Terminate part time to have full time child?

[S Stars]

Hello

I've not been on here for a while! Am hoping someone can offer me some advise!?
I have signed contracts with a family about 6 weeks ago to take on their 12 month old for two mornings a week - 6 hour dive since had a enquiry who want to use me and would be 27 hours a week which I can only do if I don't have the first child.
My question is should I honour my first agreement and hope I can fill the afternoons or do I terminate the contract ( due to start September) in favour for the full time child?
I have not given notice before and am worried that the parents will think I'm unreliable but at the same time my business head says it's the right thing to do but morally it's not!?

Thanks in advance xx

[mumofone]

I'd do what makes you the most money financially as youre a business but I think
Most people will respond to say you should honour your first parents.

[chris goodyear]

It's not something I would do and have always managed to fill awkward part time spaces. O.K it does make for more children but that can be a good thing as well as there can be a different mix of children. On the down side it can be hard in the holidays as we have to fit in gong out inbetween the comings and goings. Saying that as you haven't actually started with this child yet and if you really, really need the extra income maybe you could say that your circumstances have changed and can no longer honour the place but it might damage your reputation and to me that's the most important thing and it will stand you in good stead as the years go by.

[QualityCare]

It's not something l would do l see it as very unprofessional put yourself in the parents shoes how would you feel if it was done to you?

[natlou82]

I agree with the others I remember learning once that when you've received good service you typically tell 1 person but if you receive bad service you typically tell 7 people. Gossip travels fast so morally and to protect your reputation I would stick with the first, bearing in mind you were happy with the agreement when you signed contracts. Often parents increase hours too, my one day a week has become my only full timer!

[Mrs Scrubbit]

Not something that I ever did when I c/minded. You knew and accepted their requirements when drawing up the contract, personally I think it would look bad and could give your business a bad name

[Simona]

Mumofone....Definetely we need to look after our businesses and ensure we are sustainable but we cannot act in a manner that may put potential customer off and ruin our reputation...without mentioning a parent complaining to Ofsted?

News will soon go around if a parent has been treated unfairly and that will spoil it for all of us....word of mouth is very useful but also very dangerous
Giving notice to a parent to take on another for more money can be 'seen' as discriminatory and breach equal concern issues...so caution is required.

SStar...Cms are allowed to look after 6 children under 8...that is in the EYFS 2012 and it has been discussed until we are all blue in the face and kind of sick of the topic.

Could it be 'possible' that you could consider your ratio in this?...talk to all the parents, Risk Assess and then if you are still not sure call Ofsted and ask for support.

Ofsted itself recently published a statement about Cms and our ratio and the conflicting advice we have been receiving.
The DfE also has confirmed cms can look after 6 children under 8...check it out and it may turn out to be something you can do

[S Stars]

Thank you all so much for your replies :-) I totally agree and know deep down that I would not be comfortable terminating the agreement I've already made.

With regards to the ratios I thought we could only have 3 unless it's for continuity of care?
I work closely with another minder would I be right in thinking we could work together for the hours that my numbers would overlap - would be 3 hours on two days xx

[Mouse]

I'd do what makes you the most money financially as youre a business but I think
Most people will respond to say you should honour your first parents.

Look at it from another point of view.

What if you had booked in advance for 2 of you to go for a meal. The restaurant accepts your booking and you're all set to go.

Then they get a call from a family of 6 wanting to book the table, but they can't fit them in because of your booking.

If the restauarant phoned you and said they were sorry but they had to cancel your booking because they had a larger party coming in, would you say "that's fine. You're a business and and you have to do whatever makes you the most money?"

[Simona]

Thank you all so much for your replies :-) I totally agree and know deep down that I would not be comfortable terminating the agreement I've already made.

With regards to the ratios I thought we could only have 3 unless it's for continuity of care?
I work closely with another minder would I be right in thinking we could work together for the hours that my numbers would overlap - would be 3 hours on two days xx

I am sorry that the ratio issue has caused a lot of confusion ...continuity of care or new business or else.
If you work with another cm the matter is totally different

Please read this statement from Gill Jones which she gave at the recent Pacey conference to clarify this issue...also the EYFS does state what you can do....although not very clearly
As said ...if in doubt call Ofsted or even better the DfE ...or 4Children who have been given the task to clarify...the info is on their foundation Years website.

This is the statement by Gill Jones

At the recent Pacey conference Ofsted have clarified the issue of the ratios for CMs
This is the message which also addresses 'continuity of care' and when this could be considered by a cm who wished to apply it .

