4 under 4, siblings, new childminder, help please!

[zanacal]

Hi

I am a pre-reg childminder and I currently look after my friend's children a couple of days each week for no payment but the plan is that they will be my first minded children as soon as I'm able to register. I discussed the situation with my Local Authority upfront and they consider it to be ok but I wondered if I could run it past somebody else too as I am confused by what I've read elsewhere.

I have at home 2 of my own children, aged 1 and 4. My friend's youngest children are 1 and 3. The 3 and 4 year old both start school in September so I would have the 4 under 5 (2 sets of siblings, 1 set being my own) for 10 days a month for a short time period (from the time I register, April at earliest, to the end of the school year in July as they would be term time only).

My Local Authority thinks this situation would come under the 'exceptional circumstances' criteria so long as it was properly risk assessed but I keep reading people saying this criteria can only be applied to existing business and not new business. I can't find reference to this in EYFS statutory framework or Ofsted's number and ages of children factsheet however.

I offered to look after my friend's children from January when they moved to our town because I felt it would benefit me to have instant business as soon as I am registered but I refused any 'unofficial' payment because obviously I don't want to risk my future business as a childminder by doing anything not above board - but if I can't have them all due to restrictions on ratios then they'll need to find alternative arrangements for at least one of their children.

Any insight please?

[FussyElmo]

When you are registered you will not be able to take your friends children.

You will (taking your own children into account) have 1 under 5 space and 3 spaces for the 5-8's.

There is no exceptional circumstances as well you are not registered so this is new business.

[zanacal]

Could you point me to the Ofsted publication which says exceptions can only be made for existing business please? My Local Authority say this isn't something they're aware of so if it exists I'd like to share it with them.

[FussyElmo]

Childminders
3.39 At any one time, childminders may care for a maximum of six children under the age of eight20. Of these six children, a maximum of three may be young children21, and there should only be one child under the age of one. Any care provided for older children must not adversely affect the care of children receiving early years provision.
3.40 If a childminder can demonstrate to parents and/or carers and inspectors, that the individual needs of all the children are being met, then exceptions to the usual ratios can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies, or when caring for their own baby. If children aged four and five only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, and/or during school holidays, they may be cared for at the same time as three other young children. But in all circumstances, the total number of children under the age of eight being cared for must not exceed six.

^^^^^^^ taken from the eyfs

[FussyElmo]

This factsheet will also help

Ofsted | Factsheet: childcare - The numbers and ages of children that providers on the Early Years and Childcare Registers may care for (http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/factsheet-childcare-numbers-and-ages-of-children-providers-early-years-and-childcare-registers-may-c)

[zanacal]

The Local Authority are pointing me at this document -

Ofsted | Factsheet: childcare - The numbers and ages of children that providers on the Early Years and Childcare Registers may care for (http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/factsheet-childcare-numbers-and-ages-of-children-providers-early-years-and-childcare-registers-may-c)

and saying that they believe it's fine as an exceptional circumstance so long as I risk assess. I've given up rather a lot of my free time to provide free child care based on their advice before I started my pre-reg programme if this isn't the case :(

[ajc]

I can sort of understand why you would think that as you already look after them that continuity of care could apply but the fact is that as you are not registered yet they will be classed as new business and would take you over your numbers.

[FussyElmo]

The Local Authority are pointing me at this document -

Ofsted | Factsheet: childcare - The numbers and ages of children that providers on the Early Years and Childcare Registers may care for (http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/factsheet-childcare-numbers-and-ages-of-children-providers-early-years-and-childcare-registers-may-c)

and saying that they believe it's fine as an exceptional circumstance so long as I risk assess. I've given up rather a lot of my free time to provide free child care based on their advice before I started my pre-reg programme if this isn't the case :(

In any of the examples provided in the factsheet does it say that you can increase the numbers for new business. Its all about baby siblings being born or existing parents increasing their hours.

The one thing to remember is if ofsted don't agree with your interpretation and they mark you down to inadequate and they can stay with you until the parents collect whose business will suffer. Because ofsted don't accept the excuse well my LA said I could because its entirely down to you.

The ratios are what they are and when you register you will only have 1 under 5 space so what exceptional circumstances can you claim?

[CookieCutter]

I feel like Ofsted might consider this okay simply because, whether it's new business or not, it is continuity of care for the children you have already been looking after. Ofsted can't stop you from looking after them for free before you are registered, and in this time the children have probably become settled, so hopefully Ofsted would see it's in the best interest of the children to not make them have to move settings.

I'm afraid none of us can give you a definite answer. If it were me, I would email Ofsted and explain the situation. If you get it in writing, you'll have it to refer back to later.

I hope everything works out for you!

[kellyskidz!]

I agree, speak to OFSTED its the only way you'll get a definitive answer (although be warned they can sometimes be vague and say something along the lines of 'we can't advise you on numbers but we will want you to explain why you have the children you have in your care, especially if it goes against the guidelines set out')
Good luck xx

[zanacal]

Thank you. If it weren't for me browsing the forum then I would simply have taken my Local Authority at their word! I guess I will email Ofsted and take it from there.

[Mouse]

I would ask the inspector when they come to do your pre-reg visit.

[bunyip]

The LA can say what the flip it likes, but they won't be inspecting you. Nor will they be backing you up or taking the rap if the Ofsted inspector decides you're overminding.

Ofsted may even decline to give any advice in advance. Their approach is frequently one of: go read the EYFS and do what it says. They are now reluctant to advise or clarify on many issues. Even a reply from an Ofsted call-centre chicken won't carry much weight in the cold light of an inspection.

Forum 'old hands' tend to take a cautious approach to ratio questions, for a very good reason. CMs sometimes seem to think along the lines of "well, can't I give it a go, then surely it's up to Ofsted to justify any decision against me?" But the reality is that it works the other way round. Inspectors don't have to justify their interpretation to us; we have to have a nailed-on rock-solid proof that we are following EYFS.

Don't be offended if replies seem 'negative'. A lot of us have a slight world-weariness over ratio questions. All too often we have CMs who just seem to want someone to say, "yeah, OK - go for it." On the whole, we won't say this cos we don't want to lead someone merrily into an 'inadequate' grade.

The bottom line is: put your neck on the line by all means, but if Ofsted bring down the axe, don't say we didn't warn you. :(

[zanacal]

The LA can say what the flip it likes, but they won't be inspecting you. Nor will they be backing you up or taking the rap if the Ofsted inspector decides you're overminding.

Ofsted may even decline to give any advice in advance. Their approach is frequently one of: go read the EYFS and do what it says. They are now reluctant to advise or clarify on many issues. Even a reply from an Ofsted call-centre chicken won't carry much weight in the cold light of an inspection.

Forum 'old hands' tend to take a cautious approach to ratio questions, for a very good reason. CMs sometimes seem to think along the lines of "well, can't I give it a go, then surely it's up to Ofsted to justify any decision against me?" But the reality is that it works the other way round. Inspectors don't have to justify their interpretation to us; we have to have a nailed-on rock-solid proof that we are following EYFS.

Don't be offended if replies seem 'negative'. A lot of us have a slight world-weariness over ratio questions. All too often we have CMs who just seem to want someone to say, "yeah, OK - go for it." On the whole, we won't say this cos we don't want to lead someone merrily into an 'inadequate' grade.

The bottom line is: put your neck on the line by all means, but if Ofsted bring down the axe, don't say we didn't warn you. :(

I actually had no idea that I might be putting my neck on the line prior to this thread, having simply asked the question at the beginning of this process and assumed that the advice was valid. I will feel awful for the family if I have to tell them I won't be able to continue having them as they're really settled and it works very well (better than it would having just the 2 littlies and my pre schooler I think). I don't even know if she'll be able to find an alternative as our local children's centre is closing, the other nursery and all the decent childminders are therefore full. At the end of the day I won't do anything which may risk my standing as a childminder though, I simply struggled to get concrete guidance through reading the EYFS and Ofsted's publication when doubts were raised in my mind over the advice I've received.

[sarah707]

Very honest and clear reply from Bunyip...

i am one of the forum 'old hands' and I am very controlled in my replies to ratio questions because, as Bunyip says, it's not my registration on the line if it all goes wrong - it's yours.

Ofsted will tell you to read the Eyfs - and the Eyfs says that you cannot have 4 under 5 for new business. I am sorry but I believe you have been badly advised and I hope you will be very cautious.

I am not only an 'old hand' - less of the old please Bunyip - I also support a lot of cms who get it wrong. It's not very nice to be downgraded to unsatisfactory and have an inspector sit watching as you give notice to a child :(

Hth x

[Mouse]

Another oldie here!

I'd have to agree with the others saying no.

You are not currently looking after the children as their childminder, so cannot apply the rules of the EYFS. They will only come into effect on the day your registration is approved. From that point on, everything is new business and you cannot take on new business that puts you over your numbers.

Your LA may say it's OK, but they won't be there to back you up if an inspector queries it at your inspection, or if there is a complaint made against you for overminding.

But, having said that, Ofsted do sometimes work outside the box. I have had variations granted in the past (when Ofsted had to approve them) that didn't quote fit the criteria. That's why I said ask at your pre-reg visit. If the inspector gives a definite no, then you have your answer. If they say it will be OK, make sure you get their name, a record of when it was said & that they mark in your notes that you have discussed it with them.

[lisbet]

Could you care for all the children at her house as a nanny, until the two eldest children are at school full time in the autumn? Then they will be classed as 'rising 5's' and can use 2 of your 3 5-8yr old spaces. I think you would need a solid contract to make it clear you were working as a nanny, not a CM. I think PACEY sell nanny contracts, and maybe Morten Michel would too?

If Ofsted rang about your first full inspection whilst you were still nannying, you would need to say that you currently had no children on roll and were working as a nanny instead.

I *think* I am right that this could be a solution, but all you 'old' hands ;) please jump in if I'm saying something wrong. :confused:

[Zoomie]

A previously outstanding childminder in our area was recently downgraded to inadequate because of being over her numbers. I don't know the circumstances but the report reads really badly, and the CM seems to have been a CM for 6-7 years so should have known better.

Definitely not worth the risk

[JCrakers]

This is the problem we are encountering where the EYFS is vague and not helpful in the way it words things. Ofsted don't give a damn hoot when you ring for advice but have no worries in downgrading when childminders may have made wrong decisions.

When the variations came into effect in Sept 12 everyone had lots of questions and we were left to interpret it ourselves. I would stick to the sibling or continuity of care just in case although it's a pain if you have been caring for these children for free already .
Also ask your Ofsted inspector when she comes to visit although she probably wont give any advice.

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Could you care for all the children at her house as a nanny, until the two eldest children are at school full time in the autumn? Then they will be classed as 'rising 5's' and can use 2 of your 3 5-8yr old spaces. I think you would need a solid contract to make it clear you were working as a nanny, not a CM. I think PACEY sell nanny contracts, and maybe Morten Michel would too?

If Ofsted rang about your first full inspection whilst you were still nannying, you would need to say that you currently had no children on roll and were working as a nanny instead.

I *think* I am right that this could be a solution, but all you 'old' hands ;) please jump in if I'm saying something wrong. :confused:

I was about to paste the exact same comment - get registered but don't use it until the two older children are at school full time

[zanacal]

Thanks all.

As predicted I got a standard reply from Ofsted referring me to the EYFS. I do find it surprising that providers are left to interpret the rules themselves, no guidance offered, but they'll come down on you like a tonne of bricks if you get it wrong but I guess that's the way it is! I contacted my LA advisor again and they felt I should do a risk assessment and discuss it with the inspector on my registration inspection but I feel it would be too late for my friend to find alternative care if I had to say no at the last minute and I also feel they'll just refer me to the EYFS again. I'm not interested in nannying at her house and unsettling my own children and taking the out of our home for 2 or 3 days each week. So, I'm just about to let her know I can't have them both once I'm registered and am crossing my fingers that she'll keep sending the baby to me and can find a local alternative for her oldest boy but it's pretty booked up around here :(

[christine84]

hi zanacal,
I think there is a way around this. technically you are not yet registered right? so you do not have paperwork etc. speak to mum and explain the concept of extenuating
circumstances that allows you to increse your ratio of 3 under 5.
when you get registered start with the 3 kids..sign contracts and all same day. give or take3 weeks or so later.. sign next contract for 4th child...who will
be a sibling of one of the first 3 already on yourbooks . tnus the 4th child will be extenuating circumstances under continuity of care of siblings. and you will have the paper work to back it up.
x

[zanacal]

A friend of mine has expressed an interest in working as my assistant. This would obviously help me with my current situation but it would not be worthwhile me employing her and paying a minimum wage if I only had one extra child (paying less than the minimum wage and incurring expenses!). Is it, in theory, possible for her to work on a self-employed basis and for me to pay her an hourly rate per 'extra' child. She has one under 5 of her own who I would not charge for and of course would not pay her for. She has a background in childcare and is looking for a stop gap.

[amyp]

I have a friend doing the same- she is self employed having one child's hourly rate- if I have more children she will get paid more.

[mummyMia]

Ok, so it is the end of February now and this is only going to be a problem until July as the children are term time only, and two will go to school in September. It seems from your posts that you are not very far into the registration process as you have not had your pre-reg visit yet, is that right? If that is the case I think you are being pretty optimistic hoping that you will be registered by April. It could take longer than you think. It took me a whole 9 months! I would not worry about it too much for now and wait until you are closer to getting your certificate and have a better idea of the timescales. If you end up with only a short period between registration and July then perhaps your friend can ship the older child off to a relative/neighbour/friend/babysitter/etc. just to cover those weeks.

[zanacal]

Ok, so it is the end of February now and this is only going to be a problem until July as the children are term time only, and two will go to school in September. It seems from your posts that you are not very far into the registration process as you have not had your pre-reg visit yet, is that right? If that is the case I think you are being pretty optimistic hoping that you will be registered by April. It could take longer than you think. It took me a whole 9 months! I would not worry about it too much for now and wait until you are closer to getting your certificate and have a better idea of the timescales. If you end up with only a short period between registration and July then perhaps your friend can ship the older child off to a relative/neighbour/friend/babysitter/etc. just to cover those weeks.

Gosh really? Yes you're right, if I'm not registered before July then there isn't an issue anyway! Our LA are estimating April - our pre-reg course finishes in 3 weeks, my First Aid and Safeguarding courses are done, I have my medical booklet back and am waiting for my DBS check to be completed before I apply online. I guess only time will tell!