My environment is causing child's aggressive behaviour

[Keeley77]

Hi,

Not sure if any of you will remember seeing my message last monday regarding the almost 3yr old child who hurt her finger whilst trying to hit my daughter (it wasn't broken by the way - if you did read my message last week) - She only comes on a monday- for 10 hours. So here is an update on the behaviour....

Today mindee has been pushing and kicking and lying on top of other children, all pretty standard behaviour from her - I try to deal with it by telling her about what is and isn't acceptable etc and using time - out where necessary and also distraction. But just before mum turned up to collect I found her trying to strangle my daughter to get hold of a drum that she wanted to play with, which my daughter (also 3) was currently using! I was in the kitchen and they were both in the living room (connected to the kitchen) - I heard a really odd sound like a child choking and discovered what was going on. Mindee had my daughter in a head lock so she couldnt breath or call out for help!!

I told the Mum what had happened and after initially telling her child that her behaviour was unacceptable - she said 'it MUST be the environment as she never behaves like that anywhere else' she also emphasised the fact that i wasn't in the room.

Great so its obviously my fault.

Mindee attends a nursery for one morning a week and I have asked if they have ever raised any concerns there and she said that they have only ever mentioned one thing where she was trying to get the same toy as another child and they scratched each other. (Ive also been told by the parents of another child in my setting, who is close friends with this family that she quite regulary hits their child when they are togther outside of my setting) - I have obviously not divulged this info to the mum as it would be breach of confidentiallity, but it does make it difficult for me when she says that 'she always plays so nicely with *** when theyre at each others houses' I just have to bight my tongue!!

This mindee is only with me on a temp contract and due to finish end of Dec. but after todays comments i'm tempted to send her an email saying that as she feels that environment is contributing to her daughters behaviour that its probably in everyones best interests if she finds her a new setting as soon as possible!

What do you all think?? and how would you deal with the violent behaviour?

Sorry for ranting.

[Bluebell]

wow this is really tricky - its almost like mum is in denial!

I was going to suggest what you wrote - if she is blaming the environment then I think it would be fair to say sorry I can't do this....
Its unfair on the other children so something has to be done.

Mum might change her story of you give notice (about it being your environment)

Its to the end of December and its one day a week - it depends how bad it is but it sounds pretty terrible - I would be tempted to say its time to go!

[AdeleMarie88]

wow this is really tricky - its almost like mum is in denial!

I was going to suggest what you wrote - if she is blaming the environment then I think it would be fair to say sorry I can't do this....
Its unfair on the other children so something has to be done.

Mum might change her story of you give notice (about it being your environment)

Its to the end of December and its one day a week - it depends how bad it is but it sounds pretty terrible - I would be tempted to say its time to go!

I agree, its not ideal timing just before Xmas to loose a child, however, if Mom isn't behind you, supporting you, then its incredibly likely that her behaviour will get worse, and you don't want your DD to have to suffer!!!

Put your child first :) xx

[clairer]

Wow that's pretty serious to find your own child being strangled. You have to do what you feel is the right thing for your daughter and your family.

[Bluebell]

you know maybe you should put in writing it is NOT your environment because you have never had a child so badly behaved!

Are there any safeguarding concerns that are been triggered by child's odd behaviour? Do you have an advisor that you could chat to about this ?

[line6]

I agree, its not ideal timing just before Xmas to loose a child, however, if Mom isn't behind you, supporting you, then its incredibly likely that her behaviour will get worse, and you don't want your DD to have to suffer!!! Put your child first :) xx

Totally agree with this. You are never going to be able to make progress with this child. Your child (or another in your setting) could be seriously hurt. It is NOT your fault.

[tigwig]

It is obviously your decision but having a 3yr old myself, I have to say if I ever found a mindee trying to strangle him that badly I would be giving immediate notice due to unacceptable behaviour. Unless it was a one off which clearly in the case of your mindee it isn't! Good luck in making your decision :)

[Koala]

I wouldn't give a monkeys about mindee and mums feelings - if I felt they were endangering my child or any other in my care they would be out on their ear.

If you don't want the mindee (and I wouldn't blame you) I would terminate contract with immediate effect stating the fact that the child has endangered others - mum will have to either wise up or suck it up.

Or just plod along, it's only 4 more weeks of your Mondays being ruined by this little :censored: and accept it, be super prepared - don't leave her alone with anyone and forget about trying to reason with mum as 'it ain't gonna happen' she is obviously oblivious whilst everyone whispers behind her back. We all know families like that.

