Short notice...

[natalieatk]

Have a child who is flexi hours...he was booked in this week and Monday and she cancelled said he will be off as there away and family issues..so I was vigilant as it's happened before and she's sent him anyway...so anyway he never came she text said enjoy my two days off....(already paid for) I find that annoying as even tho he's off still working with other children so I'm not actually off getting paid for it! Anyway he's booked in for Monday which she have previously said he isn't coming.:is text yesterday asking how he is etc..and if he was coming Monday! So she said if iv got no others she will keep him off.. So I said no I don't just him and he's still welcome etc. She insisted he wasn't coming and I should take a day off.
I never offered refund and explained that I am available if she decides to send him..,
So....what's "short notice" if she does decide to send him? Sunday night? Monday morning? I don't fancy waking up after a lie kn to a knock on the door or a text telling me hes coming at x time! I'd rather know Sunday tea time so I can prepare for the day With meals And toys etc (iv tidied all up for the holidays)

[Kiddleywinks]

Is it a flexible hours contract, or more of an ad hoc (as and when) one?

Ad hoc, to me, would mean very little notice, even so far as being asked if I could have a child within the next half hour
A flexible contract I would take that as different hours but on a specified day, or different days each week.

With a flexible contract I would need at least a 7 days notice for confirmation of hours the following week, and the fees would still be due regardless of attendance.
I use MM contracts and there is a space that specifies a minimum number of hours for fees each week, and how much notice required.
What does your contract say? What did you agree to?

She's said he's not coming, so take it that he's not coming, and if she does turn up and you're happy to take him I would ask her to wait outside (in her car if she has one) until you are ready to start work, as she said he wasn't coming and you need time now to get set up for him. (I have done this with a parent that started off turning up 10 mins early and then increased it to 30 mins early and I actually wasn't ready as I had just got out of the shower so made them wait outside till their time - rarely been more than 5 mins early since :laughing:)
I certainly wouldn't be running around chasing my tail if I was told a child wasn't coming so doing this may also make mum realise that changing her mind isn't as simple as oh just turn up and alls well if she does this regularly.
I would then, at hometime, explain that chopping and changing her mind is not helpful and in future she must give x amount of notice or you will refuse to accept a change.

When the time comes to reviewing this contract I would put in place some firmer guidelines, and stick to them :thumbsup:

[natalieatk]

He's flexi so I get shifts a month in advance! I do need to change my contract as has been 16 shifts per month and December I got 8 days which I wasn't happy about but without a clear guideline in the contract I couldn't do anything..will do a contract in the new year to specify 3 shifts min a week.
But I am worried she will contact me Monday.. Even tho she has said he's not in and ask me to have him...can I say no ? I mean if she has said he isn't coming I guess I am allowed to make plans

[Lottie]

I would take as what she's said as just that, the child isn't coming on monday. So go ahead and make your plans and do what you want. If she does then come back and want you to do monday, I would say sorry but I've already made plans, no can do. The evidence in the texts is already there that she definitely doesn't need you. I wouldn't worry about it.

[Chatterbox Childcare]

You are off, turn off your phone and don't answer the door lol She cannot just turn up when she feels like it.

I have a parent who booked off between xmas and new year and yesterday asked if I was working as DH decided to work. I said no as she didn't need me and I had made alternative arrangements.

When you do your contract you should specifiy how many days notice and a minimum fee (that way you get paid a minimum for the week)

[blue bear]

Draw yourself up a booking sheet, make sure it covers a fortnight at a time, list the dates in a column and next to it mu. Writes the times she will need you against the times.
On the form it should state, payment is due at time of booking, once booked payment is required regardless of use. If you advise me a child is not coming on a date you have previously booked I need xhours notification if you change your mind or the fee is still payable but I will not be able to provide care at such short notice.

Or something along those lines, make things more formal and parent will know where she stands. At the moment you have been letting her cancel last minute etc so you can't blame her for thinking its ok.

