PDA

View Full Version : advice needed please *do not read if eating*



Mrsh3103
08-01-2014, 04:33 PM
My ds 5 has major problems with pooing I've posted about his issues before.
He keeps having accidents because he tries to hold it in but the medication he is on won't let him.
The dr has now decided it's a psychological problem and we are waiting for a referral.

He has been having accidents at school at least once a week since he started in reception, he's year 1 now. The school never do anything about it. They just leave him dirty all day.
Today when I picked him up as he was walking across the play ground towards me I could smell him. When I changed him he was covered from his waist all the way to his ankles. It had obviously happened this morning (he won't tell me) as it was dried to him :( he is so sore now. His skin is bright red :( I've covered him in sudo cream it looks like a severe case of nappy rash.

I'm unsure what is going to be the best way to approach this with the school. It's happened before and I went in and made it clear I wasn't happy. I told them that if he has another accident they are to call me and I will come in and clean him up if no one there is willing to do it.

I need to calm down before I do anything. Im so angry and upset :(

smurfette
08-01-2014, 05:00 PM
Aw Hun that's awful! You have my sympathies as dd3 is the same .. Thankfully much better these days she is 8 now and appears to have grown out of some of it. School used to ring me and tell me her tummy was upset and I would go with a change of clothes And wipes and clean her up., if she was really bad and I felt she might have another accident I would take her home then. There is no way he should be left like that poor mite. Definitely in again to school and say it's unacceptable and you need to be called immediately.. Some times my poor dd would be in the bathroom crying when I got there, they can't help it and don't like being dirty. Hugs for you

dawn100
08-01-2014, 05:38 PM
That is awful, how can a school do that! You've said you are willing to go in if needs be so there is no excuse! I would be fuming if that was me! I know schools are anxious about intimate contact with children in case of abuse allegations but surely them leaving it and doing nothing is neglect! I can see occasionally it might not he noticed if the child says nothing and its only a little bit but when it's like you describe then they would be able to smell it just like we do when a babies nappy needs changing! I would be pointing out to the school that they have a duty of care for your son and would want to know how they plan to care for him the next time he has an accident, if I wasn't happy with the teachers response I would be taking to the next step and speaking to the head teacher. I'm fuming on your behalf!

MessybutHappy
08-01-2014, 05:48 PM
I'm shocked to the core! that's neglect in any other setting, imagine if that happened in an old people's home or secure unit? The press would be up in arms and rightly so.

I don't know what to suggest, presumably you've tried lots of different ways to minimise any mess, but these aren't working, and I cannot accept that the school would think it ok to leave a child smelly and dirty when you've said you'll go down and assist him.

I hope someone with a bright idea will come along soon, but in the meantime I hope he's not too distressed by today's disgraceful situation.

VeggieSausage
08-01-2014, 05:55 PM
I would go with him to the office tomorrow morning and say you need to see the head immediately about a complaint, nothing will improve for your son unless you tackle the school.....this is a medical problem, he has been referred by gp.....in fact I wouldn't want my child in that class at all - awful :(

Tazmin68
08-01-2014, 05:57 PM
A difficult one for schools. I know when my ds1 was in primary school there was a child in his classwho had accidents due to medication and they would not clean him up they would send him to first aid room and sit on a black bag and call parent to come and clean him up and bring a change of clothes but he was never left for a whole day like it.

Deb

watford wizz
08-01-2014, 06:03 PM
I'm so sorry for the distress caused by insensitive school staff someone must have noticed!! Definitely take this further x one thing that might help is I had a child who would not tell /tLk to teacher so we devised a system with post it notes which he just left on her desk which then alerted her to his needs and he didn't have to say anything x might help x

nicjelley
08-01-2014, 06:04 PM
This is so awful to read I feel so sad for you and your poor boy, id be furious !! They may not be allowed to clean it but youve stated that u will go and do it yourself.....id deffo be onto the head first thing as im sure u will be :(

tinka77
08-01-2014, 06:50 PM
My thoughts are the same as others...a complete sense of neglect on the schools part, any other setting would be crucified if this happened. One of my mindee's went through this and the school phoned his mum. When she got there with wipes, change of clothes, she found him waist down covered due to an upset tummy. Unfortunately this incident then affect her sons confidence in going to school and he had a few nasty comments from kids at school. Stern word with head is needed, to go all day is not on

Tealady
08-01-2014, 06:57 PM
I totally agree with the posts about this, but also, how could the staff work in the class with the smell? I know you get fade with odours but if it was all over him, poor chap, it would have been in their noses since it happened. Surely that would have been enough to call you to come in and clean aside form the health, comfort and hygiene issues for your little chap?! (and knowing how you can tell theres a dirty nappy at a toddler group I wouldn't believe them if they claim nobody noticed)

I would address it with the class teacher AND and complain to the Head. Stories like this break my heart. I realise cleaning poo isn't part of the job for teachers and TA's but it's not as if you haven't said you won't go in and do it.

Glitter
08-01-2014, 07:23 PM
I work in a school and I would advise making an appointment to speak to the head teacher to discuss your concerns. If you take a written complaint letter with you so they have a written record (they have to respond to a letter, so it is harder for them to fob you off).

The class teacher needs to meet with you to work out a care plan so the problem is dealt with in a consistent caring way. If you do not feel the headteacher was helpful the next stage is a written complaint to the school governors and Ofsted.

I hope they can work with you to sort this out.

Mrsh3103
08-01-2014, 07:29 PM
All I keep thinking about is what would happen to me and my business if I did that.
What if a mindee has a dirty nappy at 10am then I leave it til mum picks up at 4pm? Surely I would be in serious trouble with ofsted?
I keep trying to write an email to the head but it doesn't sound right. I'm finding it hard to get down what I need to say as I can't find suitable alternatives for the swear words.
I think it'll be best to meet her face to face and discuss it.

Christi
08-01-2014, 08:07 PM
That is disgusting :mad::mad:

How about something along the lines of:

I am writing to in regards to the incident today (8th January). On collection of my son from school I quickly discovered that he had had an accident, on further inspection, it was a major one, leaving him covered from waist to ankle in poo. This had clearly happened much earlier in the day as it had dried to him, leving him very sore. I have on previous occasions made it very clear that I will come straight into change him should such an accident occur. Further, I view this as a major inclusion and safeguarding fail on the schools part. Should I have sent my son to school in such a state I could easily be charged with neglect. The school also has a need to provide a safe environment for my child; leaving him in such a state will leave him vulnerable to bullying as well as the physical implications.
I expect a reply in writing setting out a plan of action in case this should ever happen again.
Yours...

sing-low
08-01-2014, 08:08 PM
All I keep thinking about is what would happen to me and my business if I did that. What if a mindee has a dirty nappy at 10am then I leave it til mum picks up at 4pm? Surely I would be in serious trouble with ofsted? I keep trying to write an email to the head but it doesn't sound right. I'm finding it hard to get down what I need to say as I can't find suitable alternatives for the swear words. I think it'll be best to meet her face to face and discuss it.
I'm not surprised you're finding it hard to write a letter. I'd write down exactly what you're feeling (swear words and all) but don't send that version.

I agree that it's disgraceful and schools shouldn't be allowed to hide behind 'safeguarding' issues. It's neglect, plain and simple. Your poor DS. Whether you take a letter or not tomorrow, make sure they know you want to complain. Ask for their complaints policy, in writing, and don't leave til they give it to you. Hugs for you and your DS.

tigwig
08-01-2014, 09:30 PM
Reading that I am absolutely appalled. Your poor ds and you :( I cannot believe how anyone could leave a child like that for a few minutes let alone hours. The letter suggested below is good. I would use something like that and make it crystal clear that this must never happen again. I wouldn't have expected teachers to clean him up but to ignore it disgusts me. Why an earth did they not contact you? Also I was wondering if you had been on the ERIC website for enuresis. It has parent forums on there whose children have all got the same problems both with bladder and/or bowel issues. Can you not get any kind of padded pants or something to use? I have heard of these, there should be guidance on that site about them and other advice. I really hope you get this sorted and the school can get their backsides in gear and support your ds. Please keep us updated.