''Following on from PACEY’s spring conference, where the issue of child ratios for childminders was raised, Ofsted has helped clarify the issue and has shared the following guidance, which has also been given to their inspectors and helpline staff:

The EYFS provides the standard ratios but also recognises circumstances where these ratios can change so that the needs of children and their families are met. Paragraphs 3.30 and 3.42 advise that: ‘exceptionally, and where the quality of care and safety and security of children is maintained, exceptions to the ratios may be made’. For example exceptions can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies or when caring for their own baby. There may also be other adjustments to the ratios, for example where children need continuity of care.

Inspectors must ensure that the quality of care is not compromised by a childminder caring for more children and that they meet the needs of all the children in their care. Exceeding the ratio is not a breach in itself unless the childminder is failing to meet the needs of all children.

The Department for Education (DfE) has published some frequently asked questions (FAQs) which provide further guidance.

If you receive information that is different to the above guidance, Ofsted has advised that you take the name of the person, the date and time of the call and report it to them to investigate further''

Further information can be found on the 4 Children Foundation Years website under the FAQs section
Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.foundationyears.org.uk/2015/03/frequently-asked-questions-childminder-ratios/)

[mumofone]

Some CMs aren't even turning over a profit though by doing this which is crazy to me. I guess it depends how much you're doing childminding for a sustainable livelihood and income versus doing it for the love of the job. I don't mind admitting I'm in it for the former of these.

[Simona]

Some CMs aren't even turning over a profit though by doing this which is crazy to me. I guess it depends how much you're doing childminding for a sustainable livelihood and income versus doing it for the love of the job. I don't mind admitting I'm in it for the former of these.

Totally...no point in running a small business and not make some profit which in turn pays our bills.
If cms are not turning over a profit that means they are running at a loss or breaking even...why?

Many cms do keep their profits low for various reasons though...one being Tax credits.
I have never believed that people do this for 'the love of the job'...yes we must love children to be doing this but...!?
CMs have always been known for being cheaper but that maybe a bit difficult now with the 'childcare market' much loved by this govt.
Interesting times ahead!

[Mouse]

Some CMs aren't even turning over a profit though by doing this which is crazy to me. I guess it depends how much you're doing childminding for a sustainable livelihood and income versus doing it for the love of the job. I don't mind admitting I'm in it for the former of these.

I don't believe that thinking it's OK to get rid of one child in favour of a better contract is based on a person's motivation for being a childminder.

I am definitely in this job for the money. I do love childminding, but I don't do it for the love of it! My reputation is very important to me and I wouldn't damage that by coming across as unreliable.

There are definitely instances where childminders have no choice but to give notice to one family when something better comes along, but I'd hope they'd do it as the last resort rather than an easy option to maximise their profits.

[Kirstylob]

I have had 1 set of parents who had signed contracts with a CM I know. Contracts were signed and all agreed in the Feb to start in the June. Mum was able to relax and enjoy her last few months of mat leave safe in the knowledge that everything regarding childcare was sorted. BUT the CM then contacted them in the May to say that she had changed her mind and now couldn't have the child. Cue one panicking family. Luckily I could help and 3 years later and the child is leaving for school. The same CM has more recently offered a place to another child who has just moved to the village. Parents were happy with everything and said wanted to go ahead. No response from the CM. After several attempts by the parent to contact her, they received a text again saying she had changed her mind and couldn't have the child. Another panicking family looking for care that they thought they had sorted. Be very careful when ending a contract. You need to build a reliable reputation and not one that shows you as unreliable.

[Blueeyedminder]

Mumofone....Definetely we need to look after our businesses and ensure we are sustainable but we cannot act in a manner that may put potential customer off and ruin our reputation...without mentioning a parent complaining to Ofsted? News will soon go around if a parent has been treated unfairly and that will spoil it for all of us....word of mouth is very useful but also very dangerous Giving notice to a parent to take on another for more money can be 'seen' as discriminatory and breach equal concern issues...so caution is required. SStar...Cms are allowed to look after 6 children under 8...that is in the EYFS 2012 and it has been discussed until we are all blue in the face and kind of sick of the topic. Could it be 'possible' that you could consider your ratio in this?...talk to all the parents, Risk Assess and then if you are still not sure call Ofsted and ask for support. Ofsted itself recently published a statement about Cms and our ratio and the conflicting advice we have been receiving. The DfE also has confirmed cms can look after 6 children under 8...check it out and it may turn out to be something you can do

I disagree with regards to Ofsted and discrimination. Ofsted do not get involved with contractual matters and you should never not end a contract through fear of a parent complaining to Ofsted. Same for discrimination, if you give correct notice and follow the contract your back is covered.

