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View Full Version : Parent trying to wiggle out of 4 weeks notice over holiday period.



Jayse74
13-02-2015, 11:38 AM
I am trying to support my Partner on this but a long term parent is trying to get out of 4 weeks notice!

Adding in "Well it will free up a space!"

But that is not how it works. We have been minding for a fair few years now but this is not fair. The parent is good but every now and then tries it on and I am wondering if this is just plain arrogance now.

The contract changed into Holiday-Only time last year. The parent is trying to give notice now for this half-term week, but only paying for the one week and trying to butter over it with "well you will fill it!"

It has been a bit stressful recently as two parents (this one included) will not stick to what they are planning which made my partner have to turn down quite a few enquiries.
We have also found out she will be using the after-school club which has been taking our and other minders work.

It feels like a massive kick in the guts for all the loyalty we have given this parent. We have never once let her down and we get this :(

Friday the 13th. Booo :(

FussyElmo
13-02-2015, 11:51 AM
I am trying to support my Partner on this but a long term parent is trying to get out of 4 weeks notice!

Adding in "Well it will free up a space!"

But that is not how it works. We have been minding for a fair few years now but this is not fair. The parent is good but every now and then tries it on and I am wondering if this is just plain arrogance now.

The contract changed into Holiday-Only time last year. The parent is trying to give notice now for this half-term week, but only paying for the one week and trying to butter over it with "well you will fill it!"

It has been a bit stressful recently as two parents (this one included) will not stick to what they are planning which made my partner have to turn down quite a few enquiries.
We have also found out she will be using the after-school club which has been taking our and other minders work.

It feels like a massive kick in the guts for all the loyalty we have given this parent. We have never once let her down and we get this :(

Friday the 13th. Booo :(

Do you get 2 weeks for the half term?

Jayse74
13-02-2015, 12:00 PM
Do you get 2 weeks for the half term?

No! Just one week for half-term down here.

The contract changed from all year round to holiday only last September.

The notice period still applies to a holiday contract, or are we wrong?

Jayse74
13-02-2015, 12:07 PM
Do you get 2 weeks for the half term?

How does everyone else do a holiday contract with 4weeks notice?

Mouse
13-02-2015, 12:17 PM
Who do you have your PLI with? I would phone them, talk through your contract and ask where you stand legally. That way you can get back to the parent with all the facts in place. Hopefully telling them that you have sought legal advice will be enough to stop them trying to wriggle out of what they need to pay you.

Personally if I have a holiday only contract I don't expect them to give 4 weeks paid notice. If they gave notice now I would have time to fill the space by Easter which is the next holiday. I wouldn't expect them to pay for the Easter hols as part of the notice period.
Similarly, if I wanted to give notice I would do it now and not want to have to honour the Easter hols and the May half term just so they could get 4 weeks working notice.

rickysmiths
13-02-2015, 12:31 PM
It is a difficult one. I assume you mean Notice to end the Contract and not just Notice that they don't need you for Feb Half Term?

I think the answer is that you have to have a watertight Contract for this kind of thing. There was a case of this on Netmums last year where the parent gave notice and the cm counted the notice in holiday care working weeks and expected 4 working weeks paid notice. It was taken to Court and in the pre hearing arbitration hearing the judge indicated that if it went to Court it was very unlikely the cm would win. Pacey were representing the cm and pulled out at that point.

It is irritating but I think I would accept the parents Notice and move on. If you take Holiday Only Children then maybe you need to have a conversation with the legal line of your insurers and ask what you need to do with regards notice and payment for notice and when is reasonable for either party to give notice?

Simona
13-02-2015, 12:44 PM
No! Just one week for half-term down here.

The contract changed from all year round to holiday only last September.

The notice period still applies to a holiday contract, or are we wrong?

What applies is the signature under the 'notice' section of your contract
If parents have signed in agreement they cannot invent excuses now that you can fill the space...that is too cheeky!
Do you hold a deposit?

I understood Term time only contracts should not allow notice to be given when children are not in attendance...check with your PLI and then tweak your contract.

