think my parents too sign without really reading properly but you couldn't get away signing sonething elsewhere in life and then claiming that you "didn't mean to" so surely this is the same.

I agree. You probably couldn't sign a financial document, for example, the plead ignorance, but it would be very different in a safeguarding or criminal investigation. A signature on a register would not be taken as proof that the child was definitely in your care between the times stated. There would need to be more proof than that. It would certainly help, but parents could just as easily deny it was even their signature. If you're saying a childminder could make up times, they could also forge a signature.

A signature has been shown to be useful (Rickysmith is a a good example as she did use the signature to prove a child was or wasn't in her care, I can't remember exact details), but in a serious case where parents disputed thee times, it wouldn't be taken as absolute proof.

I agree it could be useful to have a signature if you want one, but personally I don't think it's the definitive proof that some people think it is. If it was so vital, why don't other EYs settings ask for signatures?

Mouse
30-10-2015, 10:16 AM
Posted twice

k1rstie
01-11-2015, 04:07 PM
I knew a minder who had her register next to the from door, and the parents self registered themselves in and out each day. That worked well for her.

My DO, always says that they should be signed, in case the parents try to claim that the child was with you, when in fact they weren't. There was a case recently, where mums boyfriend caused several injuries to a baby, and claimed it was whilst in the childminders care. The childminder was able to show, from her registers that the child was not there at those times.

I personally think, that often with mum dropping off, dad picking up, and grandma always picks up after lunch on a Wednesday, that one signature at the end of the week, or worse at the end of the month, does not really confirm a child's attendance.

There are minders who do not keep registers, or just have the days and times written in their diaries for the month coming up. I have known/ do know childminders who do this.

natlou82
01-11-2015, 09:47 PM
Thanks for this thread, I used to ask parents to sign but was quite forgetful. Because I had been charging session / daily charges I didn't really see much point to the parents signing so haven't done it recently. The safeguarding issues you have highlighted on this thread have made me realise I need to get back on the ball.

Simona
02-11-2015, 10:19 AM
We have deviated a lot from the OP which was about weekly/monthly register and whether they are required.

We can all decide what suits us best in terms of finances ...if we link a register/attendance to fees

For attendance purposes a register has to be taken 'daily' as they do in schools

When it comes to safeguarding there are 2 reason when irregular attendance can trigger our concerns: child protection and FGM.
if we have monitored the situation and we feel worried we cannot wait for the parents to come back and sign...we have to act.

One other point to consider...most Cms charge for fees in advance and for contracted hours in that month...not sure what the signature is for? just curious.

JCrakers
02-11-2015, 10:37 AM
Yep I do, but I'm just wondering why everyone doesn't do this. Without anyone counter signing it means nothing surely? A bit like not getting parents to sign what medicine you give a child.

the reason I stopped is because I have roughly 9 children per day and after around 4yrs of signing I just discovered that it wasn't worth it, somedays I forgot. One child in particular was picked up from the Preschool carpark as I picked another child up and didn't have chance to sign.
It just got too much.. sometimes 4 parents would arrive at the same time and everyone wanted to talk, all the children were excited and signing the register was not at the front of my mind.

I don't have enough room in the hall for the register, no table to put it on otherwise getting parents to sign In would be a great idea :D


Schools don't get the parent to sign their child in and I never did it at Preschool.

greenfaerie
03-11-2015, 01:02 PM
I started getting parents to sign the register at the end of the week, simply because there is a space at the bottom of it for their signature. I like having us both sign as an agreement that the times stated are the times that their child attended. I do see it as proof of when their child was with me, billing isn't necessarily proof, as if a child is sick/absent for another reason they still pay full fees.

I understand people not wanting to take on more tasks if it's not a requirement, but I'd rather it was done, since the space is there for them to sign. :)

mumofone
03-11-2015, 01:33 PM
I started getting parents to sign the register at the end of the week, simply because there is a space at the bottom of it for their signature. I like having us both sign as an agreement that the times stated are the times that their child attended. I do see it as proof of when their child was with me, billing isn't necessarily proof, as if a child is sick/absent for another reason they still pay full fees. I understand people not wanting to take on more tasks if it's not a requirement, but I'd rather it was done, since the space is there for them to sign. :)

Yep this explains why I do too :-)