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Snowwhite
31-05-2014, 09:54 PM
My post is on behalf of my childminder friend,as i didn't quite know the right thing to say when she asked me. She has had an enquiry for someone needing fulltime childcare 5 days a wk,to start really soon, and has said via a phonecall with the mum that a price was discussed and that she would take her daily fee down in price by £3 daily as the parent didn't seem to take the orginal price very well! My friend is really in need of the business and would rather undercut herself slightly in order to gain a fulltime child.(parent doesn't get tax credits or childcare vouchers,or she would have stuck to her usual daily fee)

Parent may well occassionally need a 7am start and that is 45 mins earlier than her usual opening time.My friend really doesn't want to start work at that time,& the parent needs a 6pm finish,but like i have explained,she's in need of the business.Should she charge extra for that occasional 7am start (or even if it turns out to be 7.30) or should she just stick to the lower priced fee she discussed over the phone?

If extra then by how much? She wouldn't want to put the mum off but at same time doesn't want to work for crapy money! The mum wants childcare for before and after school age child aswell,or it may just be after school.Not sure yet

Normal time for drop off may be 8am or 8.15 ?if 7am start is not needed.
Friend said her own family are often still asleep at 7am,and she is,but up not long after,but again its kind of all about not turning business away,and friends husband said if a 7am start is what gets your business going again then do it! (yes but for a crapy amount or not!Even though it'll be a decent wage over a month)
Friend hasn't yet told parent that she's to provide lunch and playgroup fees! (they are always cheap though,well playcentres aren't always but she only ocassionally goes to playcentres) Mum used to have a Nanny (foreign) and paid her quite a cheap wage by the sound of it. My friend is very experienced and does lots with the children and has good feedback from current parents.Friend said the mum does seem very nice
Thanks

chris goodyear
31-05-2014, 11:22 PM
I don't like to start before 8.00a.m. but sometimes needs - must! As it's only occasionally I would go for it but I would charge extra and I charge double my normal rate for before 8.00 a.m. never had a parent say they won't pay that. If this parent is happy with your friend I'm sure a little extra for her inconvenience would be acceptable. I even got used to an early start when I had to! As to her family being in bed at that time she will just have to tell mum and children to be quiet although I had a very loud mum in the mornings and her children used to tell her to be quiet as my children were still asleep so work on them!!

loocyloo
01-06-2014, 07:22 AM
I would offer a set hourly or daily fee for hours between 8 am and 6 pm. If care is required before or after those hours then an hourly fee of time and a half/double is charged plus these extra hours MUST be booked in advance. I would also say that the discount is only available for full time care/ children attending for 40 hrs or more ( or whatever your friend chooses ) so that mum doesn't cut the hours and your friend is stuck with a lower than usual rate.

I am intrigued that your friend had lowered her fee because parent doesn't get tax credits ( not all companies do vouchers ) as this would indicate that parent/family earn a higher income. However that is not for us/me to judge and I would consider offering a discount on the week for a full time child plus school sibling. Please encourage your friend not to offer too much of a discount that she resents working.
I think your friend needs to write down discounted hourly/daily fee for full timer, normal fee for school child and fees for extra hours for both children plus fees for playgroups. And makes sure she tells mum about providing meals.

Sorry ... feel I rambled a bit there.
Good luck to your friend x

Snowwhite
01-06-2014, 07:43 AM
Thanks both.Yes my thoughts were that the parent/family must earn a decent wage if they don't get tax credits. I will pass on all the info.x

bunyip
01-06-2014, 10:33 AM
My post is on behalf of my childminder friend,as i didn't quite know the right thing to say when she asked me. She has had an enquiry for someone needing fulltime childcare 5 days a wk,to start really soon, and has said via a phonecall with the mum that a price was discussed and that she would take her daily fee down in price by £3 daily as the parent didn't seem to take the orginal price very well! My friend is really in need of the business and would rather undercut herself slightly in order to gain a fulltime child.(parent doesn't get tax credits or childcare vouchers,or she would have stuck to her usual daily fee)

Parent may well occassionally need a 7am start and that is 45 mins earlier than her usual opening time.My friend really doesn't want to start work at that time,& the parent needs a 6pm finish,but like i have explained,she's in need of the business. Should she charge extra for that occasional 7am start (or even if it turns out to be 7.30) or should she just stick to the lower priced fee she discussed over the phone?

If extra then by how much? She wouldn't want to put the mum off but at same time doesn't want to work for crapy money! The mum wants childcare for before and after school age child aswell,or it may just be after school.Not sure yet

Normal time for drop off may be 8am or 8.15 ?if 7am start is not needed.
Friend said her own family are often still asleep at 7am,and she is,but up not long after,but again its kind of all about not turning business away,and friends husband said if a 7am start is what gets your business going again then do it! (yes but for a crapy amount or not!Even though it'll be a decent wage over a month)
Friend hasn't yet told parent that she's to provide lunch and playgroup fees! (they are always cheap though,well playcentres aren't always but she only ocassionally goes to playcentres) Mum used to have a Nanny (foreign) and paid her quite a cheap wage by the sound of it. My friend is very experienced and does lots with the children and has good feedback from current parents.Friend said the mum does seem very nice
Thanks

Impossible for me recommend £figures for someone else's business without knowing what the CM's expenses and profit expectations are in order to give herself an acceptable income. Ultimately, it's about what both the CM and client can agree to as mutually acceptable. A few thoughts, though.

The family's income isn't necessarily a good one, just cos they don't get tax credits. TCs have become rather complicated in terms of thresholds for hours worked as well as wages earned. Example: IIRC a recent(ish) Budget created a "TC-trap" where a family might earn less than £17k but lose £1000s in previous TC entitlement if the parents worked between 16 and 24 hours weekly. All quite bizarre.

In this case, I'd be more worried by the parents' track record on employing a 'cheap' nanny. Sounds rather like they were prepared to take advantage of the nanny's lack of understanding of her (?) employment rights and they are constantly seeking childcare on the cheap, legally or otherwise. They might be fine, but I hear distant warning bells. What are they going to be like paying their invoices? Will they think they've won the argument over fees, and so think the CM is a pushover who can be subjected to more demands and pressures over time? Will they sign up, but keep looking for a cheaper option? Maybe they think a registered CM will do as a temporary option until they can track down a cheaper unregistered person (we're easier to find cos we can advertise where unregistered minders cannot. :huh:)

I think the CM needs to ask herself what she's prepared to accept in order to get the business rolling. There will be swings and roundabouts. OK it gets things going. No offence, but does she want to risk gaining the reputation of being the district's 'bargain basement CM'? What happens when other clients come her way? Will she charge them more or feel she has to make the same offer out of some sense of 'equality'? If later clients are prepared to pay a more realistic price, will she feel able to tell this mum that the fee is to increase? Will she feel able to give notice to this mum to make way for a new client whose prepared to pay her higher rate, or will the CM feel obliged and tied to the client and child? She needs to answer these questions for herself and come up with answers that leave her happy. I would not recommend starting any arrangement if it appears doomed to lead to unhappiness and resentment.

Regarding the 7am starts, this boils down to the CM's mindset. Is the extra money going to make her happy with the earlier starts? This is just me personally, but I tend to take the view that I set my chosen hours and stick with them. I don't sell my family/leisure/sleep time for a higher price: I either do it or don't do it. Some people are different and can come to terms with the compromise of working 'unsociable hours' at a higher fee and are content. All too often, I see CMs who do this as a bad compromise: ie. they do it, but it still rankles and they resent it like h3ll, and I don't think that does any good to anyone. :(

Kiddleywinks
01-06-2014, 10:58 AM
To your friend I would say, there's being flexible and there's being flexible when you know you don't really want to do it.
The latter will cause your friend unnecessary stress and grief, as Bunyip says, will the fact that a lower rate has been 'negotiated' give parents the perceived right to dictate future ways of doing things.
All parents are nice initially, so the fact that someone seems nice on a telephone is not a clear indication of a persons true self

At the end of the day your friend has to decide what is and what isn't acceptable to them.
I had a 6am start, it wasn't a problem, it was outside of my main chargeable hours, so I charged an enhanced rate and that was fine for parents and myself. If parents hadn't been happy about it then I wouldn't have started so early.
I had an enquiry for 5 days a week, but one weekend in 3 was needed. I had to turn it down because at the time I wasn't prepared to work weekends so it wasn't worth doing it as I know I'd have resented doing it and that wouldn't have been fair on the parents.

It's too easy when starting out to sell your soul and agree to anything just to get the work, but it really isn't worth it long term, and that's what we're here for - the long term :thumbsup:

tigwig
01-06-2014, 06:10 PM
If it were me I would defo give a discount for a ft place but would have to be 100% happy with the amount and not be pressured into a specific amount by a parent.
I would have to carefully consider whether I would be happy offering early starts. Not something I'm keen on but that's me! I would advise charging extra for them.
Also your friend needs to make sure the contract and all her terms and conditions are clear from the beginning etc to avoid any confusion over what's included and what isn't.

Snowwhite
01-06-2014, 09:08 PM
Thanks all.Has certainly given my friend something to think about! She did say that the mum didn't seem very happy to pay a bit extra for outside of working hours,and didn't see why when she would be paying a daily fee! (at a reduced rate!) My friend had to explain why the extra charge as quite a bit outside working hours.She seemed to accept it then but not until after quite a while explaining! My friend seems to get all the difficult parents enquiring! A while ago i had a parent that was more than happy to pay me a bit extra outside my working hrs as she was grateful i could do it and be flexible.

bunyip
02-06-2014, 07:35 AM
Thanks all.Has certainly given my friend something to think about! She did say that the mum didn't seem very happy to pay a bit extra for outside of working hours,and didn't see why when she would be paying a daily fee! (at a reduced rate!) My friend had to explain why the extra charge as quite a bit outside working hours.She seemed to accept it then but not until after quite a while explaining! My friend seems to get all the difficult parents enquiring! A while ago i had a parent that was more than happy to pay me a bit extra outside my working hrs as she was grateful i could do it and be flexible.

OMG, what does she want from her poor CM? :eek:

This is one of the problems with using a "day rate". Some parents seem to think it covers 24 hour care and they're doing their CM a favour if they pick the lo up before The Sandman comes to call with his magic Sleepydust. :p

Tigwig is absolutely right. Your friend is going to have to be uber-clear about the Ts&Cs, as I can see this mum having a lot of false expectations if it isn't spelled out word for word.

Always one of the pitfalls when signing new clients: we're told to be 'positive' to attract business, but really need to take care parents don't go home thinking we just promised them the world.

rickysmiths
02-06-2014, 08:58 AM
Thanks all.Has certainly given my friend something to think about! She did say that the mum didn't seem very happy to pay a bit extra for outside of working hours,and didn't see why when she would be paying a daily fee! (at a reduced rate!) My friend had to explain why the extra charge as quite a bit outside working hours.She seemed to accept it then but not until after quite a while explaining! My friend seems to get all the difficult parents enquiring! A while ago i had a parent that was more than happy to pay me a bit extra outside my working hrs as she was grateful i could do it and be flexible.

This is why I have never done a 'Daily Rate'. Each parent signs a Contract for the hours they need and I am prepared to except. They then pay my hourly rate (no discounts even for full time) for those hours.

I then detail on my contract and go through it with the parents what the hourly rate is for hours outside the Contracted hours and for Bank Holidays if they are used or not used.

I must say I have had a few parents who I took on when I had a slow period, sign a contract and then reduce hours or days before they started or soon after starting. They were waiting for Nursery places!!!

I reviewed my Fees and Payments Policy.

I still charge a 4 weeks fees Deposit which I keep until the end of the Contract and it is used to cover the 4 weeks Notice period

If hours are reduced or days reduced in the first six months of the Contract they loose that % of the Deposit if they leave within the first six months of the Contract including the 4 weeks settling in they loose the whole Deposit. After the 4 weeks settling in the 4 weeks Notice period would then need to be paid if they left within 6 months. Now this may seem very harsh but I haven't had anyone muck me around since I introduced this Policy. I haven't had days or hours substantially reduced before the Contract starts or soon after just the normal small adjustments that we always get because of change of jobs or location or both. I may have lost parents who have read this when here for an interview but then I don't want the ones who are going to mess around all the time.

I went through a very bad patch 3 years ago and really needed to fill vacancies. I made some bad judgements with regard to the families I took on, as a result and I ended up with 2 what turned out to be malicious complaints made against me and I had in 20 years never had a Complaint and I had 2 in 3 months! I was messed around, parents did everything they could to not pay, I felt undervalued for the first time in my career. Changing the Fees Policy was the best thing I ever did. It shows I am professional and won't be messes about when it comes to money (I also have a late collection fee £60ph and a late payment fee of £5per day) The late fees are rarely every used though I did use them on a parent last week who for the third time thought it was Ok to pay me late and was furious when I contacted her to remind her to add £20 to the bill!

I never discount my rate ever, even if I need business. I have worked out a rate that I think I am worth, that I need to run my business and and make a modest living for me and my family.

I certainly would not reduce the fee just because a parent said they couldn't get Tax Credits or Childcare Vouchers. By talking to me 4 parents in the last 4 years have got their Companies to set up Childcare Vouchers, one has started just this month. If a parent says their Company doesn't do Vouchers I get them to question why and encourage their Company to set up the scheme and this has included parents who run their own small company doing it for themselves! Doing this saves the parent up to £20 a week each and there is no way I am going to personally subsidize a parents fees to this extent! I subsidize them all though my taxes anyway!

OP I advise your friend to write a clear tough Fees and Payments Policy list it on the contract and mark that they have read, accept and have received a copy of the Policy.

Take a four weeks fees Deposit when they sign the Contract

Make all fees and payments very clear on the Contract including the extra charges for the earlier start and make clear once the early morning is booked it is paid for and the fee is not returnable if they then come later.

I must confess the early mornings have always been a part of my service. They come and go but 7-7.30 has been fairly typical all my 20 years currently I have a child left at 6.30 am 4 mornings a week. Equally I have had my share of 7-8pm evening though less because I prefer to finish by 6pm and when my children were little I finished by 5-5.30pm. Currently I am usually finished by 5.30 to 5.45pm.

I think it is important to keep to the hours you need as a family or you will resent working if you don't. Sometimes it is hard because as Kiddleywinks said, you have to turn down work but I have found over the years it has evened out. 3yrs ago I started taking on a lot of part timers to fill in the time and gain the income I wanted, (I had lost 3 full timers in 3 months all of whom I had had for 4.5 yrs). I also did do some weekends and babysitting to make ends meet which I hated! and I had lots of children come and go. I have gradually taken on a full time, two who make up a full time place, a 4 day a week and a before and after school. I now have a settled group of children and parents and it was worth the comings and goings to get where I am.

Snowwhite
02-06-2014, 03:54 PM
Some great advice there and not just for my friend but for me aswell! Thanks