unannounced ofsted viits

[lilac_dragon]

OK, I understand about Mrs O turning up unannounced and that we should all be up to speed with paperwork, house spotless, children all beaming happily as they do their adult initiated activity -

But -

How would you react if they turned up as you were just going on an outing - would you disappoint the children who were all excited about going?
Or what if you were going out to a Doctors appointment?

What if - like me- you had one who was a nervous wreck in front of new people to the extent that if the visit was planned you would have made sure that that child wasn't there rather than have them traumatised.

My paperwork is in a lockable filing cabinet in the upstairs office, and Yes I could go up and get it but it wouldn't be quick, and if I left something behind I would have to go back up again. Thus taking me away from the children.

Would you ask them to come back another time?

If I knew they were coming I'd get everything into a box ready for them - when the children weren't here, and when I knew we'd be home.

How do you feel about this?

[FussyElmo]

If Ofsted did turn up and you were going on a outing you would have to disappoint the children. You would probably have to cancel the doctors appointment or go and come straight back.

I suppose seeing at the inspector will be dbs'ed you are able to leave the children with them as you fetch what she needs.

[Simona]

OK, I understand about Mrs O turning up unannounced and that we should all be up to speed with paperwork, house spotless, children all beaming happily as they do their adult initiated activity -

But -

How would you react if they turned up as you were just going on an outing - would you disappoint the children who were all excited about going?
Or what if you were going out to a Doctors appointment?

What if - like me- you had one who was a nervous wreck in front of new people to the extent that if the visit was planned you would have made sure that that child wasn't there rather than have them traumatised.

My paperwork is in a lockable filing cabinet in the upstairs office, and Yes I could go up and get it but it wouldn't be quick, and if I left something behind I would have to go back up again. Thus taking me away from the children.

Would you ask them to come back another time?

If I knew they were coming I'd get everything into a box ready for them - when the children weren't here, and when I knew we'd be home.

How do you feel about this?

Unannounced visits are triggered by complaints and Ofsted will turn up with no notice
What you ask is very important...what do we do?

I hope this will be clarified at the meetings #OfstedBigConversation...(Ofsted have been invited to attend but so far no reply)
no one has the answer and, if it happened to me, I assume I would have to cancel my plans and allow the inspector to carry her inspection or visit
This would never happen to a nursery or preschool because they are always on the premises!!

Some plans maybe difficult to alter such as a visit to the GP, as for letting the children down maybe Ofsted should be the one explaining it to them?
what if a cm was about to go and do a school 'drop off' or 'pick up'?

I have no idea what an inspector would do if the cm decided to go out and tell the inspector to come back??

I will raise that question on the 13th when I attend the London meeting...thank you for bringing it up...very useful because what the sector is trying to do is get 'clarification' on this new wave of inspections

Reporting our 'experiences' is very important ...it is also questioning Ofsted on this unwelcome new practice.

If cms want to be heard and want representation we need to speak up and join the rest of the sector in this campaign

[Helen79]

I've been wondering where we stand on refusing to let an unannounced ofsted inspector in. Just because they have a badge doesn't prove that they are genuine.
I don't think I'd allow an unannounced inspector in as it's not in the best interests of the children to have their day disrupted at short notice and I'd ask them to come back another time when I could prepare the children for the visit and make sure we had enough activities to keep us busy if we had to stay home.
Not sure what the repercussions of doing that would be though.

Some days are really hectic with school runs, playgroup, fitting in meals and naps etc so I don't plan activities everyday as we're out most of the day so if ofsted came on one of those days and we had to stay in then I'd look like a rubbish childminder.

[FussyElmo]

I've been wondering where we stand on refusing to let an unannounced ofsted inspector in. Just because they have a badge doesn't prove that they are genuine.
I don't think I'd allow an unannounced inspector in as it's not in the best interests of the children to have their day disrupted at short notice and I'd ask them to come back another time when I could prepare the children for the visit and make sure we had enough activities to keep us busy if we had to stay home.
Not sure what the repercussions of doing that would be though.

Some days are really hectic with school runs, playgroup, fitting in meals and naps etc so I don't plan activities everyday as we're out most of the day so if ofsted came on one of those days and we had to stay in then I'd look like a rubbish childminder.

I don't think we can actually legally refuse Ofsted entrance to the house. We can ring and have their identity verified but not I think refuse them.
School runs would have to taken because they wouldn't expect you to abandon a child but they would be waiting for you when they got back.

There is nothing in any guidance that says we have to right to request time to prepare for the visit :(

[Simona]

I don't think we can actually legally refuse Ofsted entrance to the house. We can ring and have their identity verified but not I think refuse them.
School runs would have to taken because they wouldn't expect you to abandon a child but they would be waiting for you when they got back.

There is nothing in any guidance that says we have to right to request time to prepare for the visit :(

Because of the nature of cminding Ofsted are allowed to give a very short notice for inspections to avoid turning up when a cm is out
This is different...we are talking about an 'unannounced' visit.

I have raised this as a concern to be tackled at the meeting and will seek clarification on this.

Any worried cm should also raise this with their representing association...apart from PLA I am not aware of any attending the meetings...it would be great if they all did as they could then inform their members that they are on the ball and seeking clarification for them

[sing-low]

If this happened, I would not allow Mrs O in until I had confirmed with Ofsted. While I did this I would probably run round tidying(!). If going out to a playground or group, I'd at least attempt to get Mrs O to come too. My argument would be that I can fulfil the EYFS while I'm out or I shouldn't be going out. I would refuse to cancel a doctor's appointment. Completely unprofessional, not fair on the doctor or other patients. Again, Mrs O can come too or stay and look at my paperwork and I'll be back as soon as possible.

[TooEarlyForGin?]

I also understand that we should all be ready for an unannounced visit. But then I would be concerned what they are judging me on, for example, on days I have planned to go to playgroup/swimming/soft play, although I have toys available, I wouldn't have any "planned" activity out as I have planned to do something else, and could see they could mark us down.

I have always felt, from the introduction of the EYFS that childminders should have their own guidance, a conversation is currently on the facebook page about us not being nursery's but being expected to have all the same amenities, although there is only one of us, and we run a different type of business (much better IMO).

I really feel we should have our own set of standards so we are not confused with bigger settings, that offer something different.

[Simona]

I also understand that we should all be ready for an unannounced visit. But then I would be concerned what they are judging me on, for example, on days I have planned to go to playgroup/swimming/soft play, although I have toys available, I wouldn't have any "planned" activity out as I have planned to do something else, and could see they could mark us down.

I have always felt, from the introduction of the EYFS that childminders should have their own guidance, a conversation is currently on the facebook page about us not being nursery's but being expected to have all the same amenities, although there is only one of us, and we run a different type of business (much better IMO).

I really feel we should have our own set of standards so we are not confused with bigger settings, that offer something different.

This is what we are trying to achieve so that Ofsted adhere to the guidelines when inspecting/visiting cms...we are not nurseries you are correct but home based and, therefore, out and about in the community

If Ofsted have moved the goal posts then we need to get that in black and white to avoid worry and speculations

It is totally unacceptable that cms should fear that knock on the door...we are speaking up but we have to be positive in our engagement and present facts that Ofsted need to look at and reflect on their practice as much as we do.

[marie33]

I had an unannounced inspection and we were all strapped in the car when she showed up . I told her they would be upset and I wasn't getting them out suggested she came with us but she said she would come back in an hour although she didn't look happy . One child in particular would have created hell
I still got a good though :)

[Ripeberry]

That's awful if they can just turn up when they want, even if it's not a complaint. They can make snap judgments on what they see and it will stick with you for years. So that one morning when everything is a mess and the kids are having meltdowns, that's when they'll turn up! A group setting is very different from a family home. They can apply the same rules to us. What if your husband was still at home and was trying to get ready for work? Don't think my husband would be happy about official people coming into OUR home.

[Simona]

That's awful if they can just turn up when they want, even if it's not a complaint. They can make snap judgments on what they see and it will stick with you for years. So that one morning when everything is a mess and the kids are having meltdowns, that's when they'll turn up! A group setting is very different from a family home. They can apply the same rules to us. What if your husband was still at home and was trying to get ready for work? Don't think my husband would be happy about official people coming into OUR home.

