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mumofone
10-09-2015, 07:00 PM
Ok before I begin please go easy as I realise this may be a very dumb question I'm about to ask (yes, another one). If I were to look after 2 children (baby & toddler) on top of my own 1 year old and another pre-schooler and the baby and toddler overlapped with the pre schooler (bringing me to 4 under 5) by just 2.5 hours on 2 days is this allowed in any circumstance? Am I still im my ratios here or do I go over with 4 under 5?

moggy
10-09-2015, 07:10 PM
The list of who is on your books is not important to Ofsted. So let's focus on the overlap in question. Is this right- you'd have:

1] your own baby
2] mindee baby
3] mindee toddler
4] mindee pre-schooler

all for 2.5 hrs 2 days a week?

Yes?

It depends on the circumstances of how and when you signed each contract:

If you have 3 already and then the 4th was added because you gave birth to your own new baby or a new mindee-sibling baby was born that is OK (RA and inform all parents).

If you have 3 already and then the 4th was added because the 4th child was already on your books at other days/times but parents' needs changed, such as work-shifts changing, and it was in the child's best interests to stay in your care, that is OK (RA and inform all parents).

If you have 3 already and then the 4th was added because it was a new enquiry, new family and you just wanted to take on the work, that is not OK. The family need to go elsewhere.

There are many takes on this but I think that is correct.

moggy
10-09-2015, 07:14 PM
Wanted to add- if it is a new enquiry, options are for the family or one of the other families to change their hours/days or you take on an assistant for those 2.5 hour each day.

It may seem like 'just' 2.5 hours. But, put it in context- 2.5 hours is nearly a whole pre-school session, a whole morning and a significant amount of time for you to be over numbers.

FussyElmo
10-09-2015, 07:22 PM
If you are asking if you can take on two children when you only have 2 children then the answer is no.

You only have 1 space left :D

mumofone
10-09-2015, 07:37 PM
Wanted to add- if it is a new enquiry, options are for the family or one of the other families to change their hours/days or you take on an assistant for those 2.5 hour each day. It may seem like 'just' 2.5 hours. But, put it in context- 2.5 hours is nearly a whole pre-school session, a whole morning and a significant amount of time for you to be over numbers.

Hi moggy, I currently have my own baby (over 1 year) and pre schooler. This is a new enquiry for one baby (under 1) and one toddler (siblings)....so is this a no...I can't take the baby and toddler siblings on?

Simona
10-09-2015, 08:23 PM
The ratio for CMs is 6 under 8
As confirmed by Ofsted Gill Jones in her recent clear statement CMs can increase their number in certain circumstances with appropriate RA etc etc.

A child over 1 year of age is not a baby.
CMs can have 4 under 5 or even more ...please let's stop confusing this issue
If unsure do attend one of the many OBC meetings and put the question directly to Ofsted but I feel they have clarified this matter many times over.
It is up to each individual cm to decide on any increase in numbers.

Blueeyedminder
11-09-2015, 06:47 AM
The ratio for CMs is 6 under 8 As confirmed by Ofsted Gill Jones in her recent clear statement CMs can increase their number in certain circumstances with appropriate RA etc etc. A child over 1 year of age is not a baby. CMs can have 4 under 5 or even more ...please let's stop confusing this issue If unsure do attend one of the many OBC meetings and put the question directly to Ofsted but I feel they have clarified this matter manytimes over. It is up to each individual cm to decide on any increase in numbers.

Why on earth are you so patronising? Get off your high horse and sort that chip on your shoulder out!

moggy
11-09-2015, 06:50 AM
The ratio for CMs is 6 under 8
As confirmed by Ofsted Gill Jones in her recent clear statement CMs can increase their number in certain circumstances with appropriate RA etc etc.

A child over 1 year of age is not a baby.
CMs can have 4 under 5 or even more ...please let's stop confusing this issue
If unsure do attend one of the many OBC meetings and put the question directly to Ofsted but I feel they have clarified this matter many times over.
It is up to each individual cm to decide on any increase in numbers.

