Very naughty girl!!

[jadavi]

Trying to catch your attention with that title.
I need your advice please.

We have a two year old girl who has a lot of speech but only speaks when she wants something - no to and fro chat or book reading. No real engagement or empathy with us or others.
She will not settle to anything but always stays on the periphery of events watching or more worryingly up to mischief . I don't normally use that expression but I have never had a child like this. She will climb onto anything and try and jump off. She'll fetch the collapsible stool from the loo into the kitchen stand on it and twiddle with the stove controls. We have to watch her like a hawk. Today she went back for the stool ten times each time being told to take it back by us. It's like she just doesn't hear us although she will do what we say.
What has particularly prompted me to post (on the request of her mum) is that she pushes children over when she tries to have fun with them. They are all scared of her now. We put her on the thinking chair and talk about behaviour and she says sorry so she can get off the chair I think.
She puts herself on the time out chair (as they call it at home) and thinks as long as she says sorry its all ok. Never any understanding of what she did.
We have tried excessive praise etc but mum is thinking its time for much stricter boundaries.
Normally i would bring out really enticing activities to distract her but she will not settle.
She is obsessed with doing up buckles and opening and shutting drawers opening and closing doors gates etc
She is having awful meltdowns at home and hitting her mum when she can't get her own way.
She is hugely energetic and wants to jump up and down the whole time but when we do an energetic activity or DVD like tumble tots she won't join in. When we do circle dances at group (ring a roses etc) she wants to just dance in the middle and not join in.
Any ideas? It's getting worse as she gets bigger. (She is a really big girl )

[smurfette]

Is she very bright? I have a little fella like this who seems to need more stimulation than others same age .. Not saying you don't of course,
But maybe she isn't as
Much at home and is used to that ? I know parents are often tired at end of day and Los can get more tv than might be wise But maybe she doesn't sit to do jigsaws etc? I also have an 18 month old like yours, she just is more naturally curious and into everything but also (having taking her to the zoo today and letting her have more of a free rein) I think she doesn't do anything she doesn't want to! In this case big sis has a long term illness so in and out of Hosp so parents are exhausted .. Is it possible uour mum isn't disciplining as much as she says and hopes you will sort it?!

[jadavi]

Thanks

Actually the mum is quite strict but the dad is liberal with her.
They do a lot with her. She is an only child. Parents have loads of time with her
Because her communication skills are so poor i don't feel she is of high intelligence and her attention span is really low.
The stimulus we give her seems to miss the target all the time.
How to stop the pushing?
No sanctions seem to work

X

[jadavi]

Any other ideas?

I told the mum this forum is very helpful and she's desperate xx

[smurfette]

Any other ideas? I told the mum this forum is very helpful and she's desperate xxcould be because dad is a push over he really needs to be on board as it will only get worse :(

[jadavi]

Good ideA. Will suggest that.

It's like she can't help it though....-acts on instincts.
If she was older we could try a reward chart for not pushing- but 23 months is too young imo

[kime]

My son is 28 months & since his second birthday I have done a really simple reward chart with him. If he plays nicely, shares doesn't push he gets a star. One on his chart one on his t shirt! He is bright & is starting to understand it a bit so might be worth a try x HTH

[FloraDora]

I appreciate that you gave this heading to get attention so I am assuming that nobody really thinks this LO is a very naughty girl!
She is just a little girl who is desperately trying to communicate her feelings, but isn't yet able to do so in the way adults expect....the answer I think is to get to the bottom of her frustrations and support her in communicating her feelings in a supportive way.

http://www.professionalparenting.ca/articles/PP123timeout.pdf
This is good reading about the disadvantages of using time out....which might offer some insight into this little ones distress.

Praise and encouragement through words and actions and not rewards of stickers etc.. Is the way I think works...
Research on this is in abundance ....

'Dr. T. Berry Brazelton believes that rewards narrow goals for children and take away opportunities for children to choose to do something because it is the right thing to do. He believes when rewards are used diminishes children wanting to do good thinks for their own reasons.'

The 'Nanny ' programmes that prompted time out and sticker charts have got a lot to answer for...they never stayed long term with the families....there was no follow up to show the long term issues...

Just do a few google searches around the issues you outined that this distressed LO is having and you will find real research with long term benefits ....that might help.

I hope you and the parents find a way to help her soon.

[bunnyjess]

When I first read this what sprung to mind is autism? Don't know for sure obviously but may be worth looking into?

[Tazmin68]

Hi
Sounds like my oldest son when he was similar age. Has since been diagnosed with aspergers and ADHD.

[jadavi]

Thanks I really appreciate the answers

I totally agree with you flora Dora but it doesn't seem to be working and we need something more.

I detest reward schemes too and find them often counter productive (children behaving well to get a reward but not because they understand why)

Yes the title was tongue in cheek. Of course she's not naughty. Like you I don't really believe in naughtiness but looking for the core reasons.