No ...inspectors turn up 'unannounced' only when it is a complaint triggered inspection/visit...not for run of the mill inspections when normally they would ascertain the cm is working, not on holiday and at home so not to waste their money

That is the rule they need to abide to until it is changed and clearly in black and white.

There are many many many good inspectors as I know some cms can testify but...they all need to have a set of guidelines they follow

[lilac_dragon]

Unannounced visits are triggered by complaints and Ofsted will turn up with no notice
What you ask is very important...what do we do?

I hope this will be clarified at the meetings #OfstedBigConversation...(Ofsted have been invited to attend but so far no reply)
no one has the answer and, if it happened to me, I assume I would have to cancel my plans and allow the inspector to carry her inspection or visit
This would never happen to a nursery or preschool because they are always on the premises!!

Some plans maybe difficult to alter such as a visit to the GP, as for letting the children down maybe Ofsted should be the one explaining it to them?
what if a cm was about to go and do a school 'drop off' or 'pick up'?

I have no idea what an inspector would do if the cm decided to go out and tell the inspector to come back??

I will raise that question on the 13th when I attend the London meeting...thank you for bringing it up...very useful because what the sector is trying to do is get 'clarification' on this new wave of inspections

Reporting our 'experiences' is very important ...it is also questioning Ofsted on this unwelcome new practice.

If cms want to be heard and want representation we need to speak up and join the rest of the sector in this campaign

I'm Diabetic, and Drs appointments aren't easy to cancel and then rebook - especially when they need to check you regularly before adjusting or issuing medication. With my luck the stress of having to cancel my appointment with Mrs O hovering in the background would probably cause my sugar levels to become unstable - just picture Mrs O leaning over my prostrate body and having to call an Ambuance!! LOL. There goes my lic

[hectors house]

No ...inspectors turn up 'unannounced' only when it is a complaint triggered inspection/visit...not for run of the mill inspections when normally they would ascertain the cm is working, not on holiday and at home so not to waste their money

That is the rule they need to abide to until it is changed and clearly in black and white.

There are many many many good inspectors as I know some cms can testify but...they all need to have a set of guidelines they follow

You say they have to be triggered by a complaint - but what about the example Sarah gave last month where an inspector was just passing an Outstanding childminder and went in and did an inspection and because the learning journals had all gone home for parents to see them, the childminding got downgraded to Satisfactory (I think).

[freckleonear]

I've heard of inspectors doing unannounced visits simply because they happened to be in the area.

[FussyElmo]

No ...inspectors turn up 'unannounced' only when it is a complaint triggered inspection/visit...not for run of the mill inspections when normally they would ascertain the cm is working, not on holiday and at home so not to waste their money

That is the rule they need to abide to until it is changed and clearly in black and white.

There are many many many good inspectors as I know some cms can testify but...they all need to have a set of guidelines they follow

A the moment it doesn't seem to be like that Simona. Quite a few cms are getting unannounced inspections without complaints.

I also think there is no rule that they have to abide to. No where does it say they have to give us notice - most do because they don't want a wasted trip.

[Simona]

Ok...so what you are saying is that the guidelines that cms should receive an inspection when informed by phone by the inspector has been changed?
what if the cm does not have children on the day Ofsted makes an appearance? will she be downgraded when she could have turned up when children are on roll...is that what they come to see? how our children are progressing?

Ofsted do have a habit of changing things as they like or at least this is their new regime...considering the stress they have put on how much cms cost to inspect why waste a trip??

I also read about a cm who was given a week's notice because she would be on holiday so the inspector agreed to inspect on her return

What we are all saying is that the goal posts have been moved and we accept that?
that is what we are going to discuss...can we keep to guidelines..if not can we have it in black and white please!

I will raise it as a concern but I will not accept changes in rules without appropriate notification...fair is fair!
Unless, of course, June O'Sullivan is correct when she asks what is the agenda behind Ofsted recent change?

[vals]

I care for a child with Autism. He is hard work, the day can be very stressful with him, I can manage but just. There is no way he would cope with a stranger being here, he would be even worse than usual, I wouldn't be able to speak to the inspector or get any paperwork out for her. It wouldn't be fair on the child to let the inspector in, and the child has to come first. Having said that,if they were at the door I am not sure if I would be brave enough to say go away!

[lilac_dragon]

I care for a child with Autism. He is hard work, the day can be very stressful with him, I can manage but just. There is no way he would cope with a stranger being here, he would be even worse than usual, I wouldn't be able to speak to the inspector or get any paperwork out for her. It wouldn't be fair on the child to let the inspector in, and the child has to come first. Having said that,if they were at the door I am not sure if I would be brave enough to say go away!

This is exactly the problem I would have!!!
And why, if I knew the Inspector was coming, I would ask for a day that he's not here. If it's an unannounced visit he seriously would be traumatised.

[Simona]

I care for a child with Autism. He is hard work, the day can be very stressful with him, I can manage but just. There is no way he would cope with a stranger being here, he would be even worse than usual, I wouldn't be able to speak to the inspector or get any paperwork out for her. It wouldn't be fair on the child to let the inspector in, and the child has to come first. Having said that,if they were at the door I am not sure if I would be brave enough to say go away!

That is why the inspector should be warned so she can take steps...that could be done if you received a call or she read your SEF which I am sure would prepare her for that

Thank you for raising this point...I will add it to my list, having said that I better start one to take with me

[FussyElmo]

Ok...so what you are saying is that the guidelines that cms should receive an inspection when informed by phone by the inspector has been changed?
what if the cm does not have children on the day Ofsted makes an appearance? will she be downgraded when she could have turned up when children are on roll...is that what they come to see? how our children are progressing?

Ofsted do have a habit of changing things as they like or at least this is their new regime...considering the stress they have put on how much cms cost to inspect why waste a trip??

I also read about a cm who was given a week's notice because she would be on holiday so the inspector agreed to inspect on her return

What we are all saying is that the goal posts have been moved and we accept that?
that is what we are going to discuss...can we keep to guidelines..if not can we have it in black and white please!

I will raise it as a concern but I will not accept changes in rules without appropriate notification...fair is fair!
Unless, of course, June O'Sullivan is correct when she asks what is the agenda behind Ofsted recent change?

Was it ever actually a rule?

or something that the inspectors did to make sure that we will in due to the nature of our job:)

[Simona]

Yes and I heard it from a senior Ofsted manager...not just me but all those present in the room

In order not to waste a journey the inspector would ring but, she warned, we would not be given much notice or exact date because Ofsted are aware we go out for various reasons and one is school pick ups...this is for normal inspections.

We are missing the point here...either we want clarification or we can go on arguing and guessing what is right or wrong!
I don't know as I am not an expert but I am determined to get some answers either for myself or cms in general.

I am off to the meeting ...I can go with a list of concerns in addition to those sent by Sarah and try to get some answers but cannot take guesses with me.
If Ofsted have changed the rules then we want it in black and white...that is my view and I respect those who disagree.

Come to think of it we could always email Ofsted...anyone offering?

[Mouse]

Freelance Ofsted inspectors are expected to carry out a minimum of 48 inspections a year - one a week if they take 4 weeks holiday.

I wonder if these unannounced inspections are carried out by inspectors who are struggling to meet their target number of inspections?

Or are Prospects (or the other one whose name I can't remember) failing to phone childminders in advance, meaning the inspector turns up, not realising the cm hasn't been contacted?

Or is there just a complete breakdown in the whole process? We know Ofsted struggles to keep on top of their workload?

Or is it a plan to panic childminders into joining agencies where they'd have no inspections?


One local cm did have notice - 20 minutes! The inspector phoned, said "are you in? I'm on my way".

[Simona]

Freelance Ofsted inspectors are expected to carry out a minimum of 48 inspections a year - one a week if they take 4 weeks holiday.

I wonder if these unannounced inspections are carried out by inspectors who are struggling to meet their target number of inspections?