Do what's best for you, your family and business.

:)

[Simona]

I disagree with regards to Ofsted and discrimination. Ofsted do not get involved with contractual matters and you should never not end a contract through fear of a parent complaining to Ofsted. Same for discrimination, if you give correct notice and follow the contract your back is covered.

Do what's best for you, your family and business.

:)

I don't think for one minute I suggested Ofsted get involved in our businesses....I think I have known that from the start
we do not agree on not having the problem of parents raising a complaint after what they see as unfair notice....have you experienced that?...maybe not.

Read my comment and you will find your comments are unfair and you have misjudged what I said.....no problem.
We are entitled to give notice if we truly cannot cater for parents' requirements...the issue here is different.

I also believe that if you give notice to a part time family to take on a full time one is In a way discriminatory...that is my view and I respect if you feel otherwise
I suggested an alternative to be considered....that is up to the OP to take into account.
There is truly no need for such unpleasant replies when this is supposed to be a supporting forum

[Blueeyedminder]

I don't think for one minute I suggested Ofsted get involved in our businesses....I think I have known that from the start we do not agree on not having the problem of parents raising a complaint after what they see as unfair notice....have you experienced that?...maybe not. Read my comment and you will find your comments are unfair and you have misjudged what I said.....no problem. We are entitled to give notice if we truly cannot cater for parents' requirements...the issue here is different. I also believe that if you give notice to a part time family to take on a full time one is In a way discriminatory...that is my view and I respect if you feel otherwise I suggested an alternative to be considered....that is up to the OP to take into account. There is truly no need for such unpleasant replies when this is supposed to be a supporting forum

First of all my comment was not unpleasant in any way, I was giving some advice to the OP.

I think you've got your wires crossed. I was not suggesting that you said Ofsted would get involved. I was simply stating to OP that Ofsted would not get involved as you mentioned a parent might complain to Ofsted.

P.S This is not an unpleasant post

[bunyip]

Is "discriminatory" a 'label' ?

Hmmmmmmmmmm....................................... .........................;)

[mumofone]

Look at it from another point of view. What if you had booked in advance for 2 of you to go for a meal. The restaurant accepts your booking and you're all set to go. Then they get a call from a family of 6 wanting to book the table, but they can't fit them in because of your booking. If the restauarant phoned you and said they were sorry but they had to cancel your booking because they had a larger party coming in, would you say "that's fine. You're a business and and you have to do whatever makes you the most money?"

No id be ****** off but that's not to say I wouldn't understand why they did it! :-)

[Simona]

Blueeyedminder...thank you for your reply
You did reply by copying my comment so I took it you were directing the answer at me.

Mumofone....I am sure that restaurant would try their best to accommodate both customers and see if they could fit both bookings in rather than cancel one family in favour of another...even though there is more money involved?
By accommodating the 2 they would double their income for the night...which makes good business sense

In a way this is possible with Cms and with SStar in particular, who posted the original question, because there is an alternative if she is willing to consider it...it is called increasing your numbers under the right circumstances Cms can do so
Remember the restaurant is not bound by a contract while in this issue there is one to consider....in both cases 'reputation' will either suffer or benefit from it.

Bunyip....I am rather amused at the fun you poke regarding 'LABELS'....there are discussions elsewhere where labels are not acceptable to some people ....or is it just directed at me personally?
Is discriminatory a label? ...this is what Thesaurus says about discriminatory, amongst other adjectives: favouring, preferential...so fits in well with this issue.
If I chose to act that way then yes I would call myself discriminatory.

[Mouse]

No id be p!ssed off but that's not to say I wouldn't understand why they did it! :-)

But what would you say to anyone considering using that restaurant?

I don't think I could be so magnanimous and say "well, they cancelled us at the last minute so they could make more money, but that's fine, I understand why"?
I'd be more than likely to tell everyone to avoid them as they're unreliable!

[mama2three]

But what would you say to anyone considering using that restaurant?

I don't think I could be so magnanimous and say "well, they cancelled us at the last minute so they could make more money, but that's fine, I understand why"?
I'd be more than likely to tell everyone to avoid them as they're unreliable!

Me too. And once it becomes known that they do this then they will lose booking after booking - noone will book a special dinner if they cant be sure they wont get cancelled. What they have gained in income in the short term will have a big impact on their long term profitability. Just as it could for a childminder.

[bunyip]

Personally I find it sad that the word "discriminating" has completely changed its meaning in my lifetime.

