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Gray
25-06-2013, 11:35 AM
I've been using a childminder from late 2012 until now. At £416 per month including £5 per day for meals. My son has been underfed and given meager food for his dinners, for example scrambled egg on toast (not what i would call a dinner at all) as well as having personally heard shouting in his presence from outside the house when picking him up. I have had to supply him with a second meal due to this which doesn't seem right given £5 per day should be more than enough for a balanced meal.
The childminder was told that my term time finishes in late june, but would be advised of the summer timetable as and when possible. When she was informed she has now said I have changed the timetable (o.O) and has cancelled the contract telling me to pay for the next month in advance.

I have used other childminders previous to this lady. With them the payments weren't in advance and the food was in fact a dinner.
Also due to her current state of pregnancy our times have had to be shifted to allow her to attend scans etc.

I'm not happy with this so could use some advice on who to contact etc!!
Many thanks!

WibbleWobble
25-06-2013, 12:30 PM
Have you actually thought about talking to her about this? I think that is your first port of call.

Re the shouting... I am a little confused about what you mean. Is she shouting at your child? Is it just a noisy house? Is your child at risk? If he is then look at ofsted ... If not the talk to your childminder. If you are not happy then give her the notice required and take your child to another cm.

Food wise. I give scrambled egg or beans on toast sometimes. I don't charge for food but that is MY business. She charges you for food and you are not happy with it.... Say so. What about suggesting you provide his meals?

You want to know about who to complain to... I suggest your childminder. You are not getting the service you want , say so. If you had bad service at a restaurant you would complain to the owner... Not the police.

Hope this helps

Wibble xx

WibbleWobble
25-06-2013, 12:31 PM
Also.... It is usual to charge in advance.


Wibble x

Gray
25-06-2013, 12:49 PM
Thanks, I have mentioned the food on a couple of occasions now and think £5 is a bit much for scrambled eggs. I'm not sure who she was shouting at to be honest but its not the best way to behave around a child. So charging prior to receiving services is normal? I was in the understanding that in employment the work had to be performed first, especially given the change abouts with the pregnancy et al. the contract cancellation on her part, despite being told of the upcoming events is the final nail in the coffin. Especially as she knew I wouldn't need her for july. This is my current issue as she is trying to charge for something i have never needed o.O
Thanks for the reply by the way :)

emma04
25-06-2013, 12:53 PM
Firstly I agree with everything wibble has said.

But one thing I would like to add is, why have you not spoken to your childminder sooner? We are 6 months into 2013!

Nothing can be resolved until you speak to your child minder I'm afraid.

I understand that sometimes confrontations can be difficult, but if there is a problem, the sooner it is sorted the better.

rickysmiths
25-06-2013, 12:54 PM
I charge in advance and have always done so and I started minding in 1994.

I don't charge extra for food, I never have but that is how I choose to run my business. Mind you I wish i had been paid a pound for everytime I have quipped with a parent that I should charge due to the amount the children eat.

I provide a morning snack which can be a biscuit and a drink or toast or a toasted muffin or fruit or a combination.

Lunch is usually cold and may be any combination of the following, tuna, cheese, ham, egg sandwich, fingers of cheese or ham, tomato, cucumber, carrot plus lots of fruit, grapes, banana, kiwi, nectarines, peaches, paw paw, apple, pear, strawberries etc. It could be scrambled egg or poached egg on toast or chees on toast or homemade soup with small pasta shapes in it.

Dinner is usually a cooked meal like lasagne, cottage pie, fish pie, pasta bake, chicken curry, roast all served with rice, potato, pasta or cous cous and plenty of veg. Followed by a pudding like rice pudding, semolina or ground rice, sponge pudding and custard, banana custard with fruit or fruit instead.

Sometimes depending on what we have done in a day I may swap the lunch and dinner menu.

If you are unhappy with what your childminder is doing and it is not what you expected you can only resolve it by talking to her.

funemnx
25-06-2013, 12:55 PM
Sorry to hear you are having difficulties. Yes I would agree, talk to your childminder in the first instance and if you really don't think you can work with her then give the required notice. I've been childminding for 14 years and always charged in advance. I can't comment about the food as my minded children either bring their own food which I then heat for them or they go home early enough to eat at home.

Contacting Ofsted and making a complaint should really only be used once you have met and discussed issues with your childminder and still don't feel satisfied or that you believe her working practice is making it unsafe for children to be in that environment (which would be an urgent matter).

samb
25-06-2013, 01:02 PM
Hello I really hope you manage to speak with your childminder. She may actually think that the meals she is providing is sufficient due to experience with children who do not eat as much or maybe they have a very early "high tea" (as the day nursery I used to work at did) which is just to fill up until they eat a full meal at home with parents. She may well just not know you feel like this and would be totally fine to change her practise to suit you. We all have slightly different life styles and so it is always worth trying to find common ground. Providing your childs meals may be an option here?

I also charge in advance - I don't personally know any that don't. I do however allow a parent who struggles with this to pay weekly instead of monthly. Maybe that could help?

If your child was at a nursery you would speak to the manager, if at a childminder - speak to the childminder.

I am not sure what the shouting is in regards to? Noisy children? The childminder - to whom and why?

I hope you can resolve your problems.

Gray
25-06-2013, 01:20 PM
I have tried speaking to her previously to no avail. I informed her from the start that I finish college one month before my son and would notify her if anything changed, when i did she has no accused me of changing the timetable and is charging for next month which ironically isn't covered by the childcare grant so is expecting me to pay for something i do not need with my pathetic benefit money. The fact she has stated she will be contacting her agency if i do not comply is in my eyes a threat and pretty stressful given its exam time now, couldn't be a better time lol!
The food issue has been mentioned a couple of times now but I'm still getting reports of meals like a sandwich and crisps for dinner. Its hard enough to front the money itself without having to fork out extra for more food as the provider hasn't bothered.
Cheers for the advice, going to the CBA after the school run to see what they say about all of this.
x

wendywu
25-06-2013, 01:21 PM
So is your son after school in term time and the 5 pounds is for just dinner. If so it does seem a lot for one meal and scrambled egg is more like a tea.

Payment is always in advance. If she has given you a months notice then you can use her for the 4 weeks while you find another minder who you will feel happier with.

caz3007
25-06-2013, 01:23 PM
I am also paid in advance and always have been but willing to accommodate parents as to weekly, fortnightly or monthly whatever suits them and have done all 3 over the years.

As to the food, we have a cooked meal at teatime but I know others that have a cooked meal at lunchtime and something like beans on toast or scrambled egg would be what we have for lunch, so your CM may have swapped her meals to suit her timetable.

Like others have said, request a meeting with her, I am sure she would be upset to find you aren't happy with things and would like to be consulted, I know I would be.

I don't feel that any of your concerns justify a call to complain anywhere other than with the childminder, except possibly the shouting one, but you haven't elaborated at all at what the shouting was about. I had a lot of after school children once and to get myself heard sometimes I had to raise my voice but always told the parents at collection that I had too. If you had concerns and your child has been with her for some months, I wonder why you haven't raised them with the minder.

The Juggler
25-06-2013, 01:25 PM
hi, sorry you are not happy at the moment. is your son just there after school? £5 does seem excessive for one meal and I would def. expect it to be a bigger meal than scrambled egg on toast. However, if it's for breakfast lunch and tea and snacks, maybe she provides a hot meal at lunch also?

On the term-time, I have term time only contracts also but regardless of the schools my parents work in, term time finishes when my local area schools finish school. I have one mum who finishes beginning of July (private school) but I charge in full until the state school holidays start. So in effect, they get 13 weeks a year payment free. Perhaps she can't afford to lose the payment if you are wanting to drop hours earlier than end July OR if you are lookign for more hours, she maybe doesn't have the space until the other children finish school at end of July? However, she clearly hasn't done the best job of explaining things to you or the reasons why.

I also charge in advance, this is normal.

You do need to have a chat with her - maybe you can clear a few things up? Have a chat first, if you still want to complain you would still do this officially in writing to your childminder.

I hope you can work things out. :)

Gray
25-06-2013, 01:28 PM
Yes he's there from school ti 6 pm as in full time education but only for four evenings of the week. Just seems a bit silly she has to make threats and cancel the contract given she was informed of my term dates from both the start of our contract as well as the beginning of this year.

