4 year old at school but wants the space left open for school holidays,how doi charge

[amelia lilly]

Hello had a phone call a lady wanting childcare for her 1 year old and 4 year old 2 days, pick up 4 year old from school 3.30 5.30 both days but she wants me to have the 4 year old in the school holidays so the space needs to be there so how do i charge for this please?

[hectors house]

If child is in full time school (10 sessions a week) then even though they are 4 they are classed as rising 5's and do not count in your ratios for under 5's - they are in the 5-8 category. You are allowed 3 children under school age and 3 children over, so 6 children under 8 in total.

You would charge as normal for younger child, charge for after school term time for older child and whatever they come for in the holidays, you are not keeping a space open so no need to charge any extra retainer for term time. Hope that makes sense.

[amelia lilly]

If child is in full time school (10 sessions a week) then even though they are 4 they are classed as rising 5's and do not count in your ratios for under 5's - they are in the 5-8 category. You are allowed 3 children under school age and 3 children over, so 6 children under 8 in total.

You would charge as normal for younger child, charge for after school term time for older child and whatever they come for in the holidays, you are not keeping a space open so no need to charge any extra retainer for term time. Hope that makes sense.

Think he starts full time next month, thanks

[lisbet]

Think he starts full time next month, thanks

Just checking that he is starting full time in a reception class in 'proper' school, as opposed to full time in a nursery school/ pre-school? It is only once children are attending full time in an infant/ primary school that they go into your 5-8yr old spaces.

Hope that makes sense? x

[*daisychain*]

No where in the EYFS does it say they have to be in reception class , only that they are in full time education. So children attending maintained nursery schools or maintained nursery classes may be counted as in full time education if they attend the full day , 10 sessions a week.

[moggy]

No where in the EYFS does it say they have to be in reception class , only that they are in full time education. So children attending maintained nursery schools or maintained nursery classes may be counted as in full time education if they attend the full day , 10 sessions a week.

Goodness, that is a new interpretation to me!

Well, it says 'age four and five' ... 'a normal school day'... Can that be a pre-school/nursery? If a four year old is doing 9am-3.30pm x5 days a week at a nursery does that take them out of EYFS numbers? Even if they are nearly a year away from Reception Year at school (let's say a September birthday)?

Interesting for some CMers who have always interpreted that at being Reception Year. Has anyone heard Ofsted's opinion on this- do they have an opinion?!

[*daisychain*]

No where in the EYFS does it say they have to be in reception class , only that they are in full time education. So children attending maintained nursery schools or maintained nursery classes may be counted as in full time education if they attend the full day , 10 sessions a week.

This is the information I have in my folder that I keep with all my self variations in . It was from a letter that was shared on the forum a while back that I have printed off titled 'When is a child rising 5?' It is taken from a letter written by Robet Aldred from ofsted.
In my area children are in full time school from the three years old :)

I have found the old post and copied and pasted it here;

When is a 4 year old classed as a rising 5?
If you care for children aged four and five who are in full time education, either before or after school or in the school holidays, you may count them as older than the early years age group for the purposes of ratios. This would also apply to your own child. This allows you have to have extra children in the early years age group but no more than six children in total. This is often referred to as ‘Rising Fives’, it is important to note that whilst these children are still in the early years age group you must continue to deliver the Early Years Foundation Stage.

The Statutory Framework for the Early Years Foundation Stage does not specify that the children must be in reception class or year 1, only that they are in full time education. Therefore four-years-olds attending maintained nursery schools or maintained nursery classes (or an independent school where they are pupils of the school) may be counted as attending full time education if they do indeed attend for a whole school day.

It is more usual for younger children to attend maintained nursery schools or classes on a part-time basis but if they do attend full time they can be counted as older than the early years age group for the purpose of the ratios. They can only be counted as older than the early years age group if they attend the childminder before and/or after a normal school day (also in the school holidays).

This situation would not apply of the children went to a day nursery or pre-school for these sort of hours as we would not count attendance at such a facility as full time education.

I hope this information helps.

However should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us

Regards,


Robert Aldred
Ofsted - National Business Unit
TEL: 0300 123 1231

[FloraDora]

This is a misinterpretation of the information.
The word 'school' means from reception class onwards not in the nursery class.

Even in schools, children in the nursery class are classed as nursery not main school in their admin. I had an Early years area which was made up of nursery age I.e. In the year they were 4 and reception - in the year they were 5. (Only 15 hours of nursery is funded - the rest is paid for by parents so not 'school' -actually just like a private nursery.)
Only the reception age children were counted as being in 'school'. Nursery were not counted in my attendance, whole school tracking and funding as they were funded in a different way.

The key words I think are 'full time ' - 15 hours government funded is not full time - even if parents make up the difference for the rest of the day.
The reception year ( the school year when they become 5) is when the government pay for full time education. Only when children attend school in the reception year do you stop observations and progress assessment and tracking.
Whilst they are in a nursery class you are still expected to do this, though you would be working with the nursery class staff as they will be doing the same.
I have a LO going into the reception class in September, my recent Ofsted inspector actually asked what I would write for him then.....I do a very short summary diary for my after schools and said I would do this for him so that parents know what he does at my house...she said I didn't have to do this as he would be in full time school in a reception class.

