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*daisychain*
27-06-2014, 12:50 PM
I have two LO's who I've had for two years who are are starting nursery in September . I'm only charging for the hours they are attending , 11:30 till 5pm. My assistant will be collecting them from nursery. I was hoping to fill the morning spaces (fingers and legs crossed ) however I'm now thinking about holidays ... If I did fill morning spaces would I still be able to have the two nursery LO's during the holidays too ? Would it be classed as continuity of care ?? ( I know I still need to stick to the 6 under 8 ) I'm thinking it wouldn't be now and maybe I need to re think and charge for a full day space ?
HELP ! :-)

moggy
27-06-2014, 01:45 PM
I have two LO's who I've had for two years who are are starting nursery in September . I'm only charging for the hours they are attending , 11:30 till 5pm. My assistant will be collecting them from nursery. I was hoping to fill the morning spaces (fingers and legs crossed ) however I'm now thinking about holidays ... If I did fill morning spaces would I still be able to have the two nursery LO's during the holidays too ? Would it be classed as continuity of care ?? ( I know I still need to stick to the 6 under 8 ) I'm thinking it wouldn't be now and maybe I need to re think and charge for a full day space ?
HELP ! :-)

No, you can not have the extra children because the nursery children are not at nursery- it is not an exceptional circumstance, it is something you know about and should plan for.

If parents want 11.30-5pm term time and am or 9am-5pm school-holiday time then you need to keep those spaces all through termtime ready for holiday use. You can charge full fee or 50% as retainer. No way would I be leaving those termtime hours unpaid for.

AliceK
27-06-2014, 01:51 PM
I charge for the time they are at nursery because I can't fill a space between 9am and 11.30 plus they will still need the space in hols / inset days etc. It's pretty normal to charge for it around here.

xx

cathtee
27-06-2014, 04:06 PM
I too charge while they are at nursery as they need the place in the hols and teacher training days

AdeleMarie88
27-06-2014, 04:20 PM
As do I- some parents may not be keen, but it's easier to arrange contracts and finances that way.

I highly doubt you could find someone wanting a couple of hours in the morning,not for long term anyway x

*daisychain*
03-07-2014, 08:23 AM
Well that didn't go well . Parent has now gave notice as I told her it will remain the same all day fee as she pays now :-/ but has asked if I can still her during the holidays , don't think she quite understood when I explained about how many numbers of children I can have , think she thinks I'm trying to out a fast one , oh well , here's hoping I fill this space now in September .

Mouse
03-07-2014, 08:37 AM
I do feel sorry for parents who are constantly being told they will receive up to 15 hours free childcare when their child turns 3, but then find it's the childminder who actually benefits and not them.

But as a childminder I know I can't afford to not charge when a child is at nursery. I have one of my mindees going to morning nursery in Sept. They will be dropped off to me after nursery, so I won't be collecting them. I have told parents that rather than charging my full day rate, I will charge my short day rate. It will only save them £5 a day, but it's better than nothing and means they have a guaranteed space during holidays.

Simona
03-07-2014, 08:43 AM
This is a very tricky point for CMs and we need to reflect on our future especially from Sept 2014

If a child goes to nursery and we charge for the 3 hrs....parents are getting free education but not 'more affordable childcare'
If we don't charge we are unable to fill that space for the 3 hrs...so we lose out unless we can squeeze in another funded child...possible but difficult especially when we need to drop the child at nursery and then pick up taking the other child with us?
An alternative is to charge a retainer for the 3 hours in case of emergency and for keeping the space for holidays

The alternative for parents is to leave the child at school if that school will open 8-6pm and offer 'wrap around care'...they will then get free education and cheaper childcare after the 3 hours

Any thoughts?...or solutions?

caz3007
03-07-2014, 09:04 AM
Mine all go to the school pre school and they only do the morning or afternoon session. I charge a 50% retainer for those that require holiday care, as I can't fill the space.

