Birth certificates.

[nikki thomson]

I bumped into a friend today at the farm and her little boy is going to be starting with a cm in sep, she said she got a text from the cm saying that current legislation now requires my friend to show cm a copy of her sons birth certificate?!!!, I have not heard of this am I living in my cave again?.
I have no new Lo's but was just curious about it. X

[rickysmiths]

No there is no legislation that requires seeing Birth Certs normally.

However if they are going to receive the 3-4 year old funding then yes they probably do need to show proof of birthday.

[Smiley]

Is her little boy two?
As of September if parents are seeking childcare and want to have a funded place for a two year old, providers need to request birth certificate ID and address. Previously parents had to apply for two year old places via childrens centres but from September they can apply direct to childcare providers.

[nikki thomson]

No there is no legislation that requires seeing Birth Certs normally.

However if they are going to receive the 3-4 year old funding then yes they probably do need to show proof of birthday.

He's a baby, how strange, I do know said cm i will ask her when I see her next. X

[rickysmiths]

He's a baby, how strange, I do know said cm i will ask her when I see her next. X

Then no we have no legal need to see the birth cert. You have to have the parents sign to say who has Parental Responsibility maybe she asks to see the Birth Cert to check who are named as the parents to check this. I guess that is not unreasonable and maybe she has had a bad experience in the past and has not been given the correct info..

[FussyElmo]

It is a really good way of checking who has pr. Perhaps she uses the "its Ofsted" as its easier to get people to bring it :D

[maisiemog]

I ask to see it to ensure I know who has parental responsibility. And that's why you need to show it to a school when a child starts as well!

[cathtee]

Someone told me that we need to see the birth certificate and get a form signed to say who can and cannot see the child while in our
care, there is so many discrepansies (spell?) in this I just don't know what to do:(

[Simona]

I bumped into a friend today at the farm and her little boy is going to be starting with a cm in sep, she said she got a text from the cm saying that current legislation now requires my friend to show cm a copy of her sons birth certificate?!!!, I have not heard of this am I living in my cave again?.
I have no new Lo's but was just curious about it. X

This is totally incorrect
All LAs have proof of children's birth date when they allocate funding...the info is on their database
Cms who draw funding will have to tell the LA the date of birth and postcode...the LA checks these.

This is another 'unnecessary' burden and condition imposed by this LA and totally unacceptable...it was never a request before

Parental responsibility is another subject altogether and often involves legal proceedings...nothing to do with the funding

Can this cm point us to the legislation that says so?

[christine e]

I ask to see it to ensure I know who has parental responsibility. And that's why you need to show it to a school when a child starts as well!

Really? When my own children started school I only showed them the short version which does not include details of parents.

[nikki thomson]

I have never been asked by my children's school to see there birth certificate, the plot thickens. X

[Simona]

cathtee and maisemog...parental responsibility lies with both parents unless there is a very good reason why one has been denied it!

This is far more complicated than we think and I doubt we have the 'right' to request to see a birth certificate...if in doubt check with your LA or EY team and they will direct you to the right dept who will explain this

This is just hearsay by one cm who believes there is new legislation about this...there is no such thing!

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Someone told me that we need to see the birth certificate and get a form signed to say who can and cannot see the child while in our
care, there is so many discrepansies (spell?) in this I just don't know what to do:(

There is no legislation that I am aware of that says that we need to see a birth certificate, however we do need to establish parental responsibility.

[clareelizabeth1]

My DS's birth cert does not show who his father is but that doesn't stop parental responsibility.

[Bumble Beez]

I was advised on a safeguarding course to take a copy of child's birth certificate...
I never have done tho as I feel I have enough paperwork cluttering up my office as it is lol!!

Sarah x

[Simona]

Both parents have a right to parental responsibility ...
Cms have no right to establish anything of the sort unless we are told by the powers that be of any arrangement that bar one parent from having that responsibility.

Any cm who is a parent should know this....imagine how you would feel if someone was asking you for your child's birth certificate just to establish parental responsibility?

Please check with your EY as this is a very delicate matter and inaccurate info is being shared here
If any cm needs to check the date of birth of any child they will find that on the HV Red Book

[christine e]

I have never been asked by my children's school to see there birth certificate, the plot thickens. X

Well I am going back quite a while but seem to remember having to show it when they first started

[FussyElmo]

We have to send copy of our birth certificates to school once in nursery and reception plus proof of address.

