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View Full Version : Preparing children for school with 'Structured Learning'



EmmaReed84
03-04-2014, 05:19 AM
I have just been watching BBC Breakfast, when they did a piece about how Childminders and Nurseries should be teaching children letters and words, before they start school and that we are failing children by not doing this.

Now don't get me wrong, I do talk about letters, words, numbers etc with children, but not in a 'structured' way.

Is is just me, or are little children, not allowed to be little children any more? I mean, they are not even 5 years old for heaven's sake! I absolutely hate all this, feels like there is so much pressure for children to reach goals, by certain age, and if they don't it is the childcare system who is failing them.

I am slowing losing my love for Childminding, it no longer seems to be about the 'children' but more about targets!

EmmaReed84
03-04-2014, 05:29 AM
"He will add: "What children facing serious disadvantage need is high-quality, early education from the age of two, delivered by skilled practitioners with degrees in a setting that parents can recognise and access easily. These already exist. They are called schools." "

Well... seems us "unskilled" practitioners, just do not cut the grade! Do these people actually live on this planet???

MessybutHappy
03-04-2014, 06:22 AM
The story was just on again, the guest said that children need to be taught how to learn, and they need space to run and to play...the BBC presenters asked some really clever questions, it all made sense, question is whether we'll still be able to do what most of us know we do well which is foster the characteristics of effective learning, or whether the failings of a few will mean we're all more and more tightly managed. I get that some children aren't being given the best start, I get that some children hear 1 million fewer words than others, but surely the focus should be on helping them, not changing something which is working across huge areas of the country.
Ah well, back to the coal face!!!

hectors house
03-04-2014, 07:03 AM
My daughters went to school knowing how to write their name and that was probably about it - my eldest daughter has just completed her Masters Degree so not knowing anything more than how to write her name hasn't prevented her from reaching her full potential. We should be moving towards the Scandanavian way of children going to Kindergarten until they start school at 6 - with play based learning, I thought this was the way we were heading with children learning through play, but the Government seem to have done yet another U turn!

tess1981
03-04-2014, 07:21 AM
In our local primary school we are asked not to teach children how to read etc before school as they learn the phonics alphabet and most parents were not getting the letter sound correct. We will soon be teaching them different languages and stuff while they are in the womb.
Cm'S really are getting a slating lately.

cherry
03-04-2014, 07:24 AM
After hearing this on the news I really feel like crying and giving this wonderful job up, I have been childminding for 18 years and love it but Ofsted are making me feel like I'm a rubbish childminder.

My parents think I do a wonderful job so why do I have to keep proving myself to Ofsted. I know when we play we talk about colours, we count and we socialise with others. Surely that's how we teach children not testing them when they're 2

Let children be children, they have years ahead of themselves to learn and sit still in a classroom, my son is 20 and at Uni, he has another 2 years to go before he looks for a job.

Surely we should let children enjoy their younger years.

Oh yes, and what about having a go at parents not getting THEIR children ready for school

hectors house
03-04-2014, 07:26 AM
In our local primary school we are asked not to teach children how to read etc before school as they learn the phonics alphabet and most parents were not getting the letter sound correct. We will soon be teaching them different languages and stuff while they are in the womb.
Cm'S really are getting a slating lately.

One of my 4 year old mindees can sit and write his name and likes watching Jolly Phonics on utube but neither of things are following HIS interest which is being an explorer - I only have him one day a week but we spend that day mostly out in the woods - he can identify and name about 20 different plants and trees - mostly taught to him by me as most parents admit that they can't tell the difference between a daisy and a dandelion.

loocyloo
03-04-2014, 07:34 AM
One of my 4 year old mindees can sit and write his name and likes watching Jolly Phonics on utube but neither of things are following HIS interest which is being an explorer - I only have him one day a week but we spend that day mostly out in the woods - he can identify and name about 20 different plants and trees - mostly taught to him by me as most parents admit that they can't tell the difference between a daisy and a dandelion.

Likewise. I have 3 mindees starting school in sept. 2 can write their name and recognise/write most of the alphabet, count and recognise numbers to 20 and in fact count far beyond. They are very articulate. However both also love to be out and about playing in the woods. My 3rd mindee only comes 1 day a week. ..The other 4 are spent at a very academic school nursery ... LO can recognise name and write first letter. Can count and does recognise numerals to 5 but other than that is totally un interested and just wants to construct paint and play outside.

bunyip
03-04-2014, 07:52 AM
I got angry the moment the sharp-suited BBC Breakfast presenter, Charlie 'No Fit' Stayt, opened his thick barman's mouth and declared, "When parents leave their child with a nursery or CM, they want to know they will be cared for and taught the things they need to be ready for school" (I'm paraphrasing, but that was pretty much it.)

Given the media's love of 'free speech' and the government's passion for 'choice', do parents really have to be constantly told what they want like this? Does anybody believe they want their children to be schooled from the womb like this? No. But if you keep saying it, parents start acting like it from a mixture of parental angst and guilt that their child will fall behind if they're not shoved into this infernal system of hot-housing them through the University of Toddlerdom, when all they really want is to be cared for and given the chance to have a childhood. :mad:

I also hate the way we get sucked into it all. We can object as much as we like, but if we don't toe the line, then we're seen as part of the problem and we're "failing the children". And don't we just get drawn into it oh so easily by the lure of wanting to be seen as "Early Years Professionals" ? :panic:

Sadly, we are being led by the nose ever farther away from what parents (our paying clients) actually want, and what children actually need. Maybe this is why I'm never offended by the "glorified babysitter" comments. I'd far rather be that than the person who forces children to abandon their childhood to enter the rat race the moment they can walk. :mad:

rickysmiths
03-04-2014, 08:13 AM
Did any of you see the interview with Gill Jones EY from Ofsted?

She talked sense and was at the meeting last week with Truss and Truss effectively blanked he! She spoke a lot of sense and said it was the under privileged 2year olds they were most concerned about and needed to get into high quality care which were childminders and nurseries. She said they needed to play with playdough, get outside and do all the things children need to do and not sit at desks.

bunyip
03-04-2014, 08:24 AM
And another thing..........

The TV piece kept banging on about children in 'disadvantaged' areas being least likely to achieve. Now it rather assumed this is entirely due to those children having cr4p nurseries and cr4p CMs, without presenting any evidence to support that assumption. Although I guess that's some sort of progress from the usual assumption that they're genetically disposed to failure on account of their parents being morally-repugnant wastrels who deserve nothing out of life if they can't be bothered to go to a good school, but at least we need someone to do the cleaning and sweep the streets/work the mines, cotton mills, etc. You know, the good ol' Victorian values which coupled with centuries of slavery to make Britain Great. :angry:

I mean, is it just possible that the nurseries/CMs are doing a perfectly good job but those disadvantaged children aren't coming into contact with them? Why on Earth should they when the failure of successive UK regimes to provide a working economy means their parents have no jobs and no hope of gaining work - so why send the child out when they can be cared for at home?

Maybe it's simpler than that. Maybe these children are already written off by a system that lets them be disadvantaged and live in poverty, because it's geared up towards the super-rich classes who obviously deserve their wealth on account of: having rich parents; gambling with other people's money; doing :censored:-all whilst other people work for them; being able to sing for 3 minutes; being able to kick/hit/catch a ball or run round in circles rather well.............

Priorities, eh.....? :(

Simona
03-04-2014, 08:44 AM
Did any of you see the interview with Gill Jones EY from Ofsted?

She talked sense and was at the meeting last week with Truss and Truss effectively blanked he! She spoke a lot of sense and said it was the under privileged 2year olds they were most concerned about and needed to get into high quality care which were childminders and nurseries. She said they needed to play with playdough, get outside and do all the things children need to do and not sit at desks.

I am afraid that Gill Jones has probably visited very few settings where this is everyday good practice

We know there is poor practice out there so it would be better to address that and not make sweeping statements about EY in general and those who, against all the odds, try their very best
No one denies that some need to improve but until HMCI is able to engage and listen with us his report will do nothing
He should stop the DfE from cutting funding and removing support from those who need it most

To be told that 'the least able should not teach the most vulnerable' by Gill Jones is not just offensive but insulting...
if some cms are not delivering good quality care why exclude them from being qualified at Level 3? why take away LA support? why abandon independent cms to fend for themselves?


Judging by the reaction this morning on twitter we are all enraged but what will words do?
This has got nothing to do with education...this is politics at its very worst....this is a drive to put children in schools to save money and lower cost of childcare
we now know who is driving all the reforms in EY and EYFS...not the DfE but HMCI himself...he should put his own house in order
Oh and lets not forget the general election!!.

Daisy1956
03-04-2014, 09:03 AM
Why is it assumed that just because parents are unemployed children are not achieving their potential. I have minded children from single parent and unemployed families, they were just were the should be on the early outcomes, valued and happy . I wish people wouldn't judge by income.

loocyloo
03-04-2014, 09:48 AM
I emailed Jeremy vine at radio 2 earlier. Maybe they will cover it.

Simona
03-04-2014, 09:56 AM
Here is the Ofsted report...you will clearly see what the agenda is...Ofsted driving policy rather that regulate the provision
Schools are better, pupil premium to go to schools, 2 year olds will do better in schools and yet...78% of providers are now good/outstanding...childcare system is a mess etc etc etc

Ofsted | Ofsted Early Years Annual Report 2012/13 (http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/earlyyearsannualreport1213)

cookiesncream
03-04-2014, 11:32 AM
Why do Nuseries and Childminders always get lumped together in the same headlines? There is a world of difference.

I heard this on Five Live this morning that we were being criticized again this time for children starting school not being able to speak. The lady talking about it said children were arriving at school unable to speak because they had never been spoken to or had always had a dummy in their mouth. WHAT? What has this got to do with Nurseries and Childminders? I guess this must happen in some homes but surely this is an issue of neglect by parents (not child care providers) and should be investigated by social services.

I always take the dummies out when the babies arrive and leave them in the bag till home time.

:huh:

tess1981
03-04-2014, 11:37 AM
I take dummies too... They get them at sleep time or if they are very cranky and upset.
My sil let's her son have it all day and he is for playschool in September and speech is delayed. He is not in a cm or nursery so who does the professionals blame there.
And we do talk to the children. We are on our own mostly all day so off course we talk and interact with the children. How else would they get to understand the running of . my home or how would I know what they want.

watford wizz
03-04-2014, 12:04 PM
"He will add: "What children facing serious disadvantage need is high-quality, early education from the age of two, delivered by skilled practitioners with degrees in a setting that parents can recognise and access easily. These already exist. They are called schools." "

It will be very interesting to see all these graduates who are willing to work with young children from very difficult family situations on the pittance the government is offering. Teaching them in a school setting with no sleep/rest area required. Have the people making these changes ever been anywhere near a tired, hungry/ non toilet trained two year old?? Who's early influences have often been very negative/frightening/abusive.

cookiesncream
03-04-2014, 12:24 PM
I think he's missing the point. Parents have a duty to help their child develop the skills they need to start school. A responsible parent, whatever their background is, will do this. All nurseries and childminders can do is add to these skills (if these kids even attend such places). What we do for these children is next to useless if parent's are not doing their job too. This just gives irresponsible parents permission to carry on being irresponsible.

It's not addressing the real problem.

FussyElmo
03-04-2014, 12:31 PM
Ah yes but as changes to secondary schools are happening where its becoming looked down on children doing art, music, dance pe.

Start them early in school stop any sort of creativity reading writing and maths are the only thing that matters and it will stop any child from wanting to do anything creative.

Where will our musicans, writers etc come from. Its a sad state of affairs for any child 0-18 years old :(:(:(:(:(:(

tess1981
03-04-2014, 12:34 PM
I think he's missing the point. Parents have a duty to help their child develop the skills they need to start school. A responsible parent, whatever their background is, will do this. All nurseries and childminders can do is add to these skills (if these kids even attend such places). What we do for these children is next to useless if parent's are not doing their job too. This just gives irresponsible parents permission to carry on being irresponsible.

It's not addressing the real problem.

This is a good point. We teach children for example table manners or tantrums do not get you what it is you think you should have. But if a parent allows a child to get their own way what we have taught them goes out the window and we are blamed for not teaching these very important qualities.

loocyloo
03-04-2014, 12:36 PM
Ah yes but as changes to secondary schools are happening where its becoming looked down on children doing art, music, dance pe.

Start them early in school stop any sort of creativity reading writing and maths are the only thing that matters and it will stop any child from wanting to do anything creative.

Where will our musicans, writers etc come from. Its a sad state of affairs for any child 0-18 years old :(:(:(:(:(:(

that's very scary .... our secondary school is a performing arts specialist school and indeed last night I watched an amazing performance involving about a quarter of the school in drama/dance/music&singing. they are not too bad at sports either !

( and also academically good ... in fact, they are OUTSTANDING! )

FussyElmo
03-04-2014, 12:57 PM
that's very scary .... our secondary school is a performing arts specialist school and indeed last night I watched an amazing performance involving about a quarter of the school in drama/dance/music&singing. they are not too bad at sports either !

( and also academically good ... in fact, they are OUTSTANDING! )

So is ours but our teachers think there wont be an dance exam in the next few years :(:(

Simona
03-04-2014, 01:11 PM
I think that the press have twisted this quite a lot and made general sweeping statements...including Jeremy Vine on his radio show!
pity that my tweet to him about his ignorance didn't get there on time

Ofsted is referring to children from disadvantaged backgrounds not achieving as well as those from affluent backgrounds...
he is correct there and the gap has not narrowed for many years...why?
so the thinking is the Home Learning Environment needs to be improved ...also for those 'disadvantaged' parents to access high quality provision and support which apparently they are not as finding providers is a mess...maybe he is right but who created the mess? and who cut the funding?

Ofsted have confirmed that since records began 78% of all EY providers are now good/outstanding...that is a record...the press have not stressed that but lumped nurseries and CMs together as all bad for headline grabbing

That leaves 22% of providers giving poor quality...
so the report should have stressed that those are in need of support but in poor areas funding has been cut and support not there anymore...that was not mentioned on BBC News...no point in Wilshaw blaming the LAs when his mates at the DfE are busy reducing their funding and roles

Wilshaw also refers to the drop in cms (section 22) because of the result of tough inspections...while Truss blames bureaucracy...they obviously do not talk to each other
We know the reasons are very different...those who did not want to deliver the EYFS left years ago

Overall Wilshaw intentions are good ...it is his style that lacks engagement and respect...if he listened he would find providers agree.....he does not appear aware of what happens at our level.

Putting 2 year olds in schools is not the answer ...there are many poor schools and many who have no idea how to deal with that age
Schools lack space for primary children ...where will they find the space for 2 year olds?
Ofsted is proposing starting school at 2...Ofsted is not a policy maker but a regulator and this is very concerning
His emphasis is on starting school at 2 and his focus is Reception children...many worry he will take Reception out of the EYFS

His speech was commented as it was delivered this morning and twitter was very effective in engaging....
Ofsted Big Conversation will extend to cover this report as well....so lots happening and too much frustration when the media twists the facts.

This is a prime example
Ofsted chief blames early years providers for school readiness failings | Children & Young People Now (http://www.cypnow.co.uk/cyp/news/1143215/wilshaw-blames-providers-school-readiness-failings?utm_content=&utm_campaign=30414%20daily%20&utm_source=Children%20%26%20Young%20People%20Now&utm_medium=adestra_email&utm_term=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cypnow.co.uk%2Fcyp%2Fnew s%2F1143215%2Fwilshaw-blames-providers-school-readiness-failings)

Jayse74
03-04-2014, 01:19 PM
Goodbye to the traditional Childminder!

I will get shot down for it, always do. Basically an agenda has been put in place. It is like one big Chess game. Ratios was our win, Agencies their win.

They are playing a dirty game of smear and demoralize. Most weeks you cannot open a paper or look on the internet without seeing a story about how bad Childminders are or how we cost hard working parents so much! Todays grand story nicely timed for the easter break (sheer brilliance on their part as parents will be thinking about stuff near the start of term)

Wraparound care which is coming in this September at our local school have even made sure that "Hard Working Parents deserve quality and value for money!" on their advert. Forget all the other provisions in place only theirs will give parents quality! Peel everything back and its just an after school club with some snacks and stuff that a Nursery or Childminder does.

Coalition = Cuts
Cuts = Parents Kicking off about money

The fix?

Stick kids in school as early as possible. Layer on Learning, put down private nurseries and Childminders for good measure. Label the new idea as Quality then job done.

Sold down the river? The boat sunk in dry dock before it sailed LOL

Jayse74
03-04-2014, 02:32 PM
I need to vent more! arghhh.

Just been reading this:

Ofsted chief to deliver 'must do better' warning to nurseries | Education | The Observer (http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/mar/29/nurseries-warning-ofsted-chief-wilshaw?guni=Keyword:news-grid%20main-1%20Main%20trailblock:Editable%20trailblock%20-%20news:Position7)

This bit here:

"In a speech to launch Ofsted's annual report on early years providers, he will say that he wants parents to be able to see their child is being taught a rich vocabulary, enjoying nursery rhymes, learning to build small towers with blocks, and being given the chance to listen to stories and look at books"

Now we have been doing all along ever since we started! Parents see the learning journals we have created, the obsverations. The fact that our resources and toys are geared towards play and learning. We have even been slapped down for doing too much believe it or not lol!

I just feel argghh at the moment! brain ache.

Simona
03-04-2014, 04:58 PM
Jayse74...I have posted this in another thread but look at it here...

Ofsted: all parents should get a 'checklist' telling them how to raise their children - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10741986/Ofsted-all-parents-should-get-a-checklist-telling-them-how-to-raise-their-children.html)

A letter signed by over 200 people was sent to Ofsted asking to rethink their proposal
Gradgrind for tiny tots - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/10740170/Gradgrind-for-tiny-tots.html)

One of the signatories was interviewed this morning by Vanessa Feltz...just before that listen to Gill Jones' of Ofsted ...something or another....vice chair I think...talking about children with dummies in their mouth and 4 year olds being pushed to school in buggies
It will make you a bit mad but there you go...

BBC London 94.9 - Vanessa Feltz, School from the age of two (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01vh503)

Anyone interested can listen to the Alliance Neil Leith at 7pm on channel 4 News responding to Ofsted

Blueeyedminder
03-04-2014, 05:16 PM
In my opinion practitioners should be given the choice about what type of carer they want to be, either a childminder or an EY educator and then given the appropriate training.. Parents should then have a choice about where they send their children... I bet most would choose childminders rather than other!

LET CHILDREN BE CHILDREN!

Jayse74
03-04-2014, 07:00 PM
Jayse74...I have posted this in another thread but look at it here...

Ofsted: all parents should get a 'checklist' telling them how to raise their children - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10741986/Ofsted-all-parents-should-get-a-checklist-telling-them-how-to-raise-their-children.html)

A letter signed by over 200 people was sent to Ofsted asking to rethink their proposal
Gradgrind for tiny tots - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/10740170/Gradgrind-for-tiny-tots.html)

One of the signatories was interviewed this morning by Vanessa Feltz...just before that listen to Gill Jones' of Ofsted ...something or another....vice chair I think...talking about children with dummies in their mouth and 4 year olds being pushed to school in buggies
It will make you a bit mad but there you go...

BBC London 94.9 - Vanessa Feltz, School from the age of two (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01vh503)

Anyone interested can listen to the Alliance Neil Leith at 7pm on channel 4 News responding to Ofsted

Thanks :) Listening to the Vanessa thing now, yes it is making me angry!

Oh yes we leave mindees in front of the TV with pacifiers in their gobs whilst we sit and check our farcebook pages lol

Unfortunately some people will believe that as gospel!

yummyripples
03-04-2014, 10:44 PM
I don't know about anyone else but when I talk to my parents about what ofsed recommend and how they feel about it they all just say it's a load of rubbish - their child is happy and developing well and that is all they are bothered about. None of my parents are bothered about their children hitting targets - they know that by being in a home environment they are developing skills that they couldn't do sitting in a classroom

Simona
04-04-2014, 09:18 AM
In my opinion practitioners should be given the choice about what type of carer they want to be, either a childminder or an EY educator and then given the appropriate training.. Parents should then have a choice about where they send their children... I bet most would choose childminders rather than other!

LET CHILDREN BE CHILDREN!

My view is that parents do have a choice and now that most cms can do funding that choice has widened...but how many parents will keep their children with cms rather than go to a preschool ...or even start school at 5 not 3?

Before all cms could access funding parents followed the funding ...now they will follow parents pressure and put children in school...it would be good if they resisted that trend but I doubt it.

On the subject of parents...the EYFS 2008 was very clear that parents were the children's first educators and we needed to work in partnership
EYFS 2012 does still say we need to work in partnership but if parents are still in need of being reminded how to teach their children...is it the providers fault?
I wonder if cuts to parenting support/parenting classes has anything to do with it?

Wilshaw wants children toilet trained and doing shoe laces...he doesn't say at what age and who is complaining they have not mastered those tasks?
the Reception teachers themselves in a class of 30....who have no time to change soiled children or even help them to change for PE....this is all a con to get children into school and fast...
vast majority of children at 4 are perfectly toilet trained... then get into Reception and if under pressure regress a bit... and start soling again
It has happened to many children in our care I am sure


We are now not even allowed to say 'let children be children' because Wilshaw has labelled those who speak up for children the 'chattering classes'...
maybe someone would like to explain what that means but I understand it is a derogatory term??

HMCI should reflect on his style and choice of words and his approach in how to work with parents

Mouse
04-04-2014, 10:46 AM
In my opinion practitioners should be given the choice about what type of carer they want to be, either a childminder or an EY educator and then given the appropriate training.. Parents should then have a choice about where they send their children... I bet most would choose childminders rather than other!

LET CHILDREN BE CHILDREN!

I said this from the moment EYFS was introduced. I said childminders should have the choice of either being a childminder, who offers care, but doesn't follow EYFS, or a childminder who offers care and follows the EYFS. Tax credits could be used for either, as they bother offer childcare, but Early Years funding could only be offered by those who follow the EYFS.
Those not offering education would probably be cheaper and parents would have a choice.
At the time people were against my grand plan as they said it would create a 2 tier system, but we're going to have that anyway now with independent and agency childminders.

Mouse
04-04-2014, 10:58 AM
I haven't looked at too many reports or articles as they just annoy me too much. I've gone for the head in the sand approach!

One of things that does strike me though is the seemingly different views of Wilshaw and Truss. He seems triumphant that childminder numbers have dropped because Ofsted have set the standards high. I think he says how many people drop out when they realise how much work is involved and how much is expected of them. This, in his opinion, leads to a higher skilled workforce as only the determined get through. It sounds as if he wants to continue this - toughen things up so only the strongest get through.
Then you get Truss who says numbers have dropped because of the paperwork etc. Rather than seeing this as a positive (like Wilshaw does) she sees it as a negative and wants to ease the burden, or dumb down the process by setting up agencies. She wants to encourage more people to become childminders by making it easier, thus flooding the market with untrained, unskilled, mass produced, cheap childcare.

One wants quality over quantity while the other puts quantity firmly over quality. It'll be interesting to see who wins as they can't both get what they want.

Simona
04-04-2014, 11:54 AM
I haven't looked at too many reports or articles as they just annoy me too much. I've gone for the head in the sand approach!

One of things that does strike me though is the seemingly different views of Wilshaw and Truss. He seems triumphant that childminder numbers have dropped because Ofsted have set the standards high. I think he says how many people drop out when they realise how much work is involved and how much is expected of them. This, in his opinion, leads to a higher skilled workforce as only the determined get through. It sounds as if he wants to continue this - toughen things up so only the strongest get through.
Then you get Truss who says numbers have dropped because of the paperwork etc. Rather than seeing this as a positive (like Wilshaw does) she sees it as a negative and wants to ease the burden, or dumb down the process by setting up agencies. She wants to encourage more people to become childminders by making it easier, thus flooding the market with untrained, unskilled, mass produced, cheap childcare.

One wants quality over quantity while the other puts quantity firmly over quality. It'll be interesting to see who wins as they can't both get what they want.

Truss and Wilshaw are also working against each other and maybe should sit down and look at policy

Wilshaw wants 2 year olds in high quality settings...trials for the 2 yo reported this is effective
Achieving 2 year olds kicked in Sept 2013...so only 6 months ago...how can he draw results from such a short period of time?

Truss and DfE have allowed the LAs to fund Requires improvement settings where good/outstanding are in short supply
LAs also fund newly registered cms who are still awaiting first inspection....and many have been registered for a very long time now...

so where is the continuity in policy here?