Previously, it was a good thing to be discriminating. Now it's a bad thing. All because the word has been hijacked and its meaning twisted. :(

It used to denote good taste and able to make good choices and judgements. Now it's just another ".....ism"-based label.

[Simona]

Personally I find it sad that the word "discriminating" has completely changed its meaning in my lifetime.

Previously, it was a good thing to be discriminating. Now it's a bad thing. All because the word has been hijacked and its meaning twisted. :(

It used to denote good taste and able to make good choices and judgements. Now it's just another ".....ism"-based label.

I maybe wrong Buynip but what you are referring to is : Discerning?...or is the English dictionary confusing me?
Do bear in mind English is not my 1st language

[Blueeyedminder]

I don't believe you can compare a booking a table at a restaurant and cancelling a cm contact.
There's a contract involved with an agreed notice period included.

I charged a flat fee of £30 a day per child regardless of the hours they required to avoid the situation OP is in.

[Simona]

I don't believe you can compare a booking a table at a restaurant and cancelling a cm contact.
There's a contract involved with an agreed notice period included.

I charged a flat fee of £30 a day per child regardless of the hours they required to avoid the situation OP is in.

I see where you are coming from...you can terminate a contract and give agreed notice
OR
you can terminate a contract immediately with 'fees payable in lieu'....this comes from one of the associations representing cms and solicitor's advice.

Charging a flat fee...yes but is that not what parents are complaining about? being charged for hours not required?

I did suggest that in both cases...restaurant or cm...there is an alternative: trying, if possible, to accommodate both.

If I was presented with the same situation, rather than give notice to the part timer I would look at how to accommodate both and look at my ratios....I know this is something Cms are a little worried about but it can be done.

[FussyElmo]

I don't believe you can compare a booking a table at a restaurant and cancelling a cm contact.
There's a contract involved with an agreed notice period included.

I charged a flat fee of £30 a day per child regardless of the hours they required to avoid the situation OP is in.

I don't think the comparison is between a cm and a restaurant more the fact that wherever you get bad service you are more than likely to tell people of that bad service . I think its 1 person will tell 1 person of good service but 1 person will tell 7 people of bad service. Then the waterfall effect of those people telling others.

Maybe keeping the child on less hours is not good business sense for the cm involved however terminating because a better contract comes along could lead to the cm gaining a bad reputation locally.

However if it makes the difference for the cm financially and money is why we do the job.

Its a very difficult situation to be in and one that only the cm in question can really make.

Personally I don't take on contracts that I think I would get terminate if something better came along but I don like the variation of days that's part timers give me :)

[bunyip]

I maybe wrong Buynip but what you are referring to is : Discerning?...or is the English dictionary confusing me?
Do bear in mind English is not my 1st language

Evidently.

[S Stars]

Thanks for your replies .... How can I accomodate both as it would take me to 4 under 5 for two mornings? As far as I understand it I can't do this for new business? X

[Mouse]

Thanks for your replies .... How can I accomodate both as it would take me to 4 under 5 for two mornings? As far as I understand it I can't do this for new business? X

I agree with you and would say you can't do it as it's not an exceptional circumstance. I know the EYFS doesn't specifically mention 'new business' or 'continuity of care', but they do tend to cover when you can or can't exceed your numbers. Simona is confident that there are circumstances when you can exceed your numbers for new children, but it's something youhave to be certain about as you're the one who would have to justify it not her.

[Simona]

Evidently.

Check the English dictionary and Thesaurus :thumbsup:

[Simona]

Thanks for your replies .... How can I accomodate both as it would take me to 4 under 5 for two mornings? As far as I understand it I can't do this for new business? X

Read the message from Gill Jones again.....you can have 4 children under 5
If unclear check with Ofsted ...that is what they say we need to do ...or even better call the DFE and get it clarified
There have been reported cases of CMs having 4 and even 5 children under 5 ...in the right circumstances it is allowed...follow the EYFS and make sure you do all the required assessments.

[Simona]

[QUOTE=FussyElmo;1405548]I don't think the comparison is between a cm and a restaurant more the fact that wherever you get bad service you are more than likely to tell people of that bad service . I think its 1 person will tell 1 person of good service but 1 person will tell 7 people of bad service. Then the waterfall effect of those people telling others.

Maybe keeping the child on less hours is not good business sense for the cm involved however terminating because a better contract comes along could lead to the cm gaining a bad reputation locally.

However if it makes the difference for the cm financially and money is why we do the job.

Its a very difficult situation to be in and one that only the cm in question can really make.

Personally I don't take on contracts that I think I would get terminate if something better came along but I don like the variation of days that's part timers give me :)[/QUOTE

I don't think any cm takes on children with the intention of terminating a contract if something better comes along
I fail to understand why no one has mentioned that a variation is possible in this case...or is the ratio for CMs still unclear and CMs fearful they cannot do it?

I think it has been clarified very well by Ofsted and DfE that it can be done
If this was something that was happening to me I would not hesitate to increase my ratios having followed all the guidelines,

[Simona]

I agree with you and would say you can't do it as it's not an exceptional circumstance. I know the EYFS doesn't specifically mention 'new business' or 'continuity of care', but they do tend to cover when you can or can't exceed your numbers. Simona is confident that there are circumstances when you can exceed your numbers for new children, but it's something youhave to be certain about as you're the one who would have to justify it not her.

It is not me who is confident that we can increase our ratios...it is what Ofsted and DfE have clarified several times for CMs.
I have reams of emails from DfE to confirm that...but this issue will go on and on because CMs have lost confidence in what they can do for fear of being downgraded.
CMs have been downgraded in the past....not for having more than 3 under 5 but because they care of the children was not good enough....that is what the Ofsted panel told us at the London OBC
I have raised this issue at all the OBC meetings and I have attended them all...the answer has always been the same...yes it can be done as long as the care of all children is not compromised.

I also know of CMs who were graded either good or outstanding with more than 3 children
I hope someone gets it sorted for everyone's sake.


The ratio for CMs in the EYFS is 6 under 8
I will try to contact the Ofsted woman again next week.

[Mouse]

It is not me who is confident that we can increase our ratios...it is what Ofsted and DfE have clarified several times for CMs.
I have reams of emails from DfE to confirm that...but this issue will go on and on because CMs have lost confidence in what they can do for fear of being downgraded.
CMs have been downgraded in the past....not for having more than 3 under 5 but because they care of the children was not good enough....that is what the Ofsted panel told us at the London OBC
I have raised this issue at all the OBC meetings and I have attended them all...the answer has always been the same...yes it can be done as long as the care of all children is not compromised.

I also know of CMs who were graded either good or outstanding with more than 3 children
I hope someone gets it sorted for everyone's sake.


The ratio for CMs in the EYFS is 6 under 8
I will try to contact the Ofsted woman again next week.

I think this is one of those things we'll have to agree to differ on Simona, although I completely respect your viewpoint and the work you have put into trying to get it clarified.

Our ratio is 6 under 8, but also 3 under school age. We can go over the 3 EYs children in exceptional circumstances. Personally, I don't feel that having a new parent come along wanting a space that you don't have is an exceptional circumstance. It's what happens every day - parent contacts you, you don't have the space, so you say no.
If you could take on anyone that came along, what's the point of having the 'maximum of 3 EYs children' in the EYFS?

Each of us has to be confident that we could justify our interpretation of the EYFS should we be questioned on it. I am more than happy to have 4, even 5 on very rare occasions, when parents' work hours change, as that is how I interpret the rules. But I've never seen anything in writing if from the Dfe that I interpret as saying it's ok to go over ratios when there is no exceptional circumstance, or when it's to take on the child of a new family that has approached you.

[FussyElmo]

I think this is one of those things we'll have to agree to differ on Simona, although I completely respect your viewpoint and the work you have put into trying to get it clarified.

Our ratio is 6 under 8, but also 3 under school age. We can go over the 3 EYs children in exceptional circumstances. Personally, I don't feel that having a new parent come along wanting a space that you don't have is an exceptional circumstance. It's what happens every day - parent contacts you, you don't have the space, so you say no.
If you could take on anyone that came along, what's the point of having the 'maximum of 3 EYs children' in the EYFS?

Each of us has to be confident that we could justify our interpretation of the EYFS should we be questioned on it. I am more than happy to have 4, even 5 on very rare occasions, when parents' work hours change, as that is how I interpret the rules. But I've never seen anything in writing if from the Dfe that I interpret as saying it's ok to go over ratios when there is no exceptional circumstance, or when it's to take on the child of a new family that has approached you.

I must admit I do agree Mouse.

As you Simona, Rick and Sarah both have done a lot of correspondence with ofsted/dfe about our ratios I have yet to see one that says it is ok just to have 4 for no exceptional circumstances however if you have an email that states that we can I'm sure we would all like to see it :D

[Simona]

Fussy and Mouse...thanks for your replies

1. I have on several occasions reported on conversations I have had with Ofsted itself on this and with the DfE in particular...who incidentally write the EYFS but Tribal and Prospect have to 'understand' when judging cms.

Ofsted themselves agreed at OBC that inspectors need better training on this...now is the time to raise it again as ALL inspectors are being trained for the CIF...grab the opportunity....make that call or write that letter or attend OBC itself....for all its faults OBC has actually been a very useful tool

The DfE say EYFS is very unclear on ratios...it needs a desperate review...write to DfE and ask for this to be ASAP as the framework is really so out of date now.

[B]I have copied extracts from emails from DfE and Ofsted[...to no avail and was not believed/B]

2. I reported on the Ofsted workshop I personally arranged in 2012 for cms soon after when the EYFS 2012 came out with one of the Ofsted Officer where this issue was well covered and clarified.
She is still very active and now is a trainer and writer.
The minutes are still available...oh and Rickysmiths attended the workshop as well so she will remember! RS also attended the London OBC where I raised the ratio question to the Ofsted panel.

3. I have emails from the current Ofsted Enforcement Officer on the ratio issue

4. I have copied emails from DfE itself with whom I have had lengthy discussions on this...they are as clear as a bell on this issue
The EYFS changed our ratio to 1:6 and our Ofsted certificates were updated for the purpose

5. I have reported on all the OBC meetings where I have raised this each time and as recently as June.
Look up the feedback I posted in this forum from June O'Sullivan blog and contact the Ofsted Enforcement Officer who attended to double check.

6. I have spoken to many Cms and even Tribal and Prospect inspectors themselves who have confirmed how the ratio works.

7. I have not been believed...in fact the forum admin has told me I am wrong because Ofsted tells them otherwise.
Check the 'Sticky' post in this section for your answer
Rick has posted replies from Ofsted and I have seen them....Ofsted say the same as DfE but in less words and in their usual waffling way.

In there Rick and I agree to to disagree on this.
He says the forum will continue to deal with Ofsted while I agreed to continue primarily with DfE and Ofsted too.

In this forum cms have been 'discouraged' from increasing ratios for fear of downgrading...yes that will happen if the care is not good
There are loads of blogs on this issue...it is quite worrying cms are still so unsure on this.
Some cms increase ratios with confidence because they understand what they can do...those who ask are obviously unsure in which case they need to reflect

The DfE has also asked 4 Children Foundation Years to help by putting the FAQs on their website...it is useless and very poorly worded....I contacted them but they never bothered to reply.

This is really not something that has made any difference to me as I have always been very clear on the issue but I will go the extra mile and go a bit further.

I think the forum should move all the 'ratio' threads in one section and understand how desperate this issue has become with so much uncertainty.
The EYFS should be very clear ...no ifs and no buts....what is the point of a 'Statutory Framework' that is unclear and misleading?

[bunyip]

Hello

I've not been on here for a while! Am hoping someone can offer me some advise!?
I have signed contracts with a family about 6 weeks ago to take on their 12 month old for two mornings a week - 6 hour dive since had a enquiry who want to use me and would be 27 hours a week which I can only do if I don't have the first child.
My question is should I honour my first agreement and hope I can fill the afternoons or do I terminate the contract ( due to start September) in favour for the full time child?
I have not given notice before and am worried that the parents will think I'm unreliable but at the same time my business head says it's the right thing to do but morally it's not!?

Thanks in advance xx

Sorry, we've all rather diverted from the OP.

It's a tricky one and needs careful thought. Previous posters are right: it may damage your reputation and future offers of business if you're perceived to 'drop' children for something better. To be brutally honest, the impact will depend on how much gossip gets about and how many alternatives parents have for childcare. If you're just about the only show in town it will matter less than if the local supply of childcare places outweighs demand.

There is another side to this. If the part-time contract is going to make your business unsustainable, and you've very little prospect of getting enough other work to improve that, then it may be a harsh decision you have to make to save your livelihood. TBH if you're talking about your last available space, then that's unlikely, but I don't know your finances.

There is a 'grey area' that you need to consider. If you keep the part-timer and turn down the full-timer, how will you feel about it? Can you overcome the possible resentment or feelings of a 'lost opportunity'?

Remember a lot of things are out of our hands. You could take on the full-timer, only for mum to change her job or dad be made redundant and then they don't need you. Or another part-timer might be able to slot in nicely around your current mindee. I've always done part-timers only, and found I can fill a lot of spaces with a little creative thinking.