AliceK
03-07-2014, 09:09 AM
I have always and will always charge for when a child is doing their funded hours at nursery, I can't afford not to it's that simple. It's not my problem that the government keep promising the impossible. When my ds was at nursery doing his funded hours it never crossed my mind as a parent that I wouldn't have to pay his childminder. Parents need to remember they chose to have children and it is their responsibility to pay for them, it's not my responsibility to fund those hours on a FOC basis which then impacts on me and my family.

xxx

bunyip
03-07-2014, 09:47 AM
This is a very tricky point for CMs and we need to reflect on our future especially from Sept 2014

If a child goes to nursery and we charge for the 3 hrs....parents are getting free education but not 'more affordable childcare'
If we don't charge we are unable to fill that space for the 3 hrs...so we lose out unless we can squeeze in another funded child...possible but difficult especially when we need to drop the child at nursery and then pick up taking the other child with us?
An alternative is to charge a retainer for the 3 hours in case of emergency and for keeping the space for holidays

The alternative for parents is to leave the child at school if that school will open 8-6pm and offer 'wrap around care'...they will then get free education and cheaper childcare after the 3 hours

Any thoughts?...or solutions?

IME, there are some families out there looking for a few hours here and there which could potentially fill the gaps whilst other mindees are at preschool/nursery, etc. Maybe not many, but they do exist.

The question is whether we think it's worth our while looking for the work, or doing all the admin associated with lo's who aren't here for many hours a week.

Maybe agencies will provide the answer? If it's purely a matter of matching needs to vacancies, then agencies with a large database of childcarers and potential clients will be well-placed to do so.

Simona
03-07-2014, 10:22 AM
IME, there are some families out there looking for a few hours here and there which could potentially fill the gaps whilst other mindees are at preschool/nursery, etc. Maybe not many, but they do exist.

The question is whether we think it's worth our while looking for the work, or doing all the admin associated with lo's who aren't here for many hours a week.

Maybe agencies will provide the answer? If it's purely a matter of matching needs to vacancies, then agencies with a large database of childcarers and potential clients will be well-placed to do so.

Yes there are families looking at just 3 hrs to draw the funding...as we know parents can demand just the 'entitlement' and no more especially for the vulnerable 2 year olds
so as I think it is possible but in practice there may be an overlap when the 2 children are in our care...one arriving for the 3 hrs while the other is being taken to the nursery and again when one needs picking up from nursery and the other leaving us

The paperwork should diminish according to where the child gets the most funded hours if we work in co-operation and do what is required and not above that.

Agencies...ah! that is another matter altogether...but it is worth looking at what St Bede's Academy will do when it rolls out its agency in September
For the rest we know nothing about agencies...we await news as have for the last 2 years

what I do know and see is that preschools and nurseries are taking children for funded hours and then offering wrap around care service ...that is why I feel we need to look at the future as parents are finding one setting that offers all the services more suitable and possibly more affordable

tulip0803
04-07-2014, 06:47 PM
I have a parent who decided to take pot luck and change the contract to start after nursery three days a week, knowing that I could not guarantee them a place for the mornings in the holidays. I think she thought that either I wold not fill the space in the morning OR that I would willingly go over numbers like her old childminder (not England so no self variations). Unfortunately for her two parents have signed up for the mornings for 2 of the days. Mum will bring at lunch time as she still did not want to pay:rolleyes:

Simona
05-07-2014, 07:03 AM
I have a parent who decided to take pot luck and change the contract to start after nursery three days a week, knowing that I could not guarantee them a place for the mornings in the holidays. I think she thought that either I wold not fill the space in the morning OR that I would willingly go over numbers like her old childminder (not England so no self variations). Unfortunately for her two parents have signed up for the mornings for 2 of the days. Mum will bring at lunch time as she still did not want to pay:rolleyes:

My take on this matter is 'wait and see' what happens when in Sept schools open 8-6pm
Will parents realise they can send their children to school, get the funding with 'no strings attached' and then wraparound care without the need to pay retainers or such like

I don't know how it will work out for CMs but it will be interesting to find out if it will provide parents with 'more affordable childcare' and what the benefits will be for children in an institution 10 hrs per day?

caz3007
05-07-2014, 07:12 AM
My take on this matter is 'wait and see' what happens when in Sept schools open 8-6pm
Will parents realise they can send their children to school, get the funding with 'no strings attached' and then wraparound care without the need to pay retainers or such like

I don't know how it will work out for CMs but it will be interesting to find out if it will provide parents with 'more affordable childcare' and what the benefits will be for children in an institution 10 hrs per day?