WibbleWobble
25-06-2013, 01:28 PM
Thanks, I have mentioned the food on a couple of occasions now and think £5 is a bit much for scrambled eggs. I'm not sure who she was shouting at to be honest but its not the best way to behave around a child. So charging prior to receiving services is normal? I was in the understanding that in employment the work had to be performed first, especially given the change abouts with the pregnancy et al. the contract cancellation on her part, despite being told of the upcoming events is the final nail in the coffin. Especially as she knew I wouldn't need her for july. This is my current issue as she is trying to charge for something i have never needed o.O
Thanks for the reply by the way :)

I just want to make something clear...you do not employ her. She is providing a service and if you don't like paying up front then leave ( after the right notice period) and find someone else. I done ask for money upfront but I am a rare cm and up to now I haven been stung ( you will be surprised how many parents don't want to pay).
She is pregnant...she is needing to get to appointments. And you are not happy with this.

Find another cm, one who doesn't charge up front, who provides food to your standard and won't get pregnant.

Wibble

Gray
25-06-2013, 01:30 PM
I just want to make something clear...you do not employ her. She is providing a service and if you don't like paying up front then leave ( after the right notice period) and find someone else. I done ask for money upfront but I am a rare cm and up to now I haven been stung ( you will be surprised how many parents don't want to pay).
She is pregnant...she is needing to get to appointments. And you are not happy with this.

Find another cm, one who doesn't charge up front, who provides food to your standard and won't get pregnant.

Wibble

Respectfully is that not what the definition of being employed is? As mentioned I'll be speaking with citizen's advice to sort the contract malrky out as its a bit ridonkulous to me.
Thanks again.

WibbleWobble
25-06-2013, 03:01 PM
No. Employing someone means paying NI, tax sickness etc.

So with respect you are not employing her

If you were you would not be able to question her appointments for her pregnancy

Wibble

hectors house
25-06-2013, 03:16 PM
People who are employed earn at least the minimum wage, are entitled to at least 4 weeks paid holiday plus paid bank holidays, pregnant women who are employed are entitled to paid time off for anti natal appointments and are entitled to 6 weeks maternity pay at 90% of their wages. Not to mention national insurance and pension contributions paid for by the employer.

Your first port of call regarding any concerns you have for the care given to your son by your childminder needs to be verbally or in writing with her.

I charge monthly or weekly in advance - I charge £1.50 for each meals which would be more than scrambled egg on toast, I do charge parents who work in schools or who are students a half fee retainer for 4 weeks then they pay in full (so choose to send child) for the remaining holiday period.

Maybe the time has come to give your childminder notice as I wouldn't want to work with any parent who didn't feel they could approach me direct. Yes you will have to pay for the notice period.

Good luck with talking things through with your current minder.

QualityCare
25-06-2013, 03:41 PM
I thought you might be interested to read these two statements copied from a childminder information document produced by a local authority

Childminders are contracted with parents to provide services in the childminders premises, so they are not employees of the parents.
A Home Childcarer is a registered childminder based in the home of the children’s parents. Most home Childcarers are employed by the children’s parent(s).

A nanny would also fall into this second category.

As others have suggested discuss with the childminder what sort of meal you require your son to have or ask her to not supply them any more, did he tell you he had scrambled egg or did the childminder.
As regard payment we are all different, l don't ask for payment in advance l also expect to be paid weekly under no circumstances will l accept monthly pay.
I am sure you remember being pregnant and needing time off for appointments we don't make them up just to annoy and inconvenience the parents and it is impossible to get a tailor made appt to suit parents needs.
Do you know why she was shouting? maybe a child was doing something that would endanger themselves or someone else, perhaps she was shouting at someone upstairs, did you ask on the day it happened.
Sit down without your child being present and have a chat about your expectations of a childminder and listen to the service she is offering and decide if it is what you require.
I am sorry if l offend or have not answered with what you want to hear.

Tazmin68
25-06-2013, 03:52 PM
I ask parents to pay in advance. Some pay weekly some pay monthly. With regards to shouting. I know I sometimes shout mainly when I have 3/4 schoolies playing on the Xbox upstairs and dinner is ready or parents arrive. If children had a cooked meal at lunchtime then it might a lighter snack after school. With regards to appointments when I had appointments I either took little one with me with parents permission but sometimes it is not appropriate to take them and in that case I would not work and would not have charged to be fair anti natel appointment usually are in the day they do not do them in the evening.

lisbet
25-06-2013, 03:54 PM
Sorry to hear you're feeling unhappy with the situation. It sounds as though there have been crossed wires? My perspective in case it's useful to you:

1. Registered childminders are self employed sole-traders. Parents sign up to use their service and pay the fees according to the terms and conditions set out in the contract - just the same as if you used a day nursery. Like nurseries and many childminders I choose to ask for fees in advance (and would of course refund fees if I had to close ie for illness.)

2. When I offer term time only contracts I make it clear that it refers to the term dates for primary and secondary schools in my local authority, rather than the university term dates, and record this on the contract. It sounds like the childminder didn't pick up on the difference between school and uni term dates? Did you write the dates down for her anywhere? If you can refer her back to this, it might help you clear up the issue.

3. I choose to include meals in my fees. I choose to offer the main meal of the day at lunchtime, and then a snack like toast, banana and milk at 4pm, to keep the children going until they get home for dinner with their parents. I think £5 seems steep for one 'light' meal.

I echo the others that you need to talk to the childminder and explain like you have here, or write to her if relations are too strained. I hope the situation can be resolved.

Gray
25-06-2013, 04:43 PM
Thanks this has helped me a lot, I've been told to pull out the original contracts and review etc so will take it from there with the CAB.

Helen79
25-06-2013, 05:07 PM
I'd get your contract out and have a good look through it. Most childminders usually have it in the contracts that there needs to be a minumum number of weeks notice before contracted hours can be changed. If this is in your contract and you've given less than the contracted minimum notice then she has the right to charge you full fees for July. Most childminders charge in advance and then deduct any days off from the next invoice.

I often do things like scrambled egg on toast for dinner but wouldn't dream of charging £5 for it, that's a lot even for a really good dinner.

If you've spoken to your childminder and still aren't happy then you can put your concerns in writing as a complaint and she will have to respond officially to them.

donna porter
25-06-2013, 05:13 PM
I would say to her that your child is really hungry when u get him home and ask her if she could in courage him to eat more? I sometimes do scrambled eggs or beans occasionally and it's a perfectly healthy meal but if u feel your child is getting that too often u need to say so . Good luck x

WibbleWobble
25-06-2013, 05:58 PM
i am on my computer now so i can do this properly..

OP...this scenario is very familiar...recently a student whose child was with me dropped the bombshell she wouldnt need me much earlier than she signed up for - i gave her a term time only contract in good faith she would not need me from the end of june. She told me in february this was now going to be April...and that she wanted me to keep his space open for end of september

so in essence she wanted me to go without money for five months. When i said i wasnt prepared to accept that and she had signed up until end of June she threw the "i am a single mum and a student and have no money" card at me.....and said i was being unhelpful.

I wanted to throw the "i need to feed/clothe/keep a roof over my families head" card back at her but i didnt.....i just reminded her of her obligation, the fact she had signed a contract and legally (even is she went to CAB they would also say) she hadnt a leg to stand on.

She terminated the contract immediately and was very cross with me.

1. I dont ask for money upfront
2. I provide a well balanced meal and snacks for no extra charge
3. I pride myself on the fact i am not a shouty person
4. I do TTO contracts with no retainers as long as i know i am not being taken for a mug
5. I am not pregnant

wibble

nikki thomson
25-06-2013, 05:59 PM
You know what I would do, I would say from now on he will no longer require an evening meal, provide your own large snack for him to have after school to keep him going until he goes home with you, you can make things up for him which can be easily reheated when you get home so not alot of messing about for you and you'll be saving yourself £80 a month your paying her for a sandwich.
Oh yes and I charge in advance and if you really can't get on with how she runs things find someone else, not every cm suits every parent, hope you can resolve your issues with her. X

bunyip
25-06-2013, 07:15 PM
Hi Gray :waving: ,
Sorry to hear you're having difficulties. I don't pretend to have the answers or know even half the facts, but what follows are a few ideas to think about from a sideways point of view.

I feel strongly that both the CM and the client need to go back and look at the original contract and see what it says. I do get the very distinct impression that both parties may find they have expectations and assumptions that are not reflected in the contracted terms.

Employment. As other members have said, the client does not 'employ' the CM in the sense of "being