At what age can older sibling collect younger ones?

[beckyteddy]

I had an enquiry from a Mum who would like after-school care for her son. She would like her older teenage son (aged 15) to collect his younger brother from me at 4pm. They would then walk to their Nans house and Mum would collect them both from there when she finishes work.

So, does anyone know what age an older sibling has to be, to collect another child from a childminder?

Thanks

[Mouse]

There isn't a legal age limit, although some settings (childminders, nurseries etc) do say they won't release a child to anyone under the age of 16.

How old is the younger child and how far do they have to walk? Does the 15yr old often look after the younger child?

I would stress to mum that once the child has left your care they become the responsibility of the parents.

[beckyteddy]

That's great advice, thank you.

Older bro often cares for younger bro (he's 6) at home. They are only walking a couple of streets away to get to Nan's house.

They have been refused by the after-school club at school, as their policy is only to release children to people who are 16yrs and over.

The younger boy is my sons friend so I know the family well, I just wanted to stay on the right side of the law!

Thanks for your response x

[clareelizabeth1]

If younger child was a baby I would be a bit unhappy but as they are 6 I would allow it.

[Simona]

The best way to cover yourself is to ask the parent to put her request in 'writing' and specify that she gives her older child authority to collect the younger one from you...ask both parents to sign the letter and Nan too who will be caring for the child after 4pm....you can countersign.

Record this in the child's notes and make sure you tick the time the child is collected from you each day as that would mean you are no longer responsible.

Having said that I would also approach someone in your EY team to seek advice or at a push even ring Ofsted.

Hope this helps you

[lilac_dragon]

I had this question last month.
lo is only 3 and I was asked to allow cousin aged 13 to collect on her way home from school. It would only have taken 30 mins of the usual parent collection time.
lo is hyper to say the least and I live on a really busy main road, I said No not until the cousin was 16 and the parent thought I was out of order.
Parent caught me at the end of a really bad day and after I'd just received some devastating family news, so I'm afraid I just said "That's my answer, and if you don't like it then please give me letter in the morning terminating the contract, as I don't want to feel responsible if there's an accident. Make sure you put in the letter the reason you're ending this".
I didn't say it in a nasty way, just really firmly, but I could see the parent was a bit taken aback.
She apologised the next day and child is still with me.
I still cringe when I think of what I said, but I stand by it.

[rickysmiths]

I do not allow under 18s to collect unless they are the child's parent.

There is no legal age however at 18 they are legally an adult and so I feel can take responsibility.

If a younger person collects and something goes wrong I would never forgive myself.

Sometimes having the written permission of the parent for something like this to happen is not enough. I would always check with your PLI company about your cover if something when wrong in such circumstances.

[QualityCare]

Interesting article might be worth printing and giving to parents.

Excerpt taken from “Please keep an eye on your younger sister”: sibling supervision and young children's risk of unintentional injury: Injury Prevention, August 2010.

It is known that when parents supervise their children it reduces the chance that a child will be injured. However, when older siblings supervise younger children there is an increased risk of injury.
The idea behind the research was to explore why the risk of injury to young children increased when they were supervised by older siblings. The researchers found that mothers were more likely to spot and remove hazards, whereas older siblings were more likely to interact with the hazards in front of the younger children (for example, an older child may make themselves a hot drink and put it within reach of a young child, whereas the mother would be more likely to keep hot drinks well away from toddlers).
It is well known that younger children tend to copy their older siblings - and indeed, this was found to be the case during the study. Children also behaved in a more risky manner when they were supervised by a sibling; however, their sibling babysitters were less attentive to that risk than their mothers would be. The problem was compounded by the fact that young children were less likely to listen to their siblings when asked to stop risk taking.
In conclusion, the researchers found that both the behaviour of the younger children and their supervisors contributed to the increase in injury risk when older siblings supervise younger ones.

[Simona]

None of us have the real answer but we must try to check what would be best practice and have no comeback

Will anyone call Ofsted to check on this matter?
if a parent insists on their older child collecting can we truly say no?
I am not sure on either ....but we are told parents know their child best...if that was to happen to me I would get the facts first, discuss with the parent and take it from there

[Koala]

I have a 15 year old son and would trust him to care for a younger sibling, however, I would not let a child under 18yrs collect a child in my care, This is purely for safeguarding reasons for everyone concerned including me.
Even if written authorization has been given from parents it is still the care providers responsibility to whom they release a child whether they be 8,18 or 80 if in any doubt of the ability of the person collecting the child being able to care for the child one should not release. It's tough but that's how it has to be. And if anything happened it would be the minders shoulders that the blame lie on.

Always safeguard yourself. :thumbsup:

[dawn100]

For me this is a bit like what age can a child be left home alone, I'm not sure legally there is a minimum age but who would be held responsible if there was an accident whilst the older sibling was in charge- you for letting the child leave with a minor or mum for saying it was ok? Not even sure ofsted would be able to answer this as it is a legal matter rather than ofsted rules.
You don't say how old the mindee is?
I personally always air on the side of caution when childminding as its not worth the risk.

[Simona]

I have a 15 year old son and would trust him to care for a younger sibling, however, I would not let a child under 18yrs collect a child in my care, This is purely for safeguarding reasons for everyone concerned including me.
Even if written authorization has been given from parents it is still the care providers responsibility to whom they release a child whether they be 8,18 or 80 if in any doubt of the ability of the person collecting the child being able to care for the child one should not release. It's tough but that's how it has to be. And if anything happened it would be the minders shoulders that the blame lie on.

Always safeguard yourself. :thumbsup:

Totally agree it is best to safeguard and that is the priority

We have to ensure those who collect children are named by the parents, recorded in our child's contract and we hand them over as agreed
If the parents trust their older sibling can we challenge that? maybe yes but we have to be sure that is in our remit

All I am saying we differ in opinion so better check for facts and how to best deal with this situation should it arise

[rickysmiths]

Totally agree it is best to safeguard and that is the priority

We have to ensure those who collect children are named by the parents, recorded in our child's contract and we hand them over as agreed
If the parents trust their older sibling can we challenge that? maybe yes but we have to be sure that is in our remit

All I am saying we differ in opinion so better check for facts and how to best deal with this situation should it arise

This is obviously best practice but not always the reality. If a parent asks me for example if Auntie Flo can collect on a certain day because she is staying and wants to spend some time with the child. I ask for a photo of AF if I haven't met her or if she could come over with the parent in the morning and just say hello, failing that I do have a password system so i will not release the child without being given the correct password. Not all collectors can always be listed on a Contract.

However I don't care if a parent trusts a older sibling, yes I have the absolute right to over rule that and refuse to release the child to them on Safeguarding Grounds and I have done this in the past and would in the future.

As I said before the only under 18 I would release a child to would be their parent who would have Parental Responsibility.

I don't think there is any point ringing Ofsted because all they will do is refer us to the Welfare Requirements and expect us to do what we feel is the correct thing in Safeguarding the child in our care.

I think more importantly I would ask your PLI Company who may be asked to pick up a tab if something did go wrong.

[Simona]

This is obviously best practice but not always the reality. If a parent asks me for example if Auntie Flo can collect on a certain day because she is staying and wants to spend some time with the child. I ask for a photo of AF if I haven't met her or if she could come over with the parent in the morning and just say hello, failing that I do have a password system so i will not release the child without being given the correct password. Not all collectors can always be listed on a Contract.

However I don't care if a parent trusts a older sibling, yes I have the absolute right to over rule that and refuse to release the child to them on Safeguarding Grounds and I have done this in the past and would in the future.

As I said before the only under 18 I would release a child to would be their parent who would have Parental Responsibility.

I don't think there is any point ringing Ofsted because all they will do is refer us to the Welfare Requirements and expect us to do what we feel is the correct thing in Safeguarding the child in our care.

I think more importantly I would ask your PLI Company who may be asked to pick up a tab if something did go wrong.

I see what your saying but am unclear why all the names of those 'authorised' to collect cannot be in the contract?
I have allowed for 6 names on mine but if someone else is given that authority then I just add them to the list after carrying out checks on who they are.

Why is it a waste of time ringing Ofsted? they are there to answer our queries but if Ofsted refer us to the EYFS then this is subject to our interpretation and possibly that of the inspector?
I have found written nowhere that we have the absolute right to refuse a parent's wish in such circumstances and it is obvious we have different opinions so if this happens to any cm it would be best for her to check personally.

[rickysmiths]

I see what your saying but am unclear why all the names of those 'authorised' to collect cannot be in the contract?
I have allowed for 6 names on mine but if someone else is given that authority then I just add them to the list after carrying out checks on who they are.

Why is it a waste of time ringing Ofsted? they are there to answer our queries but if Ofsted refer us to the EYFS then this is subject to our interpretation and possibly that of the inspector?
I have found written nowhere that we have the absolute right to refuse a parent's wish in such circumstances and it is obvious we have different opinions so if this happens to any cm it would be best for her to check personally.

Because sometimes family visit and it is so infrequent no one thinks to put it in the Contract?

Auntie only comes over from New Zealand once in a Blue Moon?

It doesn't really matter if they aren't in the Contract Simona as long as there correct procedures in place to cover collection. To be honest I only put the people who will be collecting on a day to day basis in a contract life is too short. :cool:

[beckyteddy]

Just to clarify: the younger sibling in question is 6yrs old (yr2).

My gut instinct is that the age of an older sibling (who parents have already trusted with this responsibility) has to be viewed in relation to their general attitude/reliability etc. similar to how we are told to view the ages and stages of younger children when looking at their development against the EYFS. Just as you might have a 3 yr old who is wonderful at sharing and has a very positive response to boundaries, I'm sure we've all cared for 3yr olds who are far below this level of development...isn't that the same for teenagers?

If there is no hard and fast legal "rule" then the actual age of the person who has been trusted to collect should be taken into consideration alongside their stage of development, they shouldn't just be ruled unsuitable because of their age alone.

I am going to call Ofsted just to double check though, and I'll post results back here ASAP.

[beckyteddy]

I've just spoken to Ofsted so I'll relay the main points below:

Ofsted said:

There is no legal age limit specified in the EYFS in relation to this issue.

The decision about whether the older child is responsible enough to collect would therefore be down to me and Mum.

He recommended that I have ask for written permission signed by Mum to clarify that she feels her 15yr old is a suitable person for the task and that he has her permission to collect.

He said I would be fully within my rights to ask for this permission and that this would then "cover me" if anything ever were to happen once I had handed the child over to his brother.

I feel quite at ease with this advice and I'm glad that for once Ofsted are allowing us to make our own judgement based on common sense.

After-all a very responsible 15yr old is far better than say a boy-racer 18yr old who might collect the child, not insist they wear seatbelt, drive a bit too fast etc. etc. but be legally allowed to collect purely based on their age!

FYI: I don't mean in any way to stereotype 18yr olds...I just was using the above scenario as an example of how "older" doesn't necessarily mean "safer".

[Simona]

Just to clarify: the younger sibling in question is 6yrs old (yr2).

My gut instinct is that the age of an older sibling (who parents have already trusted with this responsibility) has to be viewed in relation to their general attitude/reliability etc. similar to how we are told to view the ages and stages of younger children when looking at their development against the EYFS. Just as you might have a 3 yr old who is wonderful at sharing and has a very positive response to boundaries, I'm sure we've all cared for 3yr olds who are far below this level of development...isn't that the same for teenagers?

If there is no hard and fast legal "rule" then the actual age of the person who has been trusted to collect should be taken into consideration alongside their stage of development, they shouldn't just be ruled unsuitable because of their age alone.

I am going to call Ofsted just to double check though, and I'll post results back here ASAP.

Thank you...I was going to email someone at Ofsted but will wait for your call and your feedback...that would be very useful

Rickysmiths...I have no idea why putting the name of anyone, other than those already in the contract, would be such problem?

I had exactly the situation you mention...auntie comes to visit from New Zealand and in 5 minutes she was added to the list
Other examples are grandparents who come and stay...again 5 minutes and their names are added
If a cm has a different way to carry out procedures that is fine...I referred to the contract because that is the 'binding' agreement for me and where I can refer anything in my practice

I fail to understand what you mean by life is too short?...maybe your contract does not allow for many names to be added...mine does and I am very happy with that...I was sharing good practice and cms will decide what is best for them in the end.

[rickysmiths]

Thank you...I was going to email someone at Ofsted but will wait for your call and your feedback...that would be very useful

Rickysmiths...I have no idea why putting the name of anyone, other than those already in the contract, would be such problem?

I had exactly the situation you mention...auntie comes to visit from New Zealand and in 5 minutes she was added to the list
Other examples are grandparents who come and stay...again 5 minutes and their names are added
If a cm has a different way to carry out procedures that is fine...I referred to the contract because that is the 'binding' agreement for me and where I can refer anything in my practice

I fail to understand what you mean by life is too short?...maybe your contract does not allow for many names to be added...mine does and I am very happy with that...I was sharing good practice and cms will decide what is best for them in the end.

READ WHAT I SAID PLEASE and try not to be so patronizing, it really isn't pleasant. I am not saying at all that it is difficult to put names of those collecting a child on a contract. What I am saying is I think it is unnecessary to list every last person in the world that might only once pick up a child if they happen to come on holiday from new Zealand and be with the Family on a Friday which is little Fred's only day of the week with me. I have self duplicating Contracts and to add a name to the contract would mean the parents bringing their half to enable adding a name and that is for me not worth the trouble especially if I will never see that person again and I am happy with a name, a mobile contact, a photo and a password for a one off. I don't want to burden my parents with any extra, what I consider unnecessary paperwork. You do so that is your choice. If however it is someone other than the parents who will be regularly collecting then I do put their name and a contact number on the contract there is plenty of room to do this.

I too try to share 'Good Practice'. I have been a cm for many years and I generally work a 50 hour week every week working as a cm so I think I have a good deal of past and current work experience. Granted I don't have a Degree in Chiildcare but I am professionally highly qualified in my former professional career and I pride myself in all the professional training I do as a cm including spending a day last Sat in Birmingham doing just that and I am more than happy to share experiences and offer help. That is why I joined this Forum in the first place, not to be challenged, as it feels on every comment I make.

I am not trying to score points Simona, I try to keep things a little light hearted as I know we all work hard and sometimes you do seem to take things very seriously. Life is too short, was an attempt by me to lighten the situation a bit.

I think we have to agree to disagree. However it would be lovely if you could be a bit lighter sometimes please. This forum is supposed to be fun and relaxing as well as informative.

[rickysmiths]

I've just spoken to Ofsted so I'll relay the main points below:

Ofsted said:

There is no legal age limit specified in the EYFS in relation to this issue.

The decision about whether the older child is responsible enough to collect would therefore be down to me and Mum.

He recommended that I have ask for written permission signed by Mum to clarify that she feels her 15yr old is a suitable person for the task and that he has her permission to collect.

He said I would be fully within my rights to ask for this permission and that this would then "cover me" if anything ever were to happen once I had handed the child over to his brother.

I feel quite at ease with this advice and I'm glad that for once Ofsted are allowing us to make our own judgement based on common sense.

After-all a very responsible 15yr old is far better than say a boy-racer 18yr old who might collect the child, not insist they wear seatbelt, drive a bit too fast etc. etc. but be legally allowed to collect purely based on their age!

FYI: I don't mean in any way to stereotype 18yr olds...I just was using the above scenario as an example of how "older" doesn't necessarily mean "safer".

That is great to have that information but I would still advise you to call your Public Liability Insurance Company as they are the ones who you may expect to pick up the bill if something goes wrong and what they say may change your choices. Not always but often these kinds of permission are not worth the paper they are written on if the **** hits the fan so to speak and only your insurance company will be able to advise you on this, not Ofsted.

[Simona]

Beckyteddy...Thank you very much for that great feedback
On the basis of that I will just tweak my procedures and continue with the letter of permission to cover myself

Thanks again