The Forbidden Word: Naughty.

[greenfaerie]

Do you use the word "naughty" in your setting? After working in nurseries/schools for around 6 years I got used to NEVER using it and eventually when I heard it I would react as if I'd heard someone swear. I decided that I agree with the principle and hate the idea of labeling, so to me now it seems completely natural not to use it. Though, is it really that bad?

At the moment I'm dealing with the fact that one of my minded children is using it and she's taught it to my 2.5 yr old, who in turn is using it back on her! I'm stood in the background saying "we don't' use that word here" but it doesn't make a bit of difference and I'm sure that no one would believe me. :)

What are everyone's opinions on it?

[Kitty B]

I to worked in a nursery for many years and it was definitely a word we never used, and still I would seldom use it. I see it as a negative word!

[Rubybubbles]

No I don't I use it, and never did for y own who are now 13&10!

I actually spoke to one of my parents this week as her dd called my dog naughty(for snoring lol) more to make sure she knew it hadn't come from me! Mum was very surprised when I explained why I felt the need to say not me lol! But understood

[AliceK]

I will call an action naughty but I have never called a child naughty, even my own. So if someone say hits someone else I might say "that's naughty" but not "you're naughty". I do not think it does any harm to use the N word so long as we are not labelling the child.

I have a time-out space, where children can go and calm down or have a think but they all call it the "naughty step" even though I NEVER call it that. They obviously get it from home.

xx

[lollipop kid]

I will call an action naughty but I have never called a child naughty, even my own. So if someone say hits someone else I might say "that's naughty" but not "you're naughty". I do not think it does any harm to use the N word so long as we are not labelling the child.

I have a time-out space, where children can go and calm down or have a think but they all call it the "naughty step" even though I NEVER call it that. They obviously get it from home.

xx

I too have a time out step. We just call it "the step".

I actually used the N word today - pretty much by accident, as I try to NEVER use it, but I quickly corrected myself so that the phrase I used was "that behaviour is naughty. You are going on the step" - having been warned off for similar behaviour a few minutes earlier.

It felt really uncomfortable saying it, but the behaviour really was naughty!!! (Trying to kick another much smaller child who was attempting to climb onto a sofa off of it, as first small person was trying to hold dominion over it.)

:littleangel:

LK

[Simona]

Do you use the word "naughty" in your setting? After working in nurseries/schools for around 6 years I got used to NEVER using it and eventually when I heard it I would react as if I'd heard someone swear. I decided that I agree with the principle and hate the idea of labeling, so to me now it seems completely natural not to use it. Though, is it really that bad?

At the moment I'm dealing with the fact that one of my minded children is using it and she's taught it to my 2.5 yr old, who in turn is using it back on her! I'm stood in the background saying "we don't' use that word here" but it doesn't make a bit of difference and I'm sure that no one would believe me. :)

What are everyone's opinions on it?

Never use it either to children or to refer to behaviour....unacceptable is more appropriate.

There was a TV programme recently called 'Born Naughty'....all those children were found to have a reason for their behaviour...I agree with those who hate lables

[Dragonfly]

Sorry, but the word naughty doesn't bother me.

[mumofone]

I have to say that I think it's PC gone mad when you can't refer to a child's BEHAVIOUR as naughty if it really is. It's another matter however if you label a child a "naughty child" as this may end up a self fulfilling prophecy and do damage long term.

[Simona]

I have to say that I think it's PC gone mad when you can't refer to a child's BEHAVIOUR as naughty if it really is. It's another matter however if you label a child a "naughty child" as this may end up a self fulfilling prophecy and do damage long term.

I agree with you in part on what you say...but what does 'naughty' actually mean?
Can behaviour be naughty or a bit more than that?...such as: unacceptable, dangerous, unkind, disruptive, self centred and so on...why stick the wrong label when you can use the appropriate word which the children can reflect on?

Say a child is going through a tantrum and throws a toy the other side of the room...telling that child is naughty does not address the behaviour...you have just labelled the child and nothing else but not told him/her why you don't accept the actions....that throwing toys can be dangerous etc etc etc.

I know we all differ in opinions but I would not like to be labelled naughty myself as I would dislike being referred to as 'EAL' when in fact I am bilingual.

We seem to have labels for every sort of situation for children...sorry I really dislike labels .

[bunyip]

I agree with you in part on what you say...but what does 'naughty' actually mean?
.

Good question.

Boring etymological fact: originally the word meant "without value" - closely related and possibly derived from the old Saxon word "niding" (pro. "nithing"), meaning "without honour."

Ok, not something I'd want to "label" a child. But words come and go, and meanings change over time. Typically, words like "professional", "friend", "rude", etc. bear very little relation to what they meant a generation ago or less.

I personally think the trendy, "right-on" fad for avoiding what is rapidly becoming the new 'N-word' says a lot more about the adult than the child. Viz, a desire to appear pc and oh-so-up-to-date with the new thinking. Looking on the bright side, we'll probably only have to tolerate this particular piece of 'clever' nonsense until the next fashion comes along to replace it (like time in, time out, time shake it all about and do the hokey-flippin'-cokey while you're at it....... :p)

It is a trend which seems to have passed children by and can only make the adult/parent/EY practitioner look a little bit stupid. Why? Because it ignores the basics of communication: that what we say may not be what the child hears and understands.

Preschool children simply do not have the linguistic skills to perceive the subtle difference between a description of the person and a description of their behaviour. So all this 'clever' verbal circumlocution is completely lost on the child. Teachers do not tell children they are "bad" or "naughty". But they still get complaints from trendy mummies whose children come home and tell them "my teacher says I'm bad" when teacher actually as describing their behaviour and not a character flaw. My mindees come home and tell me "so-and-so was told off for being naughty today", not "so-and-so was told her behaviour was unacceptable for the following reasons............" It's what they understand.

EY practitioners, educational "experts" and all the rest of the band are always happy to avoid "labelling". But they still use labels just as much, only in the opposite way. Everything is "amazing" and everyone is so "good" in this overpoweringly "positive" world. It's like a bunch of over-qualified Mr Tumbles constantly screaming "we're all friends!" in the lo's ears and overpraising them til the cows come home. Is this any better?

Well, sing it to Officer Krupke and tell it to the judge. At least they won't suffer the ignominy of their future residence being called "the naughty prison".

I suspect we're going to bring up a generation to believe they're amazing and good and can never do wrong. Presumably, history classes will push the view that Hitler was just badly misunderstood; Pol Pot was really a nice man who just a happened to do a few (million) "bad things"; the Krays would've turned out fine if only their mum had ben a bit more 'positive' towards them (.................oh hang on, Mrs Kray thought the world of the twins: maybe that was the problem........?)

[Simona]

For me personally this has nothing at all to do with 'political correctness' or whether naughty is fashionable or otherwise....or whatever the next trendy word will be.

What about those parents who do not wish any labels imposed on their child...I have had lengthy discussions with them and respect their wishes while reassuring them labels are not stuck on their children...try reassuring a mother whose child is referred to as 'special needs'
By those who cannot see past the disability.

Last but not least...what about the children themselves...do they like those labels or constantly being referred to as ....for example....girly, princess, typical boy, EAL, disadvantaged, mummy's boy, daddy's girl, biter, screamer ,fussy eater, difficult, bright, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Special Needs' ...I could go on.

I recall very well the distress caused to a child who was constantly called a 'tomboy' until one day she told the other children to stop calling her so.....lesson learnt by all children and adults!
Words indeed come and go but the labels often stick.

[HTSMumma]

Good question.

Boring etymological fact: originally the word meant "without value" - closely related and possibly derived from the old Saxon word "niding" (pro. "nithing"), meaning "without honour."

Ok, not something I'd want to "label" a child. But words come and go, and meanings change over time. Typically, words like "professional", "friend", "rude", etc. bear very little relation to what they meant a generation ago or less.

I personally think the trendy, "right-on" fad for avoiding what is rapidly becoming the new 'N-word' says a lot more about the adult than the child. Viz, a desire to appear pc and oh-so-up-to-date with the new thinking. Looking on the bright side, we'll probably only have to tolerate this particular piece of 'clever' nonsense until the next fashion comes along to replace it (like time in, time out, time shake it all about and do the hokey-flippin'-cokey while you're at it....... :p)

It is a trend which seems to have passed children by and can only make the adult/parent/EY practitioner look a little bit stupid. Why? Because it ignores the basics of communication: that what we say may not be what the child hears and understands.

