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emma04
28-01-2014, 06:56 PM
......to think that hundreds of people (mainly Eastern Europeans apparently!!) are paid less than the minimum wage!! - BBC NEWS!

Clearly never investigated the wages of childminders!!

Average of £3.50-£4.50 per hour for a 10hr day! Looking after the children of the future!!

Clearly shifting mattresses for £40 for a 7hr day is extortion!!! And deserves a much higher pay packet!! What a load of ball cocks!

I know we can have more children to increase our daily pay, but why should we? Every child requires just as much work as the next one!

We have do twice the work to earn anywhere near the minimum wage! But no one seems to have realised that yet! They just continue to advertise the fact that childcare is sooooo expensive!!

Simona
28-01-2014, 07:21 PM
......to think that hundreds of people (mainly Eastern Europeans apparently!!) are paid less than the minimum wage!! - BBC NEWS!

Clearly never investigated the wages of childminders!!

Average of £3.50-£4.50 per hour for a 10hr day! Looking after the children of the future!!

Clearly shifting mattresses for £40 for a 7hr day is extortion!!! And deserves a much higher pay packet!! What a load of ball cocks!

I know we can have more children to increase our daily pay, but why should we? Every child requires just as much work as the next one!

We have do twice the work to earn anywhere near the minimum wage! But no one seems to have realised that yet! They just continue to advertise the fact that childcare is sooooo expensive!!

I see your point and agree but those who keep moaning childcare is expensive will multiply £3.50 x 3 children and come up with £10.50ph...unfortunately they never think of the expenses we incur so they are looking at it with blinkers on!

Which reminds me to ask Lucy Powell MP on twitter #eytalking tonight how much she is proposing to pay us for 25 hrs of childcare...let alone for universal childcare?? :mad:

AliceK
28-01-2014, 07:38 PM
Today I worked all day for the princely sum of £2.22 per hour :panic: Somrthings not right somewhere.

xx

rickysmiths
28-01-2014, 07:46 PM
......to think that hundreds of people (mainly Eastern Europeans apparently!!) are paid less than the minimum wage!! - BBC NEWS!

Clearly never investigated the wages of childminders!!

Average of £3.50-£4.50 per hour for a 10hr day! Looking after the children of the future!!

Clearly shifting mattresses for £40 for a 7hr day is extortion!!! And deserves a much higher pay packet!! What a load of ball cocks!

I know we can have more children to increase our daily pay, but why should we? Every child requires just as much work as the next one!

We have do twice the work to earn anywhere near the minimum wage! But no one seems to have realised that yet! They just continue to advertise the fact that childcare is sooooo expensive!!

Not really, they are most often here illegally, not paying tax or NI and not mean to be working here. They are lucky they get paid anything to be honest.

Koala
28-01-2014, 07:47 PM
Today I worked all day for the princely sum of £2.22 per hour :panic: Somrthings not right somewhere.

xx

less your tax that you gladly collect and pay to the government for providing so many obstacles, hindrances and bureaucratic legislation to extend your daily workload without remuneration just to make it all worthwhile :thumbsup:

Simona
28-01-2014, 08:00 PM
Today I worked all day for the princely sum of £2.22 per hour :panic: Somrthings not right somewhere.

xx

That is the lowest fee rate I have ever come across...my goodness!
Maybe we should all up our rates and make the govt think again...the fact we charge such low fees has not helped us really...govt thinks we do out of the goodness of our hearts....my view!

AliceK
28-01-2014, 08:30 PM
That is the lowest fee rate I have ever come across...my goodness!
Maybe we should all up our rates and make the govt think again...the fact we charge such low fees has not helped us really...govt thinks we do out of the goodness of our hearts....my view!

No that is not my hourly rate but after taking off my expenses that is what I am left with per hour for today. Having done my tax return recently I was shocked at just how much my expenses have gone up - food, heating etc over the past year, but at least it has focused my mind as to what % of my hourly rate is actually mine before tax / NI obviously.

xxxx

MrsP2C
28-01-2014, 08:59 PM
That is the lowest fee rate I have ever come across...my goodness! Maybe we should all up our rates and make the govt think again...the fact we charge such low fees has not helped us really...govt thinks we do out of the goodness of our hearts....my view!

I agree with you on this - I'm shocked sometimes when I see how little some people charge (presumably because that's the going rate) & do think if CM's charged a higher rate we would sit closer to a (far more highly regarded) nanny than daytime babysitter.

I think paying someone to care for your child & expecting a professional service for less than £4 a hour (I actually think sub £5 but realise this might not be realistic) is ludicrous & some CM's should be reviewing fees urgently.

Simona
28-01-2014, 09:29 PM
I agree with you on this - I'm shocked sometimes when I see how little some people charge (presumably because that's the going rate) & do think if CM's charged a higher rate we would sit closer to a (far more highly regarded) nanny than daytime babysitter.

I think paying someone to care for your child & expecting a professional service for less than £4 a hour (I actually think sub £5 but realise this might not be realistic) is ludicrous & some CM's should be reviewing fees urgently.

My thinking is the minimum we should charge is £5 across the country...multiplied by 3 children = £15 ...take 50% off for tax and expenses and we get £7.50 ph which is near the living wage..

we have a right to a decent living and cannot continue to subsidise childcare for 'ANY' govt...the more we do it the less they will invest properly in childcare

hectors house
28-01-2014, 10:00 PM
My thinking is the minimum we should charge is £5 across the country...multiplied by 3 children = £15 ...take 50% off for tax and expenses and we get £7.50 ph which is near the living wage..

we have a right to a decent living and cannot continue to subsidise childcare for 'ANY' govt...the more we do it the less they will invest properly in childcare

How can parents who only earn minimum wage themselves pay £5 an hour per child?

unalindura77
28-01-2014, 10:16 PM
I don't get out of bed for less than £8 per child :clapping::clapping::clapping:

Expensive yes but worth it, apparently so!

MrsP2C
28-01-2014, 10:38 PM
How can parents who only earn minimum wage themselves pay £5 an hour per child?

You can claim up to £175 a week for 1 child, £300 for 2 under working tax credits then there's child tax credits, child benefit, 15 free hours for EY, childcare vouchers, sibling discounts (more viable if the usual rate is higher) and of course some employers have on-site crèches & nurseries. Of course these won't all apply to everyone but I fail to see why childminders are (rightly to a degree) forced to be professional & offer the same learning opportunities as a nursery but should charge so much less.

Simona
29-01-2014, 07:59 AM
How can parents who only earn minimum wage themselves pay £5 an hour per child?

2 parents earning the minimum wage means they earn £6.31 x2 = £12.62
In addition to that they have a variety of benefits the state provides for them...and C/Vouchers too if their employer is in the scheme...not sure about anyone else but I personally get no benefits, subsidise childcare and am fed up being told the utter lie we are 'too expensive', we need to be affordable and high quality
I have asked this before :affordable to whom? if delivery is not affordable to me I will opt out
High quality is not cheap...try buying an organic chicken for £3!!!

Childcare is a family requirement so both parents should contribute not just the 'mother' as we usually hear...why do we always quote the mothers' wages and leave the father out?
the same way I think both parents contribute towards the mortgage, food and utilities bills
we should also respect those mothers who wish to stay at home and nurture their babies in their ever decreasing childhood.


I hope the minimum wage gets raisesd...in fact I am a huge fan of the living wage....but that is where we have gone wrong because we worry about the demand side and never the supply one: the result is CMs are leaving in droves, many contemplate something else and the govt continues to see us as the charities that subsidise childcare for them.....entirely my view of course!

We have put ourselves in a very vulnerable position because we do our job out of commitment and love...yes...maybe.... but our families and standards of living matter too....our mortgage needs to be paid and food put on the table

We have gone on and on complaining about this and that...writing letters...trying to engage with the powers that be ...it has got us nowhere, maybe we should do like the French and take to the street in protest...then the govt might take notice

So yes while I totally understand that parents are on the minimum wage my question is: why should I earn less than that?
I refuse to be reassured that £3.50 is fine for delivering high quality education and care....

In addition I have no idea what parents can claim from the state, I have no idea of tax credits, I never get involved with parents' benefits...it is their business not mine...how many CMs also keep their earnings low so they can continue to claim Tax Credits...that is not what some of us do...so lets think again before saying 'but how can parents afford it'?
My area is affluent ...my fees affordable to these families and yet they have moaned at times while sending their children to private schools and living in £1,000,000 house
So yes let the state help the needy...that is what the wonderful welfare system is for..... but lets stop subsidising the well off


once again entirely my view!!

AliceK
29-01-2014, 08:15 AM
2 parents earning the minimum wage means they earn £6.31 x2 = £12.62
In addition to that they have a variety of benefits the state provides for them...and C/Vouchers too if their employer is in the scheme...not sure about anyone else but I personally get no benefits, subsidise childcare and am fed up being told the utter lie we are 'too expensive', we need to be affordable and high quality
I have asked this before :affordable to whom? if delivery is not affordable to me I will opt out
High quality is not cheap...try buying an organic chicken for £3!!!

Childcare is a family requirement so both parents should contribute not just the 'mother' as we usually hear...why do we always quote the mothers' wages and leave the father out?
the same way I think both parents contribute towards the mortgage, food and utilities bills
we should also respect those mothers who wish to stay at home and nurture their babies in their ever decreasing childhood.


I hope the minimum wage gets raisesd...in fact I am a huge fan of the living wage....but that is where we have gone wrong because we worry about the demand side and never the supply one: the result is CMs are leaving in droves, many contemplate something else and the govt continues to see us as the charities that subsidise childcare for them.....entirely my view of course!

We have put ourselves in a very vulnerable position because we do our job out of commitment and love...yes...maybe.... but our families and standards of living matter too....our mortgage needs to be paid and food put on the table

We have gone on and on complaining about this and that...writing letters...trying to engage with the powers that be ...it has got us nowhere, maybe we should do like the French and take to the street in protest...then the govt might take notice

So yes while I totally understand that parents are on the minimum wage my question is: why should I earn less than that?
I refuse to be reassured that £3.50 is fine for delivering high quality education and care....

In addition I have no idea what parents can claim from the state, I have no idea of tax credits, I never get involved with parents' benefits...it is their business not mine...how many CMs also keep their earnings low so they can continue to claim Tax Credits...that is not what some of us do...so lets think again before saying 'but how can parents afford it'?
My area is affluent ...my fees affordable to these families and yet they have moaned at times while sending their children to private schools and living in £1,000,000 house
So yes let the state help the needy...that is what the wonderful welfare system is for..... but lets stop subsidising the well off


once again entirely my view!!

Well said. I agree entirely :thumbsup:

xxxx

Ripeberry
29-01-2014, 08:23 AM
How can parents who only earn minimum wage themselves pay £5 an hour per child?
The whole economy is in mess! Wages are too low to live on, but everyone has to work to pay the mortgage. Unless you are very lucky with helpful rich grandparents (who don't have to work themselves), then you're laughing all the way to the bank. Most other countries help parents with childcare. This situation can't go on.

rickysmiths
29-01-2014, 10:17 AM
Today I worked all day for the princely sum of £2.22 per hour :panic: Somrthings not right somewhere.

xx

But is that wholly true?

I started working as a childminder so I could be at home with my own two children. It wasn't economic for me to go back to work and pay for childcare. While they were little I didn't earn very much per hour because I was restricted to the number of children I could have. However over those years I rarely paid for childcare for them, I saved a fortune on childcare fees and I was at home with them something I wouldn't change for the world. I didn't expect to earn much when they were little and I would never have done it if we had depended on me earning the same as I had as an experience Catering Manager. We had about 4 really tough years and then I was able to have an extra under 5 and I then had more before and after school.

Now they have essentially left home, if I am full I can't complain about my income at all, I am earning double what mt 21 yr old daughter does being paid min wage and she has a longer day than me leaving the house at 7.30am and often not home before 6.30pm.
I have not had to commute to work for the last 20 years and endure the time and cost that incurs. I spend much less on the clothes I need to wear for cm compared to what I needed for work. I can do washing, housework and other home related jobs during my day instead of doing them after work or at the weekends leaving me with more free time. I am much less stressed than I was when I commuted to work.

rickysmiths
29-01-2014, 10:22 AM
How can parents who only earn minimum wage themselves pay £5 an hour per child?

But those parents get help to pay their childcare don't they? They get up to 70% paid for by the government so it is not a realistic statement. So for every £100 of childcare the parent will likely only pay £30 out of their own pocket. My daughter is on min wage in a full time job and she could pay that % without much difficulty. I suspect that someone on min wage is unlikely to have a mortgage and will pay rent for which again they will prob have help?

I have had many single mums on my books and do at the moment and not all of them have been high earners and in fact most far from it but they have managed to pay my fees with help from tax credits. I charge more than £5 per hour as well.

AliceK
29-01-2014, 10:48 AM
But is that wholly true?

I started working as a childminder so I could be at home with my own two children. It wasn't economic for me to go back to work and pay for childcare. While they were little I didn't earn very much per hour because I was restricted to the number of children I could have. However over those years I rarely paid for childcare for them, I saved a fortune on childcare fees and I was at home with them something I wouldn't change for the world. I didn't expect to earn much when they were little and I would never have done it if we had depended on me earning the same as I had as an experience Catering Manager. We had about 4 really tough years and then I was able to have an extra under 5 and I then had more before and after school.

Now they have essentially left home, if I am full I can't complain about my income at all, I am earning double what mt 21 yr old daughter does being paid min wage and she has a longer day than me leaving the house at 7.30am and often not home before 6.30pm.
I have not had to commute to work for the last 20 years and endure the time and cost that incurs. I spend much less on the clothes I need to wear for cm compared to what I needed for work. I can do washing, housework and other home related jobs during my day instead of doing them after work or at the weekends leaving me with more free time. I am much less stressed than I was when I commuted to work.

Oh trust me it's true. I worked from 7.30 - 6pm with one child in the morning and 2 in the afternoon. After doing my latest tax return I can honestly say my expenses are 60% of what I charge. It's not even like I am constantly buying expensive resources either it's basic things like the cost of food, cooking, heating, nappies (yes I provide them) etc etc. Even on my busiest days when I have 3 EY children in the morning and 4 in the afternoon my "gross" pay if you like is only around £5 per hour after taking off expenses.
I have after seeing all this in black and white doing my tax return come to the conclusion that I can do one of 2 things:

1) Stop offering flexibility to shift workers who have a full-time space for part-time pay and instead go back to having full-time children.
2) Seriously cut back on my expenses but I don't see how I CAN cut back much.

I used to have a VERY well paid job which I could "leave behind" come 5.30pm and not worry about it again until I got to the office the next day and yes I had money to burn and NO I do not regret leaving all that to do what I do now and whilst my children are at primary school and whilst my youngest has medical problems I will continue to do this job but I am seriously seriously sick and tired of hearing about how expensive childcare is and people assuming that because we charge £X per hour and we have X number of children that means we must be earning £X'ss. The reality of it is, certainly in my case, that carrying on like this is NOT a sustainable business.

xxx

FussyElmo
29-01-2014, 10:52 AM
But those parents get help to pay their childcare don't they? They get up to 70% paid for by the government so it is not a realistic statement. So for every £100 of childcare the parent will likely only pay £30 out of their own pocket. My daughter is on min wage in a full time job and she could pay that % without much difficulty. I suspect that someone on min wage is unlikely to have a mortgage and will pay rent for which again they will prob have help?

I have had many single mums on my books and do at the moment and not all of them have been high earners and in fact most far from it but they have managed to pay my fees with help from tax credits. I charge more than £5 per hour as well.

I don't think many families with 2 parents working will get 70% of their childcare paid.

Also they wont get help with their rent if they are both working. Yes they may get tax credits but that doesn't dramatically increase the income.

Single parents get more help with childcare tax credits then working couples do.

I was so much better off being a working single mother than I am being part of a working married couple.

rickysmiths
29-01-2014, 11:11 AM
Oh trust me it's true. I worked from 7.30 - 6pm with one child in the morning and 2 in the afternoon. After doing my latest tax return I can honestly say my expenses are 60% of what I charge. It's not even like I am constantly buying expensive resources either it's basic things like the cost of food, cooking, heating, nappies (yes I provide them) etc etc. Even on my busiest days when I have 3 EY children in the morning and 4 in the afternoon my "gross" pay if you like is only around £5 per hour after taking off expenses.
I have after seeing all this in black and white doing my tax return come to the conclusion that I can do one of 2 things:

1) Stop offering flexibility to shift workers who have a full-time space for part-time pay and instead go back to having full-time children.
2) Seriously cut back on my expenses but I don't see how I CAN cut back much.

I used to have a VERY well paid job which I could "leave behind" come 5.30pm and not worry about it again until I got to the office the next day and yes I had money to burn and NO I do not regret leaving all that to do what I do now and whilst my children are at primary school and whilst my youngest has medical problems I will continue to do this job but I am seriously seriously sick and tired of hearing about how expensive childcare is and people assuming that because we charge £X per hour and we have X number of children that means we must be earning £X'ss. The reality of it is, certainly in my case, that carrying on like this is NOT a sustainable business.

xxx

I do feel for you but when I started with my own two as a baby and toddler I had one child every afternoon and all I expected to make was enough money to buy all the birthday and Christmas presents and pay for the rent for two weeks on a cottage in Cornwall and I just about managed to do that.

I must say my expenses are usually 30% or less and I keep an eye as I go through the year not to exceed this. If they were always a lot more than this it would not be worth me working. I lost 3 full timers within 3 months 3 years ago and it was devastating. I have only now three years on, built back up to that with one full timer who started in Sept, a 3 day a week who started in Jan and a 2 day starting in Feb with two after school. My income halved but interestingly even with the fixed costs my expenses still stayed at the 28 to 30% level. It would never be worth my while working if my expenses when over this because I wouldn't be left with any disposable income.

Unlike your job I couldn't always leave it behind when I walked out at the end of the day, I often brought work home with me.

AliceK
29-01-2014, 11:17 AM
I do feel for you but when I started with my own two as a baby and toddler I had one child every afternoon and all I expected to make was enough money to buy all the birthday and Christmas presents and pay for the rent for two weeks on a cottage in Cornwall and I just about managed to do that.

I must say my expenses are usually 30% or less and I keep an eye as I go through the year not to exceed this. If they were always a lot more than this it would not be worth me working. I lost 3 full timers within 3 months 3 years ago and it was devastating. I have only now three years on, built back up to that with one full timer who started in Sept, a 3 day a week who started in Jan and a 2 day starting in Feb with two after school. My income halved but interestingly even with the fixed costs my expenses still stayed at the 28 to 30% level. It would never be worth my while working if my expenses when over this because I wouldn't be left with any disposable income.

Unlike your job I couldn't always leave it behind when I walked out at the end of the day, I often brought work home with me.

How on earth do you keep your expenses below 30%? All the childminders I speak to say theirs are about 50%.

xxxx

bunyip
29-01-2014, 11:18 AM
Not really, they are most often here illegally, not paying tax or NI and not mean to be working here. They are lucky they get paid anything to be honest.

Migrant workers are far more likely to be paying tax/NI and far less likely to be claiming benefit (fraudulent or otherwise) that UK-born people. Those who don't pay tax/NI are frequently unaware this is the case. They are paid cash-in-hand, a supposedly 'net' figure by farmers, gang-masters, agencies, etc. who claim to have made legitimate tax deductions, but who have in reality kept that sum for themselves and kept the whole thing off the books.

There's quite a bit of evidence suggesting the largest group of illegal workers in the UK is still "old commonwealth" young, mainly white people from Australia/New Zealand/South Africa. But if they put a stop to that, you'd never get served in a bar in most of London. :rolleyes:

Simona
29-01-2014, 11:22 AM
I can see that many here are very up to date to what parents can or cannot get as help from the state but we are going round the same issue...that of parents benefits...how does that help our business?

I do not look at parent extra help from the state when I look at my sustainability...what I work out is what fees I need to charge to cover my costs and make a decent living taking into account my setting and the service I offer

As AliceK rightly says we cannot cut on our expenses...whether we have 1 child or 5 some expenses remain far to high...we may be able to cut on food but our insurance does not give us a discount because we have less children...M'ship stays the same...heating goes on whether we have 1 or 5 children

We are looking at this from the wrong angle in my view...parents benefits have nothing to do with us or the fees we charge nor whether immigrants pay tax or otherwise...that's for the state to sort out.

bunyip
29-01-2014, 11:29 AM
I've suggested the overthrown of Late Capitalism in the past, but none of you guys were interested. :(

Tbh, the Uk isn't yet ready for revolution.


.............and anyway, it's raining. :p

dawn100
29-01-2014, 11:43 AM
How on earth do you keep your expenses below 30%? All the childminders I speak to say theirs are about 50%.

xxxx

If you charge a higher hourly rate it can mean the % on expenses is lower,
Eg hourly rate of £3.50 with expenses that work to be £1.50 p/h means your expenses are 42% of income but with the same expenses but a higher hourly rate of £5 it means your expenses are 30%
I aim to keep my expenses to 30% and if I really struggled to do that I would consider putting my fees up, no other buisness in this country would let the cost of expenses rise without passing that on to their customers

AliceK
29-01-2014, 12:02 PM
If you charge a higher hourly rate it can mean the % on expenses is lower,
Eg hourly rate of £3.50 with expenses that work to be £1.50 p/h means your expenses are 42% of income but with the same expenses but a higher hourly rate of £5 it means your expenses are 30%
I aim to keep my expenses to 30% and if I really struggled to do that I would consider putting my fees up, no other buisness in this country would let the cost of expenses rise without passing that on to their customers

That's a good point.

rickysmiths
29-01-2014, 12:20 PM
I don't think many families with 2 parents working will get 70% of their childcare paid.

Also they wont get help with their rent if they are both working. Yes they may get tax credits but that doesn't dramatically increase the income.

Single parents get more help with childcare tax credits then working couples do.

I was so much better off being a working single mother than I am being part of a working married couple.

That may be true but then they have two incomes.

Simona
29-01-2014, 12:21 PM
If anyone files their accounts to HMRC in an Excel format...which you need to keep copies for the last 6 years...there is no way we can say expenses can be kept at 30%
Just a quick comparison to ...say....2010 will show how much everything has gone up while we continue to charge the same fees and the Free offer has stayed roughly the same since it first was introduced
Expenses cannot be calculated against the hourly rate but by adding your annual income and looking at what the expenses are

Petrol, food and utilities have gone up by more than 30%...so have subscriptions, stationery, mobile charges, water, outings are very expensive

Illegal immigrants have been mentioned below...the reason why some do not pay tax and NI is because they are used for work on a 'cash in hand' basis...therefore those employers failed to pay their share of tax and NI...it goes on everywhere

This was very obvious last night in the BBC news report where we could clearly see the employer handing out £40 to the workers...no PAYE...just cash in hand so we have potentially double fraud from the employee and the employer

I would like to see Ian Duncan Smiths chasing those employers instead of inflicting misery on the genuine needy in our country by slashing real welfare.....

hectors house
29-01-2014, 12:43 PM
But those parents get help to pay their childcare don't they? They get up to 70% paid for by the government so it is not a realistic statement. So for every £100 of childcare the parent will likely only pay £30 out of their own pocket. My daughter is on min wage in a full time job and she could pay that % without much difficulty. I suspect that someone on min wage is unlikely to have a mortgage and will pay rent for which again they will prob have help?

I have had many single mums on my books and do at the moment and not all of them have been high earners and in fact most far from it but they have managed to pay my fees with help from tax credits. I charge more than £5 per hour as well.

I don't think many people get the 70% like they used to when first introduced - although when I returned to work after having my first child I only earnt £2.50 paid tax and NI (as the tax allowance was alot lower then), paid the childminder £1 an hour and took home about the same myself, as there wasn't any government help or tax incentives. In my area most childminders charge between £3.50 - £4.00 an hour, so 4 times what I used to pay my childminder 28 years ago, but not many office workers here earn £10 an hour - so wages haven't gone up by 4 times.

I completely agree with what you say though about people who have only got space for one child because their own children are taking up the spaces need to see the whole picture which like you say - free childcare and no commuting costs. The only other alternative is working evenings and weekends in the supermarket while the dad or other family look after the children, meaning you don't get any family time - which I have also done.

I am full, I earn £11.25 an hour and pay very little tax because of expenses - it wouldn't pay me to work say in a nursery on minimum wage, pay tax and NI and have to spend all my spare time doing housework and shopping.

rickysmiths
29-01-2014, 01:23 PM
Migrant workers are far more likely to be paying tax/NI and far less likely to be claiming benefit (fraudulent or otherwise) that UK-born people. Those who don't pay tax/NI are frequently unaware this is the case. They are paid cash-in-hand, a supposedly 'net' figure by farmers, gang-masters, agencies, etc. who claim to have made legitimate tax deductions, but who have in reality kept that sum for themselves and kept the whole thing off the books.

There's quite a bit of evidence suggesting the largest group of illegal workers in the UK is still "old commonwealth" young, mainly white people from Australia/New Zealand/South Africa. But if they put a stop to that, you'd never get served in a bar in most of London. :rolleyes:

I know and I have provided childcare for many who have an excellent work ethic and a fab attitude to education. The ones highlighted on TV as 'only being paid min wage' were not like this though and were working illegally. The old Commonwealth rule may have been true 20-30 years ago but it isn't now. The majority of bar and restaurant workers are now Eastern European and not Australian.

Simona
29-01-2014, 01:35 PM
I know and I have provided childcare for many who have an excellent work ethic and a fab attitude to education. The ones highlighted on TV as 'only being paid min wage' were not like this though and were working illegally. The old Commonwealth rule may have been true 20-30 years ago but it isn't now. The majority of bar and restaurant workers are now Eastern European and not Australian.

Those people in the News were being paid £40 for 7 hrs of work which came to £5.71...below the minimum wage
They were working so in my view justifying the reason why they came to this country: to seek work...what was illegal was the fact they had no contract ...just cash in hand from shifting heavy mattresses that no one else was offered to do who were seeking work from the Job Centre

I hope I got that right from the tv report?

FussyElmo
29-01-2014, 01:51 PM
That may be true but then they have two incomes.

yes that's true but that's why people think childcare is so expensive.

2 parents earning minimum wage. They have 1 child but the childcare is the same price as minimum wage (suggested above) so they now only have 1 wage. Yes they are entitled to tax credits but that doesn't cover the wage they have paid out. So then starts the thinking that childcare is expensive. Heaven forbid they have more than 1 child needing childcare.

So figure are 2 parents earning min wage working 40 hours earns £2019 a month. If they pay £4.50 an hour for childcare is £720 so then take away rent rough estimate £500 a month. Leaving then £799 a month for everything else. This is why people consider childcare expensive yes they may get some benefits to help top up their wages.

Its not always about childcare being expensive its how its perceived :(

rickysmiths
29-01-2014, 01:55 PM
How on earth do you keep your expenses below 30%? All the childminders I speak to say theirs are about 50%.

xxxx

Very easily I don't keep that much of a check on it it seems to be the natural level. Your fixed costs are not that high Insurance, IOC, Ofsted Registration, First Aid Training and Child Protection Training are the only Compulsory things I can think you have to have irrespective of the number of children you have or don't have in your care.

£44 + (or £21 + Pacey membership £60), £35, £35 FA say £100 by 3 £33pa CP £30 so £10pa

so annual fixed costs would be approx £157 to £194 even if you had no children on the role for a time these are the costs you would have to incur to keep your Registration 'live'. Approx £3.27 to £4.04 per week allowing for 4 weeks annual holiday a year. Now please tell me that unless you are unlucky enough to have no children or very few hours you cannot afford this as an expense?

Even if you had the equivalent of one child for 40 hours a week this works out at between 8p and 10p per hour.

You are then allowed if you are working 40 hours to off set some of your heat and light costs in your expenses (if you are not working at all these would be your own costs anyway). My 33% is currently approx £51.15 per month

Food I calculate per meal currently 25p per snack, £75p per breakfast and £75p for lunch and £1.50 for dinner so if a child is with me 3 meals a day approx £3.25 per day so £16.25 per week.

If I have a child 40 hours a week say on £3.00 per hour that is £120 so £40 in expenses as a max. With the above I have used £20.25 which leaves £19.75 for paperwork, crafts, petrol any outing costs which is a lot.

Any toy replacement is covered under wear and tear and I don't usually spend more than £150 to 200 on any new ones in a year so less than £5 pw I then spend approx £100pa on sand, compost, seeds etc so another £2.50pw. So I still haven't spent the £40 pw and that is only for one child and a lot of the resources don't double if you have two but even if they do then I am still well within my 30%. If you charge more than £3ph then you have more income but your expenses don't always cost more.

I find it really hard to see how people manage to spend more than approx 30%. It is a is a myth that the more you spend the less tax you pay because if you do that you only gain 20% and your income is a lot less. To be honest I would rather pay a bit more Tax and then have more clear income than buy loads of stuff I don't need.

Koala
29-01-2014, 02:10 PM
Very easily I don't keep that much of a check on it it seems to be the natural level. Your fixed costs are not that high Insurance, IOC, Ofsted Registration, First Aid Training and Child Protection Training are the only Compulsory things I can think you have to have irrespective of the number of children you have or don't have in your care.

£44 + (or £21 + Pacey membership £60), £35, £35 FA say £100 by 3 £33pa CP £30 so £10pa

so annual fixed costs would be approx £157 to £194 even if you had no children on the role for a time these are the costs you would have to incur to keep your Registration 'live'. Approx £3.27 to £4.04 per week allowing for 4 weeks annual holiday a year. Now please tell me that unless you are unlucky enough to have no children or very few hours you cannot afford this as an expense?

Even if you had the equivalent of one child for 40 hours a week this works out at between 8p and 10p per hour.

You are then allowed if you are working 40 hours to off set some of your heat and light costs in your expenses (if you are not working at all these would be your own costs anyway). My 33% is currently approx £51.15 per month

Food I calculate per meal currently 25p per snack, £75p per breakfast and £75p for lunch and £1.50 for dinner so if a child is with me 3 meals a day approx £3.25 per day so £16.25 per week.

If I have a child 40 hours a week say on £3.00 per hour that is £120 so £40 in expenses as a max. With the above I have used £20.25 which leaves £19.75 for paperwork, crafts, petrol any outing costs which is a lot.

Any toy replacement is covered under wear and tear and I don't usually spend more than £150 to 200 on any new ones in a year so less than £5 pw I then spend approx £100pa on sand, compost, seeds etc so another £2.50pw. So I still haven't spent the £40 pw and that is only for one child and a lot of the resources don't double if you have two but even if they do then I am still well within my 30%. If you charge more than £3ph then you have more income but your expenses don't always cost more.

I find it really hard to see how people manage to spend more than approx 30%. It is a is a myth that the more you spend the less tax you pay because if you do that you only gain 20% and your income is a lot less. To be honest I would rather pay a bit more Tax and then have more clear income than buy loads of stuff I don't need.

Who pays for your cots, bedding, bibs, high chairs, children's furniture, pushchairs, car seats, internet, printer, ink, computer, journals, diaries, disinfectant, sterilizing equipment, training (CPD), display boards, continual cultural and festival activities, birthday and christmas pressies etc.... etc..... etc.... there are so many other expenses - don't get me wrong I do heavily invest in my setting but I can definitely say 30% would not touch my expenses - it may cover my consumable items on a daily basis(I include everything) i.e. food, toiletries, cleaning products, arts and crafts and maybe amenities.

FussyElmo
29-01-2014, 02:11 PM
I agree with Rickys on the expenses. I think people think the more children you have the more you expenses will be. Whereas its usually the other way round. Other than food most other expenses are the same if you have 1 full time child or 3.

So for example of you have one full time child and you need a new pushchair that's a sizable part of your income gone for the week its not if you have 3 children.

Expenses are what they are if you can justify them is investigated :)

dawn100
29-01-2014, 02:19 PM
If anyone files their accounts to HMRC in an Excel format...which you need to keep copies for the last 6 years...there is no way we can say expenses can be kept at 30%
Just a quick comparison to ...say....2010 will show how much everything has gone up while we continue to charge the same fees and the Free offer has stayed roughly the same since it first was introduced
Expenses cannot be calculated against the hourly rate but by adding your annual income and looking at what the expenses are

Petrol, food and utilities have gone up by more than 30%...so have subscriptions, stationery, mobile charges, water, outings are very expensive

Illegal immigrants have been mentioned below...the reason why some do not pay tax and NI is because they are used for work on a 'cash in hand' basis...therefore those employers failed to pay their share of tax and NI...it goes on everywhere

This was very obvious last night in the BBC news report where we could clearly see the employer handing out £40 to the workers...no PAYE...just cash in hand so we have potentially double fraud from the employee and the employer

I would like to see Ian Duncan Smiths chasing those employers instead of inflicting misery on the genuine needy in our country by slashing real welfare.....

When I done the example showing expenses against an hourly rate I was trying to show how when you charge a higher hourly rate the % that is on expenses is lower I wasn't saying that's how you calculate expenses.
I have not been running years so can't compare how costs have gone up but I make the most of groups that are free or cost very little, I go to the park, woods etc try drive as little as possible, get resources from scrap stores, people are always donating toys, I make my own story bags and music bags, I pay for annual membership to places and all this to try to keep my expenses around 30% mark, but I come from having previously managed in the retail trade so have been quite business minded from the start. How many cm have a budget each month? I do but i have yet to come across another cm who does. But even though I am careful with what I spend the kids dont miss out on anything, i have more resources than fit in my house, half are stired in the attic, i go to groups twice a week, in winter i also go to soft play at least once a month and sometimes once a week if the weather is really bad and we go to the woods or park every day, craft at least twice a week and then sensory play on the other days.
When tesco's puts the price of food and fuel up do they think how will people afford it- no they put their prices up so they are still making a profit.

dawn100
29-01-2014, 02:24 PM
Who pays for your cots, bedding, bibs, high chairs, children's furniture, pushchairs, car seats, internet, printer, ink, computer, journals, diaries, disinfectant, sterilizing equipment, training (CPD), display boards, continual cultural and festival activities, birthday and christmas pressies etc.... etc..... etc.... there are so many other expenses - don't get me wrong I do heavily invest in my setting but I can definitely say 30% would not touch my expenses - it may cover my consumable items on a daily basis(I include everything) i.e. food, toiletries, cleaning products, arts and crafts and maybe amenities.

Other than pushchairs and car seats all other equipment I have either had from my own or been donated by others. In my council all training I had attended had been free or heavily subsidised. I keep printing to a minimum and email as much as possible.

Simona
29-01-2014, 02:24 PM
it is not really to do with what is investigated...it is to do with your business and what you put through as legitimate expenses:
Direct costs
Indirect costs
Motor running
Telecomms
utilities
depreciation

New Resources should not all be part of your Wear and Tear but purchase of equipment needed for the business...again we do things differently...
maybe someone would like to add the expenses incurred ..they will be more than 30%

in addition what we get back for gas, electricity, water, council tax and wear and tear has not changed for the last 30 years...it is not adequate to cover the cost of running a business from home

supermumy
29-01-2014, 02:29 PM
I agree I don't see how peoples expenses are that high!
I do same above when it comes to food etc
Cuts etc how many times do you really buy them it isn't like your buying every year

I look for bargains for my settings and I certainly don't go over board on the equipment

I'm a single mum and I'm making a living out of childminding quite well :)

mama2three
29-01-2014, 02:33 PM
My expenses are much much higher. im in an area where rates are very low , but my expenses are just as high.
My meal costs alone are around £5 per child per day , 3 meals , snacks , formula etc....
Nappies , wipes and baby items are included here , I spend a lot on resources , outings , groups etc.
I could cut some costs if Im honest , but feel it would affect the level of service I offer and so would be detrimental overall.
My expenses last year were around 60% , so double what Rickysmiths were. But wholly justifiable and 'accounted for' should the need arise. Ive made a business decision to offer a service where rates are inclusive of food , nappies , outings etc - all within a daily rate of £35 for up to 11 hours 7am to 630pm. Its working well for me at the moment .
yes I could probably earn more outside the home ...but then Id have to pay childcare for ds so would be worse off overall.
I don't care whether joe blogs thinks im earning a fortune. my parents are happy to pay for a quality service , and im happy with what Im earning overall. Whether the woman down the street thinks Im loaded is of no interest to me. If the people who voice these opinions are pushed they usually admit they couldn't do our job for any amount of money!

rickysmiths
29-01-2014, 04:56 PM
Who pays for your cots, bedding, bibs, high chairs, children's furniture, pushchairs, car seats, internet, printer, ink, computer, journals, diaries, disinfectant, sterilizing equipment, training (CPD), display boards, continual cultural and festival activities, birthday and christmas pressies etc.... etc..... etc.... there are so many other expenses - don't get me wrong I do heavily invest in my setting but I can definitely say 30% would not touch my expenses - it may cover my consumable items on a daily basis(I include everything) i.e. food, toiletries, cleaning products, arts and crafts and maybe amenities.



The short answer is I do.

However there are only so many cots, buggies etc you need. I have only ever bought 3 travel cots in 20 years of minding and the most expensive was £55 and the newest was £29.95 from Kiddi care.

I had two high chairs when I started minding, they were my own childrens I have only ever bought two more when those wore out, they cost £40 each and have been going strong for 14 years and still are.

I have had 6 buggies in 20 years one Sliver Cross, the most expensive but it was my daughters and I still use it 21 years on. A Maclaren single which I bought second hand for my daughter and it lasted me 7 years when I replaced it with another for approx £80. When I started I bought a secondhand silver cross double buggy for £75 (I found the add from the paper just before Christmas when I was sorting out!) and I replaced this with a MaClaren double for £199 in 2001 and I am still using it, used it on the school run today. About 5 years ago I bought a single MaClaren which goes flat for sleeping and spent £95.

My car Seats are Britax ones which cost £89, £90, £120 and I have 2 high backed boosters for £30 each these have all been bought over the last 10 years.

In the last 10 years I have spent £300 on a shed and have bought 2 printers for approx £80 each.

So you see I don't in the bigger picture spend a massive amount. I worked out a couple of weeks ago that the paperwork needed to start a child so parents Contracts etc, LJs costs £27. The on going costs of printer ink etc is easily covered by the £17 extra a week though I have a bit more because I charge more than £3ph. LJ and food and craft etc costs are proportional to the number of children you have.

I costed in First Aid and Child Protection. I prob spend another £100 to £150 on PD each year though a couple of years ago I spent an additional £250 to do my Level 3 (LA paid the rest).

Even so I haven't gone over the 30% in 10 years + and before that I don't think I claimed enough so I am glad I started to use an accountant she has reduced my tax a lot.

My average Expenses are £6-8,000 a year but have been as much as £10,000 when I had 4 under 5s full time and 2 before and after school.

Koala
29-01-2014, 05:50 PM
Wow, I don't have any of the equipment I had when I started 10 years ago, they have all been replaced more than once, twice even three times.

hectors house
29-01-2014, 06:26 PM
[QUOTE=rickysmiths;1337874]The short answer is I do.

My car Seats are Britax ones which cost £89, £90, £120 and I have 2 high backed boosters for £30 each these have all been bought over the last 10 years.

QUOTE]

You may want to check that your car seats meet the current necessary EU standards - I found a britax website that lists the numbers on the seats that are still allowed to be used - I checked my 3 seats as they are all between 6 -8 years old and found that one of them annoyingly the one that is only 6 years old, doesn't meet current standards - so I am in the process of trying to find another one slim enough to fit 3 seats across the back of my car. Quite annoyed as a parent recently offered me a Britax seat and I told her that I'm not allowed to have 2nd hand seats and she gave it to someone else.

http://www.britax.co.uk/safety-centre/regulations/regulations

Child Safety Standard – ECE label
All car seats must display an ECE R44/04 certification label to indicate they comply with standard safety requirement.

Year after year, our child car seats exceed the European Test Standard for Child Restraints ECE R 44 introduced in 1982. The constantly upgraded requirements of the standard clearly show the change which has taken place in child safety.

From April 2008, all child car seats that were manufactured before 1995 and approved to the ECE R Standard Regulations 44/01 and 44/02 are no longer legal and must not be used.

All BRITAX child car seats are tested and approved to the current Child
Safety Standard ECE R 44/04, shown by the first two numbers on the approval number on the orange approval label (ECE-label).

Explanation of the ECE-label

shows for which category the child seat has been approved
approved for weight
"Y" shows that this child seat has a 5-point harness system with crotch strap
European Approval indicator
indication for country in which the approval was obtained (1=Germany, 2=France, 3=Italy, 4=the Netherlands etc.)
Approval number. The first two numbers show to which version ECE R 44 the child seat has been approved (in this case ECE R 44/04)
current number

Koala
29-01-2014, 06:29 PM
like Hectors House said, also I was under the impression that it was good practice to replace every 3 years because of aging materials, stress on padding and the endurance of the polystyrene in the seats and also the plastics can age and become brittle over time, being in very hot and very cold cars. Sorry to deliver an expensive post. :(

Simona
29-01-2014, 06:37 PM
Some costs are not proportionate to the number of children actually on roll because they will be incurred even if we have one child in our care ...they are part of direct or indirect expenses

Sorry but that is true...
Training will be an expense whether we have 10 children or just the one
The same goes for printing Ofsted factsheets...insurance, m'ship, broadband, use of computer and much more

Tazmin68
29-01-2014, 06:59 PM
I replaced all of my car seats in the last 6 months and boosters all were over 3 years old and three were not displaying the correct safety certificates.

rickysmiths
29-01-2014, 08:37 PM
it is not really to do with what is investigated...it is to do with your business and what you put through as legitimate expenses:
Direct costs
Indirect costs
Motor running
Telecomms
utilities
depreciation

New Resources should not all be part of your Wear and Tear but purchase of equipment needed for the business...again we do things differently...
maybe someone would like to add the expenses incurred ..they will be more than 30%

in addition what we get back for gas, electricity, water, council tax and wear and tear has not changed for the last 30 years...it is not adequate to cover the cost of running a business from home

Mine are not more than 30% unless there is a good reason because I budget so I don't go over that %.

What we get back for gas and Electric is exactly the same as 20 years ago a % so it is now more because the cost of utilities has gone up. We claim up to 33% of the increased bills. Same with Council Tax mine is now 10% of £146 a month instead of the £70 a month 20 years ago, so I am off setting £1.46 a month instead of 70p.

rickysmiths
29-01-2014, 08:41 PM
[QUOTE=rickysmiths;1337874]The short answer is I do.

My car Seats are Britax ones which cost £89, £90, £120 and I have 2 high backed boosters for £30 each these have all been bought over the last 10 years.

QUOTE]

You may want to check that your car seats meet the current necessary EU standards - I found a britax website that lists the numbers on the seats that are still allowed to be used - I checked my 3 seats as they are all between 6 -8 years old and found that one of them annoyingly the one that is only 6 years old, doesn't meet current standards - so I am in the process of trying to find another one slim enough to fit 3 seats across the back of my car. Quite annoyed as a parent recently offered me a Britax seat and I told her that I'm not allowed to have 2nd hand seats and she gave it to someone else.

http://www.britax.co.uk/safety-centre/regulations/regulations

Child Safety Standard – ECE label
All car seats must display an ECE R44/04 certification label to indicate they comply with standard safety requirement.

Year after year, our child car seats exceed the European Test Standard for Child Restraints ECE R 44 introduced in 1982. The constantly upgraded requirements of the standard clearly show the change which has taken place in child safety.

From April 2008, all child car seats that were manufactured before 1995 and approved to the ECE R Standard Regulations 44/01 and 44/02 are no longer legal and must not be used.

All BRITAX child car seats are tested and approved to the current Child
Safety Standard ECE R 44/04, shown by the first two numbers on the approval number on the orange approval label (ECE-label).

Explanation of the ECE-label

shows for which category the child seat has been approved
approved for weight
"Y" shows that this child seat has a 5-point harness system with crotch strap
European Approval indicator
indication for country in which the approval was obtained (1=Germany, 2=France, 3=Italy, 4=the Netherlands etc.)
Approval number. The first two numbers show to which version ECE R 44 the child seat has been approved (in this case ECE R 44/04)
current number


Mine are fine I do check regularly. i of them is a Britax 123 Evolva and it is for use from 9mth to 12 years so I would hope it would have a life of at least 12yrs as long as it is not dropped or in an accident. The two high backed boosters are under 3 years old. I regularly check the other two older Britax seats and they are fine now but I am planning to change them over the next couple of years.

Simona
29-01-2014, 09:04 PM
Mine are not more than 30% unless there is a good reason because I budget so I don't go over that %.

What we get back for gas and Electric is exactly the same as 20 years ago a % so it is now more because the cost of utilities has gone up. We claim up to 33% of the increased bills. Same with Council Tax mine is now 10% of £146 a month instead of the £70 a month 20 years ago, so I am off setting £1.46 a month instead of 70p.

That is what I meant...we get exactly the same 'percentage' as 20 or more years ago...a little increase...say to 20%... would help as an incentive
Take water...in my case 10% of the monthly bill is £3.91 but if I had a water meter that would be insufficient because children use lots of water during the day while none would be used if I went out to work at 8am and returned 6pm.
Same goes for heating and lighting...no usage if I went out to work

Children make redecorating necessary more often than if we did not have them...it is costly but not properly rewarded
Same with Wear and Tear...the wearing out is far more than the 10% we can claim...

For those who mind on non domestic premises all their expenses would be claimed...
if we want to attract more cms we need to reward them better and I would start with reviewing our tax free allowances....sorry but the govt cannot expect us to subsidise education and not take care of us some way or another.

I want to see MPs claims being reduced to our pitiful levels having seen the thousands of £££ they claim for their 2nd homes...I deviate I know but I am getting fed up with us giving it all and getting little back

rickysmiths
29-01-2014, 09:39 PM
like Hectors House said, also I was under the impression that it was good practice to replace every 3 years because of aging materials, stress on padding and the endurance of the polystyrene in the seats and also the plastics can age and become brittle over time, being in very hot and very cold cars. Sorry to deliver an expensive post. :(

That is a complete myth driven by American standards not European ones.

How could a company market a seat that is suitable for 9mths to 5-6 yrs or like the Evolva 123 which is for 9mths to 12 yrs if a parents couldn't reasonably expect to keep the seat that long? Would that not be false description?

rickysmiths
29-01-2014, 09:50 PM
Some costs are not proportionate to the number of children actually on roll because they will be incurred even if we have one child in our care ...they are part of direct or indirect expenses

Sorry but that is true...
Training will be an expense whether we have 10 children or just the one
The same goes for printing Ofsted factsheets...insurance, m'ship, broadband, use of computer and much more

That is right but apart from First Aid and Child protection no courses are compulsory so maybe if you are way down on numbers for a period you reduce the number of courses you do? That was what I had to do when my numbers suddenly went down, I had to be selective and do less for a while.

I worked out the basic costs that you would have to pay to maintain your registration and they were up to £4 pw depending on who you have your PLI with. If you have one child for 40 hours a week that is less than a £1 per day very little if you think what you would be paid for 40 hours

Koala
30-01-2014, 07:38 AM
That is a complete myth driven by American standards not European ones.

How could a company market a seat that is suitable for 9mths to 5-6 yrs or like the Evolva 123 which is for 9mths to 12 yrs if a parents couldn't reasonably expect to keep the seat that long? Would that not be false description?

I see where you are coming from but I don't think you can expect a car seat to last for 12 years for example just because it is suitable for 9m to 12 years age range - surely this is just reference to the approx suitability of the seat for the child size?

From my experience child car seats do get worn from the child (picky fingers at the polystyrene :D ) little toilet accidents and general climate stress from being at very hot and very cold temperatures in the car - so I would not think it unreasonable to replace car seats periodically but I suppose this can be subject to personal preference (I know I would want my child to have a fresh car seat periodically).

You say it is a complete myth, well I can't dispute this nor can I condone it as I do not have any hard evidence to counteract your statement, however, imo and from experience I do not think a child care seat would be suitable to be used for 12 years just because that is the age range it fits and No I don't think it's false description (it may well be suitable for 9m - 12yr) but I think maybe!? you have interpreted the description incorrectly :thumbsup:. to mean that it will last for 12 years :thumbsup:

Koala
30-01-2014, 07:56 AM
That is right but apart from First Aid and Child protection no courses are compulsory so maybe if you are way down on numbers for a period you reduce the number of courses you do? That was what I had to do when my numbers suddenly went down, I had to be selective and do less for a while.

I worked out the basic costs that you would have to pay to maintain your registration and they were up to £4 pw depending on who you have your PLI with. If you have one child for 40 hours a week that is less than a £1 per day very little if you think what you would be paid for 40 hours

I admire your budgeting, however, I would not be able to implement it and provide what I do, personally I would not consciously be able to skimp on training or anything for that matter and this is probably why my expenses are higher than yours. Please don't think I am judging what is BEST, I am just highlighting how different we all work. I don't know how you can sustain a childcare environment for £4 pw - I spend that on toilet roll and tissues in just one week :D . Never mind calculating all the rest.

I do think I could take a leaf out of your book about 'cutting my cloth accordingly' but like the economy - I am always hoping for better!!! :D

Simona
30-01-2014, 08:15 AM
We differ so much in opinion but I can see all points of view...expenses is another area we have different opinions and I am sure that some one will say ...we are all so different!!!! Yes we are
But at what point will all CMs have something in common??

There is also a difference between expenses and our free allowances which have not been well discussed

As some of the costs we incur are actually the same for all of us across the country...why don't we present some facts and figures now rather than individual ways of doing things???

Tazmin68
30-01-2014, 10:33 AM
Yes some training is mandatory with regards to ofsted. However the LA may put additional requirements in my case because I look after children under childcare schemes through children's centres and social services I have extra costs for example both of our safeguarding courses have to be updated every two years as well as food hygiene and all the CRBs / DBS have to be redone every three years also. It is expected that we take advantage of any new training if it is offered if mandatory or not.

mummyMia
30-01-2014, 10:49 AM
I look after two children, one is a fulltimer and the other does 25 hours a week. After subtracting all my expenses, tax, NI and taking into account unpaid holiday I am left with an income of about £1100/month. I have two children of my own, one is school aged and the other is under 5. If I worked fulltime I would have to pay about £1500/month in childcare during the school term and even more during the school holidays. So using an online salary calculator, that means I would need to earn £32 000 a year to have the same take home pay as I currently do, actually it would have to be a bit more as I have not taken into account the higher childcare costs during school holidays. As dh has a good income we are not eligible for any tax credits. I suppose childcare vouchers would make a slight saving. So although my hourly rate is low I am still managing to earn the equivalent of a decent salary and I get to be at home with my children. :)

rickysmiths
31-01-2014, 05:37 AM
I see where you are coming from but I don't think you can expect a car seat to last for 12 years for example just because it is suitable for 9m to 12 years age range - surely this is just reference to the approx suitability of the seat for the child size?

From my experience child car seats do get worn from the child (picky fingers at the polystyrene :D ) little toilet accidents and general climate stress from being at very hot and very cold temperatures in the car - so I would not think it unreasonable to replace car seats periodically but I suppose this can be subject to personal preference (I know I would want my child to have a fresh car seat periodically).

You say it is a complete myth, well I can't dispute this nor can I condone it as I do not have any hard evidence to counteract your statement, however, imo and from experience I do not think a child care seat would be suitable to be used for 12 years just because that is the age range it fits and No I don't think it's false description (it may well be suitable for 9m - 12yr) but I think maybe!? you have interpreted the description incorrectly :thumbsup:. to mean that it will last for 12 years :thumbsup:

Maybe 12 years would be a long time for a cm. However if a parent is investing in a car seat the fact that it can be used fro 9mth to approx 12yrs make be a deciding factor in its purchase as they potentially need only buy one seat. You can usually get replacement covers for car seats so it is easy to renew them if they get worn. I wash my car seat covers regularly or if needed. I have never had a problem with picky fingers on the seats in all my 20 years with my own or any minded children.

rickysmiths
31-01-2014, 05:50 AM
I admire your budgeting, however, I would not be able to implement it and provide what I do, personally I would not consciously be able to skimp on training or anything for that matter and this is probably why my expenses are higher than yours. Please don't think I am judging what is BEST, I am just highlighting how different we all work. I don't know how you can sustain a childcare environment for £4 pw - I spend that on toilet roll and tissues in just one week :D . Never mind calculating all the rest.

I do think I could take a leaf out of your book about 'cutting my cloth accordingly' but like the economy - I am always hoping for better!!! :D

That was what it would cost if there were no children on the role, just to maintain registration. You may spend £4 per week on tissues and loo roll but how many children have used that? It is a tiny amount surely compared to the income from the children who use it?

I take no offence and I am not trying to say one way is better than another. I don't skimp on training even in the low times but if there is something that is put on that I fancy doing rather than need to do I wouldn't do it if times were very lean. I provide every thing apart from nappies. I go out all the time but to places that are free apart from maybe a small parking fee and the cost of the petrol, in lean times I might take a picnic whereas in better times I might buy lunch out.

I guess I approach things the same way I do with the family when we have a lean period. I just cut back a little and watch what I am doing. I have always watched my money because it is no good working for little or nothing and it is easy to get carried away buying resources, I love shopping but I have a huge amount of stuff already so again in lean times I question harder whether I really need the new thing I like.

k-tots
31-01-2014, 07:17 AM
I look after two children, one is a fulltimer and the other does 25 hours a week. After subtracting all my expenses, tax, NI and taking into account unpaid holiday I am left with an income of about £1100/month. I have two children of my own, one is school aged and the other is under 5. If I worked fulltime I would have to pay about £1500/month in childcare during the school term and even more during the school holidays. So using an online salary calculator, that means I would need to earn £32 000 a year to have the same take home pay as I currently do, actually it would have to be a bit more as I have not taken into account the higher childcare costs during school holidays. As dh has a good income we are not eligible for any tax credits. I suppose childcare vouchers would make a slight saving. So although my hourly rate is low I am still managing to earn the equivalent of a decent salary and I get to be at home with my children. :)

Im the same.......we have decided to get the vouchers and send ds to preschool two mornings a week and it is working well for us....but if I had to go out to work....I would be be working for nothing and then still have to find more money x

bunyip
31-01-2014, 07:54 AM
Worth bearing in mind that, working from home and the odd way in which HMRC allow CMs to calculate certain expenses tend to give a slightly skewed picture of them.

One small example: I can claim for heating and lighting while mindees are here, even though I'd still be using the heating and lighting if the mindees were not here and it was just me and the vicar's wife running around naked (well, maybe not the lighting, but I'd maybe turn the heating up a notch. :rolleyes:)

So, given that we're getting tax relief on some items that we'd pay for anyway, our profits can look smaller on paper than the money we actually have available to spend.

If anyone has ever employed an accountant, they've probably been struck by the amount of 'expenses' they managed to find from absolutely nowhere. My first full time job as a wet-behind the-ears Tebbit's cyclist was as an office minion at an accountants. I was stunned by the number of clients who could maintain the most fantastic lifestyles on businesses that never made a p3nny - nor paid a p3nny in tax, naturally. :p

Edited, cos the autocorrect won't let me use the old name for a 1p coin. So, who was the mysterious P3nny who objected to her name being used, and why the guilty conscience? I wonders...................................:rolleye s:

Simona
31-01-2014, 08:48 AM
Worth bearing in mind that, working from home and the odd way in which HMRC allow CMs to calculate certain expenses tend to give a slightly skewed picture of them.

One small example: I can claim for heating and lighting while mindees are here, even though I'd still be using the heating and lighting if the mindees were not here and it was just me and the vicar's wife running around naked (well, maybe not the lighting, but I'd maybe turn the heating up a notch. :rolleyes:)

So, given that we're getting tax relief on some items that we'd pay for anyway, our profits can look smaller on paper than the money we actually have available to spend.

If anyone has ever employed an accountant, they've probably been struck by the amount of 'expenses' they managed to find from absolutely nowhere. My first full time job as a wet-behind the-ears Tebbit's cyclist was as an office minion at an accountants. I was stunned by the number of clients who could maintain the most fantastic lifestyles on businesses that never made a p3nny - nor paid a p3nny in tax, naturally. :p

Edited, cos the autocorrect won't let me use the old name for a 1p coin. So, who was the mysterious P3nny who objected to her name being used, and why the guilty conscience? I wonders...................................:rolleye s:

Better not ask about the ....autocorrect...as you call it...wish it was just that.

For those who use accountants the reason for doing so is not really so they can be 'struck by the amount of expenses they manage to find from absolutely nowhere'...

It is to use those with expertise and knowledge in the field of personal taxation who have a clear idea of what can be claimed and what cannot.
Accountants cost money but some prefer to have that additional expense and peace of mind rather than having to question over and over how to do accounts, file them, missing the submission deadline, what is allowed or otherwise....

One look at the other section in this forum tells us how many have a go but sometimes are unsure...and how many conflicting replies and points of view we get
Are we claiming what is legitimate? ...of course we are by following the guidance....or missing on other benefits we know nothing about?

My view is let those qualified do it for you...but, of course, some will say 'they are very expensive'...not necessarily !
It depends what value you put on their fee

Just think about it a minute...a woman or man decide to become a cm because it will suit their lifestyle and they can look after their children while growing up
They apply...drown under the red tape....get trained ...get registered and off they go...they are now cms!!!!

But no one told them they also have to become accountants and try to manage something that is really not their expertise by following online guidance, or train via webinars or attend brief training sessions that have no potential to cover the intricacies of 'accountancy and personal taxation'

Qualified accountant will be aware of the benefits of working from home and ensure their clients claim what is 'legitimate'
I have used accountants for a long time...first as owner and manager of my preschool and now as cm...there is a vast difference between what can be claimed for the former compared to the latter

So the message is we should not try to think we know best in the field of taxation and allow those who are do their job unless we wish to really look minutely at the legislation that covers this complex matter....totally my view of course!

Having said all that ...I wonder where Truss got the idea that CMs need support with running their business? wherever it came from...she has now found the perfect solution: the agency will do it for them!!

bunyip
31-01-2014, 09:11 AM
I'm not disputing the skills of accountants. I'm just trying to explain why some CMs may have widely different on-paper expenses to others.

Also, I'm concerned that some might look at their balance sheets and think "OMG - this isn't worth doing."It's easy for CMs to fail to recognise that a set of accounts, drawn up for the purposes of submitting a tax return, are not necessarily an accurate reflection of the sum of spendy-buttons available to that CM when they reach the wine merchants. :rolleyes:

The rules on taxation and expenses were never designed to be fair or make perfect sense. They are merely rules.

Just ask Rosie Redknapp. :rolleyes:

Simona
31-01-2014, 09:24 AM
I'm not disputing the skills of accountants. I'm just trying to explain why some CMs may have widely different on-paper expenses to others.

Also, I'm concerned that some might look at their balance sheets and think "OMG - this isn't worth doing."It's easy for CMs to fail to recognise that a set of accounts, drawn up for the purposes of submitting a tax return, are not necessarily an accurate reflection of the sum of spendy-buttons available to that CM when they reach the wine merchants. :rolleyes:

The rules on taxation and expenses were never designed to be fair or make perfect sense. They are merely rules.

Just ask Rosie Redknapp. :rolleyes:

I agree Bunyip...CMs expenses will vary according to their setting and many other factors...for instance those who have children of their own and those who have not, number of children they care for, the time when they may have less on their books while still paying for expenses that will make them look at their figures and say exactly what you have said: OMG is this worth doing?

Certainly an interesting subject to debate

manjay
31-01-2014, 10:26 AM
Very interesting!

I think our own personal attitudes and circumstances also have a huge part to play. We all have different attitudes to spending and different responsibilities within our own personal lives. I am in the very fortunate position that our family budget would work very well without my income so consequently if I see a resource I want I will just get it. This may be very different for a family who very much relies on the income from childminding. Neither way is right or wrong!

I have been working with our Local Authority over the last couple of months as they have been evaluating how much they pay settings who provide the two year old funding. I think they have been genuinely shocked with the figures that have come out of the costing exercise and have now agreed to increase the session fees by 33%.

I do use an accountant but that is mainly because my husband is also self employed and as we both work from home it gets a little complicated. I do most of the work for my set of accounts so my bill is quite small but the peace of mind of having them checked by a professional is worth it in my opinion.

Koala
31-01-2014, 10:49 AM
Your funny bunyip, but

Due to childminding I have my heating and lighting (old house with 2 ft walls and need lights on) on 6am - 9pm 15hrs (at the mo because it is so cold even though I try to keep my clothes on :blush: and keep the vicars wife away ) - I think if I was working elsewhere the heating/lighting would be on 6.7am and 6-9pm - 4hrs - but can only claim 33% of the bills even if I calc the weekend - I still feel robbed and when the darling little :littleangel: picked the boarder of the wallpaper and ruined my decor imo this should be claimable as an expense along with my clothes that are ruined due to paint, glue, crawling on the floor. So I still think there are unfair elements that a childminder has to bare :blush:




.The rules on taxation and expenses were never designed to be fair or make perfect sense. They are merely rules.


Just seen it!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :laughing: :laughing: you are so funny..... and right.

Simona
31-01-2014, 10:59 AM
Your funny bunyip, but

Due to childminding I have my heating and lighting (old house with 2 ft walls and need lights on) on 6am - 9pm 15hrs (at the mo because it is so cold even though I try to keep my clothes on :blush: and keep the vicars wife away ) - I think if I was working elsewhere the heating/lighting would be on 6.7am and 6-9pm - 4hrs - but can only claim 33% of the bills even if I calc the weekend - I still feel robbed and when the darling little :littleangel: picked the boarder of the wallpaper and ruined my decor imo this should be claimable as an expense along with my clothes that are ruined due to paint, glue, crawling on the floor. So I still think there are unfair elements that a childminder has to bare :blush: .

Good example Koala.

The expenses incurred for what your little angels did to your wallpaper...should they not be under 'maintenance and repairs'?
they are not wear and tear are they? I consider that to be something that through use get worn and torn but not this kind of damage

It is part of our duty to keep settings well maintained and in good decorative order...I have seen comments about this in inspection reports

Another one to think about...

rickysmiths
31-01-2014, 02:11 PM
Your funny bunyip, but

Due to childminding I have my heating and lighting (old house with 2 ft walls and need lights on) on 6am - 9pm 15hrs (at the mo because it is so cold even though I try to keep my clothes on :blush: and keep the vicars wife away ) - I think if I was working elsewhere the heating/lighting would be on 6.7am and 6-9pm - 4hrs - but can only claim 33% of the bills even if I calc the weekend - I still feel robbed and when the darling little :littleangel: picked the boarder of the wallpaper and ruined my decor imo this should be claimable as an expense along with my clothes that are ruined due to paint, glue, crawling on the floor. So I still think there are unfair elements that a childminder has to bare :blush:




.The rules on taxation and expenses were never designed to be fair or make perfect sense. They are merely rules.



Just seen it!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :laughing: :laughing: you are so funny..... and right.

This is covered under the 10% Wear and Tear we can off set. Or if the damage is so bad you claim on your Buildings Insurance and redecorate the wall.

bunyip
31-01-2014, 05:55 PM
If the child has worn it and torn it, that's wear and tear isn't it?

I comment from a position of extreme smugness, as the lo's are currently saving me money on decorating. I'll plaster and decorate the bare patches when I'm rich and famous but, for now, they're masked by pre-schoolers' artworks. :D

benandjerrys
31-01-2014, 06:36 PM
I haven't worked out my expenses yet as newly registered but I a very happy with what I am earning. I have never earned as much and should of done it years ago.

bunyip
01-02-2014, 03:00 PM
I think we're all missing the point.

The important thing about our income/expenditure is not what we tell the Tax(wo)man........


...........it's what we don't tell the 'other half'. :D :rolleyes: :D

lizduncan72
01-02-2014, 04:47 PM
I think we're all missing the point.

The important thing about our income/expenditure is not what we tell the Tax(wo)man........

...........it's what we don't tell the 'other half'. :D :rolleyes: :D

Very true!! I'm much more honest with the taxman than with DH!!

maisiemog
01-02-2014, 05:23 PM
Very true!! I'm much more honest with the taxman than with DH!!

And me! The secret of a happy marriage is keeping my DH in the dark about the true costs of things!