What would you do??

[ksharpe]

H, I've been a registered childminder for 12 years. I recently moved and started minding in my new area...

The siblings I took on were 9months and almost 6.
The 6 year always been a handful and clashed daily with my own children.. 2 years down the line and im still in same situation controlled but very hard work and find the school pick up a dreaded time.
Last week the now almost 8 year old threw an toy which smashed my tv screen in playroom, when asked why she did this she said she didn't care and it made no difference to her as she had tv's at home. Her attitude was disgusting. I spoke to the parent about her behaviour ( not the first time,and she is always in trouble at school and brownies for bad behaviour and bad attitude.)she did offer to pay for tv.
I advised I wouldn't not tolerate this as of the influence she has on my own children and other minded children so I gave her notice.
The parent has since ordered tv but with held my payment. Now asking me to claim off my home insurance. When I have told her I don't have accidental home cover she has since emailed me saying she has spoke to her own insurance company and is saying i should be able to claim even if I don't have accidental??
I understand that accidents happen but this was no accident.

I just wounded if any other childminders had found themselves in this situation with an unruly child who has damaged property?

[Emra81]

I've got no personal experience of this so can't offer any concrete advice but surely it's got nothing to do with her home insurance and not really anything to do with yours? Her daughter deliberately broke your TV and she agreed she would buy you a new one. Even IF a claim was able to go through insurance, I don't know about you but our excess is £100 so, depending on what type of TV she's replacing, she'd have to at least pay that much anyway. Sounds like she's trying to wriggle out of it....not on. Sending moral support x

[kellyskidz!]

Do you have a policy on this?
I was advised by my mentor when I was setting up to have one, as it makes parents aware that they are responsible for things their child breaks. I go through it very clearly with them before their child starts and so far no probs (but I haven't enforced it yet so who knows, a parent may dispute it)
I know a cm who's mindee threw her brand new iPhone and smashed the screen, her insurance said it wasn't covered because the damage had been deliberate by a child over 8 and she had to ask parents to pay out, which they did but it ruined the working relationship and they left soon after.
I don't know where you stand to be honest, I don't know if the parents HAVE to pay, or if the cm I know just got lucky that the parents coughed up
I'd speak to your insurance anyway and see what they say, but then it may mean you have to pay a higher rate having made a claim, which doesn't seem fair

[ksharpe]

Thank you for your support..

It was £350 tv, only just bought before Xmas.
20 weeks pregnant also so I could do without the added stress. She's already bought the tv, it was delivered this morning. But she's now withholding last month payment in waiting for my reply to contact my insurance company, but like you say excess will be 100/150 and claiming on what I would class a small amount ( for a tv) my premium would then go up.
She states in her last email" I presumed you would be covered for things like this as recommended by all licensing bodies?"

I have my ncma/pacey public liability insurance, but I wasn't aware I HAD to have accidental damage home insurance??
She obviously knows more than me??

I do totally understand accidents happen, and had it been a 1/2 year old I would consider this non intentional.. Buts seeing as she has previously broken toys and given her attitude and behaviour I will not accept this was an accident.

[kellyskidz!]

Thank you for your support..

It was £350 tv, only just bought before Xmas.
20 weeks pregnant also so I could do without the added stress. She's already bought the tv, it was delivered this morning. But she's now withholding last month payment in waiting for my reply to contact my insurance company, but like you say excess will be 100/150 and claiming on what I would class a small amount ( for a tv) my premium would then go up.
She states in her last email" I presumed you would be covered for things like this as recommended by all licensing bodies?"

I have my ncma/pacey public liability insurance, but I wasn't aware I HAD to have accidental damage home insurance??
She obviously knows more than me??

I do totally understand accidents happen, and had it been a 1/2 year old I would consider this non intentional.. Buts seeing as she has previously broken toys and given her attitude and behaviour I will not accept this was an accident.
She's withholding the last months payment for the TV? Well she bought it in her name so let her withhold it, it'll fall back on her. She's agreed to replace your TV, that her child broke intentionally, wether your insurance covers it or not is irrelevant now, she can't change her mind because she wants to save a few quid now
Presumed you would be covered my eye! I'd presume that an 8 year old would know better than to break a TV too!
No I'd email her back saying no your child broke it deliberately so I'm not covered and maybe have a chat about respecting peoples property x

[ksharpe]

Think I might give ncma/ pacey a call to see if they have any information they can give me. In all of my 12 years never have I come across this before. :-(

So stressful, I feel I care for these children like their my own, but as soon as you cross the parent with regard to behaviour and respect I'm the worst enemy.
If put myself in the same situation I'd pay straight away, especially when the child admitted to doing it and I saw them!

Thank you for your support x

[funemnx]

An awful situation to be in - the atmosphere must be quite tense, not nice to work in. I suspect that having bought the TV the mother now has no money to pay you so is trying to manipulate the situation so she doesn't have to pay for the T.V..... Plus friends and family will be giving her 'advice' as to what she should and shouldn't be paying for!

In your shoes I would expect the parent to pay for the T.V. When a 3 year old scratched my new car with a stone as mum was collecting, the mum paid nearly £300 for my car to be fixed.

[mama2three]

I wouldn't claim on my insurance. Firstly , even if I had accidental cover I wouldn't commit fraud by saying this was accidental damage - this was wilful damage!
Secondly the increase in my premiums would be too much to consider what is effect a small claim.

How much does she owe for childcare?

[ksharpe]

She owes £450

I have no intention of claiming off my own insurance. At 8 years old I expect the children in my home to respect my property. Had it been a small child of 1 or 2 years I would have thought differently. I have rules of the house poster up in entrance.. Clearly stating no throwing toys inside.

Xx

[FussyElmo]

Ok devils advocate here.

Do you have it in your contracts that you will charge for damage caused by the mindees?
I can see why the parent would expect you to have insurance to cover such incidents. We are business and insurance is part of it. The fact that most insurance companies wont cover mindees for accidental damage wont be considered.
Where were you at the time of the breakage - if you were to take it further the parent may query the supervision of the child.

Think you need to sit down and talk this calmly through. Is it the last months payment of the tv that she is withholding? If she brought in her name there isn't much she can do about it now the company she brought it from wont be allowing the comment well I brought it for my childminder so now needs to pay.

When you sit down with the parent you need to discuss the behaviour of the older child. And see if you can actually continue to look after her remember the EYFS states that the care of the over 8s must not impact on the care of the eyfs children and is she is throwing toy and smashing tvs :-(

edited is it this months fees she is withholding then. if yes follow you unpaid fees procedure and add on any late fee payment charges.

Whats your relationship with the mum like. Is she supportive? Would she struggle to find £800 in a month the tv and the months fees? Maybe Im a soft touch but I would take all this into consideration :thumbsup:

[emma04]

If parent has already paid for tv and you have it in your possession can you not ignore her emails asking you to claim on your insurance for it and just pursue her for non payment of fees through your CM insurance??

She admitted fault, paid for and replaced the Tv. Done and dusted in my opinion.

BUT. Is now refusing to pay fees owed to you....therefore she is now breaching her contract and you can claim for the non payment of fees without needing to discuss the tv incident which to all intents and purposes is solved!!

[Koala]

Parent should pay for tv, their child broke it and it wasn't an accident - it's about time the parents took responsibility for their childs attitude, bad and wrecless behaviour and did something about it.

She has replaced tv - so this is good - she has accepted liability and made good. (I wouldn't claim on my insurance either, from the sound of it this situation has a moral lesson to be learnt)

Withholding your payment for childcare is wrong and a totally separate issue, so I would follow your late payment policy and treat as a none payment.


Tell them straight - their child cannot behave like this and expect others to bear the cost or the hardship they have to take responsibility for their daughter for another 10 years and at this rate it is going to be a costly one if they don't do something about it. :thumbsup: And then I would show them the door permanently - I do not expect anyone to behave like that how would they feel if you went round to their house and smashed their tv???? Would they call the police? Would they invite you back? :panic: lets not forget here we and our property should be respected at all times. And an 8 year old throwing something at the tv and showing no remorse is NOT acceptable. If it was an accident and the child was genuinely sorry maybe I would put it down to experience But it wasn't and this is where I have difficulty in finding anything but the parents responsibility to put right. :thumbsup: good luck :thumbsup: I would be FUMING :angry:

I have had accidents happen and accepted the damages but this (as Judge Judy says) was an on purpose. :D

[kellyskidz!]

Is she withholding payment for childcare?!?! No WAY! I read it as withholding the last instalment payment for the TV, but if its childcare payment she's withholding then I'd be livid! Charge her a late fee and demand the money now. It's nothing to do with childcare this issue, she can't withhold your fees over this, you provided childcare she pays for it. The TV is a separate issue totally (and still her responsibility IMO)

[donnam]

Just to say about claiming on house insurance dependent on who you are with most won't cover for damage by minded children x

[ksharpe]

Update:-


Parent now paid all of fees. Apart from £52.00

I emailed her stating that I have all relevant insurances that ofsted require. I have never been recommended ( as she stated) to take out childminder home insurance. I have my ncma/pacey membership and public liability insurance.
I did phone pacey yesterday and enquired about there home minder insurance and it was £474 a year. This is double what we pay now. I try and keep my prices reasonable but I feel having to take out this kind of insurance but have to reflect in my prices charged.

I also stated in the whole 12 years I have minded in my own home I have never had to make a personal claim on any damage made by a minded child..

I understand accidents happen and fully expect toys to break. As pointed out in one of the replies the fact that the child knows better than to throw heavy objects inside let alone at my tv and that she didn't care fuelled me even more to pursue payment for tv and give notice on the child.

Thanks for all your help and support.

Ill keep you posted.

[FussyElmo]

Update:-


Parent now paid all of fees. Apart from £52.00

I emailed her stating that I have all relevant insurances that ofsted require. I have never been recommended ( as she stated) to take out childminder home insurance. I have my ncma/pacey membership and public liability insurance.
I did phone pacey yesterday and enquired about there home minder insurance and it was £474 a year. This is double what we pay now. I try and keep my prices reasonable but I feel having to take out this kind of insurance but have to reflect in my prices charged.

I also stated in the whole 12 years I have minded in my own home I have never had to make a personal claim on any damage made by a minded child..

I understand accidents happen and fully expect toys to break. As pointed out in one of the replies the fact that the child knows better than to throw heavy objects inside let alone at my tv and that she didn't care fuelled me even more to pursue payment for tv and give notice on the child.

Thanks for all your help and support.

Ill keep you posted.

Im glad that you have most of your money :)

Quick question on your home insurance you are insured for being a childminder not just normal house hold insurance?

[The Juggler]

personally I don't think we can charge for damage caused by children in our care -deliberate or not. If parents offer - then fine I won't turn it down but otherwise - unless its written in to the contract - no :panic::panic: hard to prove to a parent that the child did it on purpose. Hard fact I know but just my opinion.

I would actually leave the TV out of it as it complicates the matter of claiming for unpaid fees. Tell her you have written off the TV but that you will be pursuing the payment for notice with interest for late payment as of today. Then I'd hunt for a cheap second hand replacement TV for your playroom. :thumbsup:

[ksharpe]

The parent did offer to pay for tv. But now wants me to put a claim in on my insurance. I'm not claiming off my own insurance when the child did this on purpose.to me that isn't accidental !! Had it been my own child I wouldnt claim.
I'm certainly not buying a cheap second hand television when we only purchased this one before christmas.
At 8 years old I would expect the child to know better. And as for her attitude and lack of respect I will not tolerate. It's a bad influence on my other children in my care. If I just wrote tv off what stopping her from doing it again and again. I hard lesson needs to be learnt.

[bunyip]

Please don't think I'm being unsympathetic. I realise this is a stressful situation at a stressful time. But I want to look for a moment at the facts and legal rights/responsibilities involved here. Unfortunately, things are not always as we think they should be, and the legal rights and wrongs are not always the same as what we would see as the moral rights and wrongs. We can say all we like about things being unacceptable and intolerable (and I agree with all those points) but the indignation isn't going to matter one jot if this ends up going legal and being settled through insurers/solicitors/courts, etc. all of which will see you as a business, and not as a woman with a busted telly in her own home. :(

The simple fact is that a child's actions (accidental, intentional, malicious, or otherwise) whilst in the care of a CM are the CM's responsibility. That's what we take on when we take on the child. We can write all the policies we like and not change this one little bit. That's the sort of thing we can be dealing with, and what we all need to consider. It's one good reason to have appropriate insurance, and check which insurance covers what. (I know several CMs who still think their pacey insurance is going to cover their own belongings, when it is only PLI.)

I wouldn't pay much attention to what the client has been told by her insurance company. Insurers will generally say anything to avoid a claim being made on them, a favourite being to claim on a different policy.

So, the bad news is that I believe the CM is responsible for the damage to the TV. I'm not saying this is fair; I'm saying this is how it is.

The good news is that you probably have reasonable grounds for immediate notice with your fees paid in lieu, subject to what your contract says. I don't think mum can simply offset this against any TV purchases.

The 'possibly-good' news is that the parent appears to have accepted at least some degree of responsibility when she offered to pay for the TV, albeit she has since back-pedalled on that point. Your legal team should take this up and see how far it will run.

I strongly urge you to take legal advice on this matter. I think we all agree what has happened is unpleasant, unfair and unacceptable - but that isn't what's going to get you your money.

[mumof3]

The fees are a completely separate matter, if she's with holding fees you are able to go to your childminding insurance company and ask for advice and assistance on getting the parent to pay outstanding fees. I have had a similar situation and my insurance company Morton Michel paid me the outstanding fees.

[Tazmin68]

With regards to insurance I am quite surprised that no one has picked up on the fact that you did not have accidental cover for contents in relation to mindees. On both of my last inspections ofsted did check this plus people from the LA. If push come go shove I would have put it through my books which I do to replace things that have been broken by mindees although not to that sort of costs. I would have taken legal advice re fees but it looks like your sorted there. With regards to child's behaviour yes I would be giving parents notice out of courtesy I would have given four weeks notice but as long as you can get pacey legal team to agree that the child is putting other children at risk of injury you will probably have their backing to be able to terminate with immediate effect.

With regards to the higher cost of house and contents insurance what I do and I was told by hmrc is correct is get a like for like quote excluding the fact that I am a childminder and the accidental damage and I put through the difference in my accounts book as the bottom line is that I would have only been paying the higher premium because I am a childminder. One of those costs that help reduce the tax that I have to pay when I need to do so.

[LauraS]

With regards to insurance I am quite surprised that no one has picked up on the fact that you did not have accidental cover for contents in relation to mindees. On both of my last inspections ofsted did check this plus people from the LA.

Having contents insurance with or without accidental damage cover is not a requirement. I'm not sure why the LA or Ofsted would check you had it?

For my twopenneth worth, I think the tv and the fees are separate issues. She has bought you a tv so the matter is now closed. You didn't force her to replace it, she offered and you accepted. The issue of fees I would pursue separately.

That said, ultimately I consider the behaviour of the children in my care to be my responsibility.

[tigwig]

I thought it said on the last page of the pacey contracts something about parents being responsible for damage? Im in bed now so cant check until the morning!

[The Juggler]

The parent did offer to pay for tv. But now wants me to put a claim in on my insurance. I'm not claiming off my own insurance when the child did this on purpose.to me that isn't accidental !! Had it been my own child I wouldnt claim.
I'm certainly not buying a cheap second hand television when we only purchased this one before christmas.
At 8 years old I would expect the child to know better. And as for her attitude and lack of respect I will not tolerate. It's a bad influence on my other children in my care. If I just wrote tv off what stopping her from doing it again and again. I hard lesson needs to be learnt.

I'm not saying the 8 year old shouldn't learn a lesson. TBH I still think the cost of replacement is down to us. Honestly, if it were me I'd be giving immediate notice but I still think you need to suck up the cost. As I said if parent offered to pay I'd take the money but if that offer is withdrawn then you don't really have a leg to stand on. Pursing the TV cost will confuse the issue over unpaid fees.

sorry this has happened honey