[*daisychain*]

In my area the government fund the nursery places full time , not just 15 hours, the parents don't pay anything.
I have four year olds that attend a full time school day that I care for before and after , just like the children in reception. It clearly states in the above mentioned letter that these children may be classed as a rising 5.
How is it "misinterpreted " when it explains it quite clearly in the letter ?

[hectors house]

Taken from Daisychains letter from Ofsted above

"It is more usual for younger children to attend maintained nursery schools or classes on a part-time basis but if they do attend full time they can be counted as older than the early years age group for the purpose of the ratios. They can only be counted as older than the early years age group if they attend the childminder before and/or after a normal school day (also in the school holidays).

This situation would not apply of the children went to a day nursery or pre-school for these sort of hours as we would not count attendance at such a facility as full time education.

Why can children be counted as in full time education and therefore as rising 5's if they are full time in a maintained nursery school but not in a day nursery or pre-school? Or am I reading this wrong?

[moggy]

Taken from Daisychains letter from Ofsted above

"It is more usual for younger children to attend maintained nursery schools or classes on a part-time basis but if they do attend full time they can be counted as older than the early years age group for the purpose of the ratios. They can only be counted as older than the early years age group if they attend the childminder before and/or after a normal school day (also in the school holidays).

This situation would not apply of the children went to a day nursery or pre-school for these sort of hours as we would not count attendance at such a facility as full time education.

Why can children be counted as in full time education and therefore as rising 5's if they are full time in a maintained nursery school but not in a day nursery or pre-school? Or am I reading this wrong?

I can't make head nor tail of it... maybe this can be added to the list of things to ask Ofsted/DofE about (Simona? Sarah? anyone?)

[FloraDora]

In my area the government fund the nursery places full time , not just 15 hours, the parents don't pay anything.
I have four year olds that attend a full time school day that I care for before and after , just like the children in reception. It clearly states in the above mentioned letter that these children may be classed as a rising 5.
How is it "misinterpreted " when it explains it quite clearly in the letter ?

I have researched the government policies and statistical information about funding to children under 5. Absolutely no where does it quote any area that gets funded differently than 15 hours for 3/4 year olds.
If a child is 4 between September 1st and August 31st then they are funded full time in a primary or infant school in the school year they turn 5.

Where are you?
I would like to investigate this further, if it is correct then I would like to take this up with my MP as it a very serious that some children are being full time funded earlier than others depending on postcode! I am meeting with him in two weeks time, so if you could PM me your area if you don't want to say it publicly that would be great.

[*daisychain*]

I can assure you that it is correct. I am in Manchester. I worked in a school for over eleven years that offered free full time places for children some as young as three . My three children , two of which are now almost 19 received free full time nursery places and my four year old son received it last year , he was also three when he was in full time. Salford also offer free full time nursery places and I recently read that another 21 councils (don't know which) offer full time nursery places.
I have two minded children ,one of which isn't three till May who will both start full time this September and a minded child who is there now who is four .
If childminders in my area were to have three minded children ,all 3 or 4 and were starting full time nursery and they were not classed as a rising 5, there is no parent that is going to pay for a full time place at a childminders when there child is in nursery school all day, and a childminder could not afford to just Charge for before and after school care for them and have no other children all day because the three in school were all classed as in their numbers .
I don't want to tell parents that I can't continue to care for their child when they do start nursery full time unless I charge a full day rate , most of the parents are on a low wage and are struggling as it is. What do these parents do ?
They still want me to collect their child as many have been with me since 9 months old and this is their second home , at one of the most daunting times of their life's so far , starting nursery, them and the parents want them to have some stability and that phrase again , continuity of care .
So once again , another grey area that I thought the above mentioned letter had made pretty clear but obviously is 'misinterpreted ' by others ?
I am willing to do what is right for the children in my care and the families I work with and will argue my case with any Ofsted inspector if needs be .
Good luck with your investigations and meetings with your MP. If I can help you with any information feel free to inbox me :-)

[FussyElmo]

I have researched the government policies and statistical information about funding to children under 5. Absolutely no where does it quote any area that gets funded differently than 15 hours for 3/4 year olds.
If a child is 4 between September 1st and August 31st then they are funded full time in a primary or infant school in the school year they turn 5.

Where are you?
I would like to investigate this further, if it is correct then I would like to take this up with my MP as it a very serious that some children are being full time funded earlier than others depending on postcode! I am meeting with him in two weeks time, so if you could PM me your area if you don't want to say it publicly that would be great.

I'm in one of the areas that offer full time nursery places to any child which is 3 before the 1st Sept.

There was last year plans to cut this to just the 15 hours like in most other authorities. However all our la ended up doing was increasing the funding for other children enabling all schools to carry on offering full time provision.

It's very strange to for childminders etc to have funded 3 year olds in sept-dec. Which parent would take up 15 hours when they can go 9-3 for free.

[FloraDora]

Thank you for this information, I have just written to Manchester LA asking for clarification so that I can take written evidence to our meeting with local MP.

I wouldn't want this spreading around the country, but the unequal anomaly needs to be questioned.

[FussyElmo]

Thank you for this information, I have just written to Manchester LA asking for clarification so that I can take written evidence to our meeting with local MP.

I wouldn't want this spreading around the country, but the unequal anomaly needs to be questioned.

I don't believe there are many la authority's that offer this