'in certain circumstances'... yes, mindee siblings, own baby, parent's changing shifts, if your own child is in nursery and you have alternative care for them (and maybe other particular special case?)... But Mumofone is talking about taking on new business. I have never heard of new business being a circumstance that DofEd allow you to go over 3 EYFS. Do you know otherwise? I think it is confusing to say each CM 'can decide'!

mumofone
11-09-2015, 07:05 AM
If you are asking if you can take on two children when you only have 2 children then the answer is no. You only have 1 space left :D

Thanks fussy, I wondered if them being siblings was ok (mum wants to keep them together etc) but realise it then takes me to 4 children under 5.

Simona
11-09-2015, 08:28 AM
'in certain circumstances'... yes, mindee siblings, own baby, parent's changing shifts, if your own child is in nursery and you have alternative care for them (and maybe other particular special case?)... But Mumofone is talking about taking on new business. I have never heard of new business being a circumstance that DofEd allow you to go over 3 EYFS. Do you know otherwise? I think it is confusing to say each CM 'can decide'!

Thank you for your reply Moggy
if you ring the DfE or Ofsted that is exactly what they will advise...it is up to the individual cm to decide

As you know I have corresponded extensively with the DfE on this matter and have reported and copied what their reply is on cms ratio here.

The DfE...in their replies...have covered both 'Continuity of care and 'new business' and they were very clear on what an increase can be for.
I posted it here but the forum said it was contradictory to what Ofsted told them.
The EYFS is written by the DfE and Ofsted need to follow that.
You can read the comments exchanged here with Rick.

I have also written and questioned Ofsted itself on several occasions including London Ofsted Big Conversation in June...the Enforcement Officer was very clear in her response to me.....and the room was fairly full with attendees.
I have never been confused on ratios but what I read in this forum is very confusing.

Unfortunately cms have been very afraid of 'increasing' their numbers in the past and continue to 'misinterpret' what the EYFS actually allows cms to do.
Cms have been downgraded on this issue ...not for the increase...but because the care of all children was compromised...Ofsted will confirm that if you ask.

The only way to be sure is to call Ofsted or refer this matter to our representing associations so that the EYFS can be updated
I have tried to get this sorted for years.

This is Gill Jones message to cms regarding an increase....someone ought to contact her and get this issue sorted once and for all.


At the recent Pacey conference Ofsted have clarified the issue of the ratios for CMs
This is the message which also addresses 'continuity of care' and when this could be considered by a cm who wished to apply it .

''Following on from PACEY’s spring conference, where the issue of child ratios for childminders was raised, Ofsted has helped clarify the issue and has shared the following guidance, which has also been given to their inspectors and helpline staff:

The EYFS provides the standard ratios but also recognises circumstances where these ratios can change so that the needs of children and their families are met. Paragraphs 3.30 and 3.42 advise that: ‘exceptionally, and where the quality of care and safety and security of children is maintained, exceptions to the ratios may be made’. For example exceptions can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies or when caring for their own baby. There may also be other adjustments to the ratios, for example where children need continuity of care.

Inspectors must ensure that the quality of care is not compromised by a childminder caring for more children and that they meet the needs of all the children in their care. Exceeding the ratio is not a breach in itself unless the childminder is failing to meet the needs of all children.

The Department for Education (DfE) has published some frequently asked questions (FAQs) which provide further guidance.

If you receive information that is different to the above guidance, Ofsted has advised that you take the name of the person, the date and time of the call and report it to them to investigate further''

Further information can be found on the 4 Children Foundation Years website under the FAQs section
Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.foundationyears.org.uk/2015/03/frequently-asked-questions-childminder-ratios/)

In defence I am not patronising...that is the way I write and I apologise if my style comes across like that...we are all different
I am factual and only respond when I am sure of what I am talking about
It is only in this forum that I find insulting language used and allowed