ratio....

[Karen1]

Hi

I currently have an enquiry for an 'as and when' child on a Tuesday, age 2.. now... which I am happy to do, but ...

space 1. own child age 3 at Preschool on Tuesday (will be a rising five from October)
space 2. 4 year old boy term time only, until July (9-2pm)
space 3. two year old girl, (7-3pm) (mum works shift work and doesn't always come every Tuesday. I normally know in advance her days, and its not every tuesday)

Question is, I wont always know the days this new child would want to come, until the day before as dad is a pilot !!!nice!!. In the holidays I would def have a space (take up space 2), but also I may have a space free due to space 3 child not being here, but could I still have new child if I had the others on the odd day. I wouldn't be having all three every week, also space 2 is term time only and is leaving in July, so would only be a temp. thing any way. Could I class it as a variation? (if so how would I go about it) I know I could cope with the numbers as used to work I a nursery, plus not every week

ideas-just seems an ideal enquiry for me to fill my shift worker space occasionally????

hope this makes sense.

[FussyElmo]

You cant take the child as a variation as its new business and no continuity of care exists.

You could offer an ad hoc contract so if you have the space on the Tuesday you could take her but the parents would have to realise if the other three mindees are there on certain Tuesdays you would have to say no :thumbsup:

[christine e]

Agree with FussyElmo:thumbsup:

[yummyripples]

I am sure you could do it. If your own is at pre school then he is not with you. The only time you would be over your numbers is before and after school isn't it? Could you get a family member or friend to collect him?
A question of my own please: I understood that a rising five is a child that has started reception and is 4, maybe not 5 until August. Am I wrong?

[moggy]

You cant take the child as a variation as its new business and no continuity of care exists.

You could offer an ad hoc contract so if you have the space on the Tuesday you could take her but the parents would have to realise if the other three mindees are there on certain Tuesdays you would have to say no :thumbsup:

This is correct. You can not offer a new child a place unless you have a place available on all days they want.
This is why shift-workers can be a problem. You need to have an open space on all the possible days they want and either accept that you will not have pay on the days they do not come, or charge a minimum per month to make it worth your while, or charge a retainer on the unused days.
Personally, I will not take shift-work, or this kind of 'changing-days', families as I need regular days to guarantee my income. I can not afford to keep a space open in case they 'might' use it that week.
Ad-hoc would be the only way you could go but the family would need a reliable back-up for the days you can not do.

[yummyripples]

Actually just read the other 2 children's hours - is your son at pre school all day? Would you ever have 3 in your house together on a Tuesday?

[WibbleWobble]

I am sure you could do it. If your own is at pre school then he is not with you. The only time you would be over your numbers is before and after school isn't it? Could you get a family member or friend to collect him? A question of my own please: I understood that a rising five is a child that has started reception and is 4, maybe not 5 until August. Am I wrong?

Even if child is at preschool they are still counted as in your numbers

Yes a rising five is in reception ie full time 10 sessions a week school. 4 years old ...onwards but in school full time.

[moggy]

I am sure you could do it. If your own is at pre school then he is not with you. The only time you would be over your numbers is before and after school isn't it? Could you get a family member or friend to collect him?
A question of my own please: I understood that a rising five is a child that has started reception and is 4, maybe not 5 until August. Am I wrong?

IF YOUR CHILD IS AT PRE-SCHOOL/GRANNY'S/NURSERY THEY STILL COUNT IN YOUR NUMBERS! (until 5-full-days a week at Reception Year)

Sorry, to 'bold' that but it is so important and so many do not realise and can be caught out by it.

[WibbleWobble]

IF YOUR CHILD IS AT PRE-SCHOOL/GRANNY'S/NURSERY THEY STILL COUNT IN YOUR NUMBERS! (until 5-full-days a week at Reception Year) Sorry, to 'bold' that but it is so important and so many do not realise and can be caught out by it.

I hear ya sister!

Wibble xxxxxxxxx

[Simona]

I am going to throw the spanner in the works here
Variations are so very much individual interpretation so can anyone tell me if Ofsted have ever said that 'new business' cannot be continuity of care?

I cannot find any reference here from the EYFS
3.40 If a childminder can demonstrate to parents and/or carers and inspectors, that the individual needs of all the children are being met, then exceptions to the usual ratios can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies, or when caring for their own baby. If children aged four and five only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, and/or during school holidays, they may be cared for at the same time as three other young children. But in all circumstances, the total number of children under the age of eight being cared for must not exceed six.


Variations were introduce to accommodate flexibility, which CMs can offer much more than any other setting, due to parents shift work and other reasons and to me the only stipulation 'appears' to be that we must not ever exceed 6 under 8

I will be glad when this is clearly explained by DfE and Ofsted themselves because 18 months on this issue remains very unclear and so difficult to give advice to others.

[FussyElmo]

I am going to throw the spanner in the works here
Variations are so very much individual interpretation so can anyone tell me if Ofsted have ever said that 'new business' cannot be continuity of care?

I cannot find any reference here from the EYFS
3.40 If a childminder can demonstrate to parents and/or carers and inspectors, that the individual needs of all the children are being met, then exceptions to the usual ratios can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies, or when caring for their own baby. If children aged four and five only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, and/or during school holidays, they may be cared for at the same time as three other young children. But in all circumstances, the total number of children under the age of eight being cared for must not exceed six.


Variations were introduce to accommodate flexibility, which CMs can offer much more than any other setting, due to parents shift work and other reasons and to me the only stipulation 'appears' to be that we must not ever exceed 6 under 8

I will be glad when this is clearly explained by DfE and Ofsted themselves because 18 months on this issue remains very unclear and so difficult to give advice to others.


Yes Simona cms have been downgraded to inadequate because ofsted did not agree that them extending their numbers was in exceptional circumstances. Sarah document which was proofed by ofsted has always stated never for new business.

[yummyripples]

Ok I understand what everyone is saying.
What would happen though if she did take the child on? Would she lose her registration?
When I wanted to go over my numbers for new business I registered my husband as my assistant. He was around anyway so thought I may as well.
I know some childminders who regularly go over their numbers for short periods to ensure that when one child leaves they are immediately replaced, so what would happen if ofsted found out?
One lady I know says she was granted a permanent variation for no child in particular just because she felt she could manage 4.

[Karen1]

Hi

Thanks for all your replies.

I think the ad hoc contract would be too whimsy for him if he's flying all over the world " lol. Might be fun though to hear on the plane 'pilot unable to fly today due to childminder issues' lol that has made me chuckle.

My son, is at preschool from 9.15 until 2.45

So I would have on a normal day

J 9-2, plus A until 9.15 (drop at preschool)
J on own until 2


If shift child comes E then

E 7-3
J 9-2
A school 9.15 -2.45

So 2 children between hours of 9.15 and 2

Holidays
E and A two children
Or with as and when child, plus E and A, three.

If I have the other as and when child then I would only ever have three children at one time,

My little one will be four in April. So Simone from that 3.40 I am reading it as then I could do it as my child will be only in setting before and after school and in holidays. And all all times I will never have more than three children anyway (which is the standard amount anyway), and I will def not exceed six.


So confusing.

What do you think if I offer ad hoc until April, and then yes with variation. (But who knows, thinks change so fast with kids and may have a space freed up anyway by then and all this for nothing). So confusing. No wonder cms get it wrong.

K

[FussyElmo]

Ok I understand what everyone is saying.
What would happen though if she did take the child on? Would she lose her registration?
When I wanted to go over my numbers for new business I registered my husband as my assistant. He was around anyway so thought I may as well.
I know some childminders who regularly go over their numbers for short periods to ensure that when one child leaves they are immediately replaced, so what would happen if ofsted found out?
One lady I know says she was granted a permanent variation for no child in particular just because she felt she could manage 4.

You get downgraded to inadequate. Ofsted can stay with you until the parents of whoever you choose come to collect your child. If you are inadequate you are not allowed to advertise on your FIS service you not allowed to offer funding and if you have funded children they can remove the funding then and you lose those children.

[Karen1]

Blimey just read the other two posts as I was posting and really don't think one child as and when is worth it, if Ofsted say it's not an exceptional circumstance!

It should be made clearer though. As seems tough to downgrade if cms know they can cope with the extra. I have nursery and education background for many years and know that i would be fine, but really not worth it. God what a nightmare.

[Karen1]

Thanks for all your replies though, would of loved a pilot though in uniform turning up LOL., am just going to offer ad hoc and then will have to go from there. Will let you all know. Thankfully have this site to help with all this. Thank you all.:clapping:

[moggy]

Hi

Thanks for all your replies.

I think the ad hoc contract would be too whimsy for him if he's flying all over the world " lol. Might be fun though to hear on the plane 'pilot unable to fly today due to childminder issues' lol that has made me chuckle.

My son, is at preschool from 9.15 until 2.45

So I would have on a normal day

J 9-2, plus A until 9.15 (drop at preschool)
J on own until 2


If shift child comes E then

E 7-3
J 9-2
A school 9.15 -2.45

So 2 children between hours of 9.15 and 2

Holidays
E and A two children
Or with as and when child, plus E and A, three.

If I have the other as and when child then I would only ever have three children at one time,

My little one will be four in April. So Simone from that 3.40 I am reading it as then I could do it as my child will be only in setting before and after school and in holidays. And all all times I will never have more than three children anyway (which is the standard amount anyway), and I will def not exceed six.


So confusing.

What do you think if I offer ad hoc until April, and then yes with variation. (But who knows, thinks change so fast with kids and may have a space freed up anyway by then and all this for nothing). So confusing. No wonder cms get it wrong.

K

But the whole 'at pre-school' thing for your own child does not count- For a child not to count in your EYFS numbers it needs to be full time (full morning + full afternoon) at Reception Year at school, so that is from the Sept after the child's 4th birthday, not 'pre-school' which I understand to be younger than Reception Year age (so before the Sept child turns 4).

It was so much clearer when it was written on our certificates!

[Simona]

Yes Simona cms have been downgraded to inadequate because ofsted did not agree that them extending their numbers was in exceptional circumstances. Sarah document which was proofed by ofsted has always stated never for new business.

If these cms extended their number beyond 6 under 8 then yes that is a breach of the requirements and downgrading will follow
The EYFS is written by the DfE and Ofsted interpret it therefore so we have variation on this from all sides

If Ofsted have proofed a document, and that is good, then why not offer advice when cms ring for support on this matter or put something in writing for all to see? or put an addendum on the EYFS itself?
legislation should be clear not open to interpretation in my view like the 70 miles ph on the motorway...go faster and you get fined no interpretation there!

what is the point of complaining that cms numbers are dropping and there are not enough places to go around when cms are possibly stopping offering places due to fear of being reported or downgraded or having looked at self variation from the wrong angle?

I see what you are saying but this needs to be addressed once and for all...maybe we now have the opportunity with the new Ofsted Director for Childminding to get this looked into?
I will certainly raise it.

[Karen1]

Completely agree with you Simone.

Not everyone wants their child to be in a nursery environment and a nursery won't be able to offer what this parent is asking for and not all cms will be able to offer it, so when there is an opportunity that it could be covered and the children are all safe, happy and still within the under six ratio.hen there should be exceptions. But I'm not going to offer a place (with variation) as don't want to misinterpret the regs and lose my reputation.

Hard enough job, with others saying ooh nice to stay home and be with the kids!!,! They have no idea what goes on behind the scenes.

[sarah707]

It is a very difficult situation. This is a forum where members give advice.

It's not admin's registration that is at risk if you follow incorrect advice and make a mistake - it's YOURS...

So...

We read inspection reports - we support childminders going through Ofsted investigations - we hear about cms who have been downgraded for making mistakes ...

In other words we try our best to get the latest information coming out of Ofsted inspections which members don't read because they are not hearing about it - but we are.

For example we know about a childminder who had 4 under 5 on a perfectly ok variation - all boxes ticked - and everything was ok until the toddler bit the baby while she was in the loo - and then it all went wrong and she was told that she was not supervising the children properly and .... well, she's not working any more.

I had my variations document - the one in free files at the top of the forum - proofed by Ofsted - I still have the proofed copy covered in red!!

It is absolutely clear - variations for continuity of care (not new business) in exceptional circumstances only. Risk assessment in place and parents happy.

So - read the rules in the EYFS 2012

Read the ofsted guidance document - Numbers and ages - Ofsted Factsheet (http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/freeresources/Free%20downloads/numbersandages-ofstedfactsheet.html)

Read my variations guidance - Variations2012 (http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/freeresources/Free%20downloads/variations2012.html)

Read the RA advice - Changes to Conditions of Registration (http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/freeresources/Free%20downloads/changestoconditionsofregistration.html)

This is the best advice we can give you - it's up to you whether you take it :D

[Karen1]

Hi

Thank you for all the info Sarah. I really appreciate it. I really don't think it's worth all the hassle for an as and when child, even though I know I can cope with it. I have been working hard to build up my business and don't want to lose it over something so simple.

Thank you all.

[bunyip]

I agree (like Simona) that Ofsted's interpretation of EYFS is inconsistent with the actual document and that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. In fact, I'd go further and say that the EYFS doesn't make a whole lot of sense with regard to ratios, in that the "Childminder" paragraphs serve as a badly-written appendix to the preceding paragraphs on group settings.

Never has this or the previous incarnation of EYFS actually mentioned "new business", "continuity of care" or "rising fives" (search the documents if you doubt me) despite the way such terms are bandied about by Ofsted and the rest of the industry. Ofsted's so-called "clarifications" (the factsheet linked from Sarah's excellent post) doesn't either. To complicate matters even more, the fact-sheet adds further expectations that "self-variations" should be limited and temporary in nature. But I've yet to see any evidence that Ofsted, having arbitrarily added this "temporary" criteria have actually enforced it; though, ironically, IMHO it's one of the few sensible parts of the whole issue.

Ultimately I have to agree with Sarah. Forum Admin cannot, and other members should not, be encouraging CMs to take any sort of risks with regard to numbers. We can only point out what might happen, and those consequences can be pretty dire. If CMs choose to take such risks, that's their choice, but they should understand no-one has told them to do.

In summary:-

Are the rules clear? No, not really.
Have Ofsted given proper clarification? No, not at all.
Will they give a watertight, committed guarantee that will be of any use at inspection if you phone to ask for guidance? Fat chance.
Might a CM get away with taking a chance on a grey area? Perhaps.
Would I personally risk my livelihood by sticking my neck out in this way? Not on your Nelly.
Would I offer a fellow CM sufficient rope with which to hang him/herself? Never.

[Mouse]

For example we know about a childminder who had 4 under 5 on a perfectly ok variation - all boxes ticked - and everything was ok until the toddler bit the baby while she was in the loo - and then it all went wrong and she was told that she was not supervising the children properly and .... well, she's not working any more.


D

Was that specifically linked to her having 4 under 5s? Would the outcome have been the same if she'd only have had 3 under 5s and gone off to the toilet and left them out of sight and hearing? Surely she was pulled up for not supervising the children properly, not for having 4 children under 5?

[Simona]

Bunyip...thank you for that very succinct but excellent summary
Sarah...it looks like we can now add another question to the list that needs to be clarified

As Bunyip says the 'paragraph' dealing with CMs variations on EYFS p 21 is just an 'appendix' consisting of a few badly written lines that leave a lot to be desired compared to the 3 page explanation of staff: child ratios for other settings from p18 to p21

So we appear united that we need to get this sorted once and for all and I do agree that all we can do in this forum is support other CMs to reflect on variations but, in the end, it is up to them to take the ultimate decision.