I do feel though (and so does mum) that something very very structured has to be in place to take advantage of her very impressionable and formative third year coming up....

[jadavi]

I have to stress this is not a shun the child 'time out' chair but sitting together away from the others to talk about what happened.
I know time out chair is frowned upon by ofsted. We call it a thinking chair and sit quietly together.
There is no question of leaving her to play in the group after she exhibits this aggressive behaviour. We have to have some kind of temporary withdrawal.

[sing-low]

Sounds to me like this might need referring onto a specialist - maybe via the HV or GP? To diagnose/rule out the autism/ADHD/aspbergers that others have suggested. You outline quite a few issues (how is she doing with her EYOs?) and say that Mum is desperate. You'd also then get some specific help (hopefully) targeted to the child and family. This might be a way to get Dad on board too. Not an easy one - they must be glad they have you to support them.:thumbsup:

[jadavi]

What sort of specialist would that be?
I'm also beginning to think aspergers and ADHD too.

Very very hard conversation to have with the parents.

They say she is simply 'spirited' and nothing more. Very defensive.

I will be doing her 2 year assessment in three weeks... Could that maybe trigger some sort of consultation? I have no faith in health visitors I'm afraid - have never seen any evidence of meaningful intervention when needed....

[sing-low]

To be honest, I really don't know what kind of specialist. If you're doing the two year check, that may be an opportunity to suggest to the parents that their child needs more help than you (and they) can give her. It will give you a chance to spell out in black and white that she is not where you would expect developmentally.

I agree with you about health visitors, but from parent's point of view that might be more palatable than going straight to the GP. HV tends to be seen as for behavioural problems, GPs for a medical 'condition' and that may be a step too far. You may need to have to do some hand-holding.

One option would be for you to do some reading up on ADHD/aspergers (would obviously start by searching this Forum!) and if things seem to 'fit' that may help with a conversation with parents. But, yes, not easy at all!

[jadavi]

Thanks

I did used to be a teacher of children on the autistic spectrum and particularly with aspergers but that was from five up.

I will research aspergers and ADHD in two year olds .

If the HV agrees I don't know where she would refer her. Anyone know?

[jadavi]

Can anyone recommend a site about specifically early years with these conditions?

[Simona]

Can anyone recommend a site about specifically early years with these conditions?

I have replied to your other thread...this will take a bit of patience and time to get resolved

I would not label this child with anything or jump into a diagnosis about various possible additional needs ..share what the parents do at home with her and what you do and find a 'shared strategy' so the child is not confused
At age 2 children need very strong boundaries.
The fact she 'sits herself on a time out chair' is very worrying...does not look to me as if it is working and how humiliating for a toddler full of spirit to be sat on a chair or rewarded with a chart....

Give her time to get into her '2 year old' phase of development out of her system...with good guidance she will thrive, keep her well observed and if you still have worries in around 4 months start asking mum to take to the Health Visitor

[jadavi]

Thanks. I think I will delay doing the 2 y O assessment until I am more sure something is up.

We (me and mum) both feel the thinking chair is not really working. But we have to remove her from the play situ when it happens to protect the other children. They are all very scared of her now.

[Tazmin68]

It is extremely rare for a child to referred to paediatian doctor with regards to autism spectrum until referred via pre school, school or parent and at earliest around 4 years of age. I would say read up on it and if ticking a number of boxes then perhaps show parents what indicators you can see for them to think about. My son was never physical with it but another mindee child who also has ADHD is and it was due to a private nursery excluding him for a couple of days with regards to his behaviour and the written notes that nursery made that prompted parents to take child to gp who was then referred. Once diagnosed it is with the help and support from various agencies that this child's behaviour improved dramatically.
The main indicators with my son are.
1. Cannot cope very well with changes to routine.
2. Has sensory issues with taste and texture of food.
3. Hates loud noises hands over ears.
4. Has no empathy with others.
5. Takes things said very literally.
6. Will have a meltdown when overloaded with information.

He is now 10 and has a special card that he holds up when he needs time out in class. Unfortunately at this age other children also know what buttons to press to wind him up.

When he was 2/3 he had night terrors. Would only drink from a particular cup. Very focused on technology and computers and would not interact much with other children and do his own thing. No interest in imagination or role play.

My mindee on the other hand had no sense of danger and still is the same now and is 8 years old. He used to press the panic buttons on my house alarm. He improved once on medication but that does not work for all children.

[jadavi]

Thanks Tazmin

What would you suggest we put in place for our two y o? The pushing is our immediate concern and the thinking chair does not seem to be working...
Also she won't engage with anything other than painting her hands. She wants to just run up and down and climb on things and jump off.

My feeling is we should offer her very structured activities but I can't spare a person to work one to one most of the day.

I hear myself saying no to her nearly all day and think what a lousy to she must be having ...

[FussyElmo]

Thanks Tazmin

What would you suggest we put in place for our two y o? The pushing is our immediate concern and the thinking chair does not seem to be working...
Also she won't engage with anything other than painting her hands. She wants to just run up and down and climb on things and jump off.

My feeling is we should offer her very structured activities but I can't spare a person to work one to one most of the day.

I hear myself saying no to her nearly all day and think what a lousy to she must be having ...

Maybe its because Im only reading what you are saying and don't actually know the child but im just reading about a spirited child.

You say the time out child is not working well I think it is to her. As you have said someone sits with her and talks about what has happened I think this child has learnt that that if she pushes another child she gets someones undivided attention. Doesn't matter that its not positive.

You say you think she needs structured activites but she just wants to run up and down and climb things how often does she get to this?

I know that you don't mean to but there has been two threads about this child and there hasn't been one positive about her :(

The problem with reading up on the condition which you probably know with you teaching children of aspergers is that a lot of people/children will have aspects of them but not have adhd etc.

Its hard to reply because as I said further up without ever seeing the child Im reading about its just a spirited child to me. Very similar to a child at toddler group. She will push other children over repeatly but since I told mum not to make a big issue of her but the victim and just to sit her daughter next to her without a word the pushing is decreasing because the other child is receiving the attention not her.

[Simona]

I agree with many points Fussy Elmo said in her reply especially the reference to this child being spirited and all the negativity around the strategies for guiding her behaviour...I would also point out she is not even 2...one of the most challenging phases in a child's life and we now see her as 'naughty'...I don't think she is

I would suggest that you and mum draw up some common strategies to 'reinforce' positive behaviour and 'ignore' the negative...this is a common worry at that age and you can easily research it and apply to her as she is unique
There are also many other things you could try but time out is not, in my view, ideal in a toddler....how can she be spoken to if her language and communication are about to undergo a huge leap in development...she may not be able to express her view or tell you why she behaves in that way because her language is probably not fluent enough as yet
Time out is for 'reflection' on consequences ...I doubt this child is at that stage

She is being punished but I feel you could re-channel her energy in an effective and positive way...keep observing her, give her challenging activities to stretch her learning, praise her good behaviour and ignore the rest

let us know how you get on.

Positive Guidance Techniques | Education.com (http://www.education.com/reference/article/positive-guidance-techniques/)

[hectors house]

8024

This is a copy of a poster I was given on a Behaviour & positive relationship course recently - sometimes it is us and our settings which need to change to fully meet the needs of the child.

Hope the ideas on here help everyone to think carefully about combining "A unique child" and "Enabling Environments"

[jadavi]

Thanks

Like I said before I don't believe in naughty (or negative sanctions either) and used the word on the title to get attention - sorry.
I am very liberal and a non disciplinarian normally and our setting is very free flow and not particularly structured.

We could try making a fuss of the victim of the pushing Fussy Elmo - good idea. We can't leave her in the group after she has pushed as the others wont feel protected (they are already very scared) so like I said there has to be some temporary withdrawal and we have to address the behaviour - it is too disruptive to ignore.

I did a thread on the nurtured heart approach a few years back which is exactly as you say - excessive praise and ignoring the negative. (Little boy who was being hit at home by mum and was hurting people here including my guinea pigs - you may remember?) we have been doing that for a few months. The result was she has become more affectionate to mum but this unwanted behaviour is unchanged.

I agree I have been talking about the negative which makes me sad but then this forum is for helping each other with knotty difficult problems isn't it?

I always think (from my teacher's days) if you are finding a child hard work and not enjoying her at all then she is feeling exactly the same, probably worse. Hardly ideal. But here we are , she is in my setting and I am committed to finding out what is in her best interests.

I can see we are not meeting her needs as she spends most of her time hanging up and down our long corridor not engaging with anything - just sucking her thumb. She does not appear unhappy but she is clearly not happy.

Short of giving her more physical challenges its hard to know where to go. She has been coming here since 16 weeks so is completely settled.
I will try and open that poster - thanks.

Apologies for keeping going on. I have no one to talk to about these things and the forum is my lifeline

[Simona]

Thanks

Like I said before I don't believe in naughty (or negative sanctions either) and used the word on the title to get attention - sorry.
I am very liberal and a non disciplinarian normally and our setting is very free flow and not particularly structured.

We could try making a fuss of the victim of the pushing Fussy Elmo - good idea. We can't leave her in the group after she has pushed as the others wont feel protected (they are already very scared) so like I said there has to be some temporary withdrawal and we have to address the behaviour - it is too disruptive to ignore.

I did a thread on the nurtured heart approach a few years back which is exactly as you say - excessive praise and ignoring the negative. (Little boy who was being hit at home by mum and was hurting people here including my guinea pigs - you may remember?) we have been doing that for a few months. The result was she has become more affectionate to mum but this unwanted behaviour is unchanged.

I agree I have been talking about the negative which makes me sad but then this forum is for helping each other with knotty difficult problems isn't it?

I always think (from my teacher's days) if you are finding a child hard work and not enjoying her at all then she is feeling exactly the same, probably worse. Hardly ideal. But here we are , she is in my setting and I am committed to finding out what is in her best interests.

I can see we are not meeting her needs as she spends most of her time hanging up and down our long corridor not engaging with anything - just sucking her thumb. She does not appear unhappy but she is clearly not happy.

Short of giving her more physical challenges its hard to know where to go. She has been coming here since 16 weeks so is completely settled.
I will try and open that poster - thanks.

Apologies for keeping going on. I have no one to talk to about these things and the forum is my lifeline

Jadavi...you have posted this in 2 threads to get attention...I am not convinced, my view of course, using the word 'naughty' has attracted the right attention or provided you with an answer

It is obvious to me that you need help and professional support on this matter as the topic you are dealing with is complex and requires professional input

There is plenty you can read about and then I would suggest you refer the child to the HV, if necessary, but before you do that make sure you have extensive observations on her behaviour and please please stop labelling her naughty or trying to guess what her condition could be.

[suzyblue]

I have a little girl that sounds just like this. She likes to climb, run, doesnt listen, has speech problems etc. She is nearing 3 now and has changed a lot. Her speech has come on and she has calmed down a lot. She engages with the other children and with activities. Maybe accommodate her physical preferences (within reason! - we used to clear the room as much as possible, open doors to access all rooms, use soft play, pushchairs, shopping trolleys etc) Hopefully she will change as she matures.

[jadavi]

Yes I am doing a lot more physical things with that helps.
I started another thread on specific possible conditions ie ADHD

[jadavi]

Sorry that sent too soon.

Sorry if the word naughty offended - I have already apologised here but actually a lot of people including her parents do call her that when she pushes people. (Our church Playgroup too)

I am not using any of these labels to the parents and am only discussing what they mean here on the forum which is a safe space for us and i see no reason not to air ideas among friends here. Don't answer the thread if it irritates you!

I have no intention of worrying the parents more, especially as there is nowhere to go with this until she is three anyway. Most of my families either say that they don't have a health visitor or don't rate them highly.

Having had her again today and organised my time so I could do an hour one to one with her, i realise she can maintain attention somewhat longer when with an engaged adult than when on her own. I think she is scared off by the others reaction to her and chooses to distance herself often. We are targeting socialising support with her and spent a long time this afternoon running up and down the setting with her and all the other children holding our hands so she couldn't hurt them. They were able to all laugh together which was lovely for her.

[FloraDora]

Sorry if the word naughty offended - I have already apologised here but actually a lot of people including her parents do call her that when she pushes people. (Our church Playgroup too)

I am not using any of these labels to the parents and am only discussing what they mean here on the forum which is a safe space for us and i see no reason not to air ideas among friends here. Don't answer the thread if it irritates you!

Just because people call her that it doesn't make it right.

If we are to be seen as a professional person alongside other childcare professionals we have to always express ourselves using the best words. This forum is also viewed by our LA and other professionals who form opinions about childminders.

Calling a child naughty is not acceptable ( I know I have said this before!) especially so when it is linked with possible special educational needs.... Your apologies are always followed by a reason which, in my experience, means that you think you are ok to say it.

Even amongst friends ..... There isn't one set of acceptable words that we wouldn't use when discussing children with special needs with other professionals.
I thought this forum was really good for discussing things through, reflecting on the threads and moving forward in our practise.

[jadavi]

Thanks for the reminder Flora Dora

To clarify - I was explaining why i used the term rather than justifying using it. A bit like reverse psychology we see so often in adverts. I can see though, that this forum is not the place for that.

I take your point though and I value the points you made earlier.

[Simona]

Jadavi...please lets move on from this
I see you have made progress today and that is truly good news

I was not offended or irritated but for those who know me well I have always detested 'labelling' children: SEN, EAL, Down, autistic, Asperger, ADHD etc etc.
I feel so strongly I actually have it in my behaviour management policy...naughty is not used in my setting.
I know that parents do call their children naughty but it is not necessary and neither are all the labels we put so easily on children when we need to describe 'additional needs' or certain disabilities or learning difficulties

Labels stick, they hurt and lower children's 'self esteem'
The funny thing about this someone from a call centre recently was trying to explain something to me and it was not really that clear at all...the person told me 'excuse me but you are EAL'...well I was not pleased!!

[jadavi]

Very happy to move on.,.

This thread actually has been really helpful to me and it has - imo - been useful for people to be reminded that labels can be damaging and self fulfilling even though that was so not my intention