ICO

[Fitrix]

I know this has come under discussion before but looking into registering, I just took the ICO's self assessment to see if they think there is a need for my business to be registered and was told no I don't. I just need to adhere to the rules of data protection etc - ie confidentiality. I am loathe to part with £35/year when there is apparently no need and I'm not sure what exactly it would pay for anyway? If anyone can enlighten me I'd be happy to listen?

[Mouse]

I think that people often answer one of the questions wrongly on that ico quiz, so it says they don't need to register when in fact they do.

How do you take photos? Do you store any info on computer? Do you have parents' phone numbers stored on your mobile phone?

[Simona]

I know this has come under discussion before but looking into registering, I just took the ICO's self assessment to see if they think there is a need for my business to be registered and was told no I don't. I just need to adhere to the rules of data protection etc - ie confidentiality. I am loathe to part with £35/year when there is apparently no need and I'm not sure what exactly it would pay for anyway? If anyone can enlighten me I'd be happy to listen?

More than what you pay for ...it protects you as Data Controller because of the very details you hold which Mouse has mentioned

[moggy]

On the phone to ICO they confirmed only way to avoid ICO registration is to use old fashioned film camera and no PC at all for record keeping. As soon as you take a digital photo, even if you delete it after printing, you need to be registered.

[Fitrix]

I think that people often answer one of the questions wrongly on that ico quiz, so it says they don't need to register when in fact they do.

How do you take photos? Do you store any info on computer? Do you have parents' phone numbers stored on your mobile phone?

Well I answered yes to this (obviously). I answered yes to most of the questions except the one asking if my business supported judicial issues. The computer says no! I don't need to be registered?

[tulip0803]

Well I answered yes to this (obviously). I answered yes to most of the questions except the one asking if my business supported judicial issues. The computer says no! I don't need to be registered?

If you answered yes to this question it will tell you that you don't need to register:-

Do you only process personal information for personal, family, household or recreational reasons?

This is talking about your own family information not the family information of mindees. You need to answer No to this question and then it will take you on to other questions.

As mouse says you are deemed to be data processing if you store any information about mindees and their families on any digital device. Mobile phones, digital cameras, computers etc. The only way to avoid would be to be completely paper based and not store mindees parents phone numbers on a mobile phone and to take photos only on cameras that take film that needs to be processed. Even if you use a computer/digital computer and delete after printing you are deemed to have digitally processed information.

[Fitrix]

If you answered yes to this question it will tell you that you don't need to register:-

Do you only process personal information for personal, family, household or recreational reasons?

This is talking about your own family information not the family information of mindees. You need to answer No to this question and then it will take you on to other questions.

As mouse says you are deemed to be data processing if you store any information about mindees and their families on any digital device. Mobile phones, digital cameras, computers etc. The only way to avoid would be to be completely paper based and not store mindees parents phone numbers on a mobile phone and to take photos only on cameras that take film that needs to be processed. Even if you use a computer/digital computer and delete after printing you are deemed to have digitally processed information.

Ok brilliant, got it now. Thanks so much for your explanation! Tried it again and you are right - I do need to register. Does seem a pretty futile service though! Talking of futile - funny how it costs same as ofsted annual fee!

[Mouse]

Ok brilliant, got it now. Thanks so much for your explanation! Tried it again and you are right - I do need to register. Does seem a pretty futile service though! Talking of futile - funny how it costs same as ofsted annual fee!

If you ever figure out what you get for your £35 ICO fee, do let us know, I've never been able to explain it :laughing: They don't even send you a certificate - you have to print off your own.

I do it because I have to, not because I understand why :o

[bunyip]

Oh gosh, we're back onto this hot potato. Could be fun, as I usually end up upsetting someboby on this topic. :p

And if I understand her correctly, I'm going to agree with Simona again (shock, horror. :eek:)

As far as ICO notification/registration is concerned, asking "what do I get out of it?" is the wrong question. It's not there to provide you with some sort of service, unless you regard proving that a CM is operating legally as a service in itself. Owning a driving license doesn't provide you with a service, but it does show you've fulfilled a legal obligation. Paying your Ofsted fee is not really that much different. I'm sure there are plenty of unregistered minders who ask a similar question: how does paying Ofsted (ironically, as Fitrix notes, also £35) for a certificate make them any better at looking after children?, and that would in a sense be true - but would it make it the right thing to do?

As I understand it, the ICO was set up to regulate all data handling. It ensures that no business (not just us CMs) is allowed to abuse the data they hold on us - and that is a huge amount of data in this age. Government decided that part of the cost of running the ICO should be met by the businesses that benefit from holding and using that data, rather than the entire bill being met by the taxpayer in general. It does receive some additional support from public money (as well as from fines levied on offenders). So, yes, we do pay for administration, but we only pay a partial contribution to the administration of an organisation that protects and regulates the data we benefit from, and the data that is held on us by other businesses.

If nothing else, you can consider that paying the fee protects you from the consequences of not paying. The least of those consequences would be a fine which, from a QLR the ICO website, would typically be in the region of £5,000 to £30,000 for a small business ( :eek: that's almost my entire year's cider budget :eek:.). The bigger issue upon which to meditate is that failure to notify constitutes a criminal offence, and that a criminal offence in relation to any aspect of childcare and child information handling could disqualify a person from working with children.

To me, there's also the issue of what kind of example I'm setting. Do I think I should be working with children as a legally registered CM if I'm not meeting one of the legally required requirements? Even if they wouldn't know, I would know, and I don't think my conscience would be happy with me. :(

One small point. We're often told that the need to notify (ie. register with) ICO depends entirely on the use of digital data. This isn't strictly true, though I can see how the misunderstanding comes about with DO's et al telling CMs things like "you have to register even if you just use a camera" and suchlike. The Data Protection Act 1998 also applies to personal data on paper documentation held within what it calls a "relevant filing system". This could include such things as a business diary, address book or list of telephone numbers. I certainly think this description would cover even my disorganised filing cabinet of children's information forms, incident book, etc.

[Simona]

I have not...so far...found anyone in EY who is able to avoid this tax...or whatever we perceive it to be...so why do some cms insist on questioning it? Good effort but a waste of energy

It is a losing battle fighting it...Don Quixote and his windmills come to mind!

No shock or horror Bunyip...all I said is that as 'data controllers' we are liable to pay it and kind of covered by it...as many others CMs have also concurred and it offers some protection against holding confidential data on the families we offer a service to

Soon we may have to pay something similar to our LAs just for existing and 'pretending' to offer us support and ...unless I am wrong.... HMCI is about to sell our private data to anyone who wants to buy it and the same is happening to out NHS data !!!:thumbsup:

[Fitrix]

I have not...so far...found anyone in EY who is able to avoid this tax...or whatever we perceive it to be...so why do some cms insist on questioning it? Good effort but a waste of energy:

I think it is better to question something than to blindly follow instruction. Not everyone has been childminding forever and newbies need help and guidance. Even those of us who have been childminding for a while are constantly having to change and update policies in accordance to the ever shifting goalposts of the legislation we follow. So if any needless work can be saved by questioning any procedures etc I think CMs should feel empowered to do so. This forum is brilliant for it - mostly.

[Simona]

I think it is better to question something than to blindly follow instruction. Not everyone has been childminding forever and newbies need help and guidance. Even those of us who have been childminding for a while are constantly having to change and update policies in accordance to the ever shifting goalposts of the legislation we follow. So if any needless work can be saved by questioning any procedures etc I think CMs should feel empowered to do so. This forum is brilliant for it - mostly.

No one is blindly following instructions in this matter of the ICO...we have all tried to get round it but with no success and have looked at all angles...cms need to pay just as all other providers do

There is no work involved in the ICO registration ...apart from the original form...after that is all done by them each year
Cms can ring the ICO directly ...they are very helpful on this

cms also have so many issues that we could unite to address such as funding...LAs...support and much more
This forum certainly helps but each cm will have a different take on things

I was just trying to stop you from asking yourself many questions and part with the £35 ...the one thing I would say is that as cms have less children than ...say a nursery...our fee could be slightly lower than theirs

[bunyip]

The danger with questioning ICO registration is that it could end up another collosal 'own goal' like the time NCMA questioned the cost of medical declarations and thousands of doctors/practice managers suddenly realised they could charge us more for the priviledge. I for one would happily keep paying ICO £35pa and not risk them introducing more levels of payment, since the next bracket at the moment is a jump up to £500pa. There are times it is wise to let the wookie win if you can't understand it any other way.

In fact, I'd rather pay ICO £35 than pay pacey the £34.50 they want to make Mrs Bunyip an "assistant member". For that, the great pacey will "allow" her to call herself a "professional" (big of them, eh?); she can do their training, thus earning a nice certificate in stuff she already knows; and use member discount at their shop, as if I didn't do that already.

Personally, I can't quite see the value in me spending £34.50 to get her a £3.10 discount if she wants to treat me to a receipt book for my birthday. :p

[hectors house]

I have not...so far...found anyone in EY who is able to avoid this tax...or whatever we perceive it to be...so why do some cms insist on questioning it? Good effort but a waste of energy



Soon we may have to pay something similar to our LAs just for existing and 'pretending' to offer us support and ...unless I am wrong.... HMCI is about to sell our private data to anyone who wants to buy it and the same is happening to out NHS data !!!:thumbsup:

It would seem that the government/local councils are already gearing up to sell our data - had a letter informing them that the electoral role has been split into electoral role register and open register - the open register is available to businesses and we have to let them know if we DO NOT want to remain on this register.

[Simona]

It would seem that the government/local councils are already gearing up to sell our data - had a letter informing them that the electoral role has been split into electoral role register and open register - the open register is available to businesses and we have to let them know if we DO NOT want to remain on this register.

My apologies...I said HMCI in my post...that should have been HMRC instead! Sorry !