Who knows why this cm is asking for it. Maybe she had a bad experience, maybe her la recommended she did so she thinks you should. Entirely up to her no law that says she should but equally no law that says she shouldn't.

[Simona]

We have to send copy of our birth certificates to school once in nursery and reception plus proof of address.

Who knows why this cm is asking for it. Maybe she had a bad experience, maybe her la recommended she did so she thinks you should. Entirely up to her no law that says she should but equally no law that says she shouldn't.

I am not sure what schools require but this thread is about a cm asking parents for a birth certificate...for what reasons?
it has never been asked before and there is no new law about it..schools may do things differently but I have no idea what they ask

[skyblue]

I had to show preschool my dd's birth certificate.
I was told on my accreditation course that I would need to make sure that if I had a child who came to me and was receiving the funding, I would have to check their date of birth to make sure eligible. They said the best way to do this would be checking their birth certificate. I never have asked to see a birth certificate as the children I received funding for had come to me since quite young.

I was told on a safeguarding course that parental responsibility isn't automatically given to the father and there are some strange rules for it. I would assume both parents had parental responsibility unless told otherwise and would need some kind of proof. A birth certificate wouldn't necessarily proof anything.

[maisiemog]

I know as CMs we don't have to ask for it but I had a bad experience over PR once and now I ask so I know who is named as parents on the certificate. Purely for peace of mind, not a requirement!

And you should be asked for it when your child starts school. I could only find the short one and got asked for the full one as it didnt have our names on it. Cost me £12 for a new one and then found it the week after!!! And we were told by the school it's to help with issues of parental responsibility.

[Simona]

I know as CMs we don't have to ask for it but I had a bad experience over PR once and now I ask so I know who is named as parents on the certificate. Purely for peace of mind, not a requirement!

And you should be asked for it when your child starts school. I could only find the short one and got asked for the full one as it didnt have our names on it. Cost me £12 for a new one and then found it the week after!!! And we were told by the school it's to help with issues of parental responsibility.

Am I being a bit thick here...what if the parents have separated since the birth certificate was issued and there is a perfect good arrangement in place by the court or whatever?

This thread was about a cm asking for her business not about schools.
If there is ever an issue of parental responsibility the parent who signs the contract would/should/must tell a cm...it is not our job to ask for a certificate.

I have it on my contract: Name of parent with parental responsibility (if applicable)
The parents are then obliged to tell me what restrictions/arrangements are in place and I would follow them...a certificate confirms the paternity or maternity not the 'responsibilities' of each parent??

May be worth asking any association what they think...I would welcome clarification

[rickysmiths]

Both parents have a right to parental responsibility ...
Cms have no right to establish anything of the sort unless we are told by the powers that be of any arrangement that bar one parent from having that responsibility.

Any cm who is a parent should know this....imagine how you would feel if someone was asking you for your child's birth certificate just to establish parental responsibility?

Please check with your EY as this is a very delicate matter and inaccurate info is being shared here
If any cm needs to check the date of birth of any child they will find that on the HV Red Book



This may not be as simple as that especially if you are dealing with a single parent and especially if the other parent is absent. You can not assume that it is only the parents who have PR because this is not always the case. One parent and a Grandparent may and not the second parent. As cms we are required to establish who has PR for a child. In my experience a lot of parents do not understand PR and so simply asking to see the Birth Cert could be the easiest way though I wouldn't take a copy personally I would just note I had seen it.

[FussyElmo]

Am I being a bit thick here...what if the parents have separated since the birth certificate was issued and there is a perfect good arrangement in place by the court or whatever?

This thread was about a cm asking for her business not about schools.
If there is ever an issue of parental responsibility the parent who signs the contract would/should/must tell a cm...it is not our job to ask for a certificate.

I have it on my contract: Name of parent with parental responsibility (if applicable)
The parents are then obliged to tell me what restrictions/arrangements are in place and I would follow them...a certificate confirms the paternity or maternity not the 'responsibilities' of each parent??

May be worth asking any association what they think...I would welcome clarification

Since Dec 2003 both parents named on the birth certificate have parental resposability this can only be taken away bu a court order.
So a birth certificate is a good way of proving who has pr because if mum says dad has no longer got it but step dad/granddad has she would have proof from the court.

Children born before this date on their birth certificates only the mum has pr a dad would have had to go to court to get it if the parents were not married :thumbsup:

[Emra81]

Since Dec 2003 both parents named on the birth certificate have parental resposability this can only be taken away bu a court order.
So a birth certificate is a good way of proving who has pr because if mum says dad has no longer got it but step dad/granddad has she would have proof from the court.

Children born before this date on their birth certificates only the mum has pr a dad would have had to go to court to get it if the parents were not married :thumbsup:

This is my understanding of it from a school perspective too....biological Mum and Dad have parental responsibility unless someone presents you with legal documentation that says otherwise. On several occasions, I've had parents who have separated and one has asked us not to let the other parent pick their child up from school....unless we see paperwork from the courts telling us the other parent has restricted access then we cannot honour that request and would infact be in trouble with the police ourselves if we tried to stop them :-S

[loocyloo]

when I have a parent claiming funded sessions with me I have to see the birth certificate or passport, and put the identifying number on my form to confirm child identity.

[bindy]

There's no way I would be showing her my babies birth certificate! No need to at all. A birth certificate will not show who as PR. It can be taken away from one or both parents by the courts ( thinking of foster children as an example) in fact children in foster care do not have their BC nor do their foster parents, it is held by social services until the child comes of age.

[maisiemog]

There's no way I would be showing her my babies birth certificate! No need to at all. A birth certificate will not show who as PR. It can be taken away from one or both parents by the courts ( thinking of foster children as an example) in fact children in foster care do not have their BC nor do their foster parents, it is held by social services until the child comes of age.

You may not have any choice when they start school. After getting caught in the middle of a messy break up I now ask to see the birth certificates to see who is named on it for PR and get parent to sign a form to say there are no court orders in place. I don't ever want the stress I had in that situation again! As PR becomes more of an issue I think that seeing birth certificates will become compulsory, especially with so many separated parents.

[bindy]

You may not have any choice when they start school. After getting caught in the middle of a messy break up I now ask to see the birth certificates to see who is named on it for PR and get parent to sign a form to say there are no court orders in place. I don't ever want the stress I had in that situation again! As PR becomes more of an issue I think that seeing birth certificates will become compulsory, especially with so many separated parents.


Please tell me how a BC will prove this, just a little confused? When parents separate, their names still stay on the BC. My brother is not on his daughters BC (Not married and was not around when she was registered)but he does have PR, after a break up and a court case! In his case a BC would be useless! It all gets very confusing!

[Simona]

when I have a parent claiming funded sessions with me I have to see the birth certificate or passport, and put the identifying number on my form to confirm child identity.

Do you ask for these documents as a precaution or because your LA suggests this as a condition of funding?
I am going to clarify this for my own satisfaction...when I did the funding years ago I was not told to aske for any documents...things may have changed since of course!!

[maisiemog]

Please tell me how a BC will prove this, just a little confused? When parents separate, their names still stay on the BC. My brother is not on his daughters BC (Not married and was not around when she was registered)but he does have PR, after a break up and a court case! In his case a BC would be useless! It all gets very confusing!

It doesnt conclusively prove PR but only a court order can remove it for a parent named on there. In the situation i had a BC would have saved me a lot of stress as it proved PR. after that I decided for my own sanity I would have a PR policy. Again not necessary but in my setting I have a few complicated families so helps me. I now have a form for PR asking who is named on the BC and if the child has a court order in place giving anybody not on it PR or removing PR from a parent in it. I know parents can and do lie but after the situation I was in I feel I'm protecting myself as much as I can should it happen again. I spoke in depth with my DO about this and she agreed with me. She also thinks that eventually we will need to have a copy of proof of PR whether it's a BC or a court order.

[FussyElmo]

Do you ask for these documents as a precaution or because your LA suggests this as a condition of funding?
I am going to clarify this for my own satisfaction...when I did the funding years ago I was not told to aske for any documents...things may have changed since of course!!

Our la asks for copies of the birth certificate for funded children.

[bindy]

Before I pulled my daughter out of her private nursery they did ask for a BC for funding. I ask if her passport was OK and it was, I personally was happier showing that than her BC. Its just me, I think OMG is nothing private anymore. MY daughters father is not around and I don't want other people knowing who her father is.