You have to consider all these things and learn to live with the fact that we can never control the circumstances within which we work. Our work depends as much on parent's needs/jobs as on our own abilities.

[Simona]

I think we have all 'amplified and branched off' from the OP but not really diverted....we are still well attached to the OP

Difficult to keep on track all the time unless we wear blinkers and do not see the 'many aspects' any thread poses and branch off and this question is particularly interesting
Other members may also pose additional questions during the discussion.
Fussy and Mouse ...I did reply to your comments ...did anyone check the sticky thread I made reference to? I reread it and there I found the emails posted for all to see.
Fussy...you in particular posed a very interesting question when you referred to this being an 'exceptional circumstance'
There are cms in this forum who I know have increased their ratio and said so...where are they ? can they help ?

Let's recap.....The OP is about S Stars who has a part time family starting in Sept for a baby and for two mornings a week ...this implies the cm has some hours of childcare left to fill according to how many hours SStars works every week and lets assume a full week is 50 hours (8am - 6pm)

Along comes a second family...they want 27 hours per week but SStars is unable to do unless she gives up the first family who has really not started yet....hope I got that right?

For a start neither family is actually 'full time'
should S Stars give notice to the part timer to accommodate the full timer ...who in turn is actually another part timer?
What I can see is a situation where there would be an 'overlap' in care ...S Stars can clarify this maybe.

Many cms say No to ending the 1st contract and I think this is right as the family may not like being given notice when the care has not even started
It would also reflect badly on the CM practice...the restaurant comparison was actually a very good one.

One suggestion I made was to reflect on an increase in ratio....considering neither family 'appears' to be full time.
Horror of horrors...I mentioned ratio!!! ...panic...what about Ofsted...is it allowed?

I posted the statement from Ofsted Gill Jones again...but S Stars is not sure because that would take her to having 4 children under 5...is this allowed?
is this continuity of care or new business?...well I think it is both but doable...this is my personal take after having put many scenarios to both DfE and Ofsted...so I said here I would definitely do it as I am confident of being able to both care and justify the decision

the answer is to approach Ofsted itself and get it clarified or in fact clarify to them what the EYFS says ...consult the families involved...do a RA.

Many many cms have been involved in the ratio saga not just myself and some in the forum...what about asking the parents who make the request to do a bit of work on this? could they contact Ofsted themselves and get this clarified?

Avoiding the ratio conundrum will not help Cms...it has not helped since 2012 and will not help in future when families will be asking for 30 hours of childcare...while cms here were saying ' No No' to an increase I know of cms who had successfully done it and got top grades

One advantage any cm who joins an agency will have is that the agency will decide for them on any ratio issue...so why should ICMs be disadvantaged by this never ending issue?

S Stars...hopefully you will be able to make the decision that suits you and the families involved ....good luck!

Last but not least I contacted 4 Children on Friday...and yes they would like to see DfE and Ofsted sing from the same hymn sheet on the ratio issue...now that is telling!

[bunyip]

I think we have all 'amplified and branched off' from the OP but not really diverted....we are still well attached to the OP

Difficult to keep on track all the time unless we wear blinkers and do not see the 'many aspects' any thread poses and branch off and this question is particularly interesting
Other members may also pose additional questions during the discussion.
Fussy and Mouse ...I did reply to your comments ...did anyone check the sticky thread I made reference to? I reread it and there I found the emails posted for all to see.
Fussy...you in particular posed a very interesting question when you referred to this being an 'exceptional circumstance'
There are cms in this forum who I know have increased their ratio and said so...where are they ? can they help ?

Let's recap.....The OP is about S Stars who has a part time family starting in Sept for a baby and for two mornings a week ...this implies the cm has some hours of childcare left to fill according to how many hours SStars works every week and lets assume a full week is 50 hours (8am - 6pm)

Along comes a second family...they want 27 hours per week but SStars is unable to do unless she gives up the first family who has really not started yet....hope I got that right?

For a start neither family is actually 'full time'
should S Stars give notice to the part timer to accommodate the full timer ...who in turn is actually another part timer?
What I can see is a situation where there would be an 'overlap' in care ...S Stars can clarify this maybe.

Many cms say No to ending the 1st contract and I think this is right as the family may not like being given notice when the care has not even started
It would also reflect badly on the CM practice...the restaurant comparison was actually a very good one.

One suggestion I made was to reflect on an increase in ratio....considering neither family 'appears' to be full time.
Horror of horrors...I mentioned ratio!!! ...panic...what about Ofsted...is it allowed?

I posted the statement from Ofsted Gill Jones again...but S Stars is not sure because that would take her to having 4 children under 5...is this allowed?
is this continuity of care or new business?...well I think it is both but doable...this is my personal take after having put many scenarios to both DfE and Ofsted...so I said here I would definitely do it as I am confident of being able to both care and justify the decision

the answer is to approach Ofsted itself and get it clarified or in fact clarify to them what the EYFS says ...consult the families involved...do a RA.

Many many cms have been involved in the ratio saga not just myself and some in the forum...what about asking the parents who make the request to do a bit of work on this? could they contact Ofsted themselves and get this clarified?

Avoiding the ratio conundrum will not help Cms...it has not helped since 2012 and will not help in future when families will be asking for 30 hours of childcare...while cms here were saying ' No No' to an increase I know of cms who had successfully done it and got top grades

One advantage any cm who joins an agency will have is that the agency will decide for them on any ratio issue...so why should ICMs be disadvantaged by this never ending issue?

S Stars...hopefully you will be able to make the decision that suits you and the families involved ....good luck!

Last but not least I contacted 4 Children on Friday...and yes they would like to see DfE and Ofsted sing from the same hymn sheet on the ratio issue...now that is telling!

I agree it was a useful tangent/diversion. :thumbsup:

The point about ratios/excptions is a good one. But there really is a lack of clarity from the powers-that-be. Your final point is well made: if 4Children are frustrated by mixed messages from DfE-Ofsted, then there's every reason for CMs to be confusticated.

Perhaps we've overlooked the point that the OP might not actually want to go over ratio and have a 4th child to look out for. I can't speak for her, but it does bring a lot of extra considerations into the CMing day.

I worry that the more children we have, the less we can meet individual needs. I was talking with the mum of an autistic DS recently. She was really frustrated and quite angry about the lack of childcare options. She'd been to a lot of CMs who had no problem with taking on an autistic boy per se, and some had specific training and/or experience that would help her son. But CMs were basically refusing her a place because the additional work and attention needed would mean they wouldn't be happy taking on their full ratio of children in total, which would in turn limit their earning potential. One had even asked her to pay double because he'd effectively "be taking up 2 places". Tbh I was very shocked and felt they were riding roughshod over the Equality Act, though part of me could see the CM's side of it if it really does mean extra work and taking on fewer paying customers to meet the boy's needs properly.

And finally, what is a "sticky thread"? Sounds like doing cross-stitch with candy floss. :huh: :p

[Simona]

I agree it was a useful tangent/diversion. :thumbsup:

The point about ratios/excptions is a good one. But there really is a lack of clarity from the powers-that-be. Your final point is well made: if 4Children are frustrated by mixed messages from DfE-Ofsted, then there's every reason for CMs to be confusticated.

Perhaps we've overlooked the point that the OP might not actually want to go over ratio and have a 4th child to look out for. I can't speak for her, but it does bring a lot of extra considerations into the CMing day.

I worry that the more children we have, the less we can meet individual needs. I was talking with the mum of an autistic DS recently. She was really frustrated and quite angry about the lack of childcare options. She'd been to a lot of CMs who had no problem with taking on an autistic boy per se, and some had specific training and/or experience that would help her son. But CMs were basically refusing her a place because the additional work and attention needed would mean they wouldn't be happy taking on their full ratio of children in total, which would in turn limit their earning potential. One had even asked her to pay double because he'd effectively "be taking up 2 places". Tbh I was very shocked and felt they were riding roughshod over the Equality Act, though part of me could see the CM's side of it if it really does mean extra work and taking on fewer paying customers to meet the boy's needs properly.

And finally, what is a "sticky thread"? Sounds like doing cross-stitch with candy floss. :huh: :p

You are spot on...the Cm herself may not wish to consider an increase in ratio but this should not deter others who feel confident they can do so in similar circumstances.
I did suggest reflecting on this.

I am not sure how to put the link to the 'sticky thread' but if you look at the top of the General Childminding Chat you will see this thread: Ratio and the EYFS 2014 started by Sarah herself on 6/6/2013

On the 9 March 2015 I posted 'word for word' the replies from the numerous emails with the DfE...they are in bold and that is what I was referring to in my reply to Mouse and Fussy Elmo

This sticky thread is very useful as it shows how long this saga has been going on and how DfE and Ofsted and others vary on this issue which means the re writing of the EYFS is absolutely imperative on this issue...let's have clear English for all to understand.

I also agree on the individual care being diluted if we take on more children but that forms the basis of cms' ratio...this care must not be compromised but it is very individual to any cm and depends on many factors.