Another annoying ratio question

[Kaybeaa]

I never thought I'd be asking a ratio question because I genuinely thought I had a grasp of the EYFS and the numbers we were allowed. But now I've got myself all confused and need someone to help please!

I currently mind two children, one 2 and one 9 months on a tues weds and thurs all day. Which means I have one EYFS space left. Yesterday I had an enquiry from a parent looking for afternoon care on tues and weds for her 3 year old, and a school pick up for her 4 year old who will have just started school. So am I right in thinking that as the 4 year old is under 5, (despite being in full time school) I will be over my numbers once I've picked this child up from school? (Because school child will still be classed as EYFS?) is this right? Or am I being stupid?

[Rick]

If the 4 year old is in full time school I.e. 10 sessions a week, every day, morning and afternoon then they are referred to as rising 5's and can be out of your EY numbers

[Karen1]

School child is out of 0-5 ratio when they are attending school full time (10 sessions) and not doing the staggered start bit.
Think that's correct

[Rick]

.......but you should be guided by the EYFS (not necessarily meeting all the learning requirements) as they are still EYFS age. You should talk to their other setting eg school so you can compliment their learning whilst with you

[Kaybeaa]

Oh great thankyou. Think the "rising 5" thing was confusing me! Yes they will be in full time school.

[*daisychain*]

If a 3 year old is in full time for 10 sessions are they still classed as a rising 5 ? Sorry for hijacking this thread :/

[FussyElmo]

If a 3 year old is in full time for 10 sessions are they still classed as a rising 5 ? Sorry for hijacking this thread :/

I believe that they have to be in the Reception class.

[Mouse]

If a 3 year old is in full time for 10 sessions are they still classed as a rising 5 ? Sorry for hijacking this thread :/

No. It's very specific that it's for 4 and 5 year olds only. It basically covers those in reception class.

This is the wording:

If children aged four and five only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, and/or during school holidays, they may be cared for at the same time as three other young children. But in all circumstances, the total number of children under the age of eight being cared for must not exceed six.

[*daisychain*]

So when I child turns four, if they attend full time nursery can they be classed as rising 5 ?

[Rick]

So when ***** turns four, if they attend full time nursery can they be classed as rising 5 ?

No, definitely not:

A school day is defined in the Children's Act as 2 sessions of school with a break in the middle.

A school day is not the same as a nursery day because a school day is compulsory while a nursery day is your choice.

A child is not in full time school (rising 5) until they start reception class.

This is what the law says - Sarah707 has had it clarified by Ofsted.

Hope this helps

[LG2014]

Hi,

So a child who starts reception in Sept who is 4 years and 6 months still makes up the under 5 ratio?

Then in Sept after their 5 birthday they may up the over 5 ratio?

[Rick]

Hi,

So a child who starts reception in Sept who is 4 years and 6 months still makes up the under 5 ratio?

Then in Sept after their 5 birthday they may up the over 5 ratio?

Any child between 4 and 8 who is in full time education (10 sessions a week, morning and afternoon every day) may be classed as in your 5-8 bracket. 4 year olds in full time education are referred to as "rising 5's". These children are EYFS age and therefore you would be expected to compliment their learning at school by asking the teacher about the child

[*daisychain*]

If you care for children aged four and five who are in full time education, either before or after school or in the school holidays, you may count them as older than the early years age group for the purposes of ratios. This would also apply to your own child. This allows you have to have extra children in the early years age group but no more than six children in total. This is often referred to as ‘Rising Fives’, it is important to note that whilst these children are still in the early years age group you must continue to deliver the Early Years Foundation Stage. The Statutory Framework for the Early Years Foundation Stage does not specify that the children must be in reception class or year 1, only that they are in full time education. Therefore four-years-olds attending maintained nursery schools or maintained nursery classes (or an independent school where they are pupils of the school) may be counted as attending full time education if they do indeed attend for a whole school day. It is more usual for younger children to attend maintained nursery schools or classes on a part-time basis but if they do attend full time they can be counted as older than the early years age group for the purpose of the ratios. They can only be counted as older than the early years age group if they attend the childminder before and/or after a normal school day (also in the school holidays). This situation would not apply of the children went to a day nursery or pre-school for these sort of hours as we would not count attendance at such a facility as full time education. I hope this information helps. However should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us Regards, Robert Aldred Ofsted - National Business Unit TEL: 0300 123 1231

Sorry I don't know how to put links on to other posts so I have copy and pasted this I remembered reading. It's not hard to see why it's so confusing :/

[blue bear]

Some years ago wheni applied for a variation for taking on a baby sister, I was told I didn't need a variation as the four year old in full time private school nursery class (not reception) was counted as a rising five. I have it in writing somewhere.

The best thing to do is write to ofsted of even the department for education for clarification as to who the rising five clause applies to.

[LG2014]

Think I will do that thank you for all the information and for copy and pasting!

I have two of my own children of my own

A daughter who be 4 in March and attending Reception in September and my son who will be 1 in April.

I know if I were to childmind now I can only have one mindee under 5.

But come Sept I was hoping for one mindee in day and then 3 before and afterschools (one being my daughter) but not sure how it works. X

[*daisychain*]

I have just emailed Ofsted , not expecting a clear answer though, that would be to easy :/ I shall keep you posted x

[Mouse]

Sorry I don't know how to put links on to other posts so I have copy and pasted this I remembered reading. It's not hard to see why it's so confusing :/

I think it depends what sort of nursery it is. If it is a day nursery, it's not counted as education, but if it's a maintained nursery it can be. But I know in our area, no maintained nurseries take children for 10 sessions week.

[LG2014]

At the moment my daughter attends a school nursery she does 3 hours a day Mon-Fri (her free 15 hours)

Come September she be in (hopefully!) the same school but in Reception 8.55-3.15 Mon-Fri x

[*daisychain*]

Manchester take children on full time in nursery schools, my son is three and in 9-3pm

[LG2014]

Exactly Daisy

My friend little boy does 9-3pm too. And Manchester too! :) x

[Mouse]

Manchester take children on full time in nursery schools, my son is three and in 9-3pm

That sounds hopeful then. I hope you get a satisfactory reply from Ofsted rather than the usual "read the EYFS" response!

[*daisychain*]

We'll just as I expected, no help at all from ofsted, emailed me back with a link to the statutory framework , now why did I not think of looking in there ?!!!! I think another email is on the cards :/