Or are Prospects (or the other one whose name I can't remember) failing to phone childminders in advance, meaning the inspector turns up, not realising the cm hasn't been contacted?

Or is there just a complete breakdown in the whole process? We know Ofsted struggles to keep on top of their workload?

Or is it a plan to panic childminders into joining agencies where they'd have no inspections?


One local cm did have notice - 20 minutes! The inspector phoned, said "are you in? I'm on my way".

Agency cms will be 'randomly' inspected so they too should get the same treatment

Come on girls...how many inspectors happen to pass by your house especially if you live in a rural area?
Every inspector I have had in the past 12 years has arrived here with her Sat Nav and travelled long distance...no one was ever just passing by!
Sorry I do not believe that..cynical I know!

Sarah...you say inspectors have a booklet...is there a publication we can look at?

I have emailed Ofsted...if I get an answer I will relay it to you

[caz3007]

It would be interesting to know what areas these unannounced inspections are in, is there a pattern to the geographic location

[WibbleWobble]

I wondered what happens if Ofsted turn up and you are at home but on holiday- ie no children around?

Wibble x

[blue bear]

I read somewhere (not official document just someone's opinion) that every childminder that has reported an accident or incident, or a complaint has been received and investigated since jan 2011,regardless of outcome, they will be given an unannounced inspection during this round of inspections.

Now Idont know if this is true or not.

[munch149]

I read somewhere (not official document just someone's opinion) that every childminder that has reported an accident or incident, or a complaint has been received and investigated since jan 2011,regardless of outcome, they will be given an unannounced inspection during this round of inspections.

Now Idont know if this is true or not.

Well that includes me then. Although I'm overdue mine anyway. Was due march. I would crap myself if ofsted turned up unexpected. Although I would probably still do ok the fact that I felt so unprepared would certainly put the pressure on. Even when I had my complaint made ofsted gave me a little notice to come out and see me.

[Simona]

I wondered what happens if Ofsted turn up and you are at home but on holiday- ie no children around?

Wibble x

Exactly what I asked Ofsted...we are speculating a lot and end up getting more and more worried and stressed

My advice, for what is worth is, be ready for an inspection, have your paperwork in place and let her in!
what else can we do??

[lizduncan72]

In Scotland we can get unannounced inspections at any time, if we're lucky they phone the day before to make sure we'll be working but a lot of the time they just turn up! My last one the inspector arrived unannounced 5 minutes after I left for toddler group and got my husband who was running late for work!! The inspector phoned me later in the day to find out which days were best to come but wouldn't tell me when he was going to come back.

[Simona]

In Scotland we can get unannounced inspections at any time, if we're lucky they phone the day before to make sure we'll be working but a lot of the time they just turn up! My last one the inspector arrived unannounced 5 minutes after I left for toddler group and got my husband who was running late for work!! The inspector phoned me later in the day to find out which days were best to come but wouldn't tell me when he was going to come back.

That is a fine example of money wasting by the inspector...they are free lance but who pays them?
Good he contacted you again and also not telling you which day....that is ok but not to be left weeks on end waiting.

I would challenge this practice as restricting cms in offering the opportunities for children to be taken out and which we agree with the parents
We are NOT nurseries and, therefore, not expected to be within 4 walls 10 hrs a day!!

[sarah707]

We don't know why they are doing it - and conspiracy theories abound - but a lot of cms are getting unannounced inspections at the moment.

If Ofsted turn up and you are not working they would normally accept that and come back BUT it doesn't always work that way. We do have a comment on the FB group from a cm who was downgraded to satisfactory because she didn't have children present and the inspector refused to come back to watch her with the children.

If they turn up and you are going out they will expect you to cancel your outing. Again, we have a story on the FB group of an inspector who did exactly this and the cm had to deal with 3 unsettled and crying children through her inspection.

If you have a doctor's appointment I would say show proof and argue it - but it will depend on the inspector.

Of course if it's an inspection following a complaint then that's slightly more difficult because they have a legal right of entry so I wouldn't think your argument would be welcome - but again, there aren't any rules that I am aware of so you'd have to see what the inspector says at the time.

From Ofsted's point of view they will ask - what have you got to hide? Why aren't I allowed in? They will expect to see high quality care and education on any day, at any time and will inspect for that regardless of the notice period given before the inspection.

It's a very trying time at the moment for a lot of cms. I think it's great that you are taking this to Ofsted Simona! The Forum and FB letter was sent to PLA today as well :clapping: I will upload the finished version later! :D

[Simona]

I have just received a reply from Ofsted regarding notice for scheduled inspections and unannounced ones

Here it is
''Dear Simona

For scheduled inspections, childminders will receive a call beforehand as they always have done. Where we are bringing forward an inspection as a result of a concern, these are usually carried out unannounced.'' (end)

and this is my reply

'' This a most welcome message.. unfortunately many cms are being inspected without any warning whatsoever when it relates to a scheduled cycle inspection...they report the inspector just turns up on the day and it is causing huge worries as they are concerned about being out on outings or school runs

You may hear about this more...not sure what they can do but it has reassured me.

Regards

Simona'' (end)

If we still get concerns cms have to report them and we can report them.

[Mouse]

I have just received a reply from Ofsted regarding notice for scheduled inspections and unannounced ones

Here it is
''Dear Simona

For scheduled inspections, childminders will receive a call beforehand as they always have done. Where we are bringing forward an inspection as a result of a concern, these are usually carried out unannounced.'' (end)

and this is my reply

'' This a most welcome message.. unfortunately many cms are being inspected without any warning whatsoever when it relates to a scheduled cycle inspection...they report the inspector just turns up on the day and it is causing huge worries as they are concerned about being out on outings or school runs

You may hear about this more...not sure what they can do but it has reassured me.

Regards

Simona'' (end)

If we still get concerns cms have to report them and we can report them.


It does make you wonder whether Ofsted even know inspectors are turning up unannounced.

I have to be honest, since there have been talks of unannounced inspections I have really got on top of my paperwork & I'm staying on top of it. It has always been OK, but not as good as it would be if I knew the inspector was coming :blush: I'm confident I'd be OK if an inspector called. Maybe not outstanding, but definitely OK!

That still doesn't stop me checking the peephole to see who's at the door before I answer it :laughing:

[sarah707]

That still doesn't stop me checking the peephole to see who's at the door before I answer it :laughing:



I usually have a couple of children behind me shouting 'Sarah DOOR!!!!' ... no way could I pretend I hadn't heard it :laughing:

[Mouse]

I usually have a couple of children behind me shouting 'Sarah DOOR!!!!' ... no way could I pretend I hadn't heard it :laughing:

Ha ha! I shut the playroom gate whenever I go to the door, so no one would be able to hear them :D

[Simona]

It does make you wonder whether Ofsted even know inspectors are turning up unannounced.

I have to be honest, since there have been talks of unannounced inspections I have really got on top of my paperwork & I'm staying on top of it. It has always been OK, but not as good as it would be if I knew the inspector was coming :blush: I'm confident I'd be OK if an inspector called. Maybe not outstanding, but definitely OK!

That still doesn't stop me checking the peephole to see who's at the door before I answer it :laughing:

Very good point...does Ofsted know what the inspectors are up to? driving around country lanes and then popping in because they are in the area??
If turning up unannounced for a cycle inspection is not current practice Oftsed now know it is happening because that is what I put in the email.

Sarah..and if the face in the peephole is a stranger... you don't open it!!

[BlondeMoment]

What????!!!!!!
I had no idea they could turn up unannounced!
I don't actually open the door when I'm working unless I know who is there. Far too many incidents where I've been cornered by sales people, religious enthusiasts or god forbid...the in laws just popping in as they were passing.

[FussyElmo]

And yet I have just read of 2 cms on a fb group who have had unannounced visits.

[hectors house]

I have just replied to a post about Bluelion having a bad neck today and also on that thread stapleton said she had an accident yesterday and has black eyes and stitches in her head - but both of them are still working today - I don't expect either of them will be working at quite their usual 100% efficiency or enthusiasum but in the parents eyes they are absolute stars for carrying on and not letting them down - however would they get any brownie points today if Ofsted turned up for unannounced visit or would they get downgraded?

