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pinklady756
15-08-2014, 09:11 PM
I work with an assistant and we look after 5 or 6 children. On a day we have 6 I now need a variation and I'm not sure if its allowed as I work with an assistant already. Basically a lo who comes part-time needs to increase to full time and will leave if I cant do it :-(

Koala
16-08-2014, 06:01 AM
So you will have 7 under 5 on some days with yourself and your registered assistant - I can't see anything wrong with this if it will work for you, this type of thing is what variances are for. :thumbsup:

LittleRabbits
16-08-2014, 10:53 AM
Im not sure if ofsted would approve. I thought variations were for the exception, not the norm. If it was temporary it would be okay but not sure as permanent change? I would ring or email ofsted and if they approve, get it in writing from Ofsted incase they turn up and fail u for being over numbers as I have heard the inspectors will tell u differently.

*daisychain*
16-08-2014, 11:17 AM
I've been in this situation before and done it .
If you were to ring ofsed you'd be very lucky to get a straight answer from them . They would just refer to to the statutory framework . :-/

Chatterbox Childcare
16-08-2014, 11:37 AM
Im not sure if ofsted would approve. I thought variations were for the exception, not the norm. If it was temporary it would be okay but not sure as permanent change? I would ring or email ofsted and if they approve, get it in writing from Ofsted incase they turn up and fail u for being over numbers as I have heard the inspectors will tell u differently.

Ofsted will no longer guide you. The onus is on the childminder to read the EYFS and make their own decisions, backed up with paperwork, risk assessments, parental knowledge.

I can't see anything wrong with this - no different to me having 4 under 5 by variation for a new baby. It is all continuity of care.

Koala
16-08-2014, 03:51 PM
Im not sure if ofsted would approve. I thought variations were for the exception, not the norm. If it was temporary it would be okay but not sure as permanent change? I would ring or email ofsted and if they approve, get it in writing from Ofsted incase they turn up and fail u for being over numbers as I have heard the inspectors will tell u differently.

It could be and more than likely the op is considering it temporary until a place opens up on the day that they are taken over their numbers :thumbsup: and then the lo becomes in your permanent numbers once that magic place opens up, there is NO direction on how long temporary is and until then - how long is a piece of string?? strategy can be deployed. :thumbsup: Until specifics are given to us to work with we have to do what works for our families, our business and probably last but not least US!

Nobody can be failed on something that doesn't exist i.e. how long is temporary? Nor on the whispering of here say. What is black and white is what counts. And as has been said - ofsted will only direct you to EYFS and you have to interpret it and apply it to your setting. They no longer give variances in writing.

JKL
16-08-2014, 04:13 PM
I didn't think variations in this instance were to be temporary? Surely the way the EYFS reads is that if capable and continuity of care applies then variations may be granted by the individual cm?

For argument sake, If I have 3 under 5's (let's say 1,2,2) and they are all long term children with no intention of leaving until school age and then I fall pregnant? My variation would be acceptable as its my own child and the others would be established mindees? It's not going to be temporary as my child would be permanently included in my numbers?

Or am I confused as to how the variations work?

xx

Koala
16-08-2014, 06:16 PM
Once a child leaves to make space for your child - in this instance - then the space is filled by your child and cannot be filled by another. In this case even though you foresee the 3 children to stay for ??? it is still a 'temporary' variation as it will only be until a space opens up and brings you within your numbers. Of course your child is not temporary :laughing: if only :laughing: but the situation of being over numbers due to variation could be considered temporary as it will only be until a space opens up, and the same applies for continuation of care for existing children. :thumbsup:

Simona
17-08-2014, 08:14 AM
it is very true that Ofsted will not offer any help when CMs approach them for support on variations...

that is probably because even they do not understand the obscure English that variations are written in and the short paragraph dedicated to this issue for Cms in comparison to 3 pages for other providers when it comes to their ratios

You would have thought that the inspectorate would have approached DfE and asked for simpler language?...that would be too easy I know!


The EYFS 2012 has been ...and continues to be very unclear when it comes to 'self variations'....it was meant to help us not hinder our provision

the result is that individual interpretations have landed CMs with downgrades and possibly giving up business because many are too unsure or worried about doing the wrong thing or .... over minding which has triggered complaints to Ofsted from those who have reported CMs because they do not understand the framework


Some Cms have possibly misunderstood the variations on purpose? ...but the vast majority continue to genuinely struggle with this matter....and the number of posts in this forum is continuing to rise which confirms that it is a 'tricky' subject and something we need to have clarified...

many speak of new business and continuity of care...but neither terminology are in black and white in the EYFS 2012 or 2014...so cms are making individual professional judgements based on a few examples posted to support the EYFS?
We need to have this addressed

In addition the issue of 'overlap' has been totally forgotten especially when Truss said she agreed it was to be dealt with for CMs
This particular issue would help CMs when they have a child taking up the Free Education in a nursery and we are left with a space we cannot fill for 2/3 hours and constantly argue about charging or not charging....I am sure this rings true with many members here?


The variation matter has been brought to the attention of the Ofsted panel who attended Ofsted Big Conversation in the London area at our last meeting...
There were a few CMs representing associations there in the room when I asked the question to the panel and I am sure they will back this

I will continue to make sure it is not forgotten and dealt with in our future meetings...there are CMs in this forum who were present in the very room and heard the question to the panel so they can confirm Ofsted are aware and need to get back with answers when we next meet in London

Overall....We need to have an answer once and for all and put a stop to individual interpretation from confused CMs and also from inspectors who judge and interpret variations in many different ways

In terms of how long a variation can last...I also organised a workshop with Ofsted to clarify the EYFS 2012 and this matter came up...
variations are to be for a temporary period not ongoing...again members of this forum were present at that workshop and can confirm...I also have the minutes which were published widely with Ofsted consent on a very well known website

Personally if I were presented with a situation when a variation was causing me problem I would ring Ofsted and I would ask for support...if none was received I would also contact DfE and on and on until I got help...that is what being an independent CM means to me ...getting answers from those who legislate and regulate me


I always follow discussions on variations because I truly feel the mess needs sorting...CMs have enough to worry about and this issue is one that is totally difficult to understand but easy to resolve...my view of course :thumbsup:

bunyip
17-08-2014, 10:33 AM
Prepare to be amazed.................

..............I agree with Simoana. :)

The only variations expressly permitted by EYFS are contained within paragraph 3.40 and specifies "...when childminders are caring for sibling babies, or when caring for their own baby." (my emphases) plus the 'rising 5' situation: "If children aged four and five only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, and/or during school holidays, they may be cared for at the same time as three other young children."

The other situations on which CMs commonly refer to EYFS to allow a variation rely on extending the principle of 'exceptional circumstances' contained wthin paragraph 3.29. BUT this falls within the part of the document specific to group settings (i.e. nurseries). Since we don't apply nursery ratios to CMs, I think it is batting on a very sticky wicket to be relying so heavily on that particular part of the regulations. I don't think an inspector would have any problem in arguing they could interpret this as not applying to CMs - or, indeed, if Ofsted wished to change their own interpretation at a later date.

If the 'principle' was meant to apply to CMs, then why did DofE not put it in the section of EYFS specifically written for CMs? Personally, I wouldn't want to start cherry-picking the document for favourable "transferable principles", in case Ofsted start doing the same and transferring less favourable conditions onto CMs which previously applied only to nurseries, etc. It's a whole Pandora's boxful of problems.

In short, a lot of CMs get by on this 'principle' BUT it is entirely a matter of how far one wishes to take a chance. If you do get an inspector who stands on the letter of the regulations, you have no recourse to quote EYFS and say, "ah, but, EYFS says I'm allowed to do this." IOW stick your neck out if you like, but don't complain if your inspector chops your head off. :p

Likewise, the notion of variations being temporary arrangements is not one which appears in EYFS. It came from one of Ofsted's clarification documents which, frankly, clarified nothing and confused much.

As Simoana rightly says, the "overlap" scenario is in dire need of consideration. I see little sense in granting a variation/exception for unlimited hours just because 2 children are siblings, whilst denying a 1/2 hour overlap for unrelated children. The problem is the inability to use common sense. The regulations need to be clear, and that means arbitrary 'hard lines' with regard to times, numbers, etc.

Tbh none of this is helped by the fact that, no matter how many children the regs allowed there'd always be some CMs begging for "just one more." :(