Preschool children simply do not have the linguistic skills to perceive the subtle difference between a description of the person and a description of their behaviour. So all this 'clever' verbal circumlocution is completely lost on the child. Teachers do not tell children they are "bad" or "naughty". But they still get complaints from trendy mummies whose children come home and tell them "my teacher says I'm bad" when teacher actually as describing their behaviour and not a character flaw. My mindees come home and tell me "so-and-so was told off for being naughty today", not "so-and-so was told her behaviour was unacceptable for the following reasons............" It's what they understand.

EY practitioners, educational "experts" and all the rest of the band are always happy to avoid "labelling". But they still use labels just as much, only in the opposite way. Everything is "amazing" and everyone is so "good" in this overpoweringly "positive" world. It's like a bunch of over-qualified Mr Tumbles constantly screaming "we're all friends!" in the lo's ears and overpraising them til the cows come home. Is this any better?

Well, sing it to Officer Krupke and tell it to the judge. At least they won't suffer the ignominy of their future residence being called "the naughty prison".

I suspect we're going to bring up a generation to believe they're amazing and good and can never do wrong. Presumably, history classes will push the view that Hitler was just badly misunderstood; Pol Pot was really a nice man who just a happened to do a few (million) "bad things"; the Krays would've turned out fine if only their mum had ben a bit more 'positive' towards them (.................oh hang on, Mrs Kray thought the world of the twins: maybe that was the problem........?)

If I could like a post several times over, I would!
Use naughty to describe behaviour in my setting and for the above reasons so eloquently explained by Bunyip.
I would go further to explain my reasons why but I have a playgroup run to do.

I replied to this thread for a reason though, and that is people referring to the word naughty as 'the N-word'. I find this rude and "unacceptable". The 'N-word' is used to describe a horrendously racist word and giving the term a new meaning minimises its original use and infers that the actual n-word is on a par with naughty. It's not. It's not even on the same planet of unacceptable use. Please stop referring to naughty as the n-word.

[shortstuff]

For me personally this has nothing at all to do with 'political correctness' or whether naughty is fashionable or otherwise....or whatever the next trendy word will be.

What about those parents who do not wish any labels imposed on their child...I have had lengthy discussions with them and respect their wishes while reassuring them labels are not stuck on their children...try reassuring a mother whose child is referred to as 'special needs'
By those who cannot see past the disability.

Last but not least...what about the children themselves...do they like those labels or constantly being referred to as ....for example....girly, princess, typical boy, EAL, disadvantaged, mummy's boy, daddy's girl, biter, screamer ,fussy eater, difficult, bright, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Special Needs' ...I could go on.

I recall very well the distress caused to a child who was constantly called a 'tomboy' until one day she told the other children to stop calling her so.....lesson learnt by all children and adults!
Words indeed come and go but the labels often stick.

That is quite an impressive list Simona.

How about these? unacceptable, dangerous, unkind, disruptive, self centred and so on..

Still labels from a person who dislikes labels.

Sorry to be picky but I dont understand your logic on this subject. You yourself dislike labels but have added a good list yourself. Anyone can assume that a descriptive word is a label. Whether that was the originators intention or otherwise.

It is all subjective and open to interpretation IMO :thumbsup:

[bunyip]

That is quite an impressive list Simona.

How about these? unacceptable, dangerous, unkind, disruptive, self centred and so on..

Still labels from a person who dislikes labels.

Sorry to be picky but I dont understand your logic on this subject. You yourself dislike labels but have added a good list yourself. Anyone can assume that a descriptive word is a label. Whether that was the originators intention or otherwise.

It is all subjective and open to interpretation IMO :thumbsup:

I agree.

I've not be a CM long, but it didn't take long to figure out that a word is only a "label" if you don't like somebody else using it.

.............and "good practice" means "in agreement with me."

[bunyip]

For me personally this has nothing at all to do with 'political correctness' or whether naughty is fashionable or otherwise....or whatever the next trendy word will be.

What about those parents who do not wish any labels imposed on their child...I have had lengthy discussions with them and respect their wishes while reassuring them labels are not stuck on their children...try reassuring a mother whose child is referred to as 'special needs'
By those who cannot see past the disability.

Last but not least...what about the children themselves...do they like those labels or constantly being referred to as ....for example....girly, princess, typical boy, EAL, disadvantaged, mummy's boy, daddy's girl, biter, screamer ,fussy eater, difficult, bright, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Special Needs' ...I could go on.

I recall very well the distress caused to a child who was constantly called a 'tomboy' until one day she told the other children to stop calling her so.....lesson learnt by all children and adults!
Words indeed come and go but the labels often stick.

What about the parents who use the word "naughty" at home? Are we to ride roughshod over their chosen 'style of parenting'? Are we to confuse the child by letting them hear one thing at home and the opposite at the CM's? We're never going to replicate the home situation, but does it help to be inconsistent for the sake of our personal dogma?

Your list includes bona fide clinical terms, and I've known parents shed tears of relief when they actually got to hear such a diagnosis after years of struggling.

Typically, "special needs" was a fashionable term to replace something else that went before and got dropped because all the smarty-pants decided it was an inappropriate "label". So now we have "Special Educational Needs" (means exactly the same thing, but comes with an easy-to-dispense acronym, which always helps in the weird world of EY). Well, at least we have it until the new-improved replacement term comes along. :panic:

[Simona]

The OP asked what was our opinion on using the word naughty.
I have given my personal opinion on why I do not use it...whether the list is impressive or otherwise...or my faulty logic... it is my choice not to use it....yes I consider it a label.

Others can use it if they wish and if they believe it addresses what is usually a behavioural matter.

And no Bunyip...it is not a label because others use it...it is what I believe in
If parents wish to use the word....I would not stop them...their choice.

and I never referred or alluded to the racist word....nor did I refer to good practice.

British Values= respect for others opinions too....I differ from others involved in this discussion but accept your reasoning behind it ...plenty of people share my view.

To tell a child his action is dangerous is factual if he throws toys ...and it has consequences...does naughty have a consequence?

[Mouse]

There are several words I just cannot bring myself to use in ever day life, not just in childminding.

One of them is "naughty". I don't really know why, but it doesn't sit comfortably with me. I might think it my head, but I never say it to a child. I say they're being unkind or not very nice or that they're doing something that I don't like, but I'll never say they are naughty or what they're doing is naughty. I guess it's probably come from some training I've been on at some point and it's always stuck with me :rolleyes:

Another word I can't us is "posh". My junior school teacher always told us it was an awful word and we were never to us it...and I don't :laughing:

[mumofone]

I fear the avoidance of any kind of criticism at all breeds kids like the 6 year old I look after. Completely oblivious to others feelings she bulldozes her way through all situations probably because her parents have never told her she is being rude or naughty. She's constantly told she's wonderful and doesn't hear anything else.

[mumofone]

Have you heard the story in the news today about the kid who got his mouth washed out with soap....his mum apparently said "all kids act like this". I'm sorry but I would have said he had been incredibly naughty (and other choice words!).

[Blueeyedminder]

I don't see any harm with the word 'naughty'. IMO it's ridiculous the who-haa the word causes.

[bunyip]

The OP asked what was our opinion on using the word naughty.
I have given my personal opinion on why I do not use it...whether the list is impressive or otherwise...or my faulty logic... it is my choice not to use it....yes I consider it a label.

Others can use it if they wish and if they believe it addresses what is usually a behavioural matter.

And no Bunyip...it is not a label because others use it...it is what I believe in
If parents wish to use the word....I would not stop them...their choice.

and I never referred or alluded to the racist word....nor did I refer to good practice.

British Values= respect for others opinions too....I differ from others involved in this discussion but accept your reasoning behind it ...plenty of people share my view.

To tell a child his action is dangerous is factual if he throws toys ...and it has consequences...does naughty have a consequence?

I suspect I've just been told off for being naughty. :blush:

Tbf, I don't think any member here has suggested anybody used any racist word (but isn't "racist" some kind of label? :huh: ) I only suggested that "naughty" is fast becoming a word that's regarded with a similar degree of horror. I've heard of mums being issued with 'warnings' for using the word at children s centres.

I've never been keen on British values either.

My personal opinion.....................of course.

[Simona]

Bunyip...I'll do a Fleetstreetfox on you...read the comments and you will see clearly why the racist word has been mentioned in one comment...when...actually ...no one mentioned it in the first place!!...deary me!

This thread reminds me when cms used to debate 'smacking' before it was banned...some were very keen, others would rather cut their hands than hit a child....history repeats itself!

I don't think we caused a 'who-haa' we just disagreed but in this forum sometimes that is not allowed ...as we soon get the 'personal' involved!!...so I will continue to not say naughty while others will.

Mouse...yes many do more or less what you do....think of an alternative to tell the children rather than use the naughty word...a good way to enlarge their vocabulary, why restrict it to naughty?
Glad you didn't get the same response for saying so.
POSH...love to hear it used in the appropriate circumstances...such an English word! The Queen is POSH!! ...although she does not travel on Britannia much these days ....Port Out Starboard Home!

Mumofone.....I think you have spoken about this particular child before.
I don't know the child so would not judge but hazard a guess she needs a good dose of 'discipline' and set boundaries

I would bet you a few pounds if you were to share her behaviour with her teacher you would be told the child is not allowed to 'bulldoze' in her class
Maybe the child needs not to be 'criticised' but to be told the truth about her behaviour and gain some control over it?

If her parents constantly tell her she is 'wonderful' the child is suffering from an acute case of 'mixed messages'...no reason why she should be allowed to behave in such manner in your home...your setting = your rules and she needs to comply.
She is misbehaving and then rewarded with lavish praise by her parents? and she has 3 different people expecting different behaviour from her.

I used to ask my older children why they behaved well at school...the answer was always the same: the teacher is strict...well not really, they did not understand that the school had strict boundaries/discipline even at 8 years of age.

Have a good weekend everyone.

[HTSMumma]

[QUOTE="Simona;1403681"]Bunyip...I'll do a Fleetstreetfox on you...read the comments and you will see clearly why the racist word has been mentioned in one comment...when...actually ...no one mentioned it in the first place!!...deary me! /QUOTE]

This is what I said:

"I replied to this thread for a reason though, and that is people referring to the word naughty as 'the N-word'. I find this rude and "unacceptable". The 'N-word' is used to describe a horrendously racist word and giving the term a new meaning minimises its original use and infers that the actual n-word is on a par with naughty. It's not. It's not even on the same planet of unacceptable use. Please stop referring to naughty as the n-word."

My comment wasn't directed at you personally, so I'm not sure what you are taking it so.
Neither did I infer that anyone used a racist word.
If you re-read my comment (as you've asked the other poster to do) you will see that my issue was that people were referring to the word naughty as "the N-word". This term is widely used to describe a racist word and using it for another meaning, "naughty", is suggesting that naughty and the actual n-word are on a par. They are most definitely not.
A couple of people have used the term "the n-word" to describe the word naughty in this thread.

[bunyip]

[QUOTE="Simona;1403681"]Bunyip...I'll do a Fleetstreetfox on you...read the comments and you will see clearly why the racist word has been mentioned in one comment...when...actually ...no one mentioned it in the first place!!...deary me! /QUOTE]

This is what I said:

"I replied to this thread for a reason though, and that is people referring to the word naughty as 'the N-word'. I find this rude and "unacceptable". The 'N-word' is used to describe a horrendously racist word and giving the term a new meaning minimises its original use and infers that the actual n-word is on a par with naughty. It's not. It's not even on the same planet of unacceptable use. Please stop referring to naughty as the n-word."

My comment wasn't directed at you personally, so I'm not sure what you are taking it so.
Neither did I infer that anyone used a racist word.
If you re-read my comment (as you've asked the other poster to do) you will see that my issue was that people were referring to the word naughty as "the N-word". This term is widely used to describe a racist word and using it for another meaning, "naughty", is suggesting that naughty and the actual n-word are on a par. They are most definitely not.
A couple of people have used the term "the n-word" to describe the word naughty in this thread.

HTSMumma's comments make perfect sense.

I used the term to signify how the word use of the "naughty" is rapidly coming to be seen as equally unacceptable with racism: which it most definitely is not. The words are not on a par, but some people seem to be moving the debate in that direction, which is very unfortunate. I do hope that point was understood and not taken out of context. It seems that even reference to certain language can provoke knee-jerk reactions all too easy.

The fact that saying "naughty" is now been compared with smacking does however imply that sort of 'mission creep' thinking is already well advanced.

[bunyip]

Moving the debate on, what should we say if "naughty" is not allowed? :huh:

I've already highlighted [my post#10] how children - even school children - are generally unable to 'get' what we may be trying to say, however well-intentioned.

So if the CM says, "that wasn't a nice thing to do" there is every likelihood of the child interpreting this as "you're not very nice". A child's understanding is just not that finely tuned - which is probably why The Moral Maze is broadcast after their bedtime. They lack the sophistication to separate "action" from "self". So if you describe their action, you are almost certainly (albeit inadvertently) doing exactly what Simoana likes to refer to as "labelling" them.

....and other children present just know that so-and-so child "got told off" - hence they are 'naughty', 'bad', whatever you want to call it QED.

Conversely, the flip-side of this is why they smile when you like their painting: they identify 'action' with 'self' - so liking their picture means you like them.

Let's assume for a moment that "naughty" should not be used. Then what we say could be far worse. Tell a child their "behaviour is unacceptable" and they probably interpret that as if they are not acceptable. Is that not a lot more potentially 'damaging' than being called "naughty"?

I also fear we're going to be setting out on a long journey of 'word replacement'. This is what happens when we replace one taboo word with another, whichthen takes on the same meaning and connotations as the first, and so another new replacement word has to be found..............and so on and so on, ad infinitum.

Hang around a playground across a few years and you'll hear this evidenced by those most brutal and unsentimental proponents of language: children themselves. So whereas in my day, I was called a "puff" or "queer" (simply because I disliked soccer), a child of similar tastes will now be called "gay" (which was supposed to be the acceptable replacement word for those previously mentioned. Likewise, in my day, you might get name-called as "mental" or a "nutter", now the playground insult will be "LD" or "special needs kid".

We are constantly being told that children, especially EY children, need consistency. So what do we do with those who are told "naughty" at home? :huh: Do we offer them consistency? Do we say, "no - bad parents - we don't like that word here"? Or do we refuse care and send them running into the arms of an unregistered carer who will give the parents what they want - and coincidentally the very consistency the child needs? :confused:

Genuine questions................I'd be genuinely interested to hear everyone's views.

[FloraDora]

Moving the debate on, what should we say if "naughty" is not allowed? :huh:

I've already highlighted [my post#10] how children - even school children - are generally unable to 'get' what we may be trying to say, however well-intentioned.

So if the CM says, "that wasn't a nice thing to do" there is every likelihood of the child interpreting this as "you're not very nice". A child's understanding is just not that finely tuned - which is probably why The Moral Maze is broadcast after their bedtime. They lack the sophistication to separate "action" from "self". So if you describe their action, you are almost certainly (albeit inadvertently) doing exactly what Simoana likes to refer to as "labelling" them.

....and other children present just know that so-and-so child "got told off" - hence they are 'naughty', 'bad', whatever you want to call it QED.

Conversely, the flip-side of this is why they smile when you like their painting: they identify 'action' with 'self' - so liking their picture means you like them.

Let's assume for a moment that "naughty" should not be used. Then what we say could be far worse. Tell a child their "behaviour is unacceptable" and they probably interpret that as if they are not acceptable. Is that not a lot more potentially 'damaging' than being called "naughty"?

I also fear we're going to be setting out on a long journey of 'word replacement'. This is what happens when we replace one taboo word with another, whichthen takes on the same meaning and connotations as the first, and so another new replacement word has to be found..............and so on and so on, ad infinitum.

Hang around a playground across a few years and you'll hear this evidenced by those most brutal and unsentimental proponents of language: children themselves. So whereas in my day, I was called a "puff" or "queer" (simply because I disliked soccer), a child of similar tastes will now be called "gay" (which was supposed to be the acceptable replacement word for those previously mentioned. Likewise, in my day, you might get name-called as "mental" or a "nutter", now the playground insult will be "LD" or "special needs kid".

We are constantly being told that children, especially EY children, need consistency. So what do we do with those who are told "naughty" at home? :huh: Do we offer them consistency? Do we say, "no - bad parents - we don't like that word here"? Or do we refuse care and send them running into the arms of an unregistered carer who will give the parents what they want - and coincidentally the very consistency the child needs? :confused:

Genuine questions................I'd be genuinely interested to hear everyone's views.

Need to put some thought into a real reply but too late to think ! Years ago when the 'naughty word being banned by some folk 'agenda was sneaking in, I used the word obstreperous instead - lots of stories to tell about this!

[Simona]

[QUOTE="Simona;1403681"]Bunyip...I'll do a Fleetstreetfox on you...read the comments and you will see clearly why the racist word has been mentioned in one comment...when...actually ...no one mentioned it in the first place!!...deary me! /QUOTE]

This is what I said:

"I replied to this thread for a reason though, and that is people referring to the word naughty as 'the N-word'. I find this rude and "unacceptable". The 'N-word' is used to describe a horrendously racist word and giving the term a new meaning minimises its original use and infers that the actual n-word is on a par with naughty. It's not. It's not even on the same planet of unacceptable use. Please stop referring to naughty as the n-word."

My comment wasn't directed at you personally, so I'm not sure what you are taking it so.
Neither did I infer that anyone used a racist word.
If you re-read my comment (as you've asked the other poster to do) you will see that my issue was that people were referring to the word naughty as "the N-word". This term is widely used to describe a racist word and using it for another meaning, "naughty", is suggesting that naughty and the actual n-word are on a par. They are most definitely not.
A couple of people have used the term "the n-word" to describe the word naughty in this thread.

YES...and those who did mention the 'N-Word' were the ones I was referring to...although it was meant to say Naughty...nothing at all to do with the racist one....will they come back and comment?
Read my comments too....and I am not upset by the remarks....just defending my point of view!

Sad that it seems we have lost the thread and meaning of this discussion....and missed the whole point.

Bunyip...there is no fighting you when it comes to your criticism...but I will not let you put me down as you seem to do with almost every reply

NO ONE HAS SAID NAUGHTY NEEDS TO BE BANNED
Read my comments...I said it is our choice whether we use it or NOT...but I feel it is a label....I can't believe that others have misunderstood this too?

why did you not comment on Mouse's comments who does not feel like using the word either?
What one replaces naughty with is up to us...how long we have to sit a child down to discuss behaviour is also our choice
I totally disagree with you that children are unable to grasp what we say to them! we constantly undervalue their intellect.
If you want to deal with parents using different parenting methods of discipline then ask them...discuss 'mixed messages' ...point them to the National Strategies, do a research on parenting styles...I did for my degree and ...oh boy...did it make a difference? not just to the parents but children too and to behaviour.

The whole point IS that we need to tell children it is their behaviour we find unacceptable not them!!..I have heard that ad infinitum in training
Is it a word replacement game?...or teaching children more words to enlarge their lexicon and understanding
look up Thesaurus...there are many meanings to naughty.

Flora Dora...the word naughty is NOT banned...but I would find it very difficult to see it printed in any behaviour management book, hear it endorsed at any behaviour training or...even used in front of an inspector!
Just imagine teachers and providers calling a child naughty during an inspection ...

it is in my opinion that it is a label that does not explain to any child why WE FIND their behaviour unacceptable, not nice, not kind not appropriate and so on...it is my choice to use what I feel are more effective methods of guiding children to understand their behaviour..
Whatever my opinion it does not affect what others do.

We seem to be operating the Prevent Duty very well in this discussion!

[bunyip]

Bunyip...there is no fighting you when it comes to your criticism...but I will not let you put me down as you seem to do with almost every reply


I will also say: ....just defending my point of view!


NO ONE HAS SAID NAUGHTY NEEDS TO BE BANNED


My misunderstanding, for which I apologise unreservedly, I thought this was what you were suggesting.

But in defence of those members who have understood similarly, do please read the title of this thread: the entire premise of the OP's opening for this discussion is that "naughty" is a "forbidden word". So my understanding was this is what we were invited to discuss. I'm happy to be corrected if this is not what the title means, but if a child-carer can misinterpret a 4-word title, what chance does a 3yo have of understanding a thorough explanation of thier actions, morals and consequences? :huh:


why did you not comment on Mouse's comments who does not feel like using the word either?

I'd respectfully suggest this is because Mouse doesn't go off on one, and stated a reasonable and consistent argument (from a much shorter horse) and does not think herself immune to her own judgments.


The whole point IS that we need to tell children it is their behaviour we find unacceptable not them!!..I have heard that ad infinitum in training...........................

....................I totally disagree with you that children are unable to grasp what we say to them! we constantly undervalue their intellect.

The whole point IS that you can say whatever the trainers think is smart and right until the next time they change their tiny minds, but the important thing is: do children hear what we're saying and how do they interpret it? I'm reminded of a member stating quite categorically how her degree course had taught her how EY children will frequently only hear and successfully process as few as two words from every sentence spoken to them.

Hence, our explanation "... to any child why WE FIND their behaviour unacceptable, not nice, not kind not appropriate and so on..." may well be heard and understood by that child as something along the lines of "...blah blah blah you blah blah blah blah blah not nice blah blah blah". Am I the only one who is concerned about the potential effect of that on a child?

I'm utterly astonished that one can have all the training, qualifications, and certificates in the world, and still have trainers and practitioners believing that a child's brain functions in exactly the same way as an adult's, with the same understanding and functionality. No matter what the weird world of childcare would like to believe, the scientific world knows that the entire upper frontal lobe, which deals with thinking ahead and controlling behaviour, is pretty much 'off-line' from any practical point of view in a young child. This takes the discussion way beyond the words we use or do not use: it makes us reconsider whether it is even worth addressing many 'unwanted behaviours' in many children until they reach the appropriate age /stage of development.


but I feel it is a label....I can't believe that others have misunderstood this too?

Am I the only one who struggles to understand your view on labels? The professed view of disliking labels does not sit well with the practice. I refer to the "you are................" comments that you regularly dispense, such as: sarcastic, arrogant, negative, unprofessional, condescending, ignorant, disrespectful, rude, offensive, inconsistent, critical, hypocritical.......

Sticks and stones............... ;)


Whatever my opinion it does not affect what others do.

Small mercies, eh? It would be interesting to hear some other views on the genuine points I raised. It would be nice to hear some practical alternatives; views on alternatives; anything more than an assertion of superiority, really.

[Edited for my atroshuss spellign................. and a bit I forgot the first time.]

[Simona]

I will also say: ....just defending my point of view!



My misunderstanding, for which I apologise unreservedly, I thought this was what you were suggesting.

But in defence of those members who have understood similarly, do please read the title of this thread: the entire premise of the OP's opening for this discussion is that "naughty" is a "forbidden word". So my understanding was this is what we were invited to discuss. I'm happy to be corrected if this is not what the title means, but if a child-carer can misinterpret a 4-word title, what chance does a 3yo have of understanding a thorough explanation of thier actions, morals and consequences? :huh:



I'd respectfully suggest this is because Mouse doesn't go off on one, and stated a reasonable and consistent argument (from a much shorter horse) and does not think herself immune to her own judgments.



The whole point IS that you can say whatever the trainers think is smart and right until the next time they change their tiny minds, but the important thing is: do children hear what we're saying and how do they interpret it? I'm reminded of a member stating quite categorically how her degree course had taught her how EY children will frequently only hear and successfully process as few as two words from every sentence spoken to them.

Hence, our explanation "... to any child why WE FIND their behaviour unacceptable, not nice, not kind not appropriate and so on..." may well be heard and understood by that child as something along the lines of "...blah blah blah you blah blah blah blah blah not nice blah blah blah". Am I the only one who is concerned about the potential effect of that on a child?

I'm utterly astonished that one can have all the training, qualifications, and certificates in the world, and still have trainers and practitioners believing that a child's brain functions in exactly the same way as an adult's, with the same understanding and functionality. No matter what the weird world of childcare would like to believe, the scientific world knows that the entire upper frontal lobe, which deals with thinking ahead and controlling behaviour, is pretty much 'off-line' from any practical point of view in a young child. This takes the discussion way beyond the words we use or do not use: it makes us reconsider whether it is even worth addressing many 'unwanted behaviours' in many children until they reach the appropriate age /stage of development.



Am I the only one who struggles to understand your view on labels? The professed view of disliking labels does not sit well with the practice. I refer to the "you are................" comments that you regularly dispense, such as: sarcastic, arrogant, negative, unprofessional, condescending, ignorant, disrespectful, rude, offensive, inconsistent, critical, hypocritical.......

Sticks and stones............... ;)


Small mercies, eh? It would be interesting to hear some other views on the genuine points I raised. It would be nice to hear some practical alternatives; views on alternatives; anything more than an assertion of superiority, really.

[Edited for my atroshuss spellign................. and a bit I forgot the first time.]

Yes....your point of view is that naughty can be used...it is not forbidden
Your points are genuine but mine are not...and nothing to do with trainers...it is my practice.

I was unaware that we needed to keep our replies short and 'not go off on one'

You not only wish to make a point, which I respect as your opinion, but you choose to humiliate with your choice of words.
Have a good day.

[bunyip]

Sad that my attempt to move the discussion on has been crushed before it had a chance to begin. It's an important subject and could've been interesting.

Small point, but is there any need for another of your tirades and drawing personal attention to those who have the temerity to disagree with you? (whilst simultaneously accusing anyone but yourself of "personalising" the argument?) I mean, have a go at me by all means - I'm big enough and ugly enough to take it, and quite used to facing the broken end of the odd bottle - but having a pop at FloraDora before she's even had chance to think of the reply she clearly wishes to compose is a bit cheap by anyone's standards. :mad:

Does the only way to have a "sensible discussion" involve total agreement with you? Or else face being flattened by the weight of the omniscience which flows naturally from your equally weighty training portfolio?

I agree with the majority of what you post on most threads I read, something you singularly fail to acknowledge, but woe betide when I disagree. :(

I suspect a lot of members are put off by this.

[Simona]

Sad that my attempt to move the discussion on has been crushed before it had a chance to begin. It's an important subject and could've been interesting.

Small point, but is there any need for another of your tirades and drawing personal attention to those who have the temerity to disagree with you? (whilst simultaneously accusing anyone but yourself of "personalising" the argument?) I mean, have a go at me by all means - I'm big enough and ugly enough to take it, and quite used to facing the broken end of the odd bottle - but having a pop at FloraDora before she's even had chance to think of the reply she clearly wishes to compose is a bit cheap by anyone's standards. :mad:

Does the only way to have a "sensible discussion" involve total agreement with you? Or else face being flattened by the weight of the omniscience which flows naturally from your equally weighty training portfolio?

I agree with the majority of what you post on most threads I read, something you singularly fail to acknowledge, but woe betide when I disagree. :(

I suspect a lot of members are put off by this.

Oh my goodness...so much attention given to my opinion Bunyip....I am honoured
I was enjoying Wimbledon!!"

So now I am drawing attention to myself and launching a tirade...no, I am defending my point of view

If you look at several thread you will find that you mostly disagree with my opinion ...in fact I would say you are rather 'prejudiced'...you do not use the same terminology or offensive tone with any of the other members

You have disagreed with me...I don't mind ...we all have a view...but so far apart from misinterpreting what I am saying you have offered no alternative or clear explanation just offensive remarks.
I disagree with many of your opinion ...I read them and move on.
I disagree with my LA and their ways but I do not use foul language against them
You have offered a false apology then continued with your offensive language and insinuations....are all members fed up with this?
many members are really fed up with the antagonism and aggression...PM are really revealing..


As said not using the word naughty is 'my choice'...it works for me, my setting and children...no one has actually said why using naughty works for them.
You have gone on about 'professionals' and experts and degrees and the same things you really do not like such as qualifications and LAs and Ofsted and DfE and so on....no one has ever offended you for that or used sarcastic language

ok...lets all stop reading those books on behaviour, or attend training and take tips from the 'experts'


The debate is open as long as someone comes along with a good reason to say using the word naughty works for them and why am I wrong in considering it a label

I would assume this thread will end up in the 'delete' section too

[bunyip]

Moving on......................................

(ahem.)

[KatieFS]

Well I use the word on occasions, perhaps in this context 'that is naughty behaviour', as said previously most of my mindees say this. They also say 'bad girl/boy' so I find myself taking through these phrases and adding feelings in to balance the negative and (hopefully) add meaning and emotion for the child; eg sad, unkind etc.

Of course we have to be careful of labelling; I try to help the lo understand what this means and how it feels for others when bad things happen

[shortstuff]

I also use the word naughty. I don't use it as a label of any individual but as a label of actions.

I don't see the harm. It is a word which has been found in the dictionary for decades and can be looked up when older. It's much nicer than the choice words I've heard shouted at children by parents in my previous life. Also much better than some I've been on the receiving end of. Bear in mind the last time my mother spent any time alone with DS she smacked him. Then took delight in telling me no matter what my view she would do so again.

[AliceK]

I also use the word naughty. I don't use it as a label of any individual but as a label of actions.

I don't see the harm. It is a word which has been found in the dictionary for decades and can be looked up when older. It's much nicer than the choice words I've heard shouted at children by parents in my previous life. Also much better than some I've been on the receiving end of. Bear in mind the last time my mother spent any time alone with DS she smacked him. Then took delight in telling me no matter what my view she would do so again.

:panic: wow, that's so out of order. I am speechless.
I guess your DS hasn't been left alone with her again.

xx

[Mummits]

I too have been told that the word "naughty" should never be heard in a childcare setting or from a professional practitioner.

I often hear the term "best practice" used on occasions when those passing judgement lack more concrete evidence to back up whatever opinion they are asserting. That is not an observation aimed at anyone on this forum - I just have a little smile every time I hear it bandied about at a live event or course. The other old favorite that gets used is "unprofessional", which I take it means "your view/practice is different to mine".

But I digress. I do not use the word naughty, partly because it is frowned upon in "professional circles", but also because I fear it has become rather devalued as a valid criticism of behavior. I hear parents use the word all the time in comments such as "ooh, that was a bit naughty ha ha", often with a humorous expression or indulgent look. So if I mean to say "That was dangerous" "That was unkind" "That was rude" then that is what I say. If what the child in question takes from that is that they are dangerous, unkind and rude, I think that is better than them not getting any sort of feedback on their behaviour. I would rather they occasionally and deservedly felt that they had fallen from favour as long as they are clear that this is in the context of a generally loving and supportive environment, or how will they learn to behave well in the wider world?

[shortstuff]

:panic: wow, that's so out of order. I am speechless.
I guess your DS hasn't been left alone with her again.

xx

No he hasn't. Thong for me was he was only 2 and she smacked him for knocking her coffee over. Which imo should never have been left where a 2yr old could get it either.

I haven't spoken to her for 3 yrs now. I just don't need the stress.

[shortstuff]

I too have been told that the word "naughty" should never be heard in a childcare setting or from a professional practitioner.

I often hear the term "best practice" used on occasions when those passing judgement lack more concrete evidence to back up whatever opinion they are asserting. That is not an observation aimed at anyone on this forum - I just have a little smile every time I hear it bandied about at a live event or course. The other old favorite that gets used is "unprofessional", which I take it means "your view/practice is different to mine".

But I digress. I do not use the word naughty, partly because it is frowned upon in "professional circles", but also because I fear it has become rather devalued as a valid criticism of behavior. I hear parents use the word all the time in comments such as "ooh, that was a bit naughty ha ha", often with a humorous expression or indulgent look. So if I mean to say "That was dangerous" "That was unkind" "That was rude" then that is what I say. If what the child in question takes from that is that they are dangerous, unkind and rude, I think that is better than them not getting any sort of feedback on their behaviour. I would rather they occasionally and deservedly felt that they had fallen from favour as long as they are clear that this is in the context of a generally loving and supportive environment, or how will they learn to behave well in the wider world?

I like your thinking Mummits.

[bunyip]

Interesting views and food for thought.

As Shortstuff says (post#34) you can choose to use the word "naughty" to describe the child or the behaviour. The OP was about whether the word is forbidden in either context.

I find myself using the word, partly because I'm old-fashioned, and partly to be consistent with what some parents use at home. Again, a training thing, trainers bang into us how important consistency is. So if we make "naughty" a forbidden word we smash that consistency to bits and maybe confuse the child. Obviously there are limits: we don't smack a child to be consistent with home, so the question is how far do we take consistency in this dilemma of (ahem) "best practice" (yes, I hate that one as well.) But I find this presents its own dilemma: different children from different homes used to different things. So we are constantly torn between providing the individual child with an experience which is consistent with what they get at home, or providing consistency for every child in terms of treating them all the same here. I wish I knew the answer.

I think a lot comes down to the age/stage of the child, because there are wide differences in their levels of communication, understanding, cognitive processing ability, and so on. Also the circumstances of 'unwanted behaviour'. Dealing with a child about to step into a road can be very different from dealing with a child who won't let another have a go on the only available swing.

I also wonder about what we as adults class as 'unwanted behaviour' or 'naughtiness'. Few children under the age of 4 can deal with the concept of sharing f'rinstance. And, in fact, it's not even something they'll be expected to practice much as an adult. Be honest, if your neighbour came round and pointed out it was his turn with your car...................?.................."you've got to share"........... ?............. "it's not nice to keep it all to yourself"..............? Just a thought.

And finally.................... Mummits, I'm in total agreement with you on "best practice". Another one for The Childminder's Dictionary, if it ever gets published. :D

[catswhiskers]

I grew up with the word Naughty and used it with my own children when I thought they pushed the boundaries!

Took a break from childminding in 2006 in a reception class to find words I'd never heard off being used quite often to control the children.

Fast forward to a couple of weeks ago and I've just started recording 'The Clangers' on Cbeebies, along with Mr Tumble. Up until a couple of years ago I didn't have the telly on at all for the children, but gradually got used to hearing about what they have watched on TV etc. at home.

Just before an episode of The Clangers there's a story about a dog and children. The children call the dog Naughty so I wonder if Cbeebies have got it wrong!

[Mouse]

Since this discussion started I have been monitoring my use of the word 'naughty' and wondering how much effort I really have to put into avoiding using it.

I've found that with the children it doesn't even come into my mind to use the word. If they are doing something I don't want them to I find that 'naughty' doesn't adequately explain what I'm trying to tell them. It doesn't really mean anything. So yesterday I told a child they were being unkind, one was taking a toy that another child had, one was kicking the sand table. All their actions could have been classed as naughty, but it didn't occur to me to tell them they were being naughty as that didn't convey what they were doing wrong.
So, my reason for not using the word naughty to a child is that I have better words to use. It's got nothing to do with labelling a child, lowering their self esteem, being consistent or not. It's just not a word I need to use when talking to a child about their behaviour.

But yesterday afternoon a 3yr old was playing with a toy policeman and we were talking about what a policeman does. He told me that a policeman arrests people and then asked why they arrest people. I instinctively said they arrest people who have been naughty. I used the word because it's what he understands and that's the sort of language he would use. I could have broken it down into what a 'naughty' means in police terms, but it wasn't necessary at the time, mindee was happy with my explanation and it didn't actually occur to me to say anything else. I guess this is where the consistency with home comes into play as I know it will be used at home.

It's quite a relief to know that I haven't been totally brainwashed by trainers and 'professionals' telling me I can't use it! I would guess that if a situation arose when I needed to tell a child they were being naughty I would be perfectly able to. I just can't see a time when I couldn't find another, more appropriate word :thumbsup:

[greenfaerie]

Thanks for replying guys, some really interesting points all around.

I think Mummits made some great points about the word being "devalued as a valid criticism of behavior" and I agree, if you have some people using it in a very light way, and nurseries (and some Childminders) avoiding using it because they think it is too harsh, then there seems to be quite a difference. I'd like to know where the negative connotations of the word first came from, and why it hasn't filtered down to a lot of parents yet.

I think working in nurseries has completely rewired my brain so that I don't think I could ever use the word without shuddering. Though I admit that is a bizarre and somewhat melodramatic reaction. (Hence why I started this thread, to see others opinions on the matter) We even used to avoid saying the word when it was printed in fiction (e.g. Little Miss Naughty, The Naughty Step etc.) which frankly feels ridiculous! I was raised in a household where the word "Naughty" was used and to me it never seemed like a terrible thing to be called, it was just a description of behaviour, like rude or cheeky. It seems like maybe adults may have a greater fear of this word than children do. Maybe, as with a lot of things, it's not what you say, it's how you say it?

I think Bunyip raised an interesting point about consistency with home, and that is a difficult thing to balance. However, as with a lot of things in my Behaviour Management Policy, my techniques will differ from parents techniques, and a lot of things that are acceptable at home will not be here. I've even had parents request that staff bite their children to discourage young biters, and we've had to delicately explain that there's no way we're ever going to handle it that way.

I seem to be in a strange middle ground, where I don't think that "Naughty" is descriptive enough to carry any meaning to children, and where I hear the word and flinch like Children will feel labelled and start planning out their future criminal activities immediately. I agree with Mouse, that there are much better ways to tell Children that you are unhappy with their behaviour. I prefer to tell Children that what they are doing is rude, dangerous or hurtful. That can focus on the consequences of their actions, rather than the simple act of being "naughty". (The word is still making me feel uncomfortable) :S

I think Bunyip raises a good point about adults not having to share, and this is one that I've thought about many times when trying to get children to negotiate. I find it hard to find the middle ground between "Don't snatch!/""Don't take what isn't yours" and "Share with friends" etc. I never really know how to handle that one, at the moment I just give the toy back to the original child and tell them that when they have finished with it they should give it to the other child to play with!

So I can really see both sides of this argument. I guess I'd want to see see some kind of study on how the word has a negative impact on children before I really make up my mind on how I feel about it. Though I don't think a study could be done without being full of flaws, since it's hard to single out the word as an influence without the study being very unethical.

[loocyloo]

Since this discussion started I have been monitoring my use of the word 'naughty' and wondering how much effort I really have to put into avoiding using it.

I've found that with the children it doesn't even come into my mind to use the word. If they are doing something I don't want them to I find that 'naughty' doesn't adequately explain what I'm trying to tell them. It doesn't really mean anything. So yesterday I told a child they were being unkind, one was taking a toy that another child had, one was kicking the sand table. All their actions could have been classed as naughty, but it didn't occur to me to tell them they were being naughty as that didn't convey what they were doing wrong.
So, my reason for not using the word naughty to a child is that I have better words to use. It's got nothing to do with labelling a child, lowering their self esteem, being consistent or not. It's just not a word I need to use when talking to a child about their behaviour.

But yesterday afternoon a 3yr old was playing with a toy policeman and we were talking about what a policeman does. He told me that a policeman arrests people and then asked why they arrest people. I instinctively said they arrest people who have been naughty. I used the word because it's what he understands and that's the sort of language he would use. I could have broken it down into what a 'naughty' means in police terms, but it wasn't necessary at the time, mindee was happy with my explanation and it didn't actually occur to me to say anything else. I guess this is where the consistency with home comes into play as I know it will be used at home.

It's quite a relief to know that I haven't been totally brainwashed by trainers and 'professionals' telling me I can't use it! I would guess that if a situation arose when I needed to tell a child they were being naughty I would be perfectly able to. I just can't see a time when I couldn't find another, more appropriate word :thumbsup:

:-) well said. exactly how I feel.

[Mummits]

I've been thinking about what Bunyip said about not having to share etc as adults, and I actually disagree (brave :D). Okay I may not be called upon to let my neighbour share my car, but that is because it is MY car (and actually I might lend them my car if they asked nicely). The thing about resources in our settings is that they are shared resources, to be shared. Even as adults we have occasion, even obligation, to use shared resources responsibly and respectfully of others' rights and feelings. How many road rage incidents or parking space disputes would there be if we all remembered to "share nicely"? And in a broader context, we try to support green initiatives and community projects that are all about sharing scarce resources responsibly and unselfishly.

[clareelizabeth1]

I used to work at a nursery so out of habit naughty is a word that is rarely used but interestingly my DS 2 1/2 who has only ever been looked after by me. I think he's only had 48 hours out of my company since birth. Will tell another child that they are naughty if they take a toy off someone else. So I think that all children whether they hear the word said to them that they are naughty or not will know the meaning and will tell each other they are naughty.

When DS told another child "no take you naughty" at group the other week I had another parent say to me. "Oh I wonder where they learnt that word then" in a very snide tone. It almost felt like my child had been caught swearing and I think the hatred of the word naughty has got over the top and although I don't use it I don't see anything wrong with it.

Another point could be is that over the years the word naught has gone out of favour but then I also think the behaviour of children is getting worse as the years go by. Could this be linked to the fact that no one feels they can tell children their behaviour is unacceptable/naughty and without being told out right the children never learn.

[Simona]

I've been thinking about what Bunyip said about not having to share etc as adults, and I actually disagree (brave :D). Okay I may not be called upon to let my neighbour share my car, but that is because it is MY car (and actually I might lend them my car if they asked nicely). The thing about resources in our settings is that they are shared resources, to be shared. Even as adults we have occasion, even obligation, to use shared resources responsibly and respectfully of others' rights and feelings. How many road rage incidents or parking space disputes would there be if we all remembered to "share nicely"? And in a broader context, we try to support green initiatives and community projects that are all about sharing scarce resources responsibly and unselfishly.

You never needed to worry about putting across your point of view and actually 'disagreeing'...you would never have got the verbal
some of us have to put up with....and which the forum thinks is ok or does not object to.

Seems to me that everyone who commented was able to express their view and say we can tell children their behaviour is unwanted but using words other than naughty...pick our own and call a spade a spade! or use the word.

(having worked in nurseries and preschools recently and in the past...it is not that they are forbidden from using it...it is part of their policy not to and address behaviour in another ways)

or that going to training or conferences to listen and learn is being 'brainwashed'?

It makes me think when people ask us 'how are you?' ...the answer is usually 'fine'...one word when dozens could be used.

Thanks for your contribution Mouse...I agree with you when you say the word never comes into your mind and you choose to call the behaviour exactly what it is!...I think that is what I was trying to say

I now await the shower of verbal for daring to disagree or daring to come back or another deleted comment...this is a subject from which we can never ...move on...it pops up all the time!

[Mummits]

I'm sorry Simona if you are upset. I think it is good to have full and frank exchanges of views, so long as it does not get personal. I hope I can sometimes disagree with anyone on here, and quite often agree strongly with some points and disagree with others made by the same person. It all helps me to reflect, and sometimes it takes time for me to adjust my own thinking but I change my own view later or handle the next situation that arises differently as a result. You can't always come back and say "actually you did have a good point".

I'm afraid I don't totally follow what you are saying, possibly because there are deleted comments in this thread - always a shame in my view if it comes to that. I am on a local chat site and they are always deleting posts and it makes it impossible to follow the discussion and is very irritating.

[shortstuff]

I'm sorry Simona if you are upset. I think it is good to have full and frank exchanges of views, so long as it does not get personal. I hope I can sometimes disagree with anyone on here, and quite often agree strongly with some points and disagree with others made by the same person. It all helps me to reflect, and sometimes it takes time for me to adjust my own thinking but I change my own view later or handle the next situation that arises differently as a result. You can't always come back and say "actually you did have a good point".

I'm afraid I don't totally follow what you are saying, possibly because there are deleted comments in this thread - always a shame in my view if it comes to that. I am on a local chat site and they are always deleting posts and it makes it impossible to follow the discussion and is very irritating.

I dont think any of the thread has been deleted Mummits :thumbsup:

i do however think that unfortunately there has been an individual who takes conversation as a personal attack. Which I would be very surprised if it actually was. It was an open discussion as you said. As far as I am aware and have witnessed we are all completely individual and our views are as such. I also enjoyed the conversation greatly and gleaned quite a bit of information from it :thumbsup:

[bunyip]

I've been thinking about what Bunyip said about not having to share etc as adults, and I actually disagree (brave :D). Okay I may not be called upon to let my neighbour share my car, but that is because it is MY car (and actually I might lend them my car if they asked nicely). The thing about resources in our settings is that they are shared resources, to be shared. Even as adults we have occasion, even obligation, to use shared resources responsibly and respectfully of others' rights and feelings. How many road rage incidents or parking space disputes would there be if we all remembered to "share nicely"? And in a broader context, we try to support green initiatives and community projects that are all about sharing scarce resources responsibly and unselfishly.

Good point. Now I think about it, I usually am talking about children using what should be shared resources. But I also expect children to share any toy they bring along, which may well be very wrong of me. I see parents doing the same with their children amongst others.

The one that always foxes me is which argument holds priority when it comes to "s/he won't share" versus "but I had it first". I'm always tempted to walk away from that sort of dispute. :p

I wonder if "naughty" is a generational thing? perhaps a word that, without actually being 'wrong' will just fall into disuse once some of us have shuffled off our mortal coil. :huh:

[Simona]

I'm sorry Simona if you are upset. I think it is good to have full and frank exchanges of views, so long as it does not get personal. I hope I can sometimes disagree with anyone on here, and quite often agree strongly with some points and disagree with others made by the same person. It all helps me to reflect, and sometimes it takes time for me to adjust my own thinking but I change my own view later or handle the next situation that arises differently as a result. You can't always come back and say "actually you did have a good point".

I'm afraid I don't totally follow what you are saying, possibly because there are deleted comments in this thread - always a shame in my view if it comes to that. I am on a local chat site and they are always deleting posts and it makes it impossible to follow the discussion and is very irritating.

I am not upset Mummits...that is not what I feel
I do agree with discussing issues, sometimes people agree sometimes they don't...at least you do say you are not sure you followed what I meant...sorry if I did not explain myself well
What was concerning after was you saying you dared to disagree with Bunyip...are we not allowed to?

Constructive criticism I like and accept...the use of words and method is what I found unacceptable and offensive...and belittling people for their views...why?

Shortstuff...that 'individual is a person and has a name...you can say it....my name is Simona and Bunyip's constant criticism follows me very often
Bunyip...I do not agree with all your views but, as I said, I read them and move on...

if you could be a little less offensive I would not mind...I do not intend being given time out and sitting there ...I always come out and challenge.

It seems to me a little strange that so many members did not understand my point of view when I came back and tried to explain...English is my 2nd language but I feel I have good command of it....I was being as clear as I could.

As said...this topic will come up over and over again and I too have learnt a lot and am reading now how people view the use of 'sharing'...or is it 'taking turns'?...another interesting part of behaviour.

[bunyip]

I am not upset Mummits...that is not what I feel
What was concerning after was you saying you dared to disagree with Bunyip...are we not allowed to?



Hell yes. I actually disagree with myself quite a bit (never alone with schizophrenia :D ) At the very least, I find myself disagreeing over time with views I previously held.

That where the forum is so beneficial. I don't know about everyone else, but exposure to different views encourages me to change. Bland agreement does not. Which could be why it goes unnoticed when I agree, which is probably most of the time.

[natlou82]

Yes I find the forum does make me consider things from all different angles and that's why I love it. This thread has been very interesting as I do use the word naughty but I will be now paying attention as to why I use it and in what context. I had no idea before this thread that it was such a taboo word! Some very interesting points have been made and I will review my practice as a result.

[Mouse]

I think we're often either trained or told that certain things are taboo where children are concerned. Depending on when we were trained, what the trainer's own views were or what was the trendy thing at the time, we have different ideas on what is 'allowed' or not. This forum is good for making me think about whether my views are for a reason or whether I like/dislike things out of habit. Take the use of the word 'naughty'. I was told that it shouldn't be used when talking to children, so I never have. This post has made me question whether I avoid the word because I've been told to, or whether there is a valid reason behind not using it, which in my case there is.

I have a similar quandary over gun play. I was always told we shouldn't allow it at all, so was very much against it without really being able to say why. But I have seen discussions on here where it's made me question whether it's such a bad thing after all. I still haven't made my mind up on that one, but it certainly made me think.

[Simona]

Pacey has just tweeted this link to a research on this subject
This is what I was trying to say in my own way

Children Become the Negative Names They Are Called | NLP Discoveries (http://blogs.psychcentral.com/nlp/2014/05/children-become-the-negative-names-they-are-called/)

[Mummits]

[QUOTE=Simona;1404052
What was concerning after was you saying you dared to disagree with Bunyip...are we not allowed to?

/QUOTE]

I was only joking Simona. Don't worry, I am not really worried about disagreeing with Bunyip or anybody else really.

[Mouse]

Don't worry, I am not really worried about disagreeing with Bunyip


Really? He terrifies me ;):laughing:

[Mummits]

He's probably pretty terrifying in real life. Mrs Bunyip must be a saint (if she really exists and isn't Bunyip's imaginary friend)

[greenfaerie]

Thanks for that link Simona, I was eager for some research in this area! I like to have opinions that are backed with evidence where possible. :)

[FussyElmo]

Really? He terrifies me ;):laughing:

Please he's just a cuddly pussycat

[HTSMumma]

As someone who isn't that bothered by the word naughty, I must say I agree with the link below. Calling a child a negative name does cause damage in the long run. I will never call a child naughty, bossy, mean, unkind etc...
I will only ever label the behaviour. And this is why I don't find the juvenile word 'naughty' a bad thing.

I find some of the words people have tried to substitute naughty for more complicated to explain to children. The word 'unacceptable' for example. How on earth can I explain unacceptable to a two year old?!? I always try to explain why I'm saying their behaviour is not nice and I find it easier to say "that was naughty because you hurt so-and-so and that's made them cry" or "throwing that toy was naughty because it could have broke it or hit someone".

Naughty is easy to explain to a little one. Unacceptable sounds so much more harsh to me.

[smurfette]

As someone who isn't that bothered by the word naughty, I must say I agree with the link below. Calling a child a negative name does cause damage in the long run. I will never call a child naughty, bossy, mean, unkind etc... I will only ever label the behaviour. And this is why I don't find the juvenile word 'naughty' a bad thing. I find some of the words people have tried to substitute naughty for more complicated to explain to children. The word 'unacceptable' for example. How on earth can I explain unacceptable to a two year old?!? I always try to explain why I'm saying their behaviour is not nice and I find it easier to say "that was naughty because you hurt so-and-so and that's made them cry" or "throwing that toy was naughty because it could have broke it or hit someone". Naughty is easy to explain to a little one. Unacceptable sounds so much more harsh to me.

I agree, you hear
Supernanny saying 'that's unacceptable' to little ones and I don't see how they understand! I also don't say 'you are naughty' but like you I say 'that's naughty (or bold as
We say in Ireland!) because ..... So they know why it was wrong and then I say 'it's nice to ... / or in my house we share all the toys ' etc

[bunyip]

He's probably pretty terrifying in real life. Mrs Bunyip must be a saint (if she really exists and isn't Bunyip's imaginary friend)

Wrong way round..........................I'm scared of Mrs B. :eek:

[k1rstie]

I don't really understand sharing!!!! Sometimes it can be used as bullying.

Child A is playing with a toy and is really enjoying it.
Child B arrives, tells child A that he wants the toy. Child A is still playing with the toy, and doesn't want to hand it over.

The next thing you hear being shouted is 'child A is not sharing!!' You reply it's not nice to share, bla bla, and the toy is given to child B .
Happy child B, sad and confused child A.

I don't think that's really sharing, or turn taking

[bunyip]

I don't really understand sharing!!!! Sometimes it can be used as bullying.

Child A is playing with a toy and is really enjoying it.
Child B arrives, tells child A that he wants the toy. Child A is still playing with the toy, and doesn't want to hand it over.

The next thing you hear being shouted is 'child A is not sharing!!' You reply it's not nice to share, bla bla, and the toy is given to child B .
Happy child B, sad and confused child A.

I don't think that's really sharing, or turn taking

One to think about.

I'll make a note to add an entry for "sharing" in The Childminders' Dictionary. ;)

[Mouse]

I don't really understand sharing!!!! Sometimes it can be used as bullying.

Child A is playing with a toy and is really enjoying it.
Child B arrives, tells child A that he wants the toy. Child A is still playing with the toy, and doesn't want to hand it over.

The next thing you hear being shouted is 'child A is not sharing!!' You reply it's not nice to share, bla bla, and the toy is given to child B .
Happy child B, sad and confused child A.

I don't think that's really sharing, or turn taking

I deal with it differently after I read an article that I think was linked to on here.

It's all about getting the children to say what they want.

If A is playing happily and B wants the toy, B says "I want to play with that". A tells them "I'm playing with it and I don't want you to have it". B says "can I have it when you're finished?" A says yes and carries on playing, but hands the toy over when they've finished with it.

That's a very simplified version, but you get the idea. Everyone is happy. A knows they can keep the toy, but that someone else would like it and they need to hand it over when they've finished. B is happy because they know they will get the toy at some point, so goes off to play with something else until it's their turn. A is sharing, but not having to give the toy up straight away and B is learning that they have to wait for some things they want.

The whole process took a bit of time to implement as I initially had to do all the talking for them and show them how it worked, but now the children are quite happy to sort out the whole "sharing" thing themselves. Rather than saying they want a toy, or trying to take it, they will say "can I have that when you're finished with it?"

[Mummits]

I agree with Mouse's version of sharing. The only thing I would add is that sometimes child A then hangs on to the toy for ages longer than they probably would have done, just to be annoying If it is a really popular resource or I think kids are hanging on to something to be awkward, I do sometimes resort to putting a time limit on each turn. I have egg timers of various durations so if there is a lot of squabbling over a particular toy I will rule that it is a red sandtimer turn each for example, rather than completely open-ended.

[Mouse]

I agree with Mouse's version of sharing. The only thing I would add is that sometimes child A then hangs on to the toy for ages longer than they probably would have done, just to be annoying If it is a really popular resource or I think kids are hanging on to something to be awkward, I do sometimes resort to putting a time limit on each turn. I have egg timers of various durations so if there is a lot of squabbling over a particular toy I will rule that it is a red sandtimer turn each for example, rather than completely open-ended.

Yes, I do that for certain things, or if I do think a child is keeping hold of a toy deliberately to stop another child playing with it.

It works the other way as well and stops a child asking for a toy simply because they know someone else has it. If a child was playing happily and I commented on what they're doing (that looks exciting, you've made that nicely etc) I have one child who would go tearing over demanding that toy, even though he hadn't shown the slightest bit of interest before I'd said anything. I now remind him that he has to ask if he can have it once the other child has finished with it. It stops him snatching the toy and when he goes off to play with something else he forgets he'd even asked for it!

[FussyElmo]

Exactly the situation I have had this morning

Fussy Fussy xxx isn't sharing with me. We have to share sharing nice.
Yes sharing is nice but you deciding you want the toy now isn't sharing that's you wanting - once xxx has finished playing with it you can play with it.
10 mins later xxx has finished and the child then gets to have the toy. But I reinforce it by saying look now xxx is now sharing with you.

definition of sharing to a child I want that toy now and you must give it to me

[greenfaerie]

I agree with the sharing issue, I handle it in a similar way to others. I explain that Child A can have the toy when Child B is done with it, which they do, usually coming to find me just to let me know that they handed the toy over, or that the other child shared nicely. I think there's an age restriction on this method though. My 2.5yo daughter always hands it over after 2 seconds happily. I always feel like I should double check that she's really finished with it and not feeling pressured. The pre schooler I mind has learned that she does this and I think she counts on it now. :S Oh well, it certainly feels like they share more these days than a month or so ago!

[lollipop kid]

I have taught my little mindees that if a child comes up wanting a toy they are playing with, they can offer the child another toy and the child usually takes the offered toy and goes off with happily with that.

I've had an 18 month old do this successfully at a new Playgroup we went to at the home corner, when another child wanted the thing he was playing with. Without words, he handed the alternative toy to the unknown child, who went off happily with that. To say I was gobsmacked was an understatement, as I'd only taught this technique to the children a short while before.

I also teach them to say "Ta" if they want something, and hold out their hand. If they are given it, then that is fine. If they are given something else, they are usually happy with that as well.

Works 90% of the time here (until Tantrum phase kicks in proper - then all bets are off :blush:)


LK