julie w
08-01-2014, 09:55 PM
My son went through exactly the same thing. I ended up keeping him off school over 2 weeks because he was in such a state. We went to see a specialist who was brilliant and explained that this is very common in children of about this age. Basically its a form of constipation because the child can no longer go to the toilet as and when they please and when they do go they cant always spend the time they need in the toilet. Therefore it means lots of leakage. We were taught to retrain his bowel. He was prescribed a mild laxative before bed. We got him up about half an hour earlier in the morning and he was to sit on the toilet with his favourite comics or books for as long as he needed with no pressure. The same thing after school. Books in the bathroom with no one knocking on the door , for as long as it took. It only took a few weeks and his body got into a regular routine where he would only need to poo at home. Sorry its long winded, but fingers crossed the situation improves. xxx

jackie 7
08-01-2014, 10:09 PM
I am so sad to hear this. As everyone else had said it is neglect. We would be closed down. I would tell the school that you might have to tell social services as you have a duty of care even if they don't think they do.

Mrsh3103
09-01-2014, 10:40 AM
I had an appointment with the class teacher and head before school this morning. I told them how disgusted I was that this has happened AGAIN. I have told them again to phone me if it happens and I will be there asap to sort it if no one there is willing to help him out a bit.
I also said about if it was me that did that to a child in my care I would be shut down by ofsted as it's neglect.
The school is currently on special measures so I think mentioning ofsted hit a nerve!
I have suggested the post it note idea (thanks) so hopefully he will be able to tell his teacher without any embarrassment now.
I'm going to see how it goes, once more and it'll be a direct complaint to ofsted.

shortstuff
09-01-2014, 11:59 AM
I had an appointment with the class teacher and head before school this morning. I told them how disgusted I was that this has happened AGAIN. I have told them again to phone me if it happens and I will be there asap to sort it if no one there is willing to help him out a bit.
I also said about if it was me that did that to a child in my care I would be shut down by ofsted as it's neglect.
The school is currently on special measures so I think mentioning ofsted hit a nerve!
I have suggested the post it note idea (thanks) so hopefully he will be able to tell his teacher without any embarrassment now.
I'm going to see how it goes, once more and it'll be a direct complaint to ofsted.

Good for you x I hope this is the end of the awful treatment your son is receiving but you are probably in a better position than most parents as you know how easy it is to call ofsted x

FloraDora
09-01-2014, 09:26 PM
Just read this!!

This is what I think ( as a retired HT):

Because this is technically a medical problem I would have had you fill in a medical care form so that everyone in the school is clear on what they need to do in incidents like this.
The appointed first aider/ medical carer should oversee the completion of this, where you can discuss the best way the school can support your child. Every member of staff should have knowledge of this care plan so if it happens at lunch time, the lunchtime staff know what to do too.
On this form will be the medical issue, the medication needed, what the school will do if this happens eg...a named member of staff that will deal with it or a call to you, you visit and clean him or take him home and return him ASAP.
It should be treated as a genuine medical issue and equal opportunities should kick in ...supporting your child to enable continuity at school.
Not all schools are happy to deal with cleaning children, but I had a superb office manager/ first aider who would not hesitate to help a child and my EY team would always clean up and change, unless the child was in such a mess that it would be easier for parent to take child home and pop in a bath/ shower and then return to school.

I am really shocked by this ... A formal personal plan needs to be put in place to ensure this does not happen again.
I would return to school, say you have reflected on situation, then request a personalised plan be written and put in place so that you know they have dealt with incident and are putting a plan in place...and to reassure you this will not happen again.

samb
10-01-2014, 12:24 PM
My dd used to suffer with chronic constipation and therefore have "leakage" issues which was bad enough. But for your poor ds I feel so sad for you and him. I'm glad you've managed to speak to the head and just hope you feel they have put something real in place now to stop a repeat of this. :-(

Mrsh3103
17-01-2014, 03:55 PM
Ds had another accident at school today. We had set up the post it note system so he could discretely tell his teacher without the embarrassment of actually saying it to her.
He didn't use this and the teacher only knew because she could smell him. When she asked why he didn't put the post it note on her desk he said he forgot. Well I know this isn't the case because I remind him every morning.
I don't know what to do now!

watford wizz
17-01-2014, 04:39 PM
Sorry it didn't work today did he have the post it notes in his pocket? Could you try a small key ring size favourite object x

Velleity
17-01-2014, 06:11 PM
Is taking him off the medication that's stopping him from being able to control his bowel movements not an option?

Perhaps something gentler would be beneficial for him. If he feels that he's in better control of his own body then he might improve?

Sorry I hope this doesn't sound interfering. Just an alternative idea :blush:

Mrsh3103
17-01-2014, 06:30 PM
Not at all :) he was taken off the medication earlier this week as the dr thought the same. He has had an accident every day this week but today was the 1st one at school.

I don't know what to do with him. He doesn't seem bothered at all by it. He will quite happily sit all day like that if it wasn't for me changing him! It's as if he just doesn't care about how uncomfortable it is or the smell. The only thing that embarrasses him is having to actually say to someone that he has had an accident. Then his fingers go in his mouth and he looks at the ground.

I've tried reward charts where he gets to choose a family afternoon out (I give him options or we'd end up on the moon lol) if he's pood on the loo at least once during the week and has had clean pants everyday. I've tried a reward straight after a poo.
I've tried the gentle 'it's ok, but you need to try harder' approach.
I've lost my temper and told him off.
I've made him rinse his pants out (drs advice)
We've had him use his own money to buy new pants.
We've stopped him from using his nintendo until he goes a week with clean pants.

I just want to cry. It's causing problems with me and dh now

loocyloo
17-01-2014, 07:00 PM
Big hugs.

If it is not medical but psychological ( without making it sound too strong ) might the doctors be able to help?

My friends son has issues pooing and would sit in it 'oblivious' and they tried all the approaches you have. ( he had a medical issue as a baby and once toilet training worked out how to push mummy s buttons ) when he was about 6 he went away to a 'camp' with other children with issues and educational psychologists/nurses etc worked with him and got no where. Eventually he had surgery to insert a stoma ( the opening for a catheta ) and then basically every morning he was 'washed out' (antegrade colinic enema) and it removed the worry/issue/concern etc and after a few months of this and him realising what fun he could have - go to friends houses, parties, football club etc they slowly started toilet training and he seems to be ok now.

Sorry if that seems like an over the top solution but you and your son are not alone xxx

ja-lula-belli
17-01-2014, 07:16 PM
You are completely within your right to be furious! This is dispicable from the school! What a poor boy to be left in such a way! Especially if you have told them to call you. I do not think I would ever calm down!
I'm so sorry to hear that the school are giving you these problems.
X x xx

Ja-Lula-Belli Childminding

Gogominder
17-01-2014, 08:25 PM
Why can't they at least call you bless him .why would they want to smell that all day anyway gggrrr that's so unfair on him .

Mrsh3103
17-01-2014, 09:29 PM
Big hugs.

If it is not medical but psychological ( without making it sound too strong ) might the doctors be able to help?

My friends son has issues pooing and would sit in it 'oblivious' and they tried all the approaches you have. ( he had a medical issue as a baby and once toilet training worked out how to push mummy s buttons ) when he was about 6 he went away to a 'camp' with other children with issues and educational psychologists/nurses etc worked with him and got no where. Eventually he had surgery to insert a stoma ( the opening for a catheta ) and then basically every morning he was 'washed out' (antegrade colinic enema) and it removed the worry/issue/concern etc and after a few months of this and him realising what fun he could have - go to friends houses, parties, football club etc they slowly started toilet training and he seems to be ok now.

Sorry if that seems like an over the top solution but you and your son are not alone xxx

Nothing sounds over the top anymore :(
He's a fussy eater and recently this has got even worse. He refused to eat his tea last night and tonight. The only thing I can think of is he is so clogged up there just isn't the space for any more food! I just hate seeing my baby go through this and there doesn't seem to be anything I can do

littlemiss60561
17-01-2014, 10:14 PM
Ahh I've just seen your post and feel really sad for you and your son. I'm also really cross with the school for neglecting him. Good for you speaking to the head and managing to hold back on the language . Was the head disgusted too? I flippin hope so.
Is he really ok sitting in it or worried about getting up maybe?
Hope you find something to help and the school buck up their ways x

Tulip
17-01-2014, 10:39 PM
Oh dear, sorry to hear you are still having probs, try not too worry too much at some point I'm sure he'll grow out of it. In the mean time what about some new undies with his favourite character on them, sending hugs x

smurfette
18-01-2014, 11:55 AM
Have you tried baby lax suppositories? We used movicol which I found impossible to judge and it didn't take effect for several
Days by which time we
Would have given her too much and she went the other way! Baby lax is instant within about 15 minutes and gives a proper clear
Out..can give cramps though so maybe some calpol too
My dd also wouldn't eat when she was stuffed up.

I feel your pain it was so so stressful and dh and I argued a lot about how best to handle it and nothing seemed
To work! In the end she has grown out of it a lot. We saw a consultant and she said her colon was just immature and needed time to catch up. We find swimming and trampolining works nearly instantly to get her to go, and exercise in general improves it we notice a difference when she hasn't been to training for a couple of weeks.

Fruit everyday, lots of water and bizzarely though she loves them salty crackers like tuc
Make her worse. She gave them up for lent her own idea and she was much better those 6 weeks! Less milk, only on cereal, raisins are
Good, and cranberry juice helps,

Sure you have tried a lot of this, if you haven't already get a referral to a consultant,, there is also a good site called PottyMD.com which is fab .. Does he also bed wet it's connected? You are not alone in this he isn't unusual though it can feel like you are! Pm me if you want to rant as I have been there!

sing-low
18-01-2014, 12:07 PM
Sorry to hear that the post-it notes didn't work. Did the school call you this time to come in and clean him up? If so, that is a positive step forward.

It may take some time to resolve this issue (between you and your son and the school, there's lots of different people involved and everyone won't always do what they are supposed to do which makes it really hard for you caught in the middle, trying to do the best for your DS but also really worried about him and angry with the school). I know that's not what you want to hear - if only there was a magic solution that would make it all better.

I don't have any new ideas - lots of good advice on this thread. Just sending hugs.

jackie 7
18-01-2014, 07:13 PM
I looked after a boy who wet his pants every day. He said the warm wet feeling was nice. It stopped when I asked him what the other children thought, he said they don't know. I sent him to look I. A mirror as he was wearing light blue jeans it was obvious. He stopped immediately. I know this might be horrible but would it be worth asking him what the other children think?

Mrsh3103
18-01-2014, 08:38 PM
I've tried that approach too. I've told him it's really smelly and everyone will be able to smell him. I know it's harsh but I've even said no one will want to play with the smelly boy. I said this put of frustration one day. Feel so guilty about it but I'd tried all the other approaches with no results. Back to the drs on monday. I've had to clean him up twice today. Once was 15 mins after I made him sit on the toilet for 10 mins with his nintento!

blue bear
18-01-2014, 08:59 PM
Not a long term help but have you tried Califig, you get it from big supermarkets or chemist (syrup of fig) give it at night for results in the morning.
The trouble with laxatives etc is it makes the bowel lazy and so you have to retrain the child.

Has anyone at school told him he is not allowed to do it at school, sounds harsh but I found with one little one who was doing this being understanding only encouraged him more, one day I told him you are not allowed to do this at BlueBear house you have to use the toilet, he chanted it for a few days and then he started using the toilet, took about two weeks to crack it completely. Worked with another child who wet himself regularly too.

Can't see it working at home as you are mum but might work for the teacher. Anything is worth a try when you get that desperate.

I cannot understand how schools would neglect a child in this way to protect staff use doesn't make sense does it.

LauraS
18-01-2014, 09:05 PM
I would expect the school to be doing much better in his care. I know teachers don't like to be cleaning up children who have accidents, and I can understand why, but your son currently has 'additional needs' and the school have a duty to meet them. If your son required medication because he was diabetic, or if he needed assistance and monitoring because he was epileptic etc etc then the school would have to ensure that there was someone on the premises that was trained and competent to provide whatever help was needed. The only difference, in my opinion, is that your son doesn't have a formal diagnosis, and that the help needed is unpleasant to provide.

Your son shouldn't have to let the teacher ow when he has had an accident. You have tried that route and he doesn't tell. Understandable, he is probably mortified. The school need to have something in placeso that they are adequately monitoring him and can get him out of dirty clothes ASAP. He should not have to wait for your help, nor should he have to miss vital lesson time waiting to be cleaned up.


Would pull ups help at all? I know it's a backward step, but in the short term it might make it less of a big deal, less of a mess for your son to be sitting in and cleaning up, less of an embarrassment for him? Just while the reasons for the Incontinence are dealt with?

AliceK
18-01-2014, 11:01 PM
Hi
My ds also suffers from chronic constipation and when it gets bad he gets leakage. First of all you should know that he cannot help it and that he can,t control it. I was mortified when the doctor told me this as I was at the end of my tether and thought he was just being lazy. Basically his bowel needs retraining and the only thing that will do this is getting him in a routine of pooling on a regular basis. Bear in mind my ds suffered with this for about four years before I read about flax oil. I now give it to him in a yogurt once a day and the results have been brilliant. He now is much more regular so the leakage is more or less nil unless he gets back out of the habit of going. I nag him every day to have a poo. If it does start up he puts a sanitary pad in his pants so he can keep himself clean but as long as he takes the flax oil he is so much better. Before that we had tried suppositories, movicol and lactulose all with no success. Try the oil and make sure he at least trys to get into a routine and see what happens. Good luck, it's heartbreaking so see them suffer with it.
Xxx

Mrsh3103
21-01-2014, 07:34 PM
We've had a bit of a breakthrough over the last few days. :) :)
DH decided to start a pooing contest between us all lol. We've got a chart with all our names on and every time we do a poo we put a star next to our names.
Ds is still having small accidents during the day but he has so far done 2 poos on the toilet :) :) :) :) :)

loocyloo
21-01-2014, 07:37 PM
We've had a bit of a breakthrough over the last few days. :) :)
DH decided to start a pooing contest between us all lol. We've got a chart with all our names on and every time we do a poo we put a star next to our names.
Ds is still having small accidents during the day but he has so far done 2 poos on the toilet :) :) :) :) :)

Fantastic! I love the idea :-):-):-)

ja-lula-belli
21-01-2014, 08:01 PM
We've had a bit of a breakthrough over the last few days. :) :)
DH decided to start a pooing contest between us all lol. We've got a chart with all our names on and every time we do a poo we put a star next to our names.
Ds is still having small accidents during the day but he has so far done 2 poos on the toilet :) :) :) :) :)

That's a brilliant idea. X

Ja-Lula-Belli Childminding

tigwig
21-01-2014, 08:41 PM
Thats great news. Trust a man to come up with that idea lol. It's a good one though :)

shortstuff
21-01-2014, 08:43 PM
We've had a bit of a breakthrough over the last few days. :) :)
DH decided to start a pooing contest between us all lol. We've got a chart with all our names on and every time we do a poo we put a star next to our names.
Ds is still having small accidents during the day but he has so far done 2 poos on the toilet :) :) :) :) :)

what an amazing idea x you must feel so much better about it all now x:clapping:

Zoomie
21-01-2014, 09:10 PM
Lol, this is fantastic x

Mrsh3103
21-01-2014, 09:41 PM
Yeh typical bloke :)
It hasn't completely solved the problem but he seems to be enjoying having more stars than dh at the moment!

dawn100
22-01-2014, 12:23 AM
That sort of idea could only come from a man but I think it's great, my husband just asked me what made me chuckle so told him and guess what he's asked if we could have a chart like that as he thinks it sounds like great fun!! My kids are all fully toilet trained and have been for many years so I said why would we want one his reply was its a competition he would win easily especially if you added bonus stars for a very large one or extra smelly!
But back on track I think it's great you've found something that is helping.