We all carry on regardless - not letting the parent down is our mantra - I have only had one sick day off in 8 years - but there have been countless days when if I had worked in a "proper" job I would have phoned in sick.

[Greengrass74]

Please don't shoot me down, but I think that unannounced visits are a good thing.

As professional people we should all be working within the guidelines set by Ofsted and so should be able to produce whatever they need if they visit.

Maybe if there were more unannounced visits then OFsted would be able to deal with the poor childminders that people always seem to be moaning about on here and other forums/Facebook.

I know it is a bit scary to think of Ofsted just turning up unannounced but if we are doing what we should then there should be no problem. In fact I am very proud of the way I work and my business and love showing others. Let them visit us unannounced and see how well we really work and how well we plan our days and like I said no one should have any issue with this if we are all doing what we have trained for and learnt.

[TooEarlyForGin?]

Please don't shoot me down, but I think that unannounced visits are a good thing.

As professional people we should all be working within the guidelines set by Ofsted and so should be able to produce whatever they need if they visit.

Maybe if there were more unannounced visits then OFsted would be able to deal with the poor childminders that people always seem to be moaning about on here and other forums/Facebook.

I know it is a bit scary to think of Ofsted just turning up unannounced but if we are doing what we should then there should be no problem. In fact I am very proud of the way I work and my business and love showing others. Let them visit us unannounced and see how well we really work and how well we plan our days and like I said no one should have any issue with this if we are all doing what we have trained for and learnt.

I agree, but the way OFSTED are at the moment they aren't acting impartially and seem to be out to "catch us out". Minders that are very busy doing the fantastic job of caring for kids are getting downgraded for things like not having learning journeys on the premises, or just not having children there on that day, how does these things give a true idea how a person is operating. I am in the middle of getting policies re-done and signed, updating emergency contact forms, I have signed up 3 new parents and am in the middle of settling, getting routines in place, so although I know I am brilliant ;-) at the moment I could end up with a lower grading. Unless they start to accept we are 1 person doing a hard job and sometimes things can be a bit difficult, we will worry.

I also have Mondays free to do paperwork, and as my children are grown up, I clear all equipment away on a Friday and don't get them out again until Tuesday. It would be disgusting if I was given a low grade because of this. Which is why we deserve a different set of standards to nurseries.

[lilac_dragon]

I have just replied to a post about Bluelion having a bad neck today and also on that thread stapleton said she had an accident yesterday and has black eyes and stitches in her head - but both of them are still working today - I don't expect either of them will be working at quite their usual 100% efficiency or enthusiasum but in the parents eyes they are absolute stars for carrying on and not letting them down - however would they get any brownie points today if Ofsted turned up for unannounced visit or would they get downgraded?

We all carry on regardless - not letting the parent down is our mantra - I have only had one sick day off in 8 years - but there have been countless days when if I had worked in a "proper" job I would have phoned in sick.

They'd probably be down graded - but as you say, we don't like letting people down.
If we have a day off for any reason, especially illness which is therefore short notice, it can affect several people who can't go into work as they have no childcare. Where I live, there aren't any other "local" childminders to just pass the los on to.
We might have to work at a lower level for a day or even two, but we're committed to our families. The children won't suffer if they have an occasional free play day but Ofsted won't look at it like that.

[lilac_dragon]

I agree, but the way OFSTED are at the moment they aren't acting impartially and seem to be out to "catch us out". Minders that are very busy doing the fantastic job of caring for kids are getting downgraded for things like not having learning journeys on the premises, or just not having children there on that day, how does these things give a true idea how a person is operating. I am in the middle of getting policies re-done and signed, updating emergency contact forms, I have signed up 3 new parents and am in the middle of settling, getting routines in place, so although I know I am brilliant ;-) at the moment I could end up with a lower grading. Unless they start to accept we are 1 person doing a hard job and sometimes things can be a bit difficult, we will worry.

I also have Mondays free to do paperwork, and as my children are grown up, I clear all equipment away on a Friday and don't get them out again until Tuesday. It would be disgusting if I was given a low grade because of this. Which is why we deserve a different set of standards to nurseries.

I totally agree with this.
And Greengrass, you're right in some ways, BUT I started this post to highlight some of the circumstances that might be happening just when an unannounced visit happened.
If I had booked and paid for tickets to take the los out for the day then not only would the los be devastated but so would I, and I'd also be out of pocket, if Mrs O said we couldn't go. If the los were really upset, which they would be, then I'm going to HAVE to concentrate on them - not her.
If I'd got a Doctors appointment - which is not easy to re-schedule, and affects the Drs and other patients if I don't attend - then I could be risking my health. After all, I wouldn't have booked an appointment to just go and chat about the weather!
If Mrs O came on a day that the los were in Nursery - but I'm being paid to take, pick up and be responsible for them if there's a problem, then should it be MY fault that the children aren't in the house?
The child I have with Autism, is the only one on a particular day so that he has one to one with me. He doesn't do strangers, and we have made a big step forward with his behaviour. If Mrs. O came on that day, I would have to ask her to wait outside, ring his Dad to come and collect him, and then there'd be no children in the house for Mrs. O. Would I be downgraded? Probably, but he - and the hard work I've put in with him - would be safe. If I WAS downgraded for this, I would contact the national newspapers with my story.

When Social Services used to inspect us, it was ALWAYS unannounced, and was yearly. Often, our local SS Childcare Manager would pop in a couple of times a year, sometimes it was only a month or so apart. It was in the days when the most paperwork we used to do was a Register, First Aid Book and contracts so the paperwork was minimal. She would check the house was safe, clean and tidy, write down what the children were doing and what resources were available have a coffee and a chat, give feedback and suggestions and then go. It was always the same person, so there was continuity. If you phoned her with a query, she would get back to you in a couple of hours max if she wasn't available immediately. She dropped into our weekly Childminder meetings to make sure all was well. She was great. We all knew her and knew that we could go to her with anything. I treasure the Inspection Reports she used to write - she made me feel valued.

Unannounced visits aren't necessarily bad - as long as Mrs O can accept that sometimes it would have been better for it to have been arranged. Not because we're sat watching tv in our pyjamas while the los swing from the chandelier, not because we're hiding something, but because there might be legitimate circumstances where a days notice would have been better for EVERYONE.

[loocyloo]

I have Mondays off, and use a couple of hours each Monday to do the weeks planning, update LJs, sort resources etc.

I do do obs/take photos during the week but nothing is put in until the Monday. if I had an un-announced mine would not be completely up to date and like other posters have said ... start of term/settling new starters in, sorting through/updating paperwork. at the moment I am all over the place! the care & education of the children is still the same, but the stuff around the edges is ragged!

[Greengrass74]

It seems that from what some are saying is that unannounced visits would not be a problem if there was some flexibility from the inspectors, such as if we are going out then they must not stop this or if we have an appointment then we should not cancel.
I agree that there needs to be some understanding from inspectors which should also apply to paperwork. They need to understand that we may not be upto date with everything but as long as we can proof we are doing the most important paperwork then we should no be penalised.

I still agree with unannounced visits but maybe Ofsted need to change the way they work when it comes to just turning up for an inspection. After all you would not expect a food inspector to give a time and date that they are going to inspect a food preparation company.

Maybe the answer is to phone us on a Monday and say that they will be visiting us some time during that week.

[TooEarlyForGin?]

When Social Services used to inspect us, it was ALWAYS unannounced, and was yearly. Often, our local SS Childcare Manager would pop in a couple of times a year, sometimes it was only a month or so apart. It was in the days when the most paperwork we used to do was a Register, First Aid Book and contracts so the paperwork was minimal. She would check the house was safe, clean and tidy, write down what the children were doing and what resources were available have a coffee and a chat, give feedback and suggestions and then go. It was always the same person, so there was continuity. If you phoned her with a query, she would get back to you in a couple of hours max if she wasn't available immediately. She dropped into our weekly Childminder meetings to make sure all was well. She was great. We all knew her and knew that we could go to her with anything. I treasure the Inspection Reports she used to write - she made me feel valued.

Unannounced visits aren't necessarily bad - as long as Mrs O can accept that sometimes it would have been better for it to have been arranged. Not because we're sat watching tv in our pyjamas while the los swing from the chandelier, not because we're hiding something, but because there might be legitimate circumstances where a days notice would have been better for EVERYONE.

I have said I would rather have short regular checks than a massive build up ever 4-5 years. Since becoming accredited my LA visited me twice a year, the same lady who grew to know me and my practice. Similar to you with social services, she was great, always at hand with useful advice and help. Of course she has now gone with all these stupid reforms. So now it's back to a faceless person with a jobsworth hat and clipboard.

[TooEarlyForGin?]

It seems that from what some are saying is that unannounced visits would not be a problem if there was some flexibility from the inspectors, such as if we are going out then they must not stop this or if we have an appointment then we should not cancel.
I agree that there needs to be some understanding from inspectors which should also apply to paperwork. They need to understand that we may not be upto date with everything but as long as we can proof we are doing the most important paperwork then we should no be penalised.

I still agree with unannounced visits but maybe Ofsted need to change the way they work when it comes to just turning up for an inspection. After all you would not expect a food inspector to give a time and date that they are going to inspect a food preparation company.

Maybe the answer is to phone us on a Monday and say that they will be visiting us some time during that week.

Exactly, but OFSTED isn't behaving like a good little one. Generally I have been called either on a Friday or Monday to find out what I am doing so have never been given long periods of time, but enough to prepare the children and get paperwork out ready.

[maisiemog]

At the moment I only do school age care and if ofsted turned up unannounced then they would definitely be downgrading me!

I'm using my day time to sort and decorate! At the moment I'm covered in paint because I'm painting the downstairs bathroom cos I know if i put a coat on now it would be dry by after school time!

My paperwork is in place but my house certainly isnt! I've not washed up this morning. I've got piles of clothes everywhere as I'm also getting washing done! Plus I've worked full time all holiday, except while I was away and my house has got more and more cluttered as the weeks have gone by! Ofsted would by see it in a positive light but by 3pm when I need to have it clean tidy and safe it will be! (Even if I only get it that way by hiding things in rooms not used for minding!)

I'm all for unannounced inspections where there is a concern but I don't think we should be downgraded for having a less than perfect day or have our plans disrupted when its a routine inspection!

[Simona]

Despite the email from Ofsted received yesterday we still appear to be speculating and there is still too much confusion

The reply I received from Ofsted came from a senior manager not the helpline!

Unannounced visits can only be carried out in response to a complaint...in this case we must allow the inspector access as she will have legal rights to enrty ...if you are concerned about her identity you can ask her to wait until you have rang Ofsted and clarified even though the inspector will carry a badge
If we did this more often Ofsted would wake up to the problem.
An inspector who rings a cm will give her name which you can then verify on her badge.

Regular inspections require the inspector to ring the cm first to ensure she is working, not on holiday, has children on roll. It does not mean she will make a definite appointment.
If inspectors are turning up unannounced for a cycle inspection please let Ofsted know...only then they can act to stop the practice

A wasted journey to a cm setting is a lot of money wasted Ofsted should account for.
Cms do not have special dispensation ...this is in place because we go out and about in the community and do school pick ups and do not operate within 4 walls.

As you are aware these concerns are being taken to Ofsted via the #OfstedBigConversation meetings...7 of them in total well scattered around England
Please attend or at least send your worries via someone who is going and can flag them up for you!

[Mouse]

Despite the email from Ofsted received yesterday we still appear to be speculating and there is still too much confusion

The reply I received from Ofsted came from a senior manager not the helpline!

Unannounced visits can only be carried out in response to a complaint...in this case we must allow the inspector access as she will have legal rights to enrty ...if you are concerned about her identity you can ask her to wait until you have rang Ofsted and clarified even though the inspector will carry a badge
If we did this more often Ofsted would wake up to the problem.
An inspector who rings a cm will give her name which you can then verify on her badge.

Regular inspections require the inspector to ring the cm first to ensure she is working, not on holiday, has children on roll. It does not mean she will make a definite appointment.
If inspectors are turning up unannounced for a cycle inspection please let Ofsted know...only then they can act to stop the practice

A wasted journey to a cm setting is a lot of money wasted Ofsted should account for.
Cms do not have special dispensation ...this is in place because we go out and about in the community and do school pick ups and do not operate within 4 walls.

As you are aware these concerns are being taken to Ofsted via the #OfstedBigConversation meetings...7 of them in total well scattered around England
Please attend or at least send your worries via someone who is going and can flag them up for you!

The reply may have come from a senior manager, but they clearly don't know what is happening. It's not just a one off occurrence. Childminders are regularly reporting that they've had unannounced inspections, without any prior phone call from Ofsted, the inspection company, or the inspector.

I don't think any of us have a problem with an inspector turning up without a definite appointment, but they do need to phone to check when we'll be in, when we'll have early years children, any days we don't work etc. I hope your senior manager friend will take note of your email and start looking into what's really going on. It's not enough for them to say unannounced visits only happen in response to a complaint. They need to be finding out why it's happening.

[FussyElmo]

The reply may have come from a senior manager, but they clearly don't know what is happening. It's not just a one off occurrence. Childminders are regularly reporting that they've had unannounced inspections, without any prior phone call from Ofsted, the inspection company, or the inspector.

I don't think any of us have a problem with an inspector turning up without a definite appointment, but they do need to phone to check when we'll be in, when we'll have early years children, any days we don't work etc. I hope your senior manager friend will take note of your email and start looking into what's really going on. It's not enough for them to say unannounced visits only happen in response to a complaint. They need to be finding out why it's happening.

I agree Mouse this is not speculation. Childminders are having unannounced visits for routine inspections. Your senior can say whatever in an email Im sure that is little comfort to the minders that have had an inspector on their door wanting to do an inspection.

I think regardless of this email everyone needs to work like they can turn up tomorrow :)

[Greengrass74]

I think regardless of this email everyone needs to work like they can turn up tomorrow :)

I totally agree with this.

[rickysmiths]

To be honest if an Inspector knocked on my door unannounced and said it was for a normal inspection not one as a result of a complaint I would shut the door and ring their Company and ask for them to contact the inspector and ask them to leave because no pre contact had been made and I am on my way out and have no intention of changing that. I would then collect the children together and go out even if I hadn't been planning it and leave the Inspector to discuss the matter with her bosses.

Later on I would ring and email a Complaint to both Ofsted and the Inspection Company.

It is yet another case of we must know how we must be treated and stand up for ourselves and take no nonsense. These Inspectors are just doing a job like us but it is not out fault that they may have been trained badly or just be bad at their job. We must stop treating them like the Gods that know it all and to whom we must bow. That is not the case.

[Simona]

The reply may have come from a senior manager, but they clearly don't know what is happening. It's not just a one off occurrence. Childminders are regularly reporting that they've had unannounced inspections, without any prior phone call from Ofsted, the inspection company, or the inspector.

I don't think any of us have a problem with an inspector turning up without a definite appointment, but they do need to phone to check when we'll be in, when we'll have early years children, any days we don't work etc. I hope your senior manager friend will take note of your email and start looking into what's really going on. It's not enough for them to say unannounced visits only happen in response to a complaint. They need to be finding out why it's happening.

Yes inspectors are doing something that is technically not allowed...however... no one reported it before
It has now been reported but unless cms are willing to act on this it will go on...the action of getting clarification has not made any positive contribution here it seems.

If this does go on the next email recipient will the Head of Ofsted...Sue Gregory...I have written to her several times and she has always responded.
It is her remit to ensure Ofsted 'enforces' the rules both for providers and inspectors they employ.

Inspectors should ring first ..if they are not doing so or need to do so then we want it in black and white

Rickysmiths...that is exactly what I would do
We need to make Ofsted aware what is going on and like you I would make that call or send an email.

These inspectors are 'freelance' but I think they still have guidelines to follow and not invent their own.

Fussy Elmo...yes you can disregard the email if you choose to do so and be prepared for an unannounced inspection anytime...
I think this is exactly what we have established because complaints can come at any time and some are backdated

On a professional level, I feel cms and all providers should be ready for an inspection any time and not just rush to put their house in order when an inspection is due...harsh but true!
Many will disagree but that is my view

Sorry I bothered to get something clarified for the benefit of cms...I will think twice next time.

[Mouse]

Sorry if I offended you Simona. I, for one, am very pleased that you emailed for clarification. It is very useful to know what the higher up bods 'think' is happening, although we know the reality can be very different. My point was that even though a senior manager has confirmed inspectors should be contacting us first, we know that in reality that isn't happening. An email from a senior manager isn't going to make any difference unless it's aced upon by them and any childminders who find themselves in this position.

I am like you & Rickysmiths. I would have the confidence to question the inspector and leave them waiting on my doorstep, if need be. I wouldn't really have any objection to an unannounced inspection most days, but if I'm not working I really would object to being inspected with no children present. Like many others, I would also appreciate some notification when I have certain children, who need a bit of extra support around strangers. We don't have any visitors on those days, never mind unexpected ones!

Also, like you, I feel we should be ready for an inspection at any time. I have heard of cms having several month's notice of inspections. They pull out all the stops, work hard to get up to date...then let it all go to pot when the inspection is over. I don't see anything wrong with a phone call saying they're coming the next day. It just gives you time to get everything together, but not long enough to completely make everything up!

[Simona]

Sorry if I offended you Simona. I, for one, am very pleased that you emailed for clarification. It is very useful to know what the higher up bods 'think' is happening, although we know the reality can be very different. My point was that even though a senior manager has confirmed inspectors should be contacting us first, we know that in reality that isn't happening. An email from a senior manager isn't going to make any difference unless it's aced upon by them and any childminders who find themselves in this position.

I am like you & Rickysmiths. I would have the confidence to question the inspector and leave them waiting on my doorstep, if need be. I wouldn't really have any objection to an unannounced inspection most days, but if I'm not working I really would object to being inspected with no children present. Like many others, I would also appreciate some notification when I have certain children, who need a bit of extra support around strangers. We don't have any visitors on those days, never mind unexpected ones!

Also, like you, I feel we should be ready for an inspection at any time. I have heard of cms having several month's notice of inspections. They pull out all the stops, work hard to get up to date...then let it all go to pot when the inspection is over. I don't see anything wrong with a phone call saying they're coming the next day. It just gives you time to get everything together, but not long enough to completely make everything up!

Mouse...I am not in the least offended

The manager who replied is in charge of Enforcement...anyone can write to her and back my email with their concerns
Unfortunately I have no proof, only feedback, that inspectors are turning up without notice and that is what I have reported.

What I intend to do is raise it at #OfstedBigConverstaion as an action for Ofsted to look into because feedback from the meetings will be sent to Ofsted I am sure...unless they attend in person.
In fact feedback to the meetings will be available to all providers

How to complain about Ofsted can be found here
Ofsted | Complaints procedure: raising concerns and making complaints about Ofsted (http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/complaints-procedure-raising-concerns-and-making-complaints-about-ofsted)

We have made the 1st step by making Ofsted aware what inspectors are doing to cms...we do not stop here

[TooEarlyForGin?]

To be honest if an Inspector knocked on my door unannounced and said it was for a normal inspection not one as a result of a complaint I would shut the door and ring their Company and ask for them to contact the inspector and ask them to leave because no pre contact had been made and I am on my way out and have no intention of changing that. I would then collect the children together and go out even if I hadn't been planning it and leave the Inspector to discuss the matter with her bosses.

Later on I would ring and email a Complaint to both Ofsted and the Inspection Company.

It is yet another case of we must know how we must be treated and stand up for ourselves and take no nonsense. These Inspectors are just doing a job like us but it is not out fault that they may have been trained badly or just be bad at their job. We must stop treating them like the Gods that know it all and to whom we must bow. That is not the case.

Here here...

[Simona]

Well said Rickysmiths...respect is a two way system
If they do not respect us they will lose ours
ACCOUNTABILITY is what we want from Ofsted and their master the DfE.

[handeme]

To be honest if an Inspector knocked on my door unannounced and said it was for a normal inspection not one as a result of a complaint I would shut the door and ring their Company and ask for them to contact the inspector and ask them to leave because no pre contact had been made and I am on my way out and have no intention of changing that. I would then collect the children together and go out even if I hadn't been planning it and leave the Inspector to discuss the matter with her bosses.

Later on I would ring and email a Complaint to both Ofsted and the Inspection Company.

It is yet another case of we must know how we must be treated and stand up for ourselves and take no nonsense. These Inspectors are just doing a job like us but it is not out fault that they may have been trained badly or just be bad at their job. We must stop treating them like the Gods that know it all and to whom we must bow. That is not the case.

I fully agree with Rickysmiths.

We are here to provide care for the children. This care has been planned with all needs met. Should an inspector turn up and it was for a routine inspection that was not pre arranged they would be asked to leave. I have planned my day for the children, whether that be an outing or a day at home. Allowances would have been made in my planning/day with the inspector here.

I am more than happy for them to call me in advance, as a parent I would also want to be made aware of the inspector in the setting with my child.

When I kno

[Mouse]

You also have to consider that if a school or nursery is given an unannounced inspection, they often last for at least a couple of days, a whole day minimum. That gives parents plenty of time to give their views.

If an inspector called on a cm, there's a chance they won't see any parents & the cm won't have had chance to get any parents' comments. Even if a cm is only given 24hrs notice it's long enough to get some parents' views in writing.

[hectors house]

I think whether planned or unplanned Ofsted inspectors should come out with us to see how we are with the children out of the house - they should see how we deal with multiple little ones and keep them safe using reins or buggies or strict rules about running off, they should see how we get children in and out of car seats and how we teach the children to shout if we forget to put on seatbelt, some of my best conversations happen with children in the car - we chat and play games. They should see how we keep an eye on children at parks and toddler groups - in many cases supervising far closer than other parents who attend do with their own children.

My paperwork is behind at the moment so wouldn't like an inspection planned or unplanned but I think the inspectors should come for a whole day from when parents drop off to when they collect so they can fully see what it is like to be a child in my setting - where I welcome them and their families into my life - not just my home! I don't see how they can make a full judgement in just a couple of hours when they seem to have their mind up before they step through the door.

[Simona]

You also have to consider that if a school or nursery is given an unannounced inspection, they often last for at least a couple of days, a whole day minimum. That gives parents plenty of time to give their views.

If an inspector called on a cm, there's a chance they won't see any parents & the cm won't have had chance to get any parents' comments. Even if a cm is only given 24hrs notice it's long enough to get some parents' views in writing.

Thank you for raising this issue...

First, of course parents' views are important so in fact Ofsted are depriving parents of the right to input their views in an inspection or even be there to meet the inspector.
Am I right in saying that Ofsted 'requires' cms to inform parents of an imminent inspection? if so Ofsted appear to be breaking their own rules

Second a cm will have time to recall any LJ that have gone out and not be downgraded because no evidence can be produced.

I have added this to the list for the meeting

[FussyElmo]

Please in no way take this next comment as causing an argument or disagreeing with anything that has been said.

But can we actually legally refuse Ofsted entry to the house if they turned up at the door once we had confirmed identity.

I only ask because I would hate for a cm to read that we could and if faced with Ofsted at the door refused entry and got into serious trouble for it :(

[TooEarlyForGin?]

I think whether planned or unplanned Ofsted inspectors should come out with us to see how we are with the children out of the house - they should see how we deal with multiple little ones and keep them safe using reins or buggies or strict rules about running off, they should see how we get children in and out of car seats and how we teach the children to shout if we forget to put on seatbelt, some of my best conversations happen with children in the car - we chat and play games. They should see how we keep an eye on children at parks and toddler groups - in many cases supervising far closer than other parents who attend do with their own children.

My paperwork is behind at the moment so wouldn't like an inspection planned or unplanned but I think the inspectors should come for a whole day from when parents drop off to when they collect so they can fully see what it is like to be a child in my setting - where I welcome them and their families into my life - not just my home! I don't see how they can make a full judgement in just a couple of hours when they seem to have their mind up before they step through the door.

Absolutely, again this is why childminders need their own standards and inspectors need to be trained to understand what we actually do, instead of marking people down for silly things, like one minder who was told that she wasn't giving enough attention to a 3 yo whilst bottle feeding a baby, stupid stupid stupid.

[Simona]

Please in no way take this next comment as causing an argument or disagreeing with anything that has been said.

But can we actually legally refuse Ofsted entry to the house if they turned up at the door once we had confirmed identity.

I only ask because I would hate for a cm to read that we could and if faced with Ofsted at the door refused entry and got into serious trouble for it :(

I believe Ofsted have a 'right to entry' but that is subject to anyone being happy the person at the door is who they say they are...hence the badge which should confirm the name of the inspector who has called you to advise a cycle inspection is due...inspectors always state who they are when they call.
If any cm is unhappy they can verify by ringing Ofsted and I am sure the inspector will understand

it takes a while to get through to Ofsted these days so be warned

For an 'unannounced' inspection ..yes they still have the right but because we have had no warning we cannot verify the person and I would say that wanting to verify means we are 'safeguarding' our children

This raises another issue...added to my list for the meeting.

I think we have opened a can of worms here...maybe worth another clarification!
Let me think and I will reflect about sending another email to Ofsted later on

[sing-low]

Please in no way take this next comment as causing an argument or disagreeing with anything that has been said.

But can we actually legally refuse Ofsted entry to the house if they turned up at the door once we had confirmed identity.

I only ask because I would hate for a cm to read that we could and if faced with Ofsted at the door refused entry and got into serious trouble for it :(

Good point, Fussy, and really important to say.

[rickysmiths]

You also have to consider that if a school or nursery is given an unannounced inspection, they often last for at least a couple of days, a whole day minimum. That gives parents plenty of time to give their views.

If an inspector called on a cm, there's a chance they won't see any parents & the cm won't have had chance to get any parents' comments. Even if a cm is only given 24hrs notice it's long enough to get some parents' views in writing.

I agree to some extent. However we should all now be getting regular feed back from parents and be able to demonstrate how we communicate with them. My Daily Diaries and or LJs go home every day and weekly so parents can comment and tell me what is going on at home etc. In the past I have done a parents questionnaire just before an inspection but I prefer the ongoing feedback. I do try to get parents to do some feedback for me when they leave. In all the 12 years and 4 Ofsted inspections I have had in that time none of the inspectors has made any attempt to speak to any of my parents.

[Mouse]

Please in no way take this next comment as causing an argument or disagreeing with anything that has been said.

But can we actually legally refuse Ofsted entry to the house if they turned up at the door once we had confirmed identity.

I only ask because I would hate for a cm to read that we could and if faced with Ofsted at the door refused entry and got into serious trouble for it :(

I've wondered this.

If I was working I doubt I could refuse entry, once I was happy with their identification (and I would phone to check).

But what if it was a day I don't work? If it was for a complaint, obviously they could come on any day, but if it was for an inspection I'd want to refuse entry as I wasn't working that day. Nothing would be set up for minding, my paperwork would be packed away, I couldn't demonstrate how I work with children because there wouldn't be any there!

And worse still...for me and the inspector...I'd probably still be in my PJs!!!

[adedwards68]

If they give some notice at least you would be expecting them. Turning up unannounced they could be anyone, they might show ID but how do we know its real?

Sent from my iPhone using Childminding Forum

[Simona]

Good news...well if you can call it that
On Linkedin someone posted this info on the inspection section.
She was delivering a 'safeguarding' session to a school today as part of the school inset day...so no children present.
As she arrived so did an inspector attempting to do an 'unannounced' inspection...she got turned away and was not happy apparently!!!

She could have checked if the school was open?
so it is happening everywhere not just to cms

I also posted our concerns over 'identification' of these inspectors who turn up at our door...so the issue has been flagged up...we need to keep at this.

[nikki thomson]

Well I work different days each week as parents work shifts and if it was a day I wasn't working then err no they are not passing my door, that's my personal time they need to stop bumping there gums and be professional. X

[Simona]

I gathered all your comments and sent another email to Ofsted last night asking about 'rights of entry' and our right to verify the identity of an inspector who just turns up.

Can I ask if anyone has rang Ofsted and asked them whether we can expect a call from an inspector when we are due a 'cycle inspection'?

would be interesting to hear what they say...if you do let us know!

[Mouse]

It'll be interesting to see what they say in response to your new email Simona.

I phoned about 3 months ago for a different query and asked about my inspection at the same time. It's 4.5 years since my last inspection, so I asked when I was likely to be due another. I didn't specifically ask if I would get a call beforehand, but the person I spoke to said I would be due an inspection sometime during this cycle and I would get a phone call asking if I was minding, which days I worked etc (ie. the standard reply).

Of course, just because they said someone will call, we now know that doesn't necessarily mean they will!

[Joan21plus]

Hi that would be me, I have an office upstairs and I am not prepared to leave my children with a stranger whilst I go and sort it out last inspection Outstanding this who knows !

[rickysmiths]

I believe Ofsted have a 'right to entry' but that is subject to anyone being happy the person at the door is who they say they are...hence the badge which should confirm the name of the inspector who has called you to advise a cycle inspection is due...inspectors always state who they are when they call.
If any cm is unhappy they can verify by ringing Ofsted and I am sure the inspector will understand

it takes a while to get through to Ofsted these days so be warned

For an 'unannounced' inspection ..yes they still have the right but because we have had no warning we cannot verify the person and I would say that wanting to verify means we are 'safeguarding' our children

This raises another issue...added to my list for the meeting.

I think we have opened a can of worms here...maybe worth another clarification!
Let me think and I will reflect about sending another email to Ofsted later on

You wouldn't ring Ofsted to confirm the Identity of an Inspector. You would ring Tribal or Prospects depending on which Company they come from.

[Simona]

You wouldn't ring Ofsted to confirm the Identity of an Inspector. You would ring Tribal or Prospects depending on which Company they come from.

Rickysmiths...I am afraid you are incorrect...please ring Ofsted yourself and ask for clarification
In fact, in a way we are all incorrect as there is a procedure to follow

I have received a reply from Ofsted regarding 'inspectors' identity or how to verify it and what to do
I will post it later when I get something else clarified within that reply.

Mouse...you are correct
Regardless of when cms were inspected in the previous cycle EYFS 2008-2012 ALL providers and cms will be inspected once in the new cycle of EYFS 2012 which finishes in 2016

This has been stated very clearly by Ofsted who have said they prioritise Inadequate and satisfactory cms and also respond to 'complaint triggered inspections'

If providers are good or outstanding they may not be in the priority lane BUT...who knows what is going on?

This was recorded in the minutes of a 17 Nov 2012 'Ofsted cms workshop' which Ofsted endorsed.
The event was held in my part of the country,,,in fact I organised it and come to think of it Rickysmiths was there I believe??

Bear with me and I will come back later

[jackie 7]

The inspectors don't come from ofsted but tribal or prospects. That is the problem. Thanks you Simone for raising it. And yes if they turned up unannounced I hope I have the forum pair to send them away.

[Simona]

The inspectors don't come from ofsted but tribal or prospects. That is the problem. Thanks you Simone for raising it. And yes if they turned up unannounced I hope I have the forum pair to send them away.

Ok ...if I am not believed I will stop this process right now and continue it for my own clarification and peace of mind....I can see this is not going to get to the aim we wanted: clarification.

Why is it a problem if the inspectors come from Tribal or Prospect? Ofsted are openly recruiting inspectors at this very minute and have said clearly those 2 companies inspect on Ofsted behalf?

I am not sure what it is meant by 'I have the forum pair to send them away?'...
cms cannot do that if the inspector's identity has been confirmed by Ofsted by following the right process....but I leave it up to you to sort out.

[Mouse]

Another post has been made on FB about an unannounced inspection. The inspector is said to have made 3 attempts to call unannounced before phoning to ask the cm to stay in the next day. It was also reported that the inspector told the cm that this was becoming more normal.

Of course, this is only info passed on in a friend of a friend, third hand way, but if it is accurate, it changes the idea that inspectors are calling unannounced simply because they happen to be in the area. It would indicate that they are deliberately aiming to carry out inspections without prior warning.

In all the years since ofsted took over I have heard of very few unannounced inspections other than for complaints and concerns. Then in the last few months I am hearing of them happening regularly. Surely this has got to be as a result of changes to policy or procedure, not just random inspectors deciding they are going to do it that way?

[FussyElmo]

I would ring Ofsted to confirm identity not tribal or prospects - my inspector didn't tell me who is was with so that would be useless.

I saw this on a fb page which I thought was a good idea. She would ring Ofsted give them the name of the inspector and they wold contact the inspector with a chosen password. Once the inspector came back and could tell you the password it would confirm they were who they said they were. Long winded but at all times safeguarding the children.

Please everyone I beg of you lets get some sort of confirmation that it is alright for us to refuse entry to an inspector once identity is confirmed. We do not want anyone being in trouble for this. And yes it is going to be upto us to confirm their identity :(

[Simona]

Another post has been made on FB about an unannounced inspection. The inspector is said to have made 3 attempts to call unannounced before phoning to ask the cm to stay in the next day. It was also reported that the inspector told the cm that this was becoming more normal.

Of course, this is only info passed on in a friend of a friend, third hand way, but if it is accurate, it changes the idea that inspectors are calling unannounced simply because they happen to be in the area. It would indicate that they are deliberately aiming to carry out inspections without prior warning.

In all the years since ofsted took over I have heard of very few unannounced inspections other than for complaints and concerns. Then in the last few months I am hearing of them happening regularly. Surely this has got to be as a result of changes to policy or procedure, not just random inspectors deciding they are going to do it that way?

Mouse...if this is happening Ofsted have to be made aware but they will not listen to who said what on Facebook..or via a friend of a friend...or hearsay...that unfortunately is not 'credible' to Ofsted...they need facts

These incidents have to be reported openly so Ofsted can verify when, who and why...the only inspections that can be carried out without announcement are the 'complaint triggered' ones...so Ofsted says and I have to believe that unless we are told otherwise

Fussy Elmo...you are on the right track and Ofsted can confirm that by checking with Tribal or Prospects

[miffy]

Simona - thank you for all your efforts in trying to get clarification on this.

I agree you would contact Ofsted in the first instance to verify an inspector's identity - not Prospects or Tribal (I wouldn't have their numbers anyway but Ofsted's number is on my parent poster so to hand if you like).

I am unsure about exactly when an inspector has right of entry - it is set out in the Childcare Act but haven't had the will or time to decipher that yet - is it really a blanket right or do they have to have some grounds, eg safeguarding issue.

And even if they do have a blanket right of entry, I do not think that would extend to when you are not working.

Both the unannounced inspections and right of entry are two things that need absolute clarification from Ofsted so we all know where we stand - I am grateful for the time you are spending trying to sort this out for all our benefits.

Miffy xx

[Mouse]

I haven't heard of anyone local having an unannounced inspection, but would certainly encourage them to report it if it did happen. I understand what you say about it having to be first hand evidence in order for Ofsted to be interested.

I do still think that someone, somewhere must have made a decision to carry out unannounced inspections. Why else would so many inspectors think it's ok to do it if Ofsted clearly state they shouldn't? Maybe the inspection companies are going their own way on this, or have issued guidelines that vary from Ofsted's.

Keep digging away at it Simona. Hopefully we'll get some answers soon.

As I've said before, I really have no problem with being given very little notice about an inspection, but I'd rather a phone call at 9am saying they'd be there at 10, than answering a knock at the door and finding an inspector there!

[Simona]

What I am doing is taking this huge concern to #OfstedBigConversation
Other providers are taking their concerns about grading and other matters...so I am making it very clear indeed that cms face different concerns of equal value and colleagues across the sector are not dismissing this.
We are being listened to on a wider scale because the Labour party is now aware and have tabled questions to Ofsted because providers are updating the party on this.

I have reported that the #OfstedBigConversation post has now 8 meetings and have just heard Reading will be added...so up to 9 now.
Nursery World may do an article today

If you cannot go do you know someone who is who can take your concerns?
I am taking what I know to London.

An inspector has a right of entry when you have checked her credentials, which they carry and you are satisfied of their identity

From the email this is what is now very clear:
If an inspector fails to show you her credentials then it is absolutely your right to call Ofsted
Ofsted inspectors carry a passport, Tribal and Prospects carry a card and letter confirming they do inspections on behalf of Ofsted.

If you call Ofsted they would call Tribal and Prospects to verify the inspector is genuine and tell you on the phone

With regards to unannounced scheduled cycle inspections I read that these are well planned in advance by inspector so they 'will not just drop in'

An inspector should make clear the purpose of their visit...is it an inspection or a visit triggered by complaints which they are investigating for Ofsted?
This is as far as I will go now but will continue to get this pushed until we have in black and white.

May I make a plea to cms who wish to remain 'independent'?...please be aware of what you need to do and keep updated and know your rights and procedures...
it is the only way to sustain your independence as no one will be there to support you on the spot when this happens.....learn to be assertive and confident when you challenge especially when you feel uncertain.

I am putting my head on the block here but will do so in a professional and engaging manner and hope that tactic works.

[sarah707]

I have asked again on Facebook and we now have a few cms coming forward and saying 'it happened to me'. I will collate the replies when it's run a little longer.

Naturally we also have a lot of concerned messages in between the replies. It is hard to focus a thread on just one question when members are so worried.

All we can do is keep asking the question.

It is great that Ofsted are engaging on this one - but quite worrying that they say they don't know what is happening in their own company......

......................

Simona - Jackie7 was replying in a jokey way - you might have missed some of the previous comments about a forum member and the 'balls' that she loans out if members have a problem! :laughing:


Let's all keep working together guys! We all need the same answers :D

[Simona]

I have asked again on Facebook and we now have a few cms coming forward and saying 'it happened to me'. I will collate the replies when it's run a little longer.

Naturally we also have a lot of concerned messages in between the replies. It is hard to focus a thread on just one question when members are so worried.

All we can do is keep asking the question.

It is great that Ofsted are engaging on this one - but quite worrying that they say they don't know what is happening in their own company......

......................

Simona - Jackie7 was replying in a jokey way - you might have missed some of the previous comments about a forum member and the 'balls' that she loans out if members have a problem! :laughing:

Let's all keep working together guys! We all need the same answers :D


Please everyone do not think I am having a huge 'sense of humour failure' as I am going from forum to Twitter and LinkedIn and much more to gather evidence and make sure cms are in there and being listened to and taken seriously.

On top of agencies, childcare hubs, wraparound care trials, LAs, funding, preparing for an inspection, conditions, lack of support, what we call ourselves now, sustainability....this latest from Ofsted is very unwelcome
My plate is full as I am sure every cm feels the same

What I have reported below is from the Ofsted manager...if Ofsted do not know what is happening I am sure we are now making noises loud enough to be heard.

[Mouse]

Do we know if any of the representative bodies, (Pacey, PLA, UKCMA) are aware of this & doing anything about it?

[Simona]

PLA are very much on the ball and the CEO will be at the London meeting on the 13th so I will catch up with him there and I have emailed my concerns to him...if you look at the NWorld article out today he is including cms in that and the press release
...the rest I am not sure

we have to speak for ourselves as 'independent' cms, or at least that is how I feel and I can say we are making enough noise!

[Simona]

Any more revelations on this subject?
Has any cm had an 'unannounced' inspection recently that was NOT triggered by a complaint but a scheduled inspection?

Please share your experiences...only then we can prove these inspections are happening

[KAZBAZ55]

I wasn't aware they were doing unannounced visits either. Puts you on edge straight away. Not good!!! :panic: