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mumofone
28-03-2015, 06:29 PM
How many hours should i charge for a mindee who's attending 8-5 but going to preschool each morning 9-12? I have to drop him off and pick him up but should I charge 8 until 5 or literally just the hours hes "with me"? What's the normal thing to do here?

moggy
28-03-2015, 07:01 PM
You need to answer some questions first-

- Does the parent want you 'on call' 9-12 to collect child from preschool in case of illness/child upset/preschool emergency closure etc? (therefore you can not take on another child 9-12 term time)

- Does the parent want you to keep 9-12 available for use in school holidays and inset days? (therefore you can not fill those 3 hours with another child all year round)

- Is there demand in your area for 3-hour childcare, could you fill the 3-hours with another child easily? Bearing in mind if you are dropping off at 9am you need to factor in travel time to get back home to receive another child and have that child picked up in time for you to get back to preschool for 12, so unlikely to be full 3-hours anyway.

I always charge full fees for the 3 hours they are at playgroup/nursery/preschool based on the answers to the above questions and justify it to parents using the above questions.

KateA
28-03-2015, 07:32 PM
I charge full fees if I am dropping off and collecting from a preschool and nursery etc.

mumofone
28-03-2015, 08:27 PM
You need to answer some questions first- - Does the parent want you 'on call' 9-12 to collect child from preschool in case of illness/child upset/preschool emergency closure etc? (therefore you can not take on another child 9-12 term time) - Does the parent want you to keep 9-12 available for use in school holidays and inset days? (therefore you can not fill those 3 hours with another child all year round) - Is there demand in your area for 3-hour childcare, could you fill the 3-hours with another child easily? Bearing in mind if you are dropping off at 9am you need to factor in travel time to get back home to receive another child and have that child picked up in time for you to get back to preschool for 12, so unlikely to be full 3-hours anyway. I always charge full fees for the 3 hours they are at playgroup/nursery/preschool based on the answers to the above questions and justify it to parents using the above questions.

Thanks so much moggy - you're the best :-) :-) :-) :-)

mumofone
28-03-2015, 08:28 PM
I charge full fees if I am dropping off and collecting from a preschool and nursery etc.

Thanks KateA :-) you've both helped me make up my mind. Thank you!! :-)

Mouse
28-03-2015, 10:09 PM
- Does the parent want you 'on call' 9-12 to collect child from preschool in case of illness/child upset/preschool emergency closure etc? (therefore you can not take on another child 9-12 term time)

.

I would be very careful about saying you will collect a child if they are ill. If they are ill enough to be sent home from nursery, they shouldn't be with you either.

I always made it clear to parents that I would collect a child if nursery was closed unexpectedly, but that I wouldn't collect if the child was ill. The biggest challenge though was making nursery understand that I wouldn't collect a sick child. Very often we're easiest to contact and quickest to get to nursery, so they naturally want us to do it as it saves them time & hassle.

bunyip
29-03-2015, 09:12 AM
This is one area where I struggle to understand childcare, which operates contrary to almost any other area of business, and self-employment in particular.

"Normal" (in childcare) appears to be to charge clients for such times they are not using the service. This is so abnormal in the real world, or in other service industries, that I find it to be probably the biggest single area that parents moan about. The parents get unhappy and the CMs then get unhappy that their clients are moaning, so everyone ends up having a big moan. Unhappy clients, unhappy CMs, and yet the whole thing is completely avoidable.

I still believe every CM needs to do what they think best. But I think we need a better reason than "everybody else does it."

The question is somehow caught up with a larger issue. CMs are self-employed, yet seem to cling desperately to a form of 'safety in numbers' by following what everybody else does in sheep-like fashion, rather than thinking for themselves as individuals. I'm not one to follow the flock, and this has brought me into conflict with other local CMs who seem to regard anyone doing anything different to them as "cheating" or "unfair competition." I've always believed that the "I do it because everybody else does it" argument belongs more in the playground than in a child-carer's policy pack.

There is a destructive dynamic going on here, which could be very damaging to CMing as a whole, unless CMs start thinking and making decisions for themselves.

First, the reduction in genuine business support for CMs seems to be driving more and more towards CM groups, where they tend to copy "what everyone else does", or onto this forum, where they ask "what should we all do?" instead of thinking it over and responding to what their clients/the 'market' would find attractive.

Second, there are the beginnings of a growth in alternative childcare models with far more business-sense who are smart enough to offer the market (ie. parents) something attractive, instead of "this is what everybody does, take it or leave it." Now I don't charge for care which is 'wrapped around' preschool attendance, but I do want to be convinced the child (and not just the family's holiday fund) is benefiting from the other setting rather than being with me. But contrast that with the 'home childcare' model: they're delighted to offer wraparound care without expecting the family to pay for not getting their service and they don't run Bunyip's Inquisition as to why the child is at nursery/preschool, etc. So how long before we all lose out to a more family-friendly approach to providing childcare?

Even before the agencies are up and running, we've had a local(ish) large 'home childcare' business making an effort to provide a childcare model with an approach to fees which parents find acceptable. The response of CMs in the area has been to shout "unfair" without even considering the point that they could do something about it. I do wonder how long this style of CMing can survive unless we all learn to adapt. I only have to open my tub of plastic dinosaurs to begin wondering if CMing as we know it will similarly have to evolve pretty soon or face extinction.

mumofone Without meaning to be rude, may I ask? How do you feel about the training and support you've received to prepare you for running your own business? I'm pleased you seem to be finding the Forum helpful and you've every right to come here for ideas/discussion/support. But looking through the threads you've started seems to provide significant evidence that the support a lot of us used to get from LA's, NCMA/pacey, etc. just doesn't seem to be there for anyone stating up these days. Again, this is worrying, as it can only send more and more CMs into the welcoming arms of agencies and home-childcare businesses.

mumofone
29-03-2015, 11:44 AM
This is one area where I struggle to understand childcare, which operates contrary to almost any other area of business, and self-employment in particular.

"Normal" (in childcare) appears to be to charge clients for such times they are not using the service. This is so abnormal in the real world, or in other service industries, that I find it to be probably the biggest single area that parents moan about. The parents get unhappy and the CMs then get unhappy that their clients are moaning, so everyone ends up having a big moan. Unhappy clients, unhappy CMs, and yet the whole thing is completely avoidable.

I still believe every CM needs to do what they think best. But I think we need a better reason than "everybody else does it."

The question is somehow caught up with a larger issue. CMs are self-employed, yet seem to cling desperately to a form of 'safety in numbers' by following what everybody else does in sheep-like fashion, rather than thinking for themselves as individuals. I'm not one to follow the flock, and this has brought me into conflict with other local CMs who seem to regard anyone doing anything different to them as "cheating" or "unfair competition." I've always believed that the "I do it because everybody else does it" argument belongs more in the playground than in a child-carer's policy pack.

There is a destructive dynamic going on here, which could be very damaging to CMing as a whole, unless CMs start thinking and making decisions for themselves.

First, the reduction in genuine business support for CMs seems to be driving more and more towards CM groups, where they tend to copy "what everyone else does", or onto this forum, where they ask "what should we all do?" instead of thinking it over and responding to what their clients/the 'market' would find attractive.

Second, there are the beginnings of a growth in alternative childcare models with far more business-sense who are smart enough to offer the market (ie. parents) something attractive, instead of "this is what everybody does, take it or leave it." Now I don't charge for care which is 'wrapped around' preschool attendance, but I do want to be convinced the child (and not just the family's holiday fund) is benefiting from the other setting rather than being with me. But contrast that with the 'home childcare' model: they're delighted to offer wraparound care without expecting the family to pay for not getting their service and they don't run Bunyip's Inquisition as to why the child is at nursery/preschool, etc. So how long before we all lose out to a more family-friendly approach to providing childcare?

Even before the agencies are up and running, we've had a local(ish) large 'home childcare' business making an effort to provide a childcare model with an approach to fees which parents find acceptable. The response of CMs in the area has been to shout "unfair" without even considering the point that they could do something about it. I do wonder how long this style of CMing can survive unless we all learn to adapt. I only have to open my tub of plastic dinosaurs to begin wondering if CMing as we know it will similarly have to evolve pretty soon or face extinction.

mumofone Without meaning to be rude, may I ask? How do you feel about the training and support you've received to prepare you for running your own business? I'm pleased you seem to be finding the Forum helpful and you've every right to come here for ideas/discussion/support. But looking through the threads you've started seems to provide significant evidence that the support a lot of us used to get from LA's, NCMA/pacey, etc. just doesn't seem to be there for anyone stating up these days. Again, this is worrying, as it can only send more and more CMs into the welcoming arms of agencies and home-childcare businesses.

Thanks bunyip for your thoughts. May i defend my choice of wording. "What do you all do?" in XXX case could have maybe be more correctly worded as "What is considered best practice in the childminding world". As you know I am new to childminding and just to scare you a bit - I have zero experience in childcare other than being a mum myself. It was my own search for appropriate childcare that led me into childminding myself. What is on offer in my area leaves a lot to be desired. I placed my child with a childminder for just a few weeks and was pretty appalled by the whole experince to be honest. I knew that I would be heads and shoulders above much of the care on offer - LET ME CLEAR HERE - compared with the childminders I met and viewed.

I did my course online and apart from that i attended a very brief LA introductory session. I am not a member of pacey. LA help or input seems to be non existent so to be quite frank without the help of this forum I think I would have been sc£wed! I am exteremly grateful that there are experienced intelligent professionals on here with bags more experience than me who are willing to help and advise - particularly a complete newbie like myself who is trying to get my head around a lot of information.

You will have seen a recent thread from me asking about holiday and whether people charge for their own and for the parents and i believe you offered the same advice as you have here on this thread. In that instance I chose NOT to charge for either my holiday or the parents as I felt this wasnt fair although I do see that it is common practice among a lot of CM's. However in this case it does seem reasonable that i may charge for a few hours having dropped a mindee off at nursery and needing to collect them as my hands are tied in this situation and I am unable to take on another mindee. In the holiday situation though I could fill a place with an ad-hoc childcare request from another parent if one of my mindees was on holiday. So I AM capable of making decisions for myself(!!) and taking the experience and expertise of others to suit my setting and what I think (based on my limited knowledge) will appeal to parents that come to see me.

I would happily place a child in my care personally as I am bothered by the minutiae of every process.

My pre reg proved an interesting experience too. I was told to have socket covers and corner guards on furniture which I have read contradicting opinions on here about. I was also told that fire blanket was NOT to be placed anywhere near the cooker, something I have read on here before too.

So, in summary, I think I am just trying to make my way in the world of childminding, drawing on the expertise and experience of others and I am grateful to all those who come on here and advise/help as its invaluable.

And, yes, I think its incredibly worrying too that in actual fact the training for childminders is incredibly limited.

I have 3 families signed up so far - the first three to walk through my door and I am sure you will all share my journey on here and thank you to everyone who has helped me this far :-)

bunyip
29-03-2015, 12:43 PM
Thanks bunyip for your thoughts. May i defend my choice of wording. "What do you all do?" in XXX case could have maybe be more correctly worded as "What is considered best practice in the childminding world". As you know I am new to childminding and just to scare you a bit - I have zero experience in childcare other than being a mum myself. It was my own search for appropriate childcare that led me into childminding myself. What is on offer in my area leaves a lot to be desired. I placed my child with a childminder for just a few weeks and was pretty appalled by the whole experince to be honest. I knew that I would be heads and shoulders above much of the care on offer - LET ME CLEAR HERE - compared with the childminders I met and viewed.

I did my course online and apart from that i attended a very brief LA introductory session. I am not a member of pacey. LA help or input seems to be non existent so to be quite frank without the help of this forum I think I would have been sc£wed! I am exteremly grateful that there are experienced intelligent professionals on here with bags more experience than me who are willing to help and advise - particularly a complete newbie like myself who is trying to get my head around a lot of information.

You will have seen a recent thread from me asking about holiday and whether people charge for their own and for the parents and i believe you offered the same advice as you have here on this thread. In that instance I chose NOT to charge for either my holiday or the parents as I felt this wasnt fair although I do see that it is common practice among a lot of CM's. However in this case it does seem reasonable that i may charge for a few hours having dropped a mindee off at nursery and needing to collect them as my hands are tied in this situation and I am unable to take on another mindee. In the holiday situation though I could fill a place with an ad-hoc childcare request from another parent if one of my mindees was on holiday. So I AM capable of making decisions for myself(!!) and taking the experience and expertise of others to suit my setting and what I think (based on my limited knowledge) will appeal to parents that come to see me.

I would happily place a child in my care personally as I am bothered by the minutiae of every process.

My pre reg proved an interesting experience too. I was told to have socket covers and corner guards on furniture which I have read contradicting opinions on here about. I was also told that fire blanket was NOT to be placed anywhere near the cooker, something I have read on here before too.

So, in summary, I think I am just trying to make my way in the world of childminding, drawing on the expertise and experience of others and I am grateful to all those who come on here and advise/help as its invaluable.

And, yes, I think its incredibly worrying too that in actual fact the training for childminders is incredibly limited.

I have 3 families signed up so far - the first three to walk through my door and I am sure you will all share my journey on here and thank you to everyone who has helped me this far :-)

Hello mumofone. :waving:

Thanks for your views. This is absolutely the best kind of post on here. It's quite refreshing to have someone be open and straightforward without having to hide behind some daft idea that it is "negative" to disagree. Thank you for that. This is where I, for one, get the maximum out of participating in the Forum. :thumbsup:

I personally think new members and new CMs have a whole lot more to give than the CMing world gives them credit for. I came into CMing thinking I was going to have to learn a lot from more experienced CMs. In some ways I have. But too many of the CMs I meet who've been minding for donkeys' years are not so much 'experienced' as just 'set in their ways'. (Heaven knows, I'm more experienced than my grandchildren at doing maths, but I'm d4mn3d if I have the first idea how to do their homework. :p ) I don't necessarily count the forum membership in this. But my experience at my local CM group was that they thought they knew everything and were more suspicious of me than welcoming. That is until I had my graded inspection and suddenly they wanted to cosy up and pinch all my paperwork because they thought that was all that stood between them and "outstanding" - which probably shows more than anything how much they had to learn. :(

I honestly think we need to listen to new CMs, new blood with new ideas. That's particularly the case with those who, like yourself, came into childcare because you saw a lot of flaws with the care being offered in their own search for childcare. It's all too easy to forget how to see things from the end-user's point of view. Otherwise, we'll all run the risk of being left behind whilst other forms of childcare move on and adapt. :thumbsup:

nikki thomson
30-03-2015, 10:40 AM
Hi there, I charge 50% fees when there at playgroup doing there 15 free funded hrs, my reasoning is I just can't fill those hrs.
Now I know I only look after one Lo but if you had say 3 funded children all doing there 15hrs at playgroup and you charged nothing you would be losing about £720 a mth if your £4 an hr, I just couldn't afford to do that, I know alot of cm do offer funding but it's not right for everyone and certainly not for lo I have as it's just me and him he needs to go to playgroup.
So you need to do what you think is fair and right, hth Nikki.

NightOwl
30-03-2015, 12:11 PM
Hi mumofone. I charge for the hours I have lo but not when they are at pre school/nursery. However, I charge a higher fee per hour when lo is with me which makes it more affordable for the parents and works for my finances. If parents require me to have lo in school hols and inset days then I charge at normal rate per hour. Hope my answer helps towards you deciding what is best for your business and childminding families. Congratulations on doing so well so far. I was surprised that your childminding course was done online. I did mine many years ago now, long before being charged for it, or the start of EYFS. It helped being able to talk to other pre-reg childmdrs and having tutors giving advice (I too had no previous child care experience other than being a working parent). I was sorry to hear you had a bad childcare experience for your lo. I was lucky. Before childminding, my lo went to a great childminder (registered) I trusted. No EYFS, pages of policies but lots of good learning experiences, socialising with other children and fun with a knowledgeable, caring childminder. Although your experience was a bad one, it will give you knowledge into what parents are looking for/want in a childminder for their lo (most parents anyway - but that's another story!). Keep asking for advice. I still am. ;-)

Kerry30
30-03-2015, 05:12 PM
I have an lo that I've been dropping off and picking up from preschool. And yes i still charge full fee whilst lo at preschool. The reason being was one of the sessions is an afternoon on one day and the other day a morning. I couldnt afford the drop in income and i knew I wouldnt of been able to fill those slots. Plus lo still needed to come in school hols. That said i offer the 3/4yr funded sessions anyway and as lo was only doing 12hrs at preschool, the remaining 3hrs were used at mine. Altho last term the funded sessions paid less than my hourly rate.
I have no idea what other cms in the area do, and I risked lo leaving. But luckily parent was ok with it.