Is it illegal to look after a 4 year old for 3 hours a day without registration?

[Cpgp]

Not at the child's home? I mean, as a CM not a nanny?

[Simona]

Not at the child's home? I mean, as a CM not a nanny?

It is illegal under the EYFS 2012 but not in the revised 2014 because the govt has increased the hours...anything over 3 hrs will require registration

[Cpgp]

So, I have one client only that from September will start school and will require after school care 3-6pm.
If I cancel my registration, will I be doing nothing wrong? As long as I don't work after 6pm and school holidays. Is that right?
If so, what title would I use on my self employment tax return?
Where can I find official info about it?

[Simona]

So, I have one client only that from September will start school and will require after school care 3-6pm.
If I cancel my registration, will I be doing nothing wrong? As long as I don't work after 6pm and school holidays. Is that right?
If so, what title would I use on my self employment tax return?
Where can I find official info about it?

There is no need to cancel your registration...if you do... think carefully how you 'may' need to reapply in future if you want to...via an agency?...none of us can say what can happen?

Registered carers have the advantage of being CRBd, trained in both child protection and First Aid...and being insured
The hours you work are irrelevant as long as you do not care for children for more that 3 hours a day

The new rules are really for those thinking of helping each other...parents and friends or for those who do not wish to become full blown registered CMs

I think that those who care for children without registration do that for a little bit of extra money...would they be self employed and give you a title? I am not sure about that so cannot comment...it depends on whether you earn enough to pay taxes I would have thought?


You can find all the info in the 'More Affordable Childcare' document on the gov.uk website where these changes are laid out....also the EYFs can be of help


https://www.gov.uk/
Good luck

[blue bear]

It is illegal under the EYFS 2012 but not in the revised 2014 because the govt has increased the hours...anything over 3 hrs will require registration

The three hours was a proposal and has not yet been passed into law, nothing in the eyfs states the three hours will apply in September.

[Cpgp]

I am absolutely sure I don't want to be a CM anymore and I will start a new job during school hours. The job requires me to be up to date with police checks, first aid, safeguarding, children's development etc....the only thing I won't have is CM insurance but I have never used mine.
Even if things go wrong, I will not be back to CMinding, I am sure.
The implications of keeping my registration open is insurance and ofsted fees, paperwork and inspections.
Why would I do it for 3 hours a day for one 4 year old?
Even if I don't need to pay any taxes I will have to fill a return, won't I?
Maybe I can call myself babysitter once I'm not registered anymore?

[Simona]

I am absolutely sure I don't want to be a CM anymore and I will start a new job during school hours. The job requires me to be up to date with police checks, first aid, safeguarding, children's development etc....the only thing I won't have is CM insurance but I have never used mine.
Even if things go wrong, I will not be back to CMinding, I am sure.
The implications of keeping my registration open is insurance and ofsted fees, paperwork and inspections.
Why would I do it for 3 hours a day for one 4 year old?
Even if I don't need to pay any taxes I will have to fill a return, won't I?
Maybe I can call myself babysitter once I'm not registered anymore?

You have considered every angle so deregistration will be right for you

Blue bear...I recall the 3 hours being in a consultation
The govt has said they will increase the care to 3 hrs without registration...I believe that comes under Ofsted regulation/registration not legislation
I understand that will become effective from Sept ...my interpretation of course

More info here...especially on page 23 and 34

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/212671/More_Affordable_Childcare.pdf

[k1rstie]

Will you never work more than 3 hours? What about strike days, inset days, snow days, unforeseen events, schools closing early for parents evenings? The list goes on.

[Cpgp]

I will have to have another chat with parents and make sure they need the 3 after school hours only. Will mention the other circumstances.
Thanks

[bunyip]

I'm not 100% sure how HMRC would handle this. I'd tend to err on the side of caution and assume they will continue to treat you as self-employed and keep on requesting you to complete your annual self-assessment. Remember, if they consider you to be self-employed, they may fine you for not doing self-assessment, irrespective of whether you owe any tax. It might be beneficial to keep paying self-employed NI contributions, otherwise your access to benefits and state pension may be severely restricted in future.

A friend of mine went self-employed doing computer systems/consultative work. He then shut down the business for a while, living on an inheritance and life insurance income. HMRC kept on sending him demands to complete self-assessment, which he did pretty much as a nil return. They stopped when he started a part-time job with another firm. He later went self-employed again, and tried to re-register, only for HMRC to inform him he was still registered self-employed from previously. :confused:

The moral of the story. Don't expect HMRC to make sense: it just is what it is. :p

[Cpgp]

My intention is to continue filling self assessment as self employer, the question was about my self employment title as I wouldn't call myself a childminder if not registered. I think calling myself babysitter would be appropriate if I work 15h a week term time.

[Mouse]

My intention is to continue filling self assessment as self employer, the question was about my self employment title as I wouldn't call myself a childminder if not registered. I think calling myself babysitter would be appropriate if I work 15h a week term time.

I would still call myself "childminder", just not "registered childminder" (although I note on this year's tax return there's not room to put 'registered' like I normally do, so this year I am simply a childminder'.)

The legal definition of a childminder is someone who looks after children in the home for reward, which is what you will be doing.

Despite what many people think, you can be a childminder without being registered.

[Simona]

My intention is to continue filling self assessment as self employer, the question was about my self employment title as I wouldn't call myself a childminder if not registered. I think calling myself babysitter would be appropriate if I work 15h a week term time.

You can call yourself a 'childcare provider' and that will cover many roles
if in doubt ring HMRC helpline and I am sure they will advise you...you won't be the only one being self employed and also having a job under PAYE...all HMRC is interested in is you declaring your incomes from any source and paying appropriate taxes if applicable

Good luck

Mouse...a bit puzzled by your statement that people can childmind without being registered?
I thought cms fought hard against unregulated CMs but now it is possible to do for 3 hrs per day...maybe I missed your point

[Mouse]

You can call yourself a 'childcare provider' and that will cover many roles
if in doubt ring HMRC helpline and I am sure they will advise you...you won't be the only one being self employed and also having a job under PAYE...all HMRC is interested in is you declaring your incomes from any source and paying appropriate taxes if applicable

Good luck

Mouse...a bit puzzled by your statement that people can childmind without being registered?
I thought cms fought hard against unregulated CMs but now it is possible to do for 3 hrs per day...maybe I missed your point

The definition of a childminder is:

Childminder
A person providing care for one or more children aged between birth and 18 to whom they are not related for reward in someone’s home – usually their own.

So, by definition, even if you only looked after over 8s, or only looked after children for less than 2 hours a day (currently), you are a childminder.

But, if you do only look after those groups, you do not need to register with Ofsted.

Therefore, you could legitimately be a childminder, but not an Ofsted registered childminder.

[Simona]

The definition of a childminder is:

Childminder
A person providing care for one or more children aged between birth and 18 to whom they are not related for reward in someone’s home – usually their own.

So, by definition, even if you only looked after over 8s, or only looked after children for less than 2 hours a day (currently), you are a childminder.

But, if you do only look after those groups, you do not need to register with Ofsted.

Therefore, you would be a childminder, but not an Ofsted registered childminder.

Got you!!!
So from Sept 2014 anyone looking after children for 3 hours...be parents or grandparents or friends or neighbours...will they call themselves a CM?

[Mouse]

Got you!!!
So from Sept 2014 anyone looking after children for 3 hours...be parents or grandparents or friends or neighbours...will they call themselves a CM?

Grandparents caring only for grandchildren can't be called childminders as the definition is caring for a child 'to whom they are not related'.

I don't know what people will call themselves from Sept 2014. What I am saying is that going by the definition of a childminder and by the 'registration not required' information, it is already possible for someone to be classed as a childminder, but not be registered.

[Simona]

Grandparents caring only for grandchildren can't be called childminders as the definition is caring for a child 'to whom they are not related'.

I don't know what people will call themselves from Sept 2014. What I am saying is that going by the definition of a childminder and by the 'registration not required' information, it is already possible for someone to be classed as a childminder, but not be registered.

I was thinking of grandparents who look after their own grandchildren but also take on others for whose care they get paid...(there are a few).....those are CMs?

My view is that whatever people call themselves 'will' matter .....after years and years of trying to make people understand what a CM is ...and does...arguing about a change to our title or not....all will be lost because anyone wishing to avoid the stress of regulation and the burden of compliance will decide to call themselves a CM and care for children without any of the basic training like child protection and no insurance

I suppose parents will opt for unregulated care because it will be cheaper?
I give credit to PLA for stating the obvious for a long time then

I will be curious to find out how much these unregulated people charge ...and from which angle we will be able to debate the 'high quality and affordable' childcare ?
I wonder what the representing associations will come up with when thousands of carers pop up as CMs...

Very sad that we can take it so lightly...I know the vast majority were against upping the hours from 2 to 3 in the consultation but again we were side lined in favour of political gain...sorry for going on but this gets me.

[Ripeberry]

I thought you couldn't ask for payment?

[rickysmiths]

I am absolutely sure I don't want to be a CM anymore and I will start a new job during school hours. The job requires me to be up to date with police checks, first aid, safeguarding, children's development etc....the only thing I won't have is CM insurance but I have never used mine.
Even if things go wrong, I will not be back to CMinding, I am sure.
The implications of keeping my registration open is insurance and ofsted fees, paperwork and inspections.
Why would I do it for 3 hours a day for one 4 year old?
Even if I don't need to pay any taxes I will have to fill a return, won't I?
Maybe I can call myself babysitter once I'm not registered anymore?

That doesn't mean you may not need to in the future. If something were to go wrong would you be prepared to possibly loose your home over it? I know I would not for 3 hours a day anyway!!

If I were you giving up cm then I certainly would bother with 3 hours a night term time only you would make more in the moth babysitting for others in there homes for odd evenings.

[Mouse]

I thought you couldn't ask for payment?

Yes you can. If you only look after over 8s, or only look after children for up to 2 hours a day you can charge for it & not have to be registered with Ofsted. You would have to registered with the tax office as self employed though.

[Chatterbox Childcare]

If you give up your registration then you will lose the right to accept childcare vouchers and the parents will lose any tax credits or help from the govert.

Why not keep your registration open? Confused as why you wouldn't want to be covered by insurance. If you didn't have it, the parent could still sue you and you could potentially loose everything you have, house, car etc...

[Cpgp]

Can anyone explain why will I loose my house (rented) and a car (I don't have one) if I don't have a CM insurance?

Basically, the parents need me to collect this child from my child's school and look after him from 3-6. That is it.
I don't want to bother with paying for registration, paying for insurance and doing paperwork and planning, observations, whatever.
The child is fine and normal. I look after him since babyhood.

The parents don't use vouchers or claim WTC.
They don't care about Ofsted and paperwork.
And why would they sue me for ?

[rickysmiths]

Can anyone explain why will I loose my house (rented) and a car (I don't have one) if I don't have a CM insurance?

Basically, the parents need me to collect this child from my child's school and look after him from 3-6. That is it.
I don't want to bother with paying for registration, paying for insurance and doing paperwork and planning, observations, whatever.
The child is fine and normal. I look after him since babyhood.

The parents don't use vouchers or claim WTC.
They don't care about Ofsted and paperwork.
And why would they sue me for ?



If the child had a serious accident when they were with you and unfortunately accidents do happen at the least expected times and even to the most angelic children. ?

No insurance would mean they could sue you privately and if you didn't have the cash they could force you to sell any assets you have to get the cash. Not rocket science really and not a risk I would ever take if it could affect my family.

Personally if you are so determined to provide this care I would do it at the child's home at least they would have all their toys etc there.

[Cpgp]

And what happens to nannies and babysitters? Do they have insurance?

I am not willing to go to the child's house. My daughter is older and she needs her things. Child comes to me for 4 years, not changing this to go to his house now. Also, meals are a big deal too as I will not cook at other people's house either.

[rickysmiths]

And what happens to nannies and babysitters? Do they have insurance?

I am not willing to go to the child's house. My daughter is older and she needs her things. Child comes to me for 4 years, not changing this to go to his house now. Also, meals are a big deal too as I will not cook at other people's house either.

Nannies have PLI insurance yes. I think babysitting for an evening in someones house is different. However saying that my teenagers were covered by my Employers PLI by being registered as my Assistants and having done 12 First Aid Course. and completing a Pacey Babysitting form. I am also covered as long as I have a signed Pacey Babysitting form.

Both my children were not allowed to babysit until they had done the full First Aid I would rather err on the side of being covered personally.

It is your choice but you do need to bear in mind what would happen if the worst happened. If you are prepared to take that risk then go ahead. I am actually surprised that if these parents have been with you as a cm for so long that they would be prepared to let their son keep coming if you were not fully registered and insured. Have you told them what the situation is if you de register?

[Ripeberry]

CpgP, you are not doing yourself any favors. Either keep your insurance and registration or be a full time nanny at that parent's house. I'm sure your daughter does not need a whole house of toys just for a few hours work? Confused as to why you are willing to put yourself at risk? Working from parents home is much nicer and you can keep yours tidy :thumbsup:

[Cpgp]

I don't think parents wants someone in their house, they looked for a CM from the start, to send the child to somebody else's house.
I was in the process of registering when they found me and the baby was 2 months old. They were looking for anyone, they knew nothing about Ofsted or anything.
I educated them and started unregistered until my registration came through.
I am just fed up with paperwork, that is all. Don't want to have inspections either.

[shortstuff]

Sorry cpgp but you are asking a bunch of people who do think its worth it to stay registered so im not quite sure what answers you would like? :-)

[Ripeberry]

So you want to be an illegal minder. Basically? Carry on if you want, but don't EVER call yourself a 'Childminder'. We all have a reputation to uphold and that is why we put up with paperwork and the inspections. You can have it all one way.

[rickysmiths]

I don't think parents wants someone in their house, they looked for a CM from the start, to send the child to somebody else's house.
I was in the process of registering when they found me and the baby was 2 months old. They were looking for anyone, they knew nothing about Ofsted or anything.
I educated them and started unregistered until my registration came through.
I am just fed up with paperwork, that is all. Don't want to have inspections either.

Really so you were working as an unregisterd babysitter before you even started!! I'm sorry but you make me laugh. You want to earn the money but you don't want to do the work!!

Simple then go to their house and be their Nanny or Babysitter. You have been told why you would be foolish to do this in your own home so if you go ahead then you will know the risks you take.

Frankly I am not surprised that Childminding didn't suit you if you can't see the pitfalls of doing what you propose to do.

[Mouse]

So you want to be an illegal minder. Basically? Carry on if you want, but don't EVER call yourself a 'Childminder'. We all have a reputation to uphold and that is why we put up with paperwork and the inspections. You can have it all one way.

That is very harsh. If read the relevant fact sheets you will understand that you are currently able to look after children for up to 2 hours a day without being registered, and to receive money for it. From Sept this will be increased to 3 hours. You are also allowed to call yourself a childminder as by definition, a childminder is someone who looks after children who are not related to them for reward in a home, usually their own. Nowhere does it say that you can only call yourself a childminder if you register with Ofsted.

[rickysmiths]

That is very harsh. If read the relevant fact sheets you will understand that you are currently able to look after children for up to 2 hours a day without being registered, and to receive money for it. From Sept this will be increased to 3 hours. You are also allowed to call yourself a childminder as by definition, a childminder is someone who looks after children who are not related to them for reward in a home, usually their own. Nowhere does it say that you can only call yourself a childminder if you register with Ofsted.

That has not been confirmed yet and is not in the 2014 EYFS.

I think it is the general attitude that has upset. At the moment and for the foreseeable future you can not look after a child in your own home for more than 2 hours and be paid. So the OP can not legally do what she is proposing to do.

[Mouse]

That has not been confirmed yet and is not in the 2014 EYFS.

I think it is the general attitude that has upset. At the moment and for the foreseeable future you can not look after a child in your own home for more than 2 hours and be paid. So the OP can not legally do what she is proposing to do.

Fair point, although I don't think the 2 hour rule is mentioned in the 2012 EYFS document, is it?

I think the point I have been trying to make through this thread is that there ARE circumstances where someone could legally look after children, in their own home, for reward and call themselves a childminder.
I agree that the number of hours is up for debate at the moment, and as such is limited to 2 hours, but the general assumption is that this will be increased to 3 hours from Sept (although I suppose anything could change now that Truss & Gove have gone). If the OP checked on the ruling in Sept, she may find she's limited to 2 hours, in which case she couldn't do what she proposes, or she may find it's increased to 3 hours and she can :thumbsup:

[Ripeberry]

Also when things go wrong with people who do this, they are lumped together with the childminders who are registered!

[Cpgp]

To my defense I came here to find out info about doing it legally, didn't want to call myself a childminder anymore and would still fill in my self employment assessments.
It's clear from my posts.

[Simona]

To my defense I came here to find out info about doing it legally, didn't want to call myself a childminder anymore and would still fill in my self employment assessments.
It's clear from my posts.

Yes it was and you have thought of everything...so if you decide to deregister that will be your choice
Some CMs may want to keep up their registration and insurance ...others prefer not to

We obviously differ in opinion and that may be confusing...why not ring Ofsted and ask for advice
Also approach HMRC and tell them what you intend to do...their advice will be the one that matters most
There are plenty of people who have a PAYE job and a self employed one


Good luck

[Cpgp]

Spoke to parents and apparently would be the 3 hours after school and a few extra hours during Christmas and some of the half terms. No Easter/ Summer holidays at all.
Then I could probably do the extra hours at their place. As self employed childcare.
Still thinking if it is worth.

[Jayse74]

I was thinking of grandparents who look after their own grandchildren but also take on others for whose care they get paid...(there are a few).....those are CMs?

My view is that whatever people call themselves 'will' matter .....after years and years of trying to make people understand what a CM is ...and does...arguing about a change to our title or not....all will be lost because anyone wishing to avoid the stress of regulation and the burden of compliance will decide to call themselves a CM and care for children without any of the basic training like child protection and no insurance

I suppose parents will opt for unregulated care because it will be cheaper?
I give credit to PLA for stating the obvious for a long time then

I will be curious to find out how much these unregulated people charge ...and from which angle we will be able to debate the 'high quality and affordable' childcare ?
I wonder what the representing associations will come up with when thousands of carers pop up as CMs...

Very sad that we can take it so lightly...I know the vast majority were against upping the hours from 2 to 3 in the consultation but again we were side lined in favour of political gain...sorry for going on but this gets me.

Exactly what I am thinking all the time!

[bunyip]

Without all the vitriol and defensive attitude towards the word, "childminder", this is what the OP has asked:-


So, I have one client only that from September will start school and will require after school care 3-6pm.
If I cancel my registration, will I be doing nothing wrong? As long as I don't work after 6pm and school holidays. Is that right?
If so, what title would I use on my self employment tax return?
Where can I find official info about it?

Can s/he legally care for 1 or more child outside the parents' home, for reward? Yes, see current regulations and Ofsted publications for details, and keep checking cos the regs look likely to change. (Though I don't quite figure the relevance of the bit about "...after 6pm and school holidays..." tbh. :confused: )

What title should s/he use on his/her HMRC self-assessment form? Whatever HMRC will be accept. They are a law unto themselves, so call and ask them.

Where can s/he find official info about it? Ask Ofsted and HMRC.

Personally I wouldn't want to do it, and I think it is a small but unnecessarily foolhardy risk to go into it without access to insurance. But that's me - and not what the OP asked. It's a bit contrary to call it "illegal" when it is, by Ofsted's definition, perfectly legal. The OP is in fact checking what s/he can do within the law, including paying tax, and by an extension of this logic, it is reasonable to assume s/he does not intend to be making any fraudulent benefit claims either.

We may or may not like it, but it is how things are. Face it, a lot of CMs are just as affronted by the very existence of registered nannies, nurseries and even those parents who "lose us money" by having the temerity to look after their own children. The unregistered childcare market is a fact of life. Parents choose it for many reasons, including low cost and convenience. But remember the cost of a registered CM is largely due to what many would perceive as over-regulation. There are also a lot of parents who just want care, plain and simple, whilst allowing their child to still have something like a childhood. They don't want all the bells and whistles, paperwork, 'educational' aspects, and government agenda, and the only way they can get what they want is through unregistered care. So CMs banging the drum that bit too hard for EYFS, learning, development, education, etc. serves only to promote unregistered childcare. :( Say a big "hi" to the Law of Unintended Consequences.

As for the job title, I guess s/he could call him/herself a childminder, babysitter, child-carer or even a pickled blueberry if she wished. None of those titles have any protected status, just so long as there is no attempt to mislead. Job titles only really have legal protection against their misuse where they carry some intrinsic statutory powers (such as police officer or the military) or belong to the old 'true' professions, (such as the law/clergy/higher education.) The fact that every Tom, Dick and Harriet (CMs included) in any sort of job these days is labouring under the pretentious fallacy that they are in a 'profession' may indeed confuse the matter, but it happens to be utterly irrelevant.

As for the association with the term "childminder" giving registered CMs a bad name, well............... 9 out of 10 people I know who give CMing a bad name are........er...........well......... registered CMs.

The main thing that is not allowed (and the OP shows no intention of doing this) is to use the term "Regisered Childminder". That would probably incur the intervention of Ofsted, Trading Standards and possible the Advertising Standards Authority, as it would be a deliberate misrepresentation, and imply the false expectation of certain standards and parental access to funding, tax credits, etc.

[Simona]

I hope this is a forum where we express our opinions and respect the way we all interpret things...so vitriol is not really appropriate here...no one is being nasty just offering individual support

Is it wrong to want to defend the registered CMs?...hope not...but there is room for people to call themselves what they like within the legislation and regulation...whether they are self employed or otherwise

Are HMRC a law onto themselves?...I don't see it that way...the name CM does not appear anywhere in my tax return as I have chosen a name that encompasses all I do in the profession...perfectly legal...what's in a name?

We have suggested that it is up to the original poster Cpgp to reflect on what is good for her in terms of registration, insurance etc etc and have suggested approaching both Ofsted and HMRC

I hope Cpgp will come to a satisfactory decision :thumbsup: