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natlou82
17-06-2015, 05:45 AM
I'm sorry I've no idea how to share the link but they are now calling for our responses. We definitely need to get involved if we want to see better funding.

Smiley
17-06-2015, 06:59 AM
Thank you for reminding everyone about this consultation.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/cost-of-providing-childcare-review-call-for-evidence

Simona
17-06-2015, 08:20 AM
Thank you natiou82 for bringing this to our attention again
Good to see that Cms are promoting this very important consultation....it is being widely spread around the EY sector
I had posted the link a few days ago and see quite a few have viewed already.

Absolutely vital we respond as the Childcare Bill has already had its second reading

Mouse
17-06-2015, 08:59 AM
Can I ask, how are people responding?

I was expecting a more in depth questionnaire asking specific questions. This is so general that I just don't know where to start or what information I should be providing!

JCrakers
17-06-2015, 09:05 AM
I know Mouse, Im just looking through it now......thought there would be more questions. Its very...erm....short..lol

Ive just written a bit in there about the funding and how much I lose and charge. Its not very informative is it!

Simona
17-06-2015, 09:14 AM
We need to provide evidence on how much childcare costs to us to deliver

Not what we lose but what the funding should be to cover our costs.
Do a simple evaluation of your costs...all of them...direct costs and indirect costs which you can take from your annual tax return and how you arrive at a certain hourly fee.

The box for comment will expand to allow us to detail our findings.

Mouse
17-06-2015, 09:38 AM
We need to provide evidence on how much childcare costs to us to deliver

Not what we lose but what the funding should be to cover our costs.
Do a simple evaluation of your costs...all of them...direct costs and indirect costs which you can take from your annual tax return and how you arrive at a certain hourly fee.

The box for comment will expand to allow us to detail our findings.

Thank you Simona. I did think that was a very small box to put much info in :laughing:

AliceK
17-06-2015, 10:14 AM
Just submitted it. I really hope they listen to us.

xx

Ripeberry
17-06-2015, 12:33 PM
But we are self employed. We can charge what we like, and if they can get away with it, the government will pick the cheapest option and expect all areas of the country to accept it!

Simona
17-06-2015, 01:51 PM
But we are self employed. We can charge what we like, and if they can get away with it, the government will pick the cheapest option and expect all areas of the country to accept it!

it is not about what we charge but how much it costs to deliver the childcare
Some costs do vary from North to South but the main direct expenses such as equipment/resources, PLI, registration, ICO, membership, training and food etc etc are the same all over the country

In addition we have to add the indirect costs such as car, car insurance, petrol, mobile, broadband, computers which we need to operate.
Add those up and see what they take away from your turnover and we should arrive at a sustainable fee

In my area in the south we get £3.60...some providers in the north get more than £4.....that is what we hope the DfE will look at..

moggy
17-06-2015, 01:59 PM
it is not about what we charge but how much it costs to deliver the childcare
Some costs do vary from North to South but the main direct expenses such as equipment/resources, PLI, registration, ICO, membership, training and food etc etc are the same all over the country

In addition we have to add the indirect costs such as car, car insurance, petrol, mobile, broadband, computers which we need to operate.
Add those up and see what they take away from your turnover and we should arrive at a sustainable fee

In my area in the south we get £3.60...some providers in the north get more than £4.....that is what we hope the DfE will look at..

Costs in terms of money we pay out for things over the year... yes, but also we need to earn ourselves a 'wage' too, and that is hard for us to define as a 'cost'.
My 'expenses' in my accounts are roughly 28% of my turnover (I really do work to keep all my overheads down) but that 28%-figure is not my 'cost of childcare' as I am not a volunteer! Easier for a nursery to define their 'cost' as they have defined wages bills to pay. Harder for us to say, can we say our 'wage' is all our profit... I guess so, but that is variable every month/year as work comes and goes.

natlou82
17-06-2015, 03:32 PM
I'm going to send my reply tonight, once I've looked through my accounts. As others have said though, expenditure is one thing but we also need to earn a decent wage or it wouldn't be worthwhile. Is anyone including what they consider to be an acceptable income once expenditure is taken off?

Simona
17-06-2015, 04:57 PM
I'm going to send my reply tonight, once I've looked through my accounts. As others have said though, expenditure is one thing but we also need to earn a decent wage or it wouldn't be worthwhile. Is anyone including what they consider to be an acceptable income once expenditure is taken off?

It goes without saying that we need to look at our profit as self employed when looking at this....that is not what I am saying at all
We are not waged and our fees have to cover remuneration for CMs....just as nurseries do....their fees cover wages and more.
The consultation runs until August ...so why not take time and not rush into replying so soon
Why not compare previous years' accounts to current ones to look at costs?

For example if you receive £ 3.00 for funded hours but charge £ 4.50 for non funded ones ...how have you arrived at the latter figure?...and why?
One more thing to look at is what funding will we require when we have children talking the 30 hours? Is this viable with less full fee hours to return a sustainable turnover?

AliceK
17-06-2015, 05:39 PM
I have put in mine what it costs me per hour to offer the service I do. That is the cost minus my "wages". I have put what my LA pays per hour and made reference to the £ they keep from the rate that central government pays them. That IMO is the problem. Central government pays a decent amount but by the time the local LA creams off their bit what is left to pay us is a pittance.

xxx

sarah707
17-06-2015, 06:01 PM
Don't forget - we will also need to keep 30 hours a week free through 13 / 14 holiday weeks with no income from the sessions!!

I'm writing something for it but I think it's a bit long I have a lot to say .... :laughing:

natlou82
17-06-2015, 06:49 PM
Hmm, you are right Simona and Sarah there's a lot to think about here. My fees are quite low and the funding I would receive (no funded children yet) is actually on par. But I understand the issue for many other providers and think it's important that I support other CMs on this. I also want to provide the 30 hours when it comes to fruition so I need to make sure the funding is sustainable in the long term so I certainly don't want to rush my response.

lollipop kid
17-06-2015, 07:18 PM
Don't forget - we will also need to keep 30 hours a week free through 13 / 14 holiday weeks with no income from the sessions!!

I'm writing something for it but I think it's a bit long I have a lot to say .... :laughing:

Thanks, Sarah.

I was just thinking about this issue and, for me, even if I need to go over my 3 EY children by one child, I bring in an assistant. In order to attract a decent one (to Level 3, experienced and one who actually wants to commit to the role), I've had to pay almost £8 per hour (plus holiday pay and bank holiday pay on top) across 52 weeks of the year. (She gets paid bank holidays if these happen to fall on her two days a week.)

She is self-employed as she works other jobs on the other 3 days each week. I can't and don't pay sick pay, as if she doesn't come in, then my poor old other half has to take a day off work unpaid to make sure I am still in my numbers. I also haven't signed up to a pension for her, as she is still technically self-employed, but I felt that I could justify paying her the holiday/BH pay, as the parents pay me holiday pay, so I can use some of this to pay her.

(When you think about it, though, if I was using her to cover an extra funded 3 year old child, I and the parents of the non-funded children would still be subsidising 50% of her hourly pay, across 38 weeks, and 100% the rest of the time. Then imagine if 4 out of 4 of these children were all funded 3 year olds. It just doesn't make commercial sense for me to use an assistant, but I'm d&&mned if I don't by the powers that be. I haven't considered my taking funded 2 year olds due to my current Ofsted grade, which effectively closes this off for me. And I'm not over-keen on offering these spaces anyway for personal reasons.)

No doubt you've got this covered, but I just wanted to raise it. Especially when there is so much debate on ratios.

(I've had a call from an existing parent today who wants an additional day for her two children, but I can't offer this day because I haven't got an assistant on the day she wants extra. I couldn't even count it as continuity of care, as they would take me to 5 children on my own on that day - and no way would I do that. I've got a child leaving in a few weeks, so I've said I can take her two from then (I've looked after the little boy for 2 years now, and the second child is his baby sister). When they do join, though, even though technically I will be in my numbers for a sibling baby, I will still use an assistant (just so as I don't fall foul of Ofsted).

Hope this helps,

L

Simona
17-06-2015, 08:31 PM
You are probably aware that both NDNA and PLA commissioned a research into the cost of childcare very recently hence the reason they are highlighting funding is not enough.

The PLA research did not include CMs...due to the fact we have a special condition on our data...therefore our costs were not highlighted. I discussed this at the recent PLA AGM.
Both researches were carried out by expert people able to digest the info given by nurseries and preschools and break it down

I have a PLA South Divison meeting soon and have put this consultation of the agenda.
I do feel CMs who are not sure could be given help with this consultation...how to make our response effective with some guidance.


Be factual in your response and assertive...remember the Minister for Employment is in charge of the funding review task force.... Not Sam Gyimah....if CMs lose their businesses due to poor funding she can' t have all the women return to work without enough childcare....many LAs are already worried about lack of spaces
When responding ask for the 30 hours to be spread over the year not 38 weeks...if that is possible....that would be more sustainable.

TinyTinker
19-06-2015, 01:29 PM
I have created a spreadsheet to work out how much it costs per place per hour - it is £4.04!!!! my current hourly rate I charge is £3.20 p/h (discount for siblings!)

eye opening for me! but I cannot charge £4 per hour as in my area the average is £3.20-£3.60 - even nurseries are only £3.60 so would price myself out of the market!:rolleyes:

moggy
19-06-2015, 03:14 PM
I have created a spreadsheet to work out how much it costs per place per hour - it is £4.04!!!! my current hourly rate I charge is £3.20 p/h (discount for siblings!)

eye opening for me! but I cannot charge £4 per hour as in my area the average is £3.20-£3.60 - even nurseries are only £3.60 so would price myself out of the market!:rolleyes:

How did you calculate you own 'salary'/profit? what did you base it on?
I am finding it hard to separate my hourly fee from my 'cost' in my way of thinking... It seems to be that my hourly rate = my cost of childcare as I do not take an unreasonable 'salary' and there is no other excess 'profit' rolling around. I do not have much of a head for maths or business so I am struggling with this concept! Any way to make this simple for me? Thanks!

lollipop kid
19-06-2015, 03:57 PM
How did you calculate you own 'salary'/profit? what did you base it on?
I am finding it hard to separate my hourly fee from my 'cost' in my way of thinking... It seems to be that my hourly rate = my cost of childcare as I do not take an unreasonable 'salary' and there is no other excess 'profit' rolling around. I do not have much of a head for maths or business so I am struggling with this concept! Any way to make this simple for me? Thanks!

I'm going to have a go at working mine out based on:

My expenses - including:
At least minimum wage for the 'actual' amount of hours I do each week. (That means those extra ones doing admin as well. I am also going to factor in hours per year spent on training, CPD, keeping up to date on endless Ofsted updates etc. :censored:)
Plus: wages for Assistant(s)
Plus: food costs; resources simply for childminding, wear and tear, and the other bits that I declare as expenses on my tax bill

Less: income from childminding

= true cost of providing X number of Early Years spaces 52 weeks of the year (I won't count after-schools in this, either for their income or expenses)
Then I'll also need to consider how that would equate to 38 weeks per year (e.g. it would need to be a larger amount to cover the 52 weeks per year amount - similar to a TTO - term-time only rate)

I can't think of any other way of doing it initially - what approach are others taking?

(Head hurting - calculator on strike - giving up now!)

:censored:

L

natlou82
19-06-2015, 04:06 PM
Lollipop kid - I like the sound of your approach I think I will do mine the same way.

Simona
19-06-2015, 04:41 PM
I'm going to have a go at working mine out based on:

My expenses - including:
At least minimum wage for the 'actual' amount of hours I do each week. (That means those extra ones doing admin as well. I am also going to factor in hours per year spent on training, CPD, keeping up to date on endless Ofsted updates etc. :censored:)
Plus: wages for Assistant(s)
Plus: food costs; resources simply for childminding, wear and tear, and the other bits that I declare as expenses on my tax bill

Less: income from childminding

= true cost of providing X number of Early Years spaces 52 weeks of the year (I won't count after-schools in this, either for their income or expenses)
Then I'll also need to consider how that would equate to 38 weeks per year (e.g. it would need to be a larger amount to cover the 52 weeks per year amount - similar to a TTO - term-time only rate)

I can't think of any other way of doing it initially - what approach are others taking?

(Head hurting - calculator on strike - giving up now!)

:censored:

L

I wouldn't include Wear and Tear in your calculations because that is a Tax free benefit which you deduct from your profit each month or year.

lollipop kid
19-06-2015, 04:48 PM
I wouldn't include Wear and Tear in your calculations because that is a Tax free benefit which you deduct from your profit each month or year.

Thanks. Good point, Simona.

On another note:

I wonder how long it will take the powers that be - (when they see the true cost of childcare at Childminding settings: remember that our ratios of this age group are 1:3 - so much lower than those of Nurseries, where I believe they are 1:4?) - to exclude Childminders from the offer all together, as they might just decide that we are "uncompetitive"???

Anyone else smell a hidden agenda? (That's directed at the DofE, by the way - not personal to you, Simona.)

:rolleyes:

L

Simona
19-06-2015, 04:57 PM
Thanks. Good point, Simona.

On another note:

I wonder how long it will take the powers that be - (when they see the true cost of childcare at Childminding settings: remember that our ratios of this age group are 1:3 - so much lower than those of Nurseries, where I believe they are 1:4?) - to exclude Childminders from the offer all together, as they might just decide that we are "uncompetitive"???

Anyone else smell a hidden agenda? (That's directed at the DofE, by the way - not personal to you, Simona.)

:rolleyes:

L

My understanding from reading various bits here and there is that LAs are struggling to provide childcare and the 30 hours are a real headache for them
They will still need to do so under the Childcare Act 2006.
Add to that the fact that many preschools will find it difficult to extend their hours for various reasons and Cms ...will suddenly become very precious.

I am rather annoyed that we were not involved in previous research on the hourly cost...but this is our chance to put things right....50,000 cms can make a huge difference if we all reply.

Mouse
19-06-2015, 05:23 PM
Thanks. Good point, Simona.

On another note:

I wonder how long it will take the powers that be - (when they see the true cost of childcare at Childminding settings: remember that our ratios of this age group are 1:3 - so much lower than those of Nurseries, where I believe they are 1:4?) - to exclude Childminders from the offer all together, as they might just decide that we are "uncompetitive"???

Anyone else smell a hidden agenda? (That's directed at the DofE, by the way - not personal to you, Simona.)

:rolleyes:

L


I actually think the opposite is beginning to happen and LAs/the government are starting to realise how vital childminders are to their plans. My LA cannot find childcare places for all the children who are entitled to funding as it is. I know they are already panicking about the 30 hours funding and how they will find enough childcare places. They realise that childminders are the best placed to offer care that doesn't fall into the traditional 9am - 3pm, term time only format.

lollipop kid
19-06-2015, 05:41 PM
I actually think the opposite is beginning to happen and LAs/the government are starting to realise how vital childminders are to their plans. My LA cannot find childcare places for all the children who are entitled to funding as it is. I know they are already panicking about the 30 hours funding and how they will find enough childcare places. They realise that childminders are the best placed to offer care that doesn't fall into the traditional 9am - 3pm, term time only format.

I can see that aspect of it as well Mouse, and honestly, I hope you're right, but knowing the changes that have crept in over the years (Agencies/2 year olds in schools, etc./Ofsted out-sourcing childminder inspections to third parties; 'teaching' virtually replacing 'learning through play'), and seeing our profile get lower and lower when it suited the last Westminster crowd, I wonder whether or not it's only a matter of time before they try to phase us out again by whatever means they can find.

(I probably had a bad night's sleep - and things will return to their usual rosey selves tomorrow. I think it's about time I started to feel 'vital' again! :D)

:thumbsup:

L

Ripeberry
19-06-2015, 06:23 PM
And in the future will they MAKE us accept funding? What if a CM doesn't want to in the first place?

Simona
19-06-2015, 08:30 PM
I actually think the opposite is beginning to happen and LAs/the government are starting to realise how vital childminders are to their plans. My LA cannot find childcare places for all the children who are entitled to funding as it is. I know they are already panicking about the 30 hours funding and how they will find enough childcare places. They realise that childminders are the best placed to offer care that doesn't fall into the traditional 9am - 3pm, term time only format.

Uhuh!!....exactly what I said in my previous post Mouse. I agree with you...it has been happening for a long time.

Why are CMs speculating on this issue rather than getting on with replying to the consultation and making their voices heard?
My feeling is many CMs are a little worried how to get to the answer....seek support and forget about competing with nurseries...we are not the same....forget what you get from the LA...the DfE know that already.
Nurseries have not arrived at their figure themselves...their accountants have!

Why should CMs be phased out?
As said 50000 CMs can make a difference on this....interesting to see how many will actually reply to the consultation when DfE publish the results....a handful is what I foresee.
How many will be waiting for guidance on how to get to the magic figure? Each one of us is different as are our settings and expenses

Ripeberry..that is exactly what agencies will do...can you imagine an agency cm able to say no to funding? It will be part of the deal....no funding no membership! ...and agencies will thrive as new CMs will be recruited to do as told.

Those belonging to any association seek help...ask them to provide some guidance if you are not sure

SYLVIA
21-06-2015, 10:36 AM
I don't do funding bu have recently been talking to some CM who do. They tell me they get £3.70ish (cant recall the exact amount) when our LA get £4.50, so they appear to be creaming a small profit off each child that receives funding, and in my eyes this is what an agency will do. If this is correct then I'm out of this scheme until it's made totally fair for all concerned. I'm working on my response

Simona
21-06-2015, 10:54 AM
I don't do funding bu have recently been talking to some CM who do. They tell me they get £3.70ish (cant recall the exact amount) when our LA get £4.50, so they appear to be creaming a small profit off each child that receives funding, and in my eyes this is what an agency will do. If this is correct then I'm out of this scheme until it's made totally fair for all concerned. I'm working on my response

The DfE is aware that LAs 'cream off' part of the early education funding...what they do is they transfer this to other services as their funding has decreased....they are not making a profit, they are giving us less than recommended by the DfE.
I believe they can cream off 6 or 10%...not really sure which.
The reason is because the EE funding is not 'ringfenced' anymore as it was prior to the coalition govt...LAs can do this and do.
Interesting that the consultation on cost of childcare is also open to LAs ??

An agency can offer various services to a cm...that includes 'managing' the funding
Those who join an agency will be aware that their membership package covers all services received....at a cost.
The Ofsted guidance is clear on this and each agency will have its own model

loocyloo
21-06-2015, 11:03 AM
what a ridiculous 'consultation' ... not a single question, just a box to put in your costs of providing childcare!

they could really have asked for a list of expenses/hours worked/funded fees etc!

I used my accounts for the last tax year - total income, minus total expenses ( not including wear & tear ) and then divided that figure by 52 for weeks of the year, and then by how many hours I work a week to get an hourly wage :( makes me wonder why I work!

Simona
21-06-2015, 11:14 AM
what a ridiculous 'consultation' ... not a single question, just a box to put in your costs of providing childcare!

they could really have asked for a list of expenses/hours worked/funded fees etc!

I used my accounts for the last tax year - total income, minus total expenses ( not including wear & tear ) and then divided that figure by 52 for weeks of the year, and then by how many hours I work a week to get an hourly wage :( makes me wonder why I work!

You have hit the nail on the head with your last sentence.....spot on!
We have criticised previous consultations for having 'closed' or 'misleading' questions ....not this one
The only box provided for comment is where we put our evidence on what childcare costs to us to deliver...not what we get from LAs

Maybe I am looking at this from a different angle when I arrive at my figures?

AliceK
21-06-2015, 05:15 PM
what a ridiculous 'consultation' ... not a single question, just a box to put in your costs of providing childcare!

they could really have asked for a list of expenses/hours worked/funded fees etc!

I used my accounts for the last tax year - total income, minus total expenses ( not including wear & tear ) and then divided that figure by 52 for weeks of the year, and then by how many hours I work a week to get an hourly wage :( makes me wonder why I work!

I agree

My DS came home from school the other day and his homework is to on paper set up his own business, detailing costs etc. We were talking about it and I jokingly said to him, set up as a childminder, and then I said NO DON'T. He asked why and I said we don't get paid enough. Then I said, set up as a dog walker. He looked at me and said but they don't earn much do they? I told him they earn more than childminders. He was seriously shocked. Maybe I'll change and become a dog walker lol

xxx

Simona
21-06-2015, 06:33 PM
what a ridiculous 'consultation' ... not a single question, just a box to put in your costs of providing childcare!

they could really have asked for a list of expenses/hours worked/funded fees etc!

I used my accounts for the last tax year - total income, minus total expenses ( not including wear & tear ) and then divided that figure by 52 for weeks of the year, and then by how many hours I work a week to get an hourly wage :( makes me wonder why I work!

I agree

My DS came home from school the other day and his homework is to on paper set up his own business, detailing costs etc. We were talking about it and I jokingly said to him, set up as a childminder, and then I said NO DON'T. He asked why and I said we don't get paid enough. Then I said, set up as a dog walker. He looked at me and said but they don't earn much do they? I told him they earn more than childminders. He was seriously shocked. Maybe I'll change and become a dog walker lol

xxx

You are right we do not get paid enough for the early education hours...but....the fees outside those 15 hours we set ourselves
Maybe the answer is ' we do not charge enough'?

AliceK
21-06-2015, 06:51 PM
[QUOTE=AliceK;1401903]

You are right we do not get paid enough for the early education hours...but....the fees outside those 15 hours we set ourselves
Maybe the answer is ' we do not charge enough'?

We most certainly do not charge enough but unless the industry as a whole charges more towards what we probably should be charging it is never going to happen. If just one or two childminders in an area puts their rates up substantially they will lose the business. Everyone already moans about how expensive childcare is. Can you imagine if we all put our prices up to give us what we should charge.

xx

Simona
21-06-2015, 07:24 PM
[QUOTE=Simona;1401906]

We most certainly do not charge enough but unless the industry as a whole charges more towards what we probably should be charging it is never going to happen. If just one or two childminders in an area puts their rates up substantially they will lose the business. Everyone already moans about how expensive childcare is. Can you imagine if we all put our prices up to give us what we should charge.

xx

The industry is now been turned into a childcare 'market' unfortunately....so you charge what you feel you can get for your setting and your quality.... for continuity of care, for picking up from other settings , cooking home made food and not imported one as nurseries do, for giving the children the opportunity to explore the world beyond 4 nursery walls !!
And for being there for children from birth to 8 years of age and beyond...no nursery can match that!


CMs in many areas certainly do that and do not compete with nurseries... Nursery care is transient.
There is no comparison between an institution which a nursery is and home based childcare and CMs lower ratios!
Parents can certainly moan about the cost of childcare but why not moan to this govt who made it so expensive?
I can' t hear any parents moaning about all the help they get towards the costs of childcare though....their silence is deafening!

hectors house
22-06-2015, 11:15 AM
At a nursery cluster meeting last week we discussed Hourly rates and how most Nurseries in the town make a loss on funding - I actually gain an extra 7p an hour but came to the conclusion that funding should be given to the parents as an amount of money as a voucher (depending on how much the LA pay per hour) parents could then choose which Childminder or Nursery they wanted to send their child too (depending on whether they want the Forest school led one that offers organic food and a Montessori education) or the one that is only open 6 hours a day term time only (perfect for parents who don't work or work term time school hours) and parents should then have to pay for the short fall as there is a big difference in price between the 2 examples given.

Simona
22-06-2015, 05:41 PM
The Lords are not amused by the lack of detail in the childcare Bill!!

Lords criticise lack of detail in Childcare Bill | Nursery World (http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/nursery-world/news/1152174/lords-criticise-lack-of-detail-in-childcare-bill?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)