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View Full Version : Ratios and Shift work???



EmmaReed84
28-12-2013, 07:45 PM
I have had an enquiry from someone looking for a contract which is shift work, for a 3yr old. I have the vacancies for Mon, Tue, Thur and Fri, however I already have 3 under 5 on a Wednesday. (only until Sept 2014)

How would this work? Tell parent I could offer a contract and exclude Wednesdays then after Sept 2014 offer all days? Is there any other way of doing this?

greanan
28-12-2013, 11:33 PM
I'm in a similar position and said I could do all other days apart from wed until August 2015, when one moves onto school freeing up a space. They seem happy with it and are keen to start august 2014

Simona
29-12-2013, 10:49 AM
I have had an enquiry from someone looking for a contract which is shift work, for a 3yr old. I have the vacancies for Mon, Tue, Thur and Fri, however I already have 3 under 5 on a Wednesday. (only until Sept 2014)

How would this work? Tell parent I could offer a contract and exclude Wednesdays then after Sept 2014 offer all days? Is there any other way of doing this?

If you have spaces for the 4 days and Wednesday you already have 3 under 5...would that not be 'continuitiy of care' if you offered the Wed as well?...worth looking into if you can do a 'self variation' on that day
I know it is hard to judge and totally up to us to decide but I would look into this....or the parent would have to look at an alternative for Wed which denies her continuity of care...someone else may clarify

bunyip
29-12-2013, 12:18 PM
IMHO the logic of "continuity of care" would be far more applicable to this kind of short-term arrangement to help out a shift worker as described here, than it ever does to the way it seems to be more commonly used: ie. CM's staggering start dates and doing all kinds of weird and wonderful double-shuffles to squeeze a couple of sibling in and wring out a little extra cash.

Sadly, the rules seem designed to confuse and Ofsted refuse to clarify until they come round and slap a CM with a bad inspection judgement. :(

Simona
29-12-2013, 12:49 PM
IMHO the logic of "continuity of care" would be far more applicable to this kind of short-term arrangement to help out a shift worker as described here, than it ever does to the way it seems to be more commonly used: ie. CM's staggering start dates and doing all kinds of weird and wonderful double-shuffles to squeeze a couple of sibling in and wring out a little extra cash.

Sadly, the rules seem designed to confuse and Ofsted refuse to clarify until they come round and slap a CM with a bad inspection judgement. :(

I agree with what you say Bunyip...whenever Ofsted have been approached to support a cm making a self variation the answer has always been the same: up to you to interpret and so we have tried since Sept 2012 to 'interpret'.

So if we are left making that judgement how can Ofsted than decide on inspection that it was the wrong decision? either we can be trusted or not?
I recall Truss saying over and over again that she wanted to leave providers to make their own judgement....I know it is a very wide statement and we need to bear in mind those who may abuse the system but when will it ever be clear?


For me this is one on the pressing 'unanswered questions' that independent cms need to have clarified ASAP alongside several more attached to the agency saga!
Would it be fair to say it is up to our associations to get that clarification in place soon as we seem to have less and less support from our LAs and the 'self variation' applies to cms but not other providers who despite having the freedom to have a 1:13 ratio consistently refuse to apply it?
I don't recall Ofsted slapping a bad judgement on them because they are actually under ratio?...if you know what I mean!!!

EmmaReed84
29-12-2013, 06:05 PM
Interesting point you make there Bunyip.

I did message parent to say I could not offer a Wednesday and she seemed more than happy with that. However, I will still call Ofsted tomorrow to double check as it would be shift work mainly for Tue, Thur & Fri, so the occasional Wednesday would be as a continuity of care.

bunyip
30-12-2013, 08:50 AM
Hi Emma :waving:

Good luck with Ofsted: do let us know if they give you any sort of answer/advice beyond "refer to EYFS". As Simona suggests, they seem to have the rather schizophrenic approach of being unwilling to offer advice when a CM calls them with a query, but then having the ultimate decision at inspection time. It's doubly strange when you consider it's not so very long ago they were willing to highlight loopholes that would let providers get round the rules on ratios.

Have you tried approaching this from the other direction? ie. Suggesting how the parent might fit her work pattern round your vacancies until September? Can she swap certain days/shifts with colleagues? Has she approached her employer with a request for accommodation of her work-life balance/childcare arrangements? Of course, there are no guarantees, but EU Working Time Directives give her the right to ask without being penalised for raising the question.

When I did shift-work on the railways, the HR unit did a lot to help out employees where possible. A lot of this was helping female employees especially with childcare plans.

EmmaReed84
30-12-2013, 02:43 PM
Hi Emma :waving:

Good luck with Ofsted: do let us know if they give you any sort of answer/advice beyond "refer to EYFS". As Simona suggests, they seem to have the rather schizophrenic approach of being unwilling to offer advice when a CM calls them with a query, but then having the ultimate decision at inspection time. It's doubly strange when you consider it's not so very long ago they were willing to highlight loopholes that would let providers get round the rules on ratios.

Have you tried approaching this from the other direction? ie. Suggesting how the parent might fit her work pattern round your vacancies until September? Can she swap certain days/shifts with colleagues? Has she approached her employer with a request for accommodation of her work-life balance/childcare arrangements? Of course, there are no guarantees, but EU Working Time Directives give her the right to ask without being penalised for raising the question.

When I did shift-work on the railways, the HR unit did a lot to help out employees where possible. A lot of this was helping female employees especially with childcare plans.

Thank you Bunyip.

What parent has told me is, she is a nurse, still in Uni and has placements... she is moving away from the village she lives now and her current minder is very flexible, she will have her dates and will know a good few weeks in advance of all the her shifts per each placement. If that makes sense. I am not too worried about covering all my days and just working a few, I am more than happy on keep one full time space open just for her and making use of the days off I get... Plus when she gets a place for her older children who are in school I may be looking and B&A as well.