Either way your not going to win - one way you lose 4 days pay, keep your sanity but get a load of hassle from a parent who thinks the sun shines out of her little ones bla de bla, the other you keep your pay but loose 4 Mondays peace but you can at least say GOOD :censored: Bye, Bon Voyage, Auf wiedersehn and never have space for them again. Ask yourself can you stand it/her? What is best for you?

I think I would probably make lo my special little friend and she will not leave my side at all when she is at my house, I go in the kitchen - so does she, I go outside - so does she, I go to the bathroom - she gets strapped in a high chair or push chair. I wouldn't trust her as far as I could throw her - so she gets to come but 'she sits at the front of the class' if you know what I mean.

Good luck with the little madam and the big one too! :thumbsup:

[jadavi]

No I'd serve notice if the mum is trying to blame you and not working with you.

[hectors house]

Difficult one - depends on how much you need that money, it is only one day a week so possibly £35 - £45 a day income - I think for such a small amount of money I would give immediate notice. Good luck

[Mummits]

I think I'd do a bit of each of what several others have suggested - first by putting the ball in Mum's court, saying that you are doing everything in your power to manage the LO's behaviour, but that if she feels as a parent that it would be in her child's best interests to be at home or elsewhere, I would be happy to accept her immediate withdrawal and forego notice...

Then if she decides to continue to send her you can show that the parent had a choice and thought your setting best for her child.

But if she does stay (for a blessedly short while!) I would also have her on a very short rein - in sight and hearing if not physically restrained - at all times.

Good luck :D

[Essbops]

I won't put up with any violence towards my own children this is their home first and my business second. I'm sorry but the mindee would be out I even have a clause in my contracts that state any violence can result in termination with no notice.
I may be harsh but I have a duty of care to all the children here and I would hate to think my child was somewhere they could get hurt. I don't think you should put up with it if it makes u unhappy

[KatieFS]

Got to agree with other comments. Ill put up with a lot but not aggressive behaviour against me or my children. No amount of money is worth it.

If mum isn't working with you, and you only have child once a week then it's going to be very difficult to change behaviour of this little one. Mum maybe sounds embarrassed upset in denial. If you otherwise get in well - You could call her later this week when dust settles and be honest with her...??

Good luck - what an awful situation. X

[rickysmiths]

I have to agree and i would be upset if this had happened to any child in my care.

To start with I would document everything including the information shared with the Nursery.

Secondly I would ask the mum to a meeting and I would invite her to bring someone with her and I would have some one with me as a witness as mum seems to not like to admit to the behaviour of hr child.

At the meeting I would explain to mum that I would be taking notes that I will write up and we will both sign as a true record of the conversation.

I would then discuss the child's behaviour and what needs to happen to address it. Such as never leaving the child in the room alone with others albeit in the next room, I would suggest a few things that the child could have to do in the room with you while you get tea or snacks for example, I would also discuss a reward/sticker scheme to see if gaining stickers with a small reward for so many would help and maybe this could be done at home as well, agree with the parent what reward and are they going to provide or you.

I would then put them on immediate notice pending a change in behaviour in that one more episode of the behaviour she demonstrated towards your daughter or similar either to your children or minded children will result in a call and immediate removal. I would make it clear that if this happens payment for the full notice period or up to the end of the Contract (which ever is in your Contract) will still be due.

At least if you do this if the woman Complains to Ofsted if you ask them to leave, you can put your hand on your heart and prove that you have done everything in your power to work with the parents.

[Keeley77]

I don't know what to do. Part of me is concerned that if I try and terminate the contract then she will bad mouth me and make some sort of allegation against me.

She was supposed to get back to me today with the days she wanted for December so that I can invoice but ive not heard from her.

Im considering emailing her tonight and just saying as ive not heard from her regarding hours i assume that she has now sorted out the new setting that ***** will be attending and wish her the best of luck for the future!! (she was looking for new nursery for jan anyway)

However this is probably wishful thinking and im just trying to avoid having to say that actually I don't want her child in my setting anymore because her behaviour isnt acceptable!!

I was also wondering if I could blame my insurance company (im such a coward) and say something along the lines of ....that I have had to report the recent incidents to them and they have stated that I must have a zero tolerance clause in my behaviour policy and contracts that states that violent or aggressive behaviour will not be accepted and any child presenting with such behaviour will be excluded. -

To ensure the safety of the other children in the setting and to make sure that my insurance is valid I'm going to have to request that you find alternative childcare for your child.

[AdeleMarie88]

I don't know what to do. Part of me is concerned that if I try and terminate the contract then she will bad mouth me and make some sort of allegation against me. She was supposed to get back to me today with the days she wanted for December so that I can invoice but ive not heard from her. Im considering emailing her tonight and just saying as ive not heard from her regarding hours i assume that she has now sorted out the new setting that ***** will be attending and wish her the best of luck for the future!! (she was looking for new nursery for jan anyway) However this is probably wishful thinking and im just trying to avoid having to say that actually I don't want her child in my setting anymore because her behaviour isnt acceptable!! I was also wondering if I could blame my insurance company (im such a coward) and say something along the lines of ....that I have had to report the recent incidents to them and they have stated that I must have a zero tolerance clause in my behaviour policy and contracts that states that violent or aggressive behaviour will not be accepted and any child presenting with such behaviour will be excluded. - To ensure the safety of the other children in the setting and to make sure that my insurance is valid I'm going to have to request that you find alternative childcare for your child.

If you are finding it tough to be straight with mom, (I don't blame you!) then yes you could say you have to report incidents to Ofsted/insurance company , depends how in the know she is.

However, To Ensure you don't get unstuck in the lie, it would prob be better to just say, as a parent first , childminder second, I would rather say goodbye now, before anything worse happens. You could even turn it around and say that you are worried a child may retaliate, and the child in question will end up getting hurt too! I'm sure that would make mom listen.

You can't worry about it affecting your business, not at the cost of your child's happiness. It would be more detrimental to your business if other children went home injured all the time!

Be brave, tell mom straight. Why not send her an email this evening saying you want to discuss this with her tomorrow? Draft it out in bullet points first if you want! X

[rickysmiths]

I don't know what to do. Part of me is concerned that if I try and terminate the contract then she will bad mouth me and make some sort of allegation against me.

She was supposed to get back to me today with the days she wanted for December so that I can invoice but ive not heard from her.

Im considering emailing her tonight and just saying as ive not heard from her regarding hours i assume that she has now sorted out the new setting that ***** will be attending and wish her the best of luck for the future!! (she was looking for new nursery for jan anyway)

However this is probably wishful thinking and im just trying to avoid having to say that actually I don't want her child in my setting anymore because her behaviour isnt acceptable!!

I was also wondering if I could blame my insurance company (im such a coward) and say something along the lines of ....that I have had to report the recent incidents to them and they have stated that I must have a zero tolerance clause in my behaviour policy and contracts that states that violent or aggressive behaviour will not be accepted and any child presenting with such behaviour will be excluded. -

To ensure the safety of the other children in the setting and to make sure that my insurance is valid I'm going to have to request that you find alternative childcare for your child.


To my mind the only way to deal with this and save your back if she does Complain to Ofsted is to have a face to face meeting with her as soon as possible. Believe me I have been their and saved myself by documenting and talking.

STOP emailing and texting.

Write a proper letter inviting her to a meeting asap to discuss the way forward and her requirements for December. Make sure you have someoneelse at the meeting with you.

HAND deliver it to her house at a time you think she may be home and if the lights are on knock on the door and hand it over but it then gives you a chance to say what she will see you have put in the letter. If she is not in at least you can say and know that she got the letter again take someone with you or tell someone you are going at least. This is all about protecting yourself and trying to solve the situation. You have to be completely professional about it and not emotional.

As for the behaviour of the child. You have to manage it and number one never leave her alone with other children. If you have to leave the room for whatever reason she goes with you, even if you go to the loo she sits outside with a book. She will soon get bored with this and it may cure the behaviour or at the very least hope to moderate it. It sounds as if she make be entertained 24/7 at home and expects attention all the time which you can't do but you need to keep her occupied. I would plan all her days with you through December in detail and when you meet with mum give her a copy, I would add ideas of how she could extend some of the activities at home. Get mum to sign for this so you can demonstrate that you are working with the parent and put a copy in the child's Learning Journal.

You have too remove yourself from the emotional reason to this child to a professional one.

It seems a shame for the sake of 3 Mondays to give up, loose the money and let the mum down.

You never know you may be able to turn it around and find this child is lovely and rewarding. In my experience (20 years) a three year old's behaviour is rarely a problem for long. They go through stages and this just naturally occur sometimes for no clear reason and they are affected by changes in the child's life. A 10 hour day is a long day especially as a one day a week. Has she always been with mum up to now? Maybe she resents coming away and finds the day very long. Does she have a sleep in the day? Maybe this would help?

I hope this doesn't sound harsh it is not meant to be. I hope the info helps.

[Koala]

I am sure other parents and anyone who will listen to her (if she were to bad mouth you) knows the score when it comes to childs behaviour and in reality you could do yourself some good in giving him the boot. I know the score with a lot of children and the gossip grape vine gets around about the 'naughty' ones and the parents in denial!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: So I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Don't worry about ofsted either - you will get a medal for having zero tollerence on violent/bad behaviour, they are not stupid. Just state the facts and if she is a pain just say that everything has been documented and lo attempt to injure other children has been logged and filed for insurance and legality to safeguard the children involved.. And issue an ASBO!! :D

[rickysmiths]

I know I am not going to be popular saying this but I am shocked at how easily Registered Childminders seem to be able to effectively right off a 3 year old.

Generally speaking 3 yr olds are not violent. It may be copied behaviour through personal experience or by viewing unsuitable TV/DVD material or games. In which case it could be a child protection/safeguarding issue?

It may just be a phase that the child is going through it can happen and does happen, a child who has been fine can change into a fighting screaming banshee!! Sometimes referred to as 'The Terrible Twos'.

Surely it is up to us as the childcare professional to work with the parent to try and get to the bottom of whatever the issue is and try and manage the child's behaviour?

If we feel is is a Child Protection issue it must be reported and suitable actions put in place.

If it is a 'Terrible Twos' then can we not offer support and help to the parent? They may be a first parent/young parent who may be glad of help and advice. Direct them to their local Children's Centre who ma do parenting sessions, they may be able to help the parent via an outreach worker, remember that all under fives should be registered with their local CC and they are there to give help and support. The Health Visitor's are there as well and every under five has one.

I find it sad as an experienced Childminder that the greater part of advise given on this thread is to get rid of the child. This child is only 3. :(

[rickysmiths]

I am sure other parents and anyone who will listen to her (if she were to bad mouth you) knows the score when it comes to childs behaviour and in reality you could do yourself some good in giving him the boot. I know the score with a lot of children and the gossip grape vine gets around about the 'naughty' ones and the parents in denial!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: So I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Don't worry about ofsted either - you will get a medal for having zero tollerence on violent/bad behaviour, they are not stupid. Just state the facts and if she is a pain just say that everything has been documented and lo attempt to injure other children has been logged and filed for insurance and legality to safeguard the children involved.. And issue an ASBO!! :D

Really? This child you are talking about is ONLY three for goodness sake. What about Safeguarding them? Are you really saying you couldn't manage this child's behaviour?

[Koala]

Really? This child you are talking about is ONLY three for goodness sake. What about Safeguarding them? Are you really saying you couldn't manage this child's behaviour?

I think you should read all the thread to get a grip on the situation!!

I am not saying anything of the sort - I don't know the child.

I am saying that some children DO HAVE very poor respect for boundaries, other people and rules and so do their parents. If this is how they wish to behave I do not feel that ANYONE needs to put up with it. Continued disrespect for common courtesy and simple values like NOT HURTING anyone should not be tolerated and does not have to be tolerated.

Sometimes I get fed up with everyone else having to be put as risk, feel threatened and generally miserable because of the lack of consequences for other peoples behaviour. Sometimes it does take a wake up call for both parents and children to loose privileges to realize they cannot behave like this. And I believe being able to go in to someone else s home, have someone else care for your child, play with their toys and be cared for is a privilege for both parents and children and therefore they both have a responsibility to respect this.

[AdeleMarie88]

Really? This child you are talking about is ONLY three for goodness sake. What about Safeguarding them? Are you really saying you couldn't manage this child's behaviour? You my be right, but as the original post Said, she has tried to speak to mom on several occasions, but she is receiving no support, just blame. And other children in her care, including her own, are being injured because of it. If mom will not provide support or reasoning to this behaviour, then of course a CM has the right to give notice. I had a very similar child, who was in my care from 13months-26months he was always very clingy, crying all day long, which then progressed to smacking, hitting, biting, and pinching when he was 20months, it got to be we were asked to leave places. I constantly talked to mom and dad, wrote plans out for them, kept very detailed dairies of his day, when it came down to it, mom and dad just would not discipline him, they didn't want "to stifle his expressive side" (after I told them he smacked me in the face when I was changing another nappy) he didn't have a tv, no computer, no older relatives, he just was allowed to run wild at home, and so when in my care it was mayhem. I strongly advised nursery would be a better environment! If you don't have parental support, our job is exceptionally hard. You have two choices; if you seriously believe this is a safeguarding issue, then document and take further. If you believe it's just a case of parents unable to discipline, then I would give notice. There is nothing wrong with that x

[Keeley77]

To my mind the only way to deal with this and save your back if she does Complain to Ofsted is to have a face to face meeting with her as soon as possible. Believe me I have been their and saved myself by documenting and talking.

STOP emailing and texting.

Write a proper letter inviting her to a meeting asap to discuss the way forward and her requirements for December. Make sure you have someone else at the meeting with you.

HAND deliver it to her house at a time you think she may be home and if the lights are on knock on the door and hand it over but it then gives you a chance to say what she will see you have put in the letter. If she is not in at least you can say and know that she got the letter again take someone with you or tell someone you are going at least. This is all about protecting yourself and trying to solve the situation. You have to be completely professional about it and not emotional.

As for the behaviour of the child. You have to manage it and number one never leave her alone with other children. If you have to leave the room for whatever reason she goes with you, even if you go to the loo she sits outside with a book. She will soon get bored with this and it may cure the behaviour or at the very least hope to moderate it. It sounds as if she make be entertained 24/7 at home and expects attention all the time which you can't do but you need to keep her occupied. I would plan all her days with you through December in detail and when you meet with mum give her a copy, I would add ideas of how she could extend some of the activities at home. Get mum to sign for this so you can demonstrate that you are working with the parent and put a copy in the child's Learning Journal.

You have to remove yourself from the emotional reason to this child to a professional one.

It seems a shame for the sake of 3 Mondays to give up, loose the money and let the mum down.

You never know you may be able to turn it around and find this child is lovely and rewarding. In my experience (20 years) a three year old's behaviour is rarely a problem for long. They go through stages and this just naturally occur sometimes for no clear reason and they are affected by changes in the child's life. A 10 hour day is a long day especially as a one day a week. Has she always been with mum up to now? Maybe she resents coming away and finds the day very long. Does she have a sleep in the day? Maybe this would help?

I hope this doesn't sound harsh it is not meant to be. I hope the info helps.



Thanks for your comments.

Mum always says how much LO looks forward to coming to mine so I don't think its because she is resenting being left.

I've observed her behaviour and the general trigger seems to be her desire to have a toy that another child has - she will do whatever it takes to get it. Push, punch etc and now strangle another child.

She will also just push and hit for what seems to be entertainment value. ie for no clear reason, other than because she likes to see the other children's reaction - tears, screams etc. She is an only child.

The mum has said every week that she will set up reward chart plan for her but the following week she always says that she hasn't got around to doing it. Mum has also not told the truth to me about her behaviour - having told me that she always plays nicely everywhere else. If the parent can't admit that her child has behavioural issues that need to be dealt with firm guidance and consequences then I have no hope of seeing any improvement whilst she is in my setting.

I'm sure you are probably correct that it is just a phase that she is going through, however as she is only with me on a temporary basis and for one day a week, (until mum sorted permanent place at a nursery as I don't have a permanent place available), I think that it would be better for the child and the family, the other minded children in my setting and my own family for her to start in her nursery setting sooner rather than later. I don't think this is unreasonable.

[littlemiss60561]

Hi,
How upsetting to see your child being hurt. I can empathise as had a biter and it was always my ds. I felt guilty he was being bitten but justified it to myself that I was being professional by trying to support the family and had plans in place etc and that my ds could attend a nursery and be bitten . I had worked in a setting with biters before and had supported them, with full parental support and we had win the battle.i thought I could do the same again. a year later , I had to give notice.there were other reasons too, many in fact, but a big one was that my ds was being more and more regularly bruised and eaten! In his , what should be , a safe home environment. I regret not giving notice before to be completely honest as both parents were not on board .telling off with a big smile followed by a choc bar to eat isn't he way out etc erm no?! Have you seen my Los arm??! one wrote on a report that it was only here he did it now. And the other contradicted a few days later and said he'd bitten 3 children at a play center last week. In front of the other parent! I said how typical of children to change so radically the very minute you make a written statement about behaving.... Grrr I was cross but I think her face was a picture! Talk about sucking a wasp !
You need to do what's right for you and your setting.
I agree some can be quick to dismiss a child , and there should be alternatives tried first, but there is only so much you can take sometimes. Believe me I tried. I think with parents on board I'd have persevered more than likely. If mum isn't on board then it makes it so so much harder.
Have you spoken to the other nursery? I'm wondering if mums account of her behavior is different to theirs?!