claiming for food

[ziggy]

From Monday I am going back to providing all food/snacks and drinks.

I cant remember how to work out how much I can claim on tax form. Just wondered how others work out a daily amount per child etc

Tesco online order due this evening, so will have receipt from that to work on

[Mummits]

I costed a week's food a few years back now and it came to something like £2.11 for a main meal with drink and pudding so I thought I'd just claim £2 to keep the maths simple.

[ziggy]

I costed a week's food a few years back now and it came to something like £2.11 for a main meal with drink and pudding so I thought I'd just claim £2 to keep the maths simple.

thanks, snacks will be easier to work out as we basically just have fruit . £2 seems quite low, have you costed it recently?

[Mummits]

No that figure is about 5 years old. I have been meaning to do an update, but it keeps dropping down the to=do list. The strange thing I did notice last time I looked at it was how some things were getting cheaper, like milk (of which we get through truly ridiculous amounts!) whilst others have shot up, especially vegetables and fruit. I do try to counter my more extravagant meals such as fish pie with cheaper ones like pea and ham soup.

[Kiddleywinks]

I do a 'meals costing' every few months and my costs have come down to around the £2 mark too, I started out at £2.75!

Things like milk are just ridiculously cheap now compared to 4 or 5 years ago

[Simona]

Has anyone researched what is more suitable and sustainable for a small CM business?

What is more cost efficient?

1. buying all the children's food separately, putting that through as a legitimate expense and then charge fees that reflect the time and other factors involved in this?

OR

2. Arrive at a price for a meal and charge the parents on top of fees?
Although milk has certainly gone down in price ..other food has not.
Food needs to be bought....cooked and stored, so I wonder if cms are taking account of this in their meal price?

The advice we have just heard from an excellent business training for Cms is NOT to mix personal and CM business...

I am confused how cms can arrive at the cost of a meal via a shared family bill? we were told HMRC do not like it
What happens when the child does not attend?

The practice of sharing bills is a bit outdated and devised 35 years ago when cms earned 'pin money' and we had 1 association representing us

We need to move on and claim what are legitimate expenses...look at NDNA fighting for nurseries to have their business rates cut
Who is fighting for cms ' costs to be reviewed?...looks like I am always tweeting about it but no one joins in.

Some Cms charge so little for food and their fees have not gone up for years...think ahead as times are changing.

My view of course!

[Kiddleywinks]

With regard to the cost of storing food, well, for the most part it's the fridge or freezer, and cooking it's the gas or the electric
The running costs for both of which is claimed for, in part at least, via the utilities %age allowance

My meal costing is worked out by adding the cost of the meal ingredients together then dividing by the amount of mouths the meal is feeding - makes no difference if it's feeding my family and 1 mindee, or 6 mindees + my family, the cost is the cost. If I'm feeding 4 I use less ingredients, if I'm feeding 9+ I use more...

I don't separate work and personal shopping - I hate shopping at the best of times so I'm not doing 2 shops! :laughing:

I don't charge parents for meals, it's included in my costs, so if a child is off I don't claim for their meal that day, yes I've prepared and bought the food in advance, but I also have a son with a bottomless stomach so he's always happy to get additional helpings that are going begging, I also have mindees that are happy to have 'seconds' if they're available but I don't claim twice if they get them...
There is no right or wrong way imo, more swings and roundabouts, sometimes I gain, sometimes I lose, but overall, I can justify what, and how, I do things, so would be more than happy to 'discuss' it with an inspector should the need arise :thumbsup:

[Simona]

With regard to the cost of storing food, well, for the most part it's the fridge or freezer, and cooking it's the gas or the electric
The running costs for both of which is claimed for, in part at least, via the utilities %age allowance

My meal costing is worked out by adding the cost of the meal ingredients together then dividing by the amount of mouths the meal is feeding - makes no difference if it's feeding my family and 1 mindee, or 6 mindees + my family, the cost is the cost. If I'm feeding 4 I use less ingredients, if I'm feeding 9+ I use more...

I don't separate work and personal shopping - I hate shopping at the best of times so I'm not doing 2 shops! :laughing:

I don't charge parents for meals, it's included in my costs, so if a child is off I don't claim for their meal that day, yes I've prepared and bought the food in advance, but I also have a son with a bottomless stomach so he's always happy to get additional helpings that are going begging, I also have mindees that are happy to have 'seconds' if they're available but I don't claim twice if they get them...
There is no right or wrong way imo, more swings and roundabouts, sometimes I gain, sometimes I lose, but overall, I can justify what, and how, I do things, so would be more than happy to 'discuss' it with an inspector should the need arise :thumbsup:

You are right Kiddleywinks...there is no right or wrong and we do things differently.
All I asked for was what works best for our business...was there any evidence about the 2 systems?

I also mentioned the HMRC not an inspector...not sure if you are referring to Ofsted or a HMRC inspector?...but that is an individual choice

With regards to keep personal and business separate...again that is an individual choice but we cannot ignore that many cms do their own accounts but those who employ an accountant are recommended to keep business and personal separate...I was told to do so 22 years ago and never mixed the 2....also many other cms do so.

Again ...what we do is up to us and it is good to hear different individual opinions :thumbsup:

In addition we can claim 10% of gas and electricity for the hours worked and when children are present so to keep them warm....this was agreed 35 years ago...many cms cook in their own time and therefore cannot claim under the 10%...something to reflect on and to be reflected in the fees maybe?

[mama2three]

The receipts I used to work out my food expenses per child were done by doing a mindee meals and snacks only shop.. The costs averaged out at £5 per full time child per day for 3 meals and all snacks. This is the figure I use for 6 months or so , then I recheck to be able to show hmrc that it is still current. A lot varies seasonally , such as the vast amounts of strawberries , blueberries etc my lot get through!
Normal weeks though I most certainly don't do 2 separate shops!

[TinyTinker]

I work out roughly what my meals/snacks etc cost per day per child -and that is what I claim, some meals may be slightly more due to the ingredients used and some cheaper - but I average it out and claim same every day for the number of children I am providing for

I currently put through £3 per child per day for food - I do have children who bring packed lunches and only have a breakfast or a snack from me so don't put £3 through for them obviously.

[loocyloo]

I do a weekly/monthly/daily shop. I work out how much will be used by mindees and put that amount into my expenses. Not just food but toilet paper, cleaning stuff etc.

If it was just me and dh home then it might be easier to do a cm shop but as we all eat the same meals I find it easier to work out each bill. But I've been doing it so long, it doesn't take me any time at all. I used to claim per meal cooked, having worked out an average cost, but then if a child didn't come I didn't put the meal through ... even though I had already bought and sometimes cooked the food, so I returned to working out what I spend each shopping trip.

[Chatterbox Childcare]

I was advised by a the hmrc small business advisor to work it out by receipt. This is by no means the only way that it can be done but is accurate to the time of purchasing the food.

Take your receipt and deduct anything 100% for personal use and 100% for childminding use (childminding would go into your books). The balance is then divided by the number of your family plus mindees to give a "per head" figure, this is multiplied by the number of mindees. I use this calculation for everything, food, cleaning materials, washing up liquid etc...

If you have the same number of children all of the time you can do this weekly, monthly, quarterly, annually, whichever you prefer.

Alternative methods are to do a separate shop (I can't do that as flour for my own cooking is used for playdough and it would be a pain to separate it cost wise and I don't have room to store double of everything like this ingredient), work out a "per meal price" - again too time consuming for me as our menu's and numbers change all the time

As long as your costs are reasonable and you keep your workings and proof you will be fine as there is not a right or wrong way to do it.

[ziggy]

thanks for replies. I live alone and i'm vegetarian so dont often share same meals as mindees. I did online shop last week. Have worked out using receipt what i spend on breakfast/snacks/lunch and tea plus drinks (mainly water lol). So going to use this method for now. When children brought packed lunch I just claimed for fruit etc I bought .

think as all my children stay a full day i will claim for each child per day rather than per meal

[Simona]

I was advised by a the hmrc small business advisor to work it out by receipt. This is by no means the only way that it can be done but is accurate to the time of purchasing the food.

Take your receipt and deduct anything 100% for personal use and 100% for childminding use (childminding would go into your books). The balance is then divided by the number of your family plus mindees to give a "per head" figure, this is multiplied by the number of mindees. I use this calculation for everything, food, cleaning materials, washing up liquid etc...

If you have the same number of children all of the time you can do this weekly, monthly, quarterly, annually, whichever you prefer.

Alternative methods are to do a separate shop (I can't do that as flour for my own cooking is used for playdough and it would be a pain to separate it cost wise and I don't have room to store double of everything like this ingredient), work out a "per meal price" - again too time consuming for me as our menu's and numbers change all the time

As long as your costs are reasonable and you keep your workings and proof you will be fine as there is not a right or wrong way to do it.

Thank you for your input....yes it can be done that way and we have established that
Sadly it did not answer my Original question about which system is more efficient and sustainable....not in terms of time savings but fair charge for meals....doing a separate shop will possibly add 10 minutes each time but saves a lot of time dividing the food on one receipt....no?
It just made me laugh thinking of counting loo rolls sheets and how many do my children use against my family?

The debate will certainly go on between those who keep everything separate and those who don't
I wonder if any cms who employ an accountant can share what they are advised to do?

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Thank you for your input....yes it can be done that way and we have established that
Sadly it did not answer my Original question about which system is more efficient and sustainable....not in terms of time savings but fair charge for meals....doing a separate shop will possibly add 10 minutes each time but saves a lot of time dividing the food on one receipt....no?
It just made me laugh thinking of counting loo rolls sheets and how many do my children use against my family?

The debate will certainly go on between those who keep everything separate and those who don't
I wonder if any cms who employ an accountant can share what they are advised to do?

Sorry Simona but I wasn't answering your question but the question posted by the thread initiator Ziggy

FYI my accountant was more than happy with my system

As previously stated - everyone to their own

[rickysmiths]

You are right Kiddleywinks...there is no right or wrong and we do things differently.
All I asked for was what works best for our business...was there any evidence about the 2 systems?

I also mentioned the HMRC not an inspector...not sure if you are referring to Ofsted or a HMRC inspector?...but that is an individual choice

With regards to keep personal and business separate...again that is an individual choice but we cannot ignore that many cms do their own accounts but those who employ an accountant are recommended to keep business and personal separate...I was told to do so 22 years ago and never mixed the 2....also many other cms do so.

Again ...what we do is up to us and it is good to hear different individual opinions :thumbsup:

In addition we can claim 10% of gas and electricity for the hours worked and when children are present so to keep them warm....this was agreed 35 years ago...many cms cook in their own time and therefore cannot claim under the 10%...something to reflect on and to be reflected in the fees maybe?

I have used an Accountant for years and she was the one who advised me not to have a Business account and pay the costs for that.!! I could not separate my house would be a nightmare!! Two printers because I can't apportion the ink between home and work!! Different orders for ink and paper and photo paper so I have separate receipts? Sorry but what an impractical nightmare. My accountant and I have worked out reasonable % for these things, she is a very experienced Accountant who specializes in the Self Employed so I kind of thing she knows what she is talking about.

Also Pacey review their guidelines every year and I am sure if the advise from HMRC had changed a great deal we would be told. We do not have the same guidelines we had 20 years ago when I became a member they have been tweaked over the years!!

Also the !05 for heat and light is up to 105 and if you work 40 hours + that is 10% of your annual fuel bill not 10% of 40 hours worth 5 days of the week. 10% of the whole years bill. So yes if you cook in the evening or weekend you have claimed and no I don't turn my fridge or freezer off as soon as the last mindee goes home and turn them back on in the morning!!

[Simona]

I have used an Accountant for years and she was the one who advised me not to have a Business account and pay the costs for that.!! I could not separate my house would be a nightmare!! Two printers because I can't apportion the ink between home and work!! Different orders for ink and paper and photo paper so I have separate receipts? Sorry but what an impractical nightmare. My accountant and I have worked out reasonable % for these things, she is a very experienced Accountant who specializes in the Self Employed so I kind of thing she knows what she is talking about.

Also Pacey review their guidelines every year and I am sure if the advise from HMRC had changed a great deal we would be told. We do not have the same guidelines we had 20 years ago when I became a member they have been tweaked over the years!!

Also the !05 for heat and light is up to 105 and if you work 40 hours + that is 10% of your annual fuel bill not 10% of 40 hours worth 5 days of the week. 10% of the whole years bill. So yes if you cook in the evening or weekend you have claimed and no I don't turn my fridge or freezer off as soon as the last mindee goes home and turn them back on in the morning!!

A business account does not have to be one that you have to pay for...just a simple account will do.
This was discussed at the Business training I attended early this week...so definitely something to research and reflect on as it is an individual choice...I have the PPoint in front of me and can vouch for that.
I am sure that this trainer will, in future, become familiar to cms...I highly recommend the course.

Some good tips: to have savings accounts for the business with a small reserve, a separate card and ...even a separate purse if anyone can do that.

There are things we can pay from our personal account then refund our business one in a very simple way as there are things we can easily share between household and business.

Dividing the costs can be a simple matter...we do it in a different way but personally I have never found it a problem...up to each cm and the new ones asking questions can choose the best method for them from the variety of tips we provide

Pacey I am sure deal with the IR...many accountants deal with the general tax system/book keeping and what changes every year...they do not follow pacey but do research the rules around cms as sole traders/small businesses

I did mention taking account of cooking in our free time but I don't think I mentioned turning the fridge off
Again my question was if anyone had tried buying the food and charge fully to their cm account against working out the cost of a simple meal.
I have done it and know what is more sustainable for my business

While some accountants are happy for cms to divide food between family and mindees ...others do not recommend that...again it is a choice
Some cms do not produce receipts for items under £10...I have always been told to record any payment in my own invoice book

I am not advocating one system against the other just reflecting on what is more effective for each of us.
Accountancy, tax and book keeping is a very complicated system!