[Bluebell]

she has confirmed to you on Friday or Saturday that he is not coming. If you do not work weekends then I would do as Chatterbox has suggested and not answer mobile or reply to texts. You are not working, you have been told you are not working. I would draw all the curtains and have the lights off and have a lie in.
She has paid her money and confirmed she will not need you. Common manners mean she has no right to now turn up expecting you to work - regardless of how specific your contract is about short notice! If she had said can I let you know Sunday night or I might need you can I let you know Monday morning then I guess that's different because that's the space she has paid you for and you should be available BUT she has categorically told you NO she does NOT need you and therefore you have made plans. Its not to do with you having a day off - it might be to do with an outing you have planned with the other children or an extra child that has swopped a day (ie you are not making more money but you have accommodated someone else's needs based on what she has told you.)

She sounds like she is incredibly rude to last minute change on you like this and some ground rules need to be set - at least 48 hours or 7 days - something that is reasonable to both of you. How far in advance does she find out her work shifts?

I have to say this needs to be resolved because no doubt you are going to spend your weekend worrying about 'what if' she does turn up.

It might be as well to text saying As I won't be seeing you again before Christmas as you are not attending Monday I would very much like to wish you a very merry christmas - something that makes clear you are not expecting them.

[The Juggler]

she has confirmed to you on Friday or Saturday that he is not coming. If you do not work weekends then I would do as Chatterbox has suggested and not answer mobile or reply to texts. You are not working, you have been told you are not working. I would draw all the curtains and have the lights off and have a lie in.
She has paid her money and confirmed she will not need you. Common manners mean she has no right to now turn up expecting you to work - regardless of how specific your contract is about short notice! If she had said can I let you know Sunday night or I might need you can I let you know Monday morning then I guess that's different because that's the space she has paid you for and you should be available BUT she has categorically told you NO she does NOT need you and therefore you have made plans. Its not to do with you having a day off - it might be to do with an outing you have planned with the other children or an extra child that has swopped a day (ie you are not making more money but you have accommodated someone else's needs based on what she has told you.)

She sounds like she is incredibly rude to last minute change on you like this and some ground rules need to be set - at least 48 hours or 7 days - something that is reasonable to both of you. How far in advance does she find out her work shifts?

I have to say this needs to be resolved because no doubt you are going to spend your weekend worrying about 'what if' she does turn up.

It might be as well to text saying As I won't be seeing you again before Christmas as you are not attending Monday I would very much like to wish you a very merry christmas - something that makes clear you are not expecting them.


i agree and if she does turn up and wake you by hammering loudly. answer door sleepily in your pj's. ask her to wait in car whilst you have a shower etc and tell her categorically that you 've nothing really planned for her LO for the day as you weren't expecting him so it'll be a quiet day watching TV and a walk to the park.

[bunyip]

"Short notice" is whatever you allow it to be. What is stated in your contract? If it is not stated in your contract, then it needs to be.

Sounds like an urgent review is in order. :(

[samb]

I am not sure on this- I feel if I'm getting paid I should be aware that I may have to work anyway and if I wasn't prepared to I would refund them. It doesn't say anything in my contracts about this sort of situation- just thinking of what i would do.

[shortstuff]

IMO it comes down to communication. You need to let the parent know what notice you find acceptable and try to find out what the parent is able to achieve with the notice they get of working. Only once that discussion happens can you sort out the issues between you and the parent.

[bunyip]

Hope this doesn't sound harsh, but.............

If I understand the original post correctly this is, at best, a bit of a mess and, at worst, a dispute just waiting for the right time and place in which to happen.

It's the classic 'unwritten understanding' between well-meaning CM and well-meaning client, that can very quickly turn into an 'unwritten misunderstanding' and before you know it everyone is getting legal on one another.

CM says, "It's ok - I'm open and available."

Parent says, "It's ok - lo not coming."

But you suggest they've changed their mind before - and now, because you want to know, you're unhappy. Personally, if I were in your shoes, I'd accept that I'd given my word. So no lie-in: I prepare and sit and wait for lo to arrive, even if I'm waiting all day. Not ideal, but it'd be my what I committed to, and I'd feel obliged to stand by my word. My mistake, my consequences, my job to do something about it next time to make sure it doesn't carry on this way. But that's me.

The real issue is that you've made the classic mistake that a h3ll of a lot of us make. You want to sound helpful, obliging and be liked - so you've said you're happy with something that you're really not at all happy with. We all do it. It sounds like the parent also does it, though in the past she appears to have gone back on it and sent the lo anyway.

I think, at the bottom of all this, is a need to stop treating your business as a popularity contest and start treating it more like a business. That doesn't mean being unhelpful, but it does mean sometimes saying what you want instead of saying what you think people want to hear. And that is, after all, one of the joys of being self-employed that offsets the pain of doing tax returns and never being sure if we can make ends meet - so make the most of that freedom to say what you want out of it without being leaned on by some bullying manager. :)

Eventually, this will go one of 3 ways:-

1. You carry on being messed about by the parent (who might as well, since the invitation is there) and you get to resent the whole thing.
2. You make a decision to go out one day, but mum turns up and then she feels let down and maybe takes action.
3. You make a proper contractual agreement about how much notice you need to be sure whether lo is coming or not. This way, you can avert a fall-out and all be happy.

Oh, and don't feel I'm having a go, cos I think we've all done it at some point. I'd rather you learnt from my mistakes than repeat them. :thumbsup:

[Simona]

I find this thread interesting but I am getting confused as to whether we are talking about 'flexible' hours and shift work (shift workers usually have a roster and therefore book childcare as soon as they know their needs and pay in advance for the month the care is needed)...or are we talking about 'ad hoc care'?

Flexible care should not require notice if the hours have been agreed and paid in advance...while 'ad hoc' care does require some warning but no guarantee unless a place is available and so subject to availability

My personal view is that none of the 'off the shelf' contracts cover for these circumstances...as they do not cover 'funded' hours being stretched all year round now rather than the 38 weeks of term time.

Maybe CMs should look at adding Terms and Conditions to cover all these eventualities and cover the different patterns of work parents present us with and that should include overnight care if registered to do this.

[bunyip]

I find this thread interesting but I am getting confused as to whether we are talking about 'flexible' hours and shift work (shift workers usually have a roster and therefore book childcare as soon as they know their needs and pay in advance for the month the care is needed)...or are we talking about 'ad hoc care'?

Flexible care should not require notice if the hours have been agreed and paid in advance...while 'ad hoc' care does require some warning but no guarantee unless a place is available and so subject to availability

My personal view is that none of the 'off the shelf' contracts cover for these circumstances...as they do not cover 'funded' hours being stretched all year round now rather than the 38 weeks of term time.

Maybe CMs should look at adding Terms and Conditions to cover all these eventualities and cover the different patterns of work parents present us with and that should include overnight care if registered to do this.

I agree with what you say about 'off the shelf' contracts being inflexible. They seem to imply a rigid approach of "this is what I do and when I do it, so take it or leave it". It's as if they were designed to be used by nurseries rather than CMs. What's worrying is that I've previously been advised by the NCMA legal team not to add or remove any T&Cs before signing if I ever want to get legal support over a possible future contract dispute.

Not sure what you mean about stretching funded hours. Is this a local thing? Our LA tells us when they'll pay for funded hours, and that's the end of it as far as they're concerned.

I do think pacey et al need to look at this seriously. Work patterns are changing and getting ever further away from the 1950's John-and-Jane-book approach of nice happy families with Mon-to-Fri 9-to-5 jobs.

Worth bearing in mind that sometimes parents requirements may need to be flexible cos both parents work shift patterns. If, for example, one works a 4-week rotating pattern and the other a 6-week rotating pattern, then the 2 shift patterns will not intersect conveniently over the months. As a result, they'll have differing childcare needs each week, as the time when one parent will be at home will change week on week IYSWIM. Maybe this is the case for the OP's clients - or just the usual f4nnying about that happens around some workplaces at Christmas?

A lot of shift patterns are in fact very unpredictable. I worked on the railways for a big employer which still had a very strong union presence, so we had far better conditions than most. But many staff still had a lot of trouble predicting their future work pattern. Each group of stations had a team of 'group reserve' staff who were allocated as needed according to local conditions: covering staff holiday, sickness/absence, and events such as sports fixtures or concerts which could make a normally-sleepy station very busy on a given day. These 'reserve' staff could consider themselves very lucky if they got more than 5 days notice of where they were working and when. I was on the 'rostered' team and, in theory, could predict my shifts way in advance. But I was still required to work up to 4 hours compulsory overtime after a normal shift in certain circumstances, and could be given as little as 12 hours notice to attend on a rostered rest-day (day off) if a manager used their discretion to declare an official 'emergency'. Good job I didn't need childcare! :rolleyes:

[Simona]

I agree with what you say about 'off the shelf' contracts being inflexible. They seem to imply a rigid approach of "this is what I do and when I do it, so take it or leave it". It's as if they were designed to be used by nurseries rather than CMs. What's worrying is that I've previously been advised by the NCMA legal team not to add or remove any T&Cs before signing if I ever want to get legal support over a possible future contract dispute.

Not sure what you mean about stretching funded hours. Is this a local thing? Our LA tells us when they'll pay for funded hours, and that's the end of it as far as they're concerned.

I do think pacey et al need to look at this seriously. Work patterns are changing and getting ever further away from the 1950's John-and-Jane-book approach of nice happy families with Mon-to-Fri 9-to-5 jobs.

Worth bearing in mind that sometimes parents requirements may need to be flexible cos both parents work shift patterns. If, for example, one works a 4-week rotating pattern and the other a 6-week rotating pattern, then the 2 shift patterns will not intersect conveniently over the months. As a result, they'll have differing childcare needs each week, as the time when one parent will be at home will change week on week IYSWIM. Maybe this is the case for the OP's clients - or just the usual f4nnying about that happens around some workplaces at Christmas?

A lot of shift patterns are in fact very unpredictable. I worked on the railways for a big employer which still had a very strong union presence, so we had far better conditions than most. But many staff still had a lot of trouble predicting their future work pattern. Each group of stations had a team of 'group reserve' staff who were allocated as needed according to local conditions: covering staff holiday, sickness/absence, and events such as sports fixtures or concerts which could make a normally-sleepy station very busy on a given day. These 'reserve' staff could consider themselves very lucky if they got more than 5 days notice of where they were working and when. I was on the 'rostered' team and, in theory, could predict my shifts way in advance. But I was still required to work up to 4 hours compulsory overtime after a normal shift in certain circumstances, and could be given as little as 12 hours notice to attend on a rostered rest-day (day off) if a manager used their discretion to declare an official 'emergency'. Good job I didn't need childcare! :rolleyes:

Thanks Bunyip...lots to consider and I totally agree with you associations should take notice of cms and make sure their contracts cover us for all eventualities but I doubt anyone would come up with this in the near future.

I really feel it is up to cms who purchase contracts to be heard...I tried many times but got fed up with being told 'thank you for your suggestion we will look at it soon!!!...'soon' turned into years!!

Preschools only work term time and nurseries are mostly 8-6pm...so there is a huge need to look at the 'elasticity'/flexibility of cms and see whether this can be accommodated within parents ever increasing/complicated needs!

I did not mean you take away any T&C from their contract...what I found useful when I used the pacey contract for a short time was to add an extra page with T&C not included in theirs...but I found this too long winded and returned to my own contract with everything in one document. It saves me lots of time and paper...without mentioning trees!!