Have any of your local schools said they are opening these hours. Ours certainly hasn't and our school nursery which is the one most of my lo's go to, certainly doesn't have the space to offer all day unless they take less children, and its over subscribed as it is.

Rubybubbles
05-07-2014, 07:59 AM
I had always been in the no charge camp

Until the past 2 years as I can offer the funding so retainer fee

But I now think an increased rate for part tine hours may be the way to go as it stops parents saying why am I paying when not using.

I'm moving very soon and still haven't worked out what fee structure I'm going in with!! This is one of the factors funding!!

Simona
05-07-2014, 08:09 AM
Have any of your local schools said they are opening these hours. Ours certainly hasn't and our school nursery which is the one most of my lo's go to, certainly doesn't have the space to offer all day unless they take less children, and its over subscribed as it is.

I am keeping my eyes and ears open to what develops in my area
I know one school is considering extending the after school care to 5 days
I assume each school will do what they can but the message is clear on what Truss is demanding of them...or rather....what she is suggesting parents should demand of their school now she has thrown childcare on the open market!
Interesting times ahead

Parents must ask schools to stay open later, says education minister - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/10905978/Parents-must-ask-schools-to-stay-open-later-says-education-minister.html)

Mummits
05-07-2014, 08:57 AM
I had always been in the no charge camp

Until the past 2 years as I can offer the funding so retainer fee

But I now think an increased rate for part tine hours may be the way to go as it stops parents saying why am I paying when not using.

I'm moving very soon and still haven't worked out what fee structure I'm going in with!! This is one of the factors funding!!

I have not been charging for nursery hours for the past year and won't be repeating the mistake! (In fact I'd have to think twice about doing the nursery run even if I was being paid for the full day). I was somewhat suckered in to it anyway as what I originally agreed to was the child going to a different nursery and finishing at 3;15, then parents changed their minds. I was nevertheless still optimistic about getting another child for the nursery hours slot, but it just didn't happen, partly I'm sure because parents were put off by the prospect of their little one having to do the nursery run. I've also been dismayed by the pick up itself. Unlike the nursery I picked up from before, this one has no orderly queue. They are usually out late (especially if we are standing waiting in the rain or strong sun!) and it is a bit of a scrum to grab a child, which I won't even try to join in with two babies in a buggy (and they never open both doors so I can't get in with a twin buggy), with the result that my little one usually gets out last or close to last. I am counting down the days to the holidays when I can pack this in.

Mummits
05-07-2014, 09:10 AM
I am keeping my eyes and ears open to what develops in my area
I know one school is considering extending the after school care to 5 days
I assume each school will do what they can but the message is clear on what Truss is demanding of them...or rather....what she is suggesting parents should demand of their school now she has thrown childcare on the open market!
Interesting times ahead

Parents must ask schools to stay open later, says education minister - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/10905978/Parents-must-ask-schools-to-stay-open-later-says-education-minister.html)

My local school is now offering before and after school care 5 days a week and holiday club at prices I would not choose to match. I feel very strongly that this is unfair competition as they have free use of all the school premises and resources, and have much lower staff numbers per child.

I have had a number of children come to me over the years who have left because they had not enjoyed the club, generally quieter or shyer children who found it too noisy and boisterous, but others too with mild special needs. Lovely as they were/are, it would be hardly fair for the after school club to take all the "easier" children, leaving only those who are a bit harder to please and require more individual attention, but that is how I see things developing.

bunyip
05-07-2014, 10:35 AM
I had always been in the no charge camp

Until the past 2 years as I can offer the funding so retainer fee

But I now think an increased rate for part tine hours may be the way to go as it stops parents saying why am I paying when not using.

I'm moving very soon and still haven't worked out what fee structure I'm going in with!! This is one of the factors funding!!

I think the 'higher rate' for the hours actually used is the most sensible.

In a sense, CMs each have to find their own best way of doing this and finding what the client will find acceptable. But many parents inevitably interpret "I'm charging you for the place" as "I'm charging you to do nothing" - and I can't think of many businesses in which it's a great idea to keep on doing something that P's off your customer base.

I think it's only a matter of time until the crunch comes and someone offers a more attractive alternative to parents. As Simona suggests, 'crunch time' may coincide with the expansion of agencies or schools/other settings offering more wrap-around hours - maybe not immediately, but how long before a setting manager spots the potential? As Gust's Zen Master said, "we'll see."

I also think the whole 'education' bit and LAs regarding funding as for 'education' tends to muddy the waters and blind us to the rather obvious point. Tbh how many parents say their child is getting 15 hours funded education? Don't they rather say they're getting 15 hours free care? :huh: Despite making all the right noises about 'quality', the vast majority of parents will prioritize 'economy' (or "affordability" if you prefer the buzz-word) and 'convenience' over 'quality' and 'education'. I'm not suggesting parents would tolerate bad care, but would accept reasonable standards of safety, happiness, activities, stimulation for their child where offered at The Right Price.

I'm not saying this is how things should be, but I find it makes far more sense to deal the things in the way the world is, rather than the way we'd like it to be.

hectors house
05-07-2014, 01:09 PM
My parents all know that I do not do Nursery or school runs therefore they choose to send their children to me a couple of whole days and to a Nursery that also offers whole day sessions. I have a minimum of 7 hours a day contract.

teacake2
06-07-2014, 06:44 AM
Just my opinion but if you charge while child is getting free hours at nursery isn, that like charging top up fees really. Child is not getting free education or childcare what ever we want to call it. As I say just my thoughts on a very grey area.
teacake2

alex__17
06-07-2014, 07:19 AM
I have a parent hoping to have their child in preschool from 9-3 2 days a week, shes currently there from 9-12, then just be charged from 3-5.30 by me. While I understand she wants to cut costs, I can't fill the space until 3, and even it I could wouldn't be able to cover holidays as I'd be over numbers, plus I can't afford to do it!
I completely get where the parents are coming from but business wise it doesn't work, and they could always use the free hours with a childminder if they really wanted the 'free education'

AliceK
06-07-2014, 07:27 AM
Just my opinion but if you charge while child is getting free hours at nursery isn, that like charging top up fees really. Child is not getting free education or childcare what ever we want to call it. As I say just my thoughts on a very grey area.
teacake2

It's the provider of the funded hours who can't charge any top up's . As we are not the providers we are just charging because that space is available for the child to use when needed for school hols, inset days, snow days etc etc etc when the nursery is closed (which happens a lot here) If a parent really doesn't want to pay it then they have the right to ask us for a contract which states eg 11.45 - 18.00 but then the space is not available for them when the nursery is closed. In this instance they would pay my higher hourly rate anyway so wouldn't be much better off.

xxxx

Simona
06-07-2014, 07:52 AM
Just my opinion but if you charge while child is getting free hours at nursery isn, that like charging top up fees really. Child is not getting free education or childcare what ever we want to call it. As I say just my thoughts on a very grey area.
teacake2

Very good question...and one that needs a bit of reflection as it involves politics and politicians' meddling in childcare!

the provider cannot charge for anything as the FE has to be free from the point of delivery ...this is DfE requirement but...as you say the parents are being charged one way or another

In other private settings (not schools as they do not deal with payment for the free hours and also get a higher level of funding)... the session has been extended ...possibly by a short time which allows the nursery/preschool to charge for that time

In the case of CMs we need to look at history and how much Truss has done and how much she missed!!
Before her intervention only Accredited CMs in a Network were able to do the funding ...so parents chose preschools/nurseries to take advantage of the subsidised hours because those CMs were very few
Horrible system that was and very discriminatory to the rest of CMs...but that is another matter!

Truss has changed that by allowing all Good/outstanding CMs (or so she thinks because she has not looked at how LAs dictate the rules/conditions)..... to deliver funding BUT...parents are still sending their children to preschool/nursery and the CMs left to fill impossible hours and lose money

Parents choose another setting to deliver the Free Education while the CM may be herself able to offer the funding...this is because parents believe children need larger groups to 'get ready for school' or some other reason
Once the child goes to school they probably need a CM again for school pick up!!!!

That is the reason behind this and parents are sometimes being charged by the CM while they are accessing the free funding...or subsidy...somewhere else

So the politicians have not solved the problem and parents are not saving but the govt will spin this and say that their policies are achieving 'more affordable childcare'.....and Truss will be hailed a hero and rewarded with a dept Portfolio at the next imminent reshuffle! :thumbsup:

Simona
06-07-2014, 07:57 AM
It's the provider of the funded hours who can't charge any top up's . As we are not the providers we are just charging because that space is available for the child to use when needed for school hols, inset days, snow days etc etc etc when the nursery is closed (which happens a lot here) If a parent really doesn't want to pay it then they have the right to ask us for a contract which states eg 11.45 - 18.00 but then the space is not available for them when the nursery is closed. In this instance they would pay my higher hourly rate anyway so wouldn't be much better off.

xxxx

Other PVI providers are not charging 'Top Up fees' ...that is actually against the LAs Code of Practice or Conditions of Funding and against DfE requirements....but they have a system that allows them to extend their session...by a very short time.... and get more than the 3 hours and extra money

It is worth CMs looking at how they do it and how they view the 'funded hours'...it is also worth CMs engaging with other settings and learn from them :thumbsup:

nicjelley
06-07-2014, 12:15 PM
I have 2 boys at nursery in a morning , I also charge as you cant fill the space as they will need it in holidays .....my parents are brill tho when I explained this they both said theyd never expect not to pay so I guess im very lucky :)

bunyip
07-07-2014, 01:46 PM
Very good question...and one that needs a bit of reflection as it involves politics and politicians' meddling in childcare!


I hate to state the obvious, but I'll do it anyway.

Regulation is, by definition, "...politics and politicians meddling in childcare."

So, if you don't want the meddling, then what you really want is deregulation of the childcare industry. Which is exactly what unregistered/illegal minders (choose your terminology according to preference) would be arguing for - if they ever crawled out from under their stones to argue anything. :(

(The other thing I hate is apostrophe abuse. :rolleyes: )

Simona
07-07-2014, 09:00 PM
I hate to state the obvious, but I'll do it anyway.

Regulation is, by definition, "...politics and politicians meddling in childcare."

So, if you don't want the meddling, then what you really want is deregulation of the childcare industry. Which is exactly what unregistered/illegal minders (choose your terminology according to preference) would be arguing for - if they ever crawled out from under their stones to argue anything. :(

(The other thing I hate is apostrophe abuse. :rolleyes: )

It looks to me like the unregistered CMs do not have to come out and argue anything as the meddling politicians have granted their wish...up to 3 hours of care without any form of regulation or inspection...

it would be great to research how many will provide wraparound care at little cost and, therefore, achieve the 'more affordable childcare Truss has thrown parents' way !

bunyip
08-07-2014, 07:10 PM
It looks to me like the unregistered CMs do not have to come out and argue anything as the meddling politicians have granted their wish...up to 3 hours of care without any form of regulation or inspection...

it would be great to research how many will provide wraparound care at little cost and, therefore, achieve the 'more affordable childcare Truss has thrown parents' way !

You know, what I really hate about that?

As you say, unregulated childcarers can provide up to 3 hours per day from September. But a CRB-checked assistant with paediatric first aid qualification, passed 'suitable' by Ofsted and following the policies, etc. and insurance cover of a registered CM can still provide on 2 hours sole care per day.

I want to start punching Truss's smarmy face on the promise that I'll stop only when she can explain the logic........:angry:

Anacrusis
10-07-2014, 07:33 PM
Daisychain, can you register to provide the funded hours? Then the child could keep attending the same hours as before and Mum would get her funded hours.

*daisychain*
12-07-2014, 06:39 AM
I have suggested that to her but she wants her to go the nursery. She has gone to the lengths of getting the child christened soon and has started attending church to get her in this school ! :-/

Simona
12-07-2014, 06:56 AM
I have suggested that to her but she wants her to go the nursery. She has gone to the lengths of getting the child christened soon and has started attending church to get her in this school ! :-/

The reason for that maybe the parent feels her child needs some experience of larger groups and therefore be ready for school in that way?

My experience is that when a cm draws funding the parents still mix the CM with a larger group experience

The other issue of 'starting to go to church ' to be accepted in the Church school is something I have never understood...

parents who I believe are religious never go to church but suddenly appear a few months before the vicar/priest is due to sign their church attendance to get a school place????
After that they do not go to church again?

Bunyip...if you have an issue with Truss' policies better hurry up to tell her

lots of speculation that she is going to be promoted next week in the Cabinet reshuffle....one particular speculation is that she may be elevated Minister for Universities

I rest my case!!!

tori4
12-07-2014, 07:23 AM
Haven't read all post so sorry if this has been said

But why aren't

1) parents using funded hours with CMs ? As all CM can offer 3 yr old funding the restrictions are only on 2yr old, I thought

2) why dnot CM suggest parents use funded hours for full day at pre-sch - rather then just morning session. Then parents find childcare to cover the other days. Ok this doesn't solve holidays but solves having to pay for CM for non attending spaces.

I do not charge whilst at nursery the children go to nursery on other days - although I do do a couple morning drop offs 8-9 and replace that child with 9am morning pick up for the rest of the day.

I have some children who come 8-5 some that come 9-2.30 and even got a 1yr old that comes 2.30-5.30 cause that's the only space I had free n they really wanted a space but I and the parents were flexible ( parent studying) - all EY too. I am full everyday have 4 on some days and only 1 after sch.

I think the hours are there however we need to be flexible - I am flexible and I d'not/wouldn't charge for none attending hours and I'm full so IMO this works .

I fear we are doing ourselves out of jobs and very young children will end up being at nursery/sch/academy from 8-6 Monday to Friday what a horrible thought !

Simona
12-07-2014, 07:38 AM
Haven't read all post so sorry if this has been said

But why aren't

1) parents using funded hours with CMs ? As all CM can offer 3 yr old funding the restrictions are only on 2yr old, I thought

2) why dnot CM suggest parents use funded hours for full day at pre-sch - rather then just morning session. Then parents find childcare to cover the other days. Ok this doesn't solve holidays but solves having to pay for CM for non attending spaces.

I do not charge whilst at nursery the children go to nursery on other days - although I do do a couple morning drop offs 8-9 and replace that child with 9am morning pick up for the rest of the day.

I have some children who come 8-5 some that come 9-2.30 and even got a 1yr old that comes 2.30-5.30 cause that's the only space I had free n they really wanted a space but I and the parents were flexible ( parent studying) - all EY too. I am full everyday have 4 on some days and only 1 after sch.

I think the hours are there however we need to be flexible - I am flexible and I d'not/wouldn't charge for none attending hours and I'm full so IMO this works .

I fear we are doing ourselves out of jobs and very young children will end up being at nursery/sch/academy from 8-6 Monday to Friday what a horrible thought !

I agree with you and share your words of warning especially now childcare has officially become an 'open market'

One of the reasons is that both preschools and nurseries have rather strict rules on taking up the place for the funded hours...find out and compare...
It is worth communicating with another setting where they share the care with us and we will realise how cms go out of their way to accommodate and bend over backwards

Yes we need to be flexible and the funded hours can be delivered between 7am and 7 pm...but preschools do not do that
so they have adapted their offer

With regards to charging while at another setting ...this is unique to CMs and does not involve other settings doing the same...we lose money unless we can fill those 3 hours with another child but although easy in theory it is not in practice

Can we imagine a preschool charging while their child is with a cm?

This issue is a longstanding one...in the past we got away with charging, whether we can continue to do so I am not sure so we must find other ways and there are a few which spring to mind !!

bunyip
12-07-2014, 10:28 AM
The reason for that maybe the parent feels her child needs some experience of larger groups and therefore be ready for school in that way?

My experience is that when a cm draws funding the parents still mix the CM with a larger group experience

The other issue of 'starting to go to church ' to be accepted in the Church school is something I have never understood...

parents who I believe are religious never go to church but suddenly appear a few months before the vicar/priest is due to sign their church attendance to get a school place????
After that they do not go to church again?

Bunyip...if you have an issue with Truss' policies better hurry up to tell her

lots of speculation that she is going to be promoted next week in the Cabinet reshuffle....one particular speculation is that she may be elevated Minister for Universities

I rest my case!!!

The church thing I can understand, even if I can't agree with it. Some people will do anything to get a child into whatever they perceive to be "a good school". I'm not sure that manipulating a church is any worse than manipulating the housing market and making one postcode's housing stock that bit more unaffordable than the rest. Makes a change from being manipulated by the church. Sure, it's hypocritcal: so they'll probably feel at home there. :p

As for having "an issue with Truss" I have several. And, yes, she does have the list. :mad: