Advice

[emz31]

Im in need of some advice...iv got a parent who wants me to have their child for 2 hrs in the morning till 9am when I take him nursery...should I charge different for before and after school with it only being 2hrs in the morning.

[Rick]

If you can't fill the rest of the day I wouldn't be taking them on. If you can then I would just charge my hourly rate.

[moggy]

I'd be asking myself these questions to decide how to charge...

How many days a week? Is this actually worth doing at all for so few hours? It is still EYFS so paperwork needed.
Is this a nursery I am going to anyway on these days? Is it causing me any inconvenience?
7am is a very early start- before 8am is 'unsociable hours' for me and double fees.
Breakfast- needed? included?
Can I fill rest of the day from the time I get back from nursery-drop-off? Am I blocking a whole day/whole morning by doing this?

Based on all that, personally I would be saying 'no', I would not do it at all. But, if you want to do it I would be looking at a higher than normal fee.

[AliceK]

I would be thinking that I could potentially be blocking a valuable EY's space for the sake of an hour or so in the morning. If someone else came along that needed care say from 8am you may have to turn them down as this 1 child is taking up that space until 9am.
Personally for the inconvenience and potential money loser I probably wouldn't do it.

xxxx

[Rubybubbles]

See I did do a child 6:30-9 3-7taking an early years space at preschool the rest of time. It worked out well for me as I also had funded children in the middle hours! I made quiet a bit o money at the time due to unsocial hours. But now, I wouldn't do it! I was doing so many LJs or part time children all over the place!

Now I have 2 full timers and 1 part timer (20hours) an it's perfect!

[bunyip]

I do a rate for before and after school, and a separate rate for before or after school. I'd use whichever of these apply, whether it was an EY child or a schoolie.

If it were going to block an EY space, then I'd probably turn it down, and only offer the parent a higher fee in consideration of this as a last resort if they were really insisting they wanted me at any price. Tbf, I think too many CMs jump on the "your child is blocking a space" far too readily and without ever having made much effort to fill those gaps. A lot of parents will happily take morning only, afternoon only, etc. and I'm operating very successfully on that basis. Offering funded spaces/sessions helps a lot, as does fitting in with grandparents to do 'shared care'.

It's just as easy to say that 6 schoolies will block all your EY places, just as much as taking 3 EY children to nursery. But I don't see CMs trying to charge parents a full-day fee for doing school runs.

[emz31]

I'm really confused..I recieved my contracts from michel Morton and one of the parents are saying I need a disclaimer??? Can some one help me because I don't think I have that in my contracts.

[Kiddleywinks]

A disclaimer regarding what exactly?

I also tread carefully with any parent that tries to tell me how my business should be run or thinks they know more about my business than me, the person that puts the stuff in place :laughing:

[emz31]

Not sure exactly...it was the mum who told me that dad said I need a disclaimer with my contracts....I'm a bit annoyed really...makes me feel like I don't know how to run my business.i thought that came under terms and conditions.

[Kiddleywinks]

You need no such thing unless you have agreed to do something different within your contracts, policies or procedures, specifically for this one parent.... Have you?

Disclaimer formal meaning: a formal statement saying that you are not legally responsible for something, such as the information given in a book or on the internet, or that you have no direct involvement in it
Disclaimer specialized law: a formal statement giving up your legal claim to something or ending your connection with it

I'd be making it very, very, simple:
These are my policies, these are my procedures, this is my contract, take it or leave it, thank you :thumbsup:

[bunyip]

Really need to know what the disclaimer would be to cover before we could make any sense of dad's 2nd hand comment. Is he fluent in Fake Legalese, or this his first attempt at talking b0ll0ck5?

Who is disclaiming what? Maybe they're trying to disclaim any responsibility for paying you? Can't see why else a client would be wanting to see a disclaimer. :huh:

The only really effective disclaimers are already written into contracts as Ts&Cs.

Most attempts at disclaimers are similar to the sort of things they put up in cloakrooms about not accepting liability for loss or damage, etc. - and quite frankly they are absolutely meaningless. You cannot simply write a disclaimer to absolve someone of responsibility for something they are legally or contractually, .......er.............well............... responsible for.

:p Weird. Take care.

[emz31]

I'm going to make an appointment to speak with both parents in regards to this. His wife's words were I need to have a disclaimer....as he deals with contracts all the time..but he isn't in the same business as me and all contracts are different. They simple know that if they don't sign the contract or agree with my policies and procedures then I can't take their child on.

[Kiddleywinks]

Being totally nosy, I would love to know what it is Dad wants disclaiming :laughing:

[emz31]

Mum came to pick up son tonight..and basically said that she'd spoke to dad and he said it was regarding child protection and data protection and how they didn't want anything disclosing on their son...I thought well you need to read my policies and procedures which basically states every thing they tell me in regards to Their son is confidential and if I suspected anything I thought wasn't right then I'd speak to the relevant people. And also says on the contract that i abide by the Data protection act 1998 and all the requirements.

[emz31]

Ok so I got a clearer picture of what the dad meant...and it turns out he didn't say disclaimer it was a mutual non-disclosure agreement that he feels I need to enter in to with them has he said that a lot of the things on the contract were missing...which in my eyes wasn't true...one was confidentiality

[bunyip]

Being totally nosy, I would love to know what it is Dad wants disclaiming :laughing:

Maybe he wants to disclaim responsibility for the child.

Maybe it's not his. Does he have the milkman's eyes? :huh:

Suggest you request DNA check.

Please refer to the 'Speed 3' episode of 'Father Ted' and 'The Jeremy Vile Show' for further details. :D

[bunyip]

Mum came to pick up son tonight..and basically said that she'd spoke to dad and he said it was regarding child protection and data protection and how they didn't want anything disclosing on their son...I thought well you need to read my policies and procedures which basically states every thing they tell me in regards to Their son is confidential and if I suspected anything I thought wasn't right then I'd speak to the relevant people. And also says on the contract that i abide by the Data protection act 1998 and all the requirements.

Still, be careful.

Taken at face value, that could be worded to say you'll not disclose safeguarding matters that you have a legal responsibility to disclose. At the very least, it might reduce your options to ask questions about a possible safeguarding concern, say, here on the forum, or with pacey or a children's centre, etc. :(

IIWY, I'd not sign anything that you haven't run by your own legal team first. :thumbsup:

[Kiddleywinks]

Your policies and procedures form part of the contract, so your safeguarding policy is part of that.
The problem dad has, and I'm afraid it is his problem, is that safeguarding is not negotiable with ANY provider, be it childcare, preschool, nurseries, primary school and beyond.
It is not, nor will ever be, something that can be disclaimed.
Sooner dad gets his head around that the better x

[bunyip]

Your policies and procedures form part of the contract, so your safeguarding policy is part of that.
The problem dad has, and I'm afraid it is his problem, is that safeguarding is not negotiable with ANY provider, be it childcare, preschool, nurseries, primary school and beyond.
It is not, nor will ever be, something that can be disclaimed.
Sooner dad gets his head around that the better x

Only 9th January, but that's already a contender for Indisputable Post of the Year award. :thumbsup:

[rickysmiths]

I have to say that Pacey Contracts have lots of holes in them. My Dad was a Contracts expert and believed in Plain English as well and for him the Pacey Contracts were far to ambiguous because they were designed to 'Fit All' and of course we are not all the same.

I have not ever seen an MM Contract but I suspect they are similar.

Now I have always customized my Pacey Contracts and highlighted and really clarified bits that I don't think are clear. I also have a very clear and simple Policy Document and a list of Permissions I require. It takes me abour 1.5 to 2 hours to sign Contracts and all the other bits with parents because I talk them through it thoroughly. One of my listed permissions is to be able to use reins when a child is walking.

As I commented in the other Thread I would not sign a Contract with them. I am surprised you have been caring for the boy with no Contract signed I would never ever do that. Contracts and paperwork are signed BEFORE any settling in and always before I have any sole care of a child. I would stop right now until you have all the correct paperwork in place if you are going to take this family on.

You may find your Public Liability Insurance is invalid if you don't have the Permissions in place because we are required to have these as a Condition of our Registration with Ofsted and we are only Insured if we are Registered with Ofsted.

You are on very shaky ground with a very odd parent be very very careful.

[emz31]

He was having a settling in visit...which i know now that contract should be signed before them,which is why il be speaking to the parents about how I can have no responsibility of looking after their child unless they sign contract and read through my policies and procedures..I am registered and covered with Morton michel with my pli.and will not risk my business for them.

[smurfette]

He was having a settling in visit...which i know now that contract should be signed before them,which is why il be speaking to the parents about how I can have no responsibility of looking after their child unless they sign contract and read through my policies and procedures..I am registered and covered with Morton michel with my pli.and will not risk my business for them.

I think they sign your contract and policies and you can take child on or they don't get with the programme and you don't. I had a strange parent who wanted to query everything and wanted a photo of me and dh and copy of proof of address and all sorts of weird things and I was worried sick every time the Lo hurt themselves .. However they did settle down and were fine.. They were social workers and had seen lots of probs , and nervous first time parents with no experience of how child care worked. They did relax as they got used to it but i am sure not all parents do. Also I use my own contracts .. You would need to check with pacey if you Can amend anything or will it invalidate your insurance? Maybe they will settle with time and reassurance but I wouldn't stray too far from how you want to run your business, you can't have different rules for each set of parents it's too confusing xx

[Kiddleywinks]

Anything not covered in the contract is covered by my very comprehensive P&P's.
When signing contracts, parents also sign to say they agree and will follow MY P&P's - your confidentiality policy, your safeguarding policy - they all form part of the contract, and any parent that still wishes to amend, alter, change things after I have explained the reasons why these policies are there, would be advised they need to seek another provider because it ain't happening ;)
As Judge Judy says: This is MY playpen :laughing:

I also don't do any settling in sessions until paperwork is signed, sealed, delivered and any money due (deposit) is paid

[bunyip]

I have to say that Pacey Contracts have lots of holes in them. My Dad was a Contracts expert and believed in Plain English as well and for him the Pacey Contracts were far to ambiguous because they were designed to 'Fit All' and of course we are not all the same.



I don't like the pacey contracts either, but am stuck with them if I want their insurance/legal support. :mad:

Chief amongst my gripes are:-


They are so inflexible. Tbh, they look like they were written for a nursery rather than CMs who have to follow the needs of working families.
They don't let you draw up a contract more than 12 weeks ahead of the start date. NCMA legal team once told me they are invalid if you do this.
They make a mockery of pacey's "security" when you call them. *


* This requires some explanation. Whenever I call pacey, they want to know my name, address, membership number, etc. Pacey's contracts require us to write this data on all contracts. The contracts also show our PLI policy number. Add to that, it's the easiest thing in the world for a client to discover my age and birthday = DOB. So there is nothing to stop a malicious person calling pacey to cancel their CM's membership and/or insurance. I did once put this to my pacey-employed DO, but the look on her face told me she didn't understand the question. :doh:

[rickysmiths]

I don't like the pacey contracts either, but am stuck with them if I want their insurance/legal support. :mad:

Chief amongst my gripes are:-


They are so inflexible. Tbh, they look like they were written for a nursery rather than CMs who have to follow the needs of working families.
They don't let you draw up a contract more than 12 weeks ahead of the start date. NCMA legal team once told me they are invalid if you do this.
They make a mockery of pacey's "security" when you call them. *


* This requires some explanation. Whenever I call pacey, they want to know my name, address, membership number, etc. Pacey's contracts require us to write this data on all contracts. The contracts also show our PLI policy number. Add to that, it's the easiest thing in the world for a client to discover my age and birthday = DOB. So there is nothing to stop a malicious person calling pacey to cancel their CM's membership and/or insurance. I did once put this to my pacey-employed DO, but the look on her face told me she didn't understand the question. :doh:


Very interesting I have never heard of not signing a contract more than 12 weeks before the start of the Contract. I know they recommend not taking a retainer fee for longer than 3 months but for example if all goes well and the baby is safely born in April I will be signing a Contract with a couple for care in Sept. They are very keen to use me and keen to secure the place as soon as possible. They will be paying a deposit next week and I have drawn up a simple agreement that if anything happens to the baby the Deposit will be returned but id they then decide not to sign the full Contract or start care after they have they will loose the Deposit. I will not be taking a retainer fee for the five months because it is only one day a week.

As you say the Contract is a one size fits all and it has to be that way and I am sure the MM one is the same. I have robust, short, clear Policies to back up my Contracts and I do add some things onto the Contract as well to personalise it.

The point about our Date of Birth etc we don't have to ask for the parents DOB and it has not relevance to our job, it has always struck me as odd that it has to be on the Contract and I don't see the need for our membership number either but just a box to tick to say we are a member would be sufficient. It also never occurred to me that a parent could ring and cancel our membership or insurance. Maybe it is something member should start to question.

However the same could be said of the information the parents have regarding Ofsted. They could ring them and with our URN, address, DOB they could change things.

Maybe both organisations should adopt a unique password to add to the security questions and that password would only be known to use and not appear on any paperwork.

[rickysmiths]

I think they sign your contract and policies and you can take child on or they don't get with the programme and you don't. I had a strange parent who wanted to query everything and wanted a photo of me and dh and copy of proof of address and all sorts of weird things and I was worried sick every time the Lo hurt themselves .. However they did settle down and were fine.. They were social workers and had seen lots of probs , and nervous first time parents with no experience of how child care worked. They did relax as they got used to it but i am sure not all parents do. Also I use my own contracts .. You would need to check with pacey if you Can amend anything or will it invalidate your insurance? Maybe they will settle with time and reassurance but I wouldn't stray too far from how you want to run your business, you can't have different rules for each set of parents it's too confusing xx

Gosh I would have sent a family like that packing! Proof of address when they were sitting in my home and they could see that address on my Reg Cert and my Insurance Cert. No way sorry I don't care how nervous they were and I have nurtured a goodly number of first time nervous parents in my 20 years of minding.

The only weird thing I have had was a couple who came and signed all the paperwork, then said they had forgotten the Deposit (alarm bells rang as I always make it very clear that it is paid when the Contract is signed) and then he asked for a 7 day cooling off period!!! You could have heard a pin drop! I had just explained that during the first 4 weeks of the Contract either party could walk away with no notice! Needless to say I had spent 2 hours on a Sunday morning going through the paperwork in a great deal of detail and I never heard from them again! I now make it clear that there is a £30 admin fee paid in cash when they come to sign and it is not returned if the Contract then doesn't start but which is returnable on the second months fees. I don't always hold to it but it is there if I get time wasters.

[bunyip]

Very interesting I have never heard of not signing a contract more than 12 weeks before the start of the Contract. I know they recommend not taking a retainer fee for longer than 3 months but for example if all goes well and the baby is safely born in April I will be signing a Contract with a couple for care in Sept. They are very keen to use me and keen to secure the place as soon as possible. They will be paying a deposit next week and I have drawn up a simple agreement that if anything happens to the baby the Deposit will be returned but id they then decide not to sign the full Contract or start care after they have they will loose the Deposit. I will not be taking a retainer fee for the five months because it is only one day a week.

As you say the Contract is a one size fits all and it has to be that way and I am sure the MM one is the same. I have robust, short, clear Policies to back up my Contracts and I do add some things onto the Contract as well to personalise it.

The point about our Date of Birth etc we don't have to ask for the parents DOB and it has not relevance to our job, it has always struck me as odd that it has to be on the Contract and I don't see the need for our membership number either but just a box to tick to say we are a member would be sufficient. It also never occurred to me that a parent could ring and cancel our membership or insurance. Maybe it is something member should start to question.

However the same could be said of the information the parents have regarding Ofsted. They could ring them and with our URN, address, DOB they could change things.

Maybe both organisations should adopt a unique password to add to the security questions and that password would only be known to use and not appear on any paperwork.

I asked specifically about the 12 weeks thing, in the context of a parent querying it on a draft contract. The legal team said they couldn't support ta contract signed so early. They also said, in response to another query I had, that they couldn't support any sort of agreement not written on the contract itself (which is a bit contradictory, given they insist parents agree to our policies, consents, etc. Tbf, this was back in the NCMA days, and a different legal team now works for pacey, so they might be less difficult now.

The password idea is a good one. :thumbsup: Perhaps any lurking pacey reps could consider it?

[loocyloo]

I've just filled in pacey contracts with a new mum ... and I didn't need to put my dob on contract. I don't recall ever doing so!

[bunyip]

I've just filled in pacey contracts with a new mum ... and I didn't need to put my dob on contract. I don't recall ever doing so!

No, they don't go on contracts, but still easy for a parent to discover when the birthday cards appear on the mantlepiece.

[rickysmiths]

No, they don't go on contracts, but still easy for a parent to discover when the birthday cards appear on the mantlepiece.

Ha! Ha! mine are not up anywhere where the parents go and my two are at Uni now so don't give the game away!

[smurfette]

Gosh I would have sent a family like that packing! Proof of address when they were sitting in my home and they could see that address on my Reg Cert and my Insurance Cert. No way sorry I don't care how nervous they were and I have nurtured a goodly number of first time nervous parents in my 20 years of minding. The only weird thing I have had was a couple who came and signed all the paperwork, then said they had forgotten the Deposit (alarm bells rang as I always make it very clear that it is paid when the Contract is signed) and then he asked for a 7 day cooling off period!!! You could have heard a pin drop! I had just explained that during the first 4 weeks of the Contract either party could walk away with no notice! Needless to say I had spent 2 hours on a Sunday morning going through the paperwork in a great deal of detail and I never heard from them again! I now make it clear that there is a £30 admin fee paid in cash when they come to sign and it is not returned if the Contract then doesn't start but which is returnable on the second months fees. I don't always hold to it but it is there if I get time wasters.

To be honest I was about to, but I stood up to them and told them that they had ..

References (numerous for various parents!)
Were standing in my house so why proof of address?!
My husband is a policeman!
They had seen my cert with my reg number and address!

That they either got with the programme or didn't take the place.. They backed down then .. Definitely the weirdest thing I had ever come across!!