I know many cms are sceptical about own contracts but if they are well drawn up and checked by a solicitor...and this need not cost a fortune...they will stand up in any court!
Maybe I should consider drawing one up for cms to share!!

Funding used to be over the 38 weeks for 15 hrs per week (still is overall) but this is changing...parents can now take it as they please and stretch it over 52 weeks...a nightmare to administer I would imagine.
how one can stretch 15 hrs the DfE only knows but as the yearly total of free hrs is 570 some parents will manage somehow.
For instance parents can take the free (or shall we call it providers' subsidised education/childcare according to which politician we listen to) between 7am and 7pm now

Can't wait if the free hours get increased to 25...easy it will not be!

Shift work I know can be difficult as you say some employees get little notice...but others could manage their work pattern a bit better I feel.
CMs do go out of their way to accommodate parents and often end up in a messy situation.

I think in these cases cms can put these children on their 'self variation' for continuity of care while filling full time spaces and get steady income in...just a thought but that is what I would consider.

[natalieatk]

There contract is flexi as there shift workers..so I got a months days in advance the vary from one month to another! I will review this in the new year as they aren't on a minimum days which I didn't add to the contract and now regretting it as only got 8 shifts for December...anyway 9:30 Sunday night I haven't had a message to say child Is coming...
I disagree with "waiting in all day" as why should I if they have said they aren't coming. I would usually confirm they aren't coming..but I did that on Friday.
They have paid in advance so I haven't lost out. But just because they have paid me does not mean I should wait In all day incase they turn up...I do agree we all make mistakes an definatly do learn from them so all advice is welcome from everybody and I will definatly review contracts in the new year! If I do wake up to a text tomorrow I may have the child for the day as I wouldn't like to turn them down when they have paid but I will certainly make it clear if you cancel you can't change your mind at such short notice on future....seriously this job causes me lack of sleep over worrying sometimes...but I wouldn't work as anything else !!!

[Pixie dust]

Funding used to be over the 38 weeks for 15 hrs per week (still is overall) but this is changing...parents can now take it as they please and stretch it over 52 weeks...a nightmare to administer I would imagine.
how one can stretch 15 hrs the DfE only knows but as the yearly total of free hrs is 570 some parents will manage somehow.
For instance parents can take the free (or shall we call it providers' subsidised education/childcare according to which politician we listen to) between 7am and 7pm now

Can't wait if the free hours get increased to 25...easy it will not be!

.

We do this in our local area...I have a child that only uses 10 hours a week so he continues to get his funding during the holidays obviously this doesn't work if they have the full 15 hours a week.

[bunyip]

We do this in our local area...I have a child that only uses 10 hours a week so he continues to get his funding during the holidays obviously this doesn't work if they have the full 15 hours a week.

Unfortunately, this isn't an option in my area - so parents have to pay during the school holidays. I queried this with my LA, only to be told "it's for education, not just childcare." :mad: Needless to say, when I asked if the LA would therefore be prepared to write me a letter for Ofsted, excusing me from delivering the EYFS learning and development programme during school holidays (because you clearly can't be educated during the holidays, can you? :p) I was told I'd have to take the matter up with the DofE. :angry:

[Simona]

Unfortunately, this isn't an option in my area - so parents have to pay during the school holidays. I queried this with my LA, only to be told "it's for education, not just childcare." :mad: Needless to say, when I asked if the LA would therefore be prepared to write me a letter for Ofsted, excusing me from delivering the EYFS learning and development programme during school holidays (because you clearly can't be educated during the holidays, can you? :p) I was told I'd have to take the matter up with the DofE. :angry:

Your LA is correct in saying that the funding is for 'education' not childcare but if you look at the DfE own guidance to LAs it looks like parents can use the 15 hrs as and when they like and 'at times which fit with the needs of parents'
Look at page 9 and see if you interpret it the same way

Early education and childcare - About the Department (http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/statutory/g00209650/code-of-practice-for-las)