Most after school clubs ask for a whole term's money in advance and if parents change their mind that is their loss....not the club.
I ask for a whole term's notice for TT only...that is 3 months...it has always worked :thumbsup:

FussyElmo
13-02-2015, 01:08 PM
depends on what you are classing as 4 weeks notice. Is that why you will get paid for the one week? Mum is thinking she has to pay for the feb half tern and then 3 week of school time is her 4 weeks notice.

if you are expecting 4 weeks of holday time notice and then that would take you up to june which is 12+ weeks notice.

All depends on what you have in your contract

Happy17
13-02-2015, 01:18 PM
Maybe a good way of thinking about this is if it were you who was wanting to give notice because you had parents wanting to send their child full time which would obviously be more financially rewarding

Would you want to have to wait till after Easter, May and into the summer holidays before taking on the child.

Might as well say they can start in a weeks time and let the holiday only child go.

Would you have earned any more than one weeks money from the holiday only child in the next four calendar weeks? If no, then you are not at a financial loss.

loocyloo
13-02-2015, 01:29 PM
I have holiday only children and 4 weeks notice ... as yet I haven't had it 'tested' so I'm not sure what/how .. I guess I would accept 4 weeks and if a holiday fell in that period either expect child and or payment.

What I do is...a month or more before each holiday starts I email all holiday children asking for confirmation of attendance. I then issue an invoice which is due within a week. So places are paid for. If a child then isn't coming, I have plenty of notice.

Xx

watford wizz
13-02-2015, 02:24 PM
I have holiday only children and 4 weeks notice but keep one months payment in advance.

Jayse74
13-02-2015, 03:37 PM
So next week is week 1 of the notice period. The parent has paid that.

It is the other 3 weeks now... but mum says no she does not need it at all, so the child will not come here. I think it is do with the after school club, she wants to take the money and pay them instead.

Also the mum used the deposit ages ago :(

We may have done WAY too much for this mum! and are now paying for it.

Simona
13-02-2015, 04:10 PM
So next week is week 1 of the notice period. The parent has paid that.

It is the other 3 weeks now... but mum says no she does not need it at all, so the child will not come here. I think it is do with the after school club, she wants to take the money and pay them instead.

Also the mum used the deposit ages ago :(

We may have done WAY too much for this mum! and are now paying for it.

If she wants the money to pay the school club she is then breaching your contract by not fulfilling her part of the contract by giving the right notice...you can take her to court or let it go as she seems to have caused you enough problems
How could she have used her deposit already when this is refundable at end of care?

I suppose you can use this as a learning curve and update your contract accordingly
Some parents do....unfortunately...pay scant regard to legal documents and get away with murder?...cms need to toughen up :angry:

Jayse74
13-02-2015, 04:56 PM
If she wants the money to pay the school club she is then breaching your contract by not fulfilling her part of the contract by giving the right notice...you can take her to court or let it go as she seems to have caused you enough problems
How could she have used her deposit already when this is refundable at end of care?

I suppose you can use this as a learning curve and update your contract accordingly
Some parents do....unfortunately...pay scant regard to legal documents and get away with murder?...cms need to toughen up :angry:

We don't do retainers. Just 4 weeks notice payable at the end of the contract and a £50 deposit that comes off the first weeks bill (covers us if they do not return)

Can this be done for the 2 weeks in Easter and the last week in May (if there is a half-term break... need to check?)

blue bear
13-02-2015, 05:31 PM
Personally if she gave me four weeks notice today I would count four weeks from today,so next week I'd work and not have them back for Easter hols.

Mouse
13-02-2015, 05:48 PM
We don't do retainers. Just 4 weeks notice payable at the end of the contract and a £50 deposit that comes off the first weeks bill (covers us if they do not return)

Can this be done for the 2 weeks in Easter and the last week in May (if there is a half-term break... need to check?)

So you'd in effect be expecting about 15 weeks notice? I'd say your contracts are going to have to be very tight to enforce that and you do need to check with your insurance company.

Do you really need 4 weeks paid notice when it's a holiday only contract? I'd be trying to fill the space before the Easter holidays, especially if parents have been hard work! I'd happily wave them off as soon as possible and fill the space :thumbsup:

bunyip
13-02-2015, 09:41 PM
I'm absolutely with Rickysmiths, BlueBear and Mouse on this.

As for "writing a watertight contract" which allows you to have 4 weeks of paid notice for a holidays-only contract (which, as Mouse points out = 15 weeks' notice in this case) I think you'll find that pretty nigh impossible.

If you or the client end up going down the legal route, the likely outcome is that a court will declare such a notice period to be "unconscionable terms" (ie. the sort of thing you can write into a contract but never enforce, even if both parties have signed.) That would potentially invalidate the entire contract.

It pretty much boils down to the purpose of the notice period, which is to give each party reasonable time to set up a new arrangement with a new provider/client. If you try to interpret a notice period as applying only on paid weeks (and this would apply equally to a holidays-only or a TTO contract) then you're saying the notice period is variable according to the time of year. There's no legal reason why a notice period should be variable according to different times of year (i.e. school holidays, etc.) It's there for you to find a new client not, sad to say, to guarantee you 4 weeks' money. :(

Btw, it's worth mentioning there is a clause in the pacey contracts about notice not to be given when either party is on holiday (not the exact wording). That's there to prevent notice being served while either party is away on holiday, because they can't reasonably be expected to start searching for a new client or childcare provider when they're not at home. That's all it's there for.

Personally, I'd say you're on very dodgy ground. You could try to bluff this, but I don't see how even that would work if you're not holding onto a deposit. If they don't pay you, you have to chase them through the courts, and I wouldn't be wanting a court getting anywhere near that contract. :(

I know it hurts when you've been good to a family, and they've no right to tell you all that cr4p about how easily you'll fill the place (unless it's meant as some sort of compliment as to how good your service is.) But none of that changes the legal position.

Happy17
14-02-2015, 08:59 AM
The way I see it is if this. Parent had turned up the day before the summer holidays you would be entitled to four weeks.
However , Feb half term

Happy17
14-02-2015, 09:08 AM
The way I see it is if this parent had given notice just before the summer holidays you would be entitled to four weeks pay because you were just about to provide six weeks worth of care.
However, you were only about to provide one weeks worth of care in the next four weeks. Hence only due one weeks pay for the four weeks.
As regards a four week deposit if you still had one, if the parent was due to pay you one week I think this would mean that legally you would have to return them three weeks .

Simona
14-02-2015, 09:59 AM
TT only contract should not be able to give notice over the holiday period when children are not in attendance ..or when the cm is on holiday.....check this with any solicitor or your PLI/association


Many cms ask for 4 weeks notice....others a longer period.
It is harder to replace after school children once school has started....usually parents put their name down for an after school club...they go on the waiting list and then when the club offers them a place they try to get away from a cm's contract....it is well documented.

Does anyone stipulate notice to be given from the 1st of the month 'for admin purposes'?...but notice must not include holidays on either side?
I think it works and makes parents refrain from giving notice at the drop of a hat!

Is there a reason why TT only should not pay a deposit? I can't think of one.

A deposit should also be held until the notice has been served and all fees paid then refunded at the very end (check with any solicitor)

Jayse...if you refund it to parents once they start they have nothing to lose and can walk away any time....deposit should work the same way and renting a house...refund at the end!

Ripeberry
14-02-2015, 10:17 AM
If they have already paid week 1 and you are not having the child, then I'd let it go and make sure that they never EVER come back! If they love the holiday club so much, then they can stick with it, until they get let down, or they can't extend their hours. Parents who don't appreciate what CMs do for them, end up with egg on their faces!

loocyloo
14-02-2015, 07:51 PM
If they have already paid week 1 and you are not having the child, then I'd let it go and make sure that they never EVER come back! If they love the holiday club so much, then they can stick with it, until they get let down, or they can't extend their hours. Parents who don't appreciate what CMs do for them, end up with egg on their faces!

Lol oh yes ... I've a mum who keeps talking about sending child to preschool on the day they come to me and then me in the holidays ... I said no ... 'But preschool don't open in the holidays' ... tough!

Jayse74
21-02-2015, 07:11 PM
Hi guys :)

I am glad to report that the matter has been resolved.

It would have been a great shame if this had grown into a big problem after being on our books for so long.

FussyElmo
22-02-2015, 08:21 AM
Glad you got it sorted :thumbsup: