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4365
08-09-2014, 05:26 PM
Hi Everyone

Two of the mums of my current families are pregnant. I have 3 children everyday already but they will all be nearly 4 (in two years time) when the babies need care and going to school the following September. Can I do this? By the time I have the second baby the first will be 14 months old so only one "baby" at any one time. I feel confident I could do this as the parents would put the older children into pre=school from 9am to 3pm so it only leaves a few hours a day of potentially having 5 EYFS children (and no other school children will be here)

Has anyone done this and has anyone been inspected while doing this.

Any advice gratefully accepted

Rick
09-09-2014, 07:45 AM
Having 5 is theoretically possible and some cm's do it but admin won't advise it as Ofsted don't particularly like it.

Changes to Conditions of Registration (http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/freeresources/Free%20downloads/changestoconditionsofregistration.html)

That document may help you

Simona
09-09-2014, 08:16 AM
Having 5 is theoretically possible and some cm's do it but admin won't advise it as Ofsted don't particularly like it.

Changes to Conditions of Registration (http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/freeresources/Free%20downloads/changestoconditionsofregistration.html)

That document may help you

I am sorry to question this as I am slightly confused as to what you mean 'admin won't advise it'...do you mean Ofsted helpline?

And 'Ofsted don't particularly like it'...is very concerning and confusing as I have never come across any guidance where Ofsted state they do not like this?
on the contrary I understand Ofsted have to look at this as 'continuity of care' and this particular case is just that

In real terms Ofsted cannot like it or not if the Cm is not breaching the EYFS requirements

Plenty of cms have cared for 5 under 5 legitimately because the additional children are siblings as in this case

Variations are up to the cm...her RA, space, equipment and resources and.... agreement with parents as long as it is in line with EYFS
Looks like I have to add another issue for that Ofsted Big Conversation meeting

It would help If you could clarify ...thank you

Mouse
09-09-2014, 08:55 AM
I am sorry to question this as I am slightly confused as to what you mean 'admin won't advise it'...do you mean Ofsted helpline?

And 'Ofsted don't particularly like it'...is very concerning and confusing as I have never come across any guidance where Ofsted state they do not like this?
on the contrary I understand Ofsted have to look at this as 'continuity of care' and this particular case is just that

In real terms Ofsted cannot like it or not if the Cm is not breaching the EYFS requirements

Plenty of cms have cared for 5 under 5 legitimately because the additional children are siblings as in this case

Variations are up to the cm...her RA, space, equipment and resources and.... agreement with parents as long as it is in line with EYFS
Looks like I have to add another issue for that Ofsted Big Conversation meeting

It would help If you could clarify ...thank you

Ofsted has a get out clause - "We would judge at inspection whether the arrangements meet the needs of the children and they are likely to do so."
They seem to be using this more & more often to stop cms from caring for 4, never mind 5, children. Technically the cm is doing nothing wrong if they have 4 or 5 children due to continuity of care, but all the inspector needs to say is that they're not meeting the needs of the children and the cm doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Simona
09-09-2014, 09:40 AM
Ofsted has a get out clause - "We would judge at inspection whether the arrangements meet the needs of the children and they are likely to do so."
They seem to be using this more & more often to stop cms from caring for 4, never mind 5, children. Technically the cm is doing nothing wrong if they have 4 or 5 children due to continuity of care, but all the inspector needs to say is that they're not meeting the needs of the children and the cm doesn't have a leg to stand on.

thanks Mouse...it is definitely something we need to raise at OBC...again :angry:
My understanding is that inspectors cannot change the EYFS ...they can only judge according to its requirements

I recall very clearly quoting the Cms 'variations' and putting that to the Ofsted panel that inspectors were using their own interpretation...the reply was it had to do with training them better.

Are there any cases where this has happened or is it being discussed somewhere because I have not read about it anywhere else but this forum...so it is confusing and could legitimately stop cms from offering continuity of care

If the cm is not technically doing anything wrong then a challenge may be in order?
not meeting the children's needs is...in my view ...different and down to the RA, space etc?

Thanks again :thumbsup:

4365
09-09-2014, 10:31 AM
Thank you for your replies. This is what I am worried about as I have had almost the same situation before in terms of ages but the older children's birthdays meant they were in recption instead of counting as EYFS for ratio purposes. I obviously want to do it as I like these families and children and in our rural area it would be difficult to find alternative care. Equally I don't want an inspector turning up who doesn't like the idea of 5 children full stop and who doesn't look at my risk assessments, plans to limit the issue to a few hours a day at most and the parents consent. I will have to think carefully about whether to "risk" an unhappy inspector! Simona if you do have a chance to clarify this I would be very grateful...I don't need to worry for a good while yet and by then there will probably be yet another EYFS to deal with.

Mouse
09-09-2014, 10:32 AM
It happened to a cm friend of mine.

One of her mums needed to change days at work, so it meant that for one morning a week she had 4 EYs children (no older children at all). At her inspection, she was initially told that there was no such thing as continuity of care, so she was over her numbers and had to send one child home. She queried it at the time, but the inspector was adamant and said she couldn't ever have 4 EYs children unless one was a sibling baby. She was graded inadequate.

She put in a complaint & appealed against the judgement. She produced the Ofsted factsheet that gives an example of a parent needing to increase hours due to work (just the same as in her case). The inspector admitted that she'd got it wrong, but was sticking with an inadequate grading as, in her view, the cm wasn't adequately meeting the needs of all the children in her care. It's been over a year now and she's still waiting to be reinspected, so hasn't been able to improve her grade.

I've always been happy to grant myself exceptions as I know the rules and feel I can justify why I have 4 EYs children (mine have always been sibling babies or parents changing work days), but now it's really out me off doing it. I do feel I offer more than adequate care for all the children, including their learning and development, but now I know it only takes an inspector to disagree with that & I'd be in trouble.

Simona
09-09-2014, 10:44 AM
Thank you for your replies. This is what I am worried about as I have had almost the same situation before in terms of ages but the older children's birthdays meant they were in recption instead of counting as EYFS for ratio purposes. I obviously want to do it as I like these families and children and in our rural area it would be difficult to find alternative care. Equally I don't want an inspector turning up who doesn't like the idea of 5 children full stop and who doesn't look at my risk assessments, plans to limit the issue to a few hours a day at most and the parents consent. I will have to think carefully about whether to "risk" an unhappy inspector! Simona if you do have a chance to clarify this I would be very grateful...I don't need to worry for a good while yet and by then there will probably be yet another EYFS to deal with.

It's on my list already but have added extra bits so I won't forget to mention this particular issue...again...talk about running up that hill eh!

I don't know if you feel you could do this...would you write directly to Ofsted Nick Hudson?
or if you know who the Ofsted director is in your area write to him/her?
Another possibility is to email DfE and ask for clarification ...or even the new childcare Minister Sam Gyimah ...back it up with your parents' comments and views

It would help if individual CMs reported their barriers and concerns directly as I am sure these will be fed to OBC panel

Simona
09-09-2014, 10:50 AM
It happened to a cm friend of mine.

One of her mums needed to change days at work, so it meant that for one morning a week she had 4 EYs children (no older children at all). At her inspection, she was initially told that there was no such thing as continuity of care, so she was over her numbers and had to send one child home. She queried it at the time, but the inspector was adamant and said she couldn't ever have 4 EYs children unless one was a sibling baby. She was graded inadequate.

She put in a complaint & appealed against the judgement. She produced the Ofsted factsheet that gives an example of a parent needing to increase hours due to work (just the same as in her case). The inspector admitted that she'd got it wrong, but was sticking with an inadequate grading as, in her view, the cm wasn't adequately meeting the needs of all the children in her care. It's been over a year now and she's still waiting to be reinspected, so hasn't been able to improve her grade.

I've always been happy to grant myself exceptions as I know the rules and feel I can justify why I have 4 EYs children (mine have always been sibling babies or parents changing work days), but now it's really out me off doing it. I do feel I offer more than adequate care for all the children, including their learning and development, but now I know it only takes an inspector to disagree with that & I'd be in trouble.

Thanks again Mouse and those words are the very ones I quoted to the Ofsted panel....inspectors saying there is 'no such thing as continuity of care'
I have just spoken to a cm who was there at that meeting and she recalls this being raised.

You are right ...this will put cms off doing something that can be done legitimately and with due care to all children's needs ...not talking about those cms who bend variations on purpose!
so still not sure who is advising cms against this ?

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