Ratios

[Kitty B]

At the moment I have part time children that I manage to slot well into the working week. My own little boy is 3 1/2 and come Sept starts preschool 2 full days and 1 half day. Is there anyway I can take on a child whilst my boy is in preschool (a term time only child?)

[moggy]

As long as you are not 'responsible' for your own child, they don't count in your numbers- but that means if your own child is ill you can't have them, if the preschool shuts/emergency closure/inset, if the preschool asks you to collect you child because of injury/upset/ill, if you can't get your child to preschool (snow/car breakdown etc)... you need a reliable plan B because you can not have the situation where you have the extra mindee AND your own child. Do you have family/friend who can step in 100% reliably in any of these situations? If not, it might be better to not risk it.

[Simona]

At the moment I have part time children that I manage to slot well into the working week. My own little boy is 3 1/2 and come Sept starts preschool 2 full days and 1 half day. Is there anyway I can take on a child whilst my boy is in preschool (a term time only child?)

As a cm you are allowed to look after 6 children under 8....no more than that

Your case sounds as if you maybe able to alter your ratio for the young ones as include your child in the ratio when required

OFSTED have clarified the ratio issue recently as there have been many confusing messages over the years ...if you are not sure Ofsted have recommended CMs ring them and ask for help....I would do that to be sure of what you can do....or even call Pacey for clarification.
This is Ofsted statement on CMs ratio...keep it safe somewhere.

At the recent Pacey conference Ofsted have clarified the issue of the ratios for CMs
This is the message which also addresses 'continuity of care' and when this could be considered by a cm who wished to apply it .

''Following on from PACEY’s spring conference, where the issue of child ratios for childminders was raised, Ofsted has helped clarify the issue and has shared the following guidance, which has also been given to their inspectors and helpline staff:

The EYFS provides the standard ratios but also recognises circumstances where these ratios can change so that the needs of children and their families are met. Paragraphs 3.30 and 3.42 advise that: ‘exceptionally, and where the quality of care and safety and security of children is maintained, exceptions to the ratios may be made’. For example exceptions can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies or when caring for their own baby. There may also be other adjustments to the ratios, for example where children need continuity of care.

Inspectors must ensure that the quality of care is not compromised by a childminder caring for more children and that they meet the needs of all the children in their care. Exceeding the ratio is not a breach in itself unless the childminder is failing to meet the needs of all children.

The Department for Education (DfE) has published some frequently asked questions (FAQs) which provide further guidance.

If you receive information that is different to the above guidance, Ofsted has advised that you take the name of the person, the date and time of the call and report it to them to investigate further''

[moggy]

As a cm you are allowed to look after 6 children under 8....no more than that

Your case sounds as if you maybe able to alter your ratio for the young ones as include your child in the ratio when required

OFSTED have clarified the ratio issue recently as there have been many confusing messages over the years ...if you are not sure Ofsted have recommended CMs ring them and ask for help....I would do that to be sure of what you can do....or even call Pacey for clarification.
This is Ofsted statement on CMs ratio...keep it safe somewhere.

At the recent Pacey conference Ofsted have clarified the issue of the ratios for CMs
This is the message which also addresses 'continuity of care' and when this could be considered by a cm who wished to apply it .

''Following on from PACEY’s spring conference, where the issue of child ratios for childminders was raised, Ofsted has helped clarify the issue and has shared the following guidance, which has also been given to their inspectors and helpline staff:

The EYFS provides the standard ratios but also recognises circumstances where these ratios can change so that the needs of children and their families are met. Paragraphs 3.30 and 3.42 advise that: ‘exceptionally, and where the quality of care and safety and security of children is maintained, exceptions to the ratios may be made’. For example exceptions can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies or when caring for their own baby. There may also be other adjustments to the ratios, for example where children need continuity of care.

Inspectors must ensure that the quality of care is not compromised by a childminder caring for more children and that they meet the needs of all the children in their care. Exceeding the ratio is not a breach in itself unless the childminder is failing to meet the needs of all children.

The Department for Education (DfE) has published some frequently asked questions (FAQs) which provide further guidance.

If you receive information that is different to the above guidance, Ofsted has advised that you take the name of the person, the date and time of the call and report it to them to investigate further''

I don't think what Kitty was asking is about Continuity of Care? She was asking about whether she can take a new termtimemindee in the place freed up by her own child being in pre-school termtime. There was a confirmation letter from DofE about this and maybe someone from Admin can signal that- it said about this situation where someone else is responsible for your own child but that it has to be reliable and no chance of that care 'falling through'.

[Simona]

I don't think what Kitty was asking is about Continuity of Care? She was asking about whether she can take a new termtimemindee in the place freed up by her own child being in pre-school termtime. There was a confirmation letter from DofE about this and maybe someone from Admin can signal that- it said about this situation where someone else is responsible for your own child but that it has to be reliable and no chance of that care 'falling through'.

Thank you Moggy.
I think we still have a few blurred lines on this issue hence the reason Ofsted have said we can clarify if unsure

I also have letters from DfE on continuity of care/new business or any other scenario
It was also a question asked of Ofsted at London OBC recently...they are aware of the confusion

The issue that can arise from this particular case is if the CM's own child is not in preschool, for whatever reason, and her numbers go up
Best to clarify with Ofsted ...I certainly would.
We all wish the EYFS could be tweaked for more clarification....we live in hope.

[moggy]

I found the document on the Independent CM Facebook page- Files:

file:///home/chronos/u-03ec8013c9f78730f287dd3ddb412db3e33fe45f/Downloads/DfE%2006-2015ratios%20guidance.pdf

[Simona]

I found the document on the Independent CM Facebook page- Files:

file:///home/chronos/u-03ec8013c9f78730f287dd3ddb412db3e33fe45f/Downloads/DfE%2006-2015ratios%20guidance.pdf

Yes...that is the guidance put on the Foundation Years website to address the FAQs and available to all...the cm's own children is in there.
It was shared in this forum too.
I said that a cm's child must be included in cases where the child would be at home...as long as the number does not exceed 8 children and the care of all children is not compromised.

Here is the direct link
Search results for: Childminders ratios FAQs | Foundation Years (http://www.foundationyears.org.uk/?s=Childminders+ratios+FAQs)

[stacieepg]

Ratios has always been a grey area to an extent hasn't it. I always make sure I keep well within them as it's just not worth risking it.

Often wonder though as my own children get picked up from school by their Grandma who drops them off at the end of my working day. This is something she has done for years now.

I still include my own children in my numbers.

I turn down the odd days before/after school enquiries but sometimes wonder if ofsted would accept my own children not being in my numbers if with grandma (more reliable than a preschool lol).

Not something I've overly looked at though and just never go over the ratios currently.

[Simona]

Ratios has always been a grey area to an extent hasn't it. I always make sure I keep well within them as it's just not worth risking it.

Often wonder though as my own children get picked up from school by their Grandma who drops them off at the end of my working day. This is something she has done for years now.

I still include my own children in my numbers.

I turn down the odd days before/after school enquiries but sometimes wonder if ofsted would accept my own children not being in my numbers if with grandma (more reliable than a preschool lol).

Not something I've overly looked at though and just never go over the ratios currently.

Yes ...because the EYFS is poorly written, even the DfE admit that....inspectors were reported as making dubious/individual judgements but overall it is clear what we can do and increasing our numbers should not be a problem....as long as we follow the guidance

Cms have been downgraded not because of higher ratio but because the care of all children was not adequate....Ofsted have said so.
A lot of the talk started on FB and it spread very wide...I know of several cms who had more than 4 children under 5 and judged Good/Outstanding

The ratio for cms is 6 children under 8 which no one can ever exceed....we hope the updated EYFS...when it comes out...will reflect this

The issue was raised at London OBC several months ago and to Ofsted and DfE from Cms from all over the place.
It looks like Ofsted have now clarified the ratio...they are not as clear as the DfE about it and the Foundation Years FAQs is very poor indeed because not all the questions relate to all cms as we are different.

I have a stack of emails from the DfE and Ofsted on this matter.
We will continue to press Ofsted to train their subcontracted inspector better and to address this matter.

With the shortage of places and the 30 hrs childcare looming the last thing the govt needs is Cms hindered by a ratio issue due to poor English in the framework.

In my previous post I said at one point '8 children'...that should have been 6 children

[Kitty B]

Yes it really was just a thought, I find having my own children in my numbers quite restrictive but lots of others must be in this situation (I've also got a 5yr old but 6 in oct) chances r if there was a issue at preschool I have 2 sets of grandparents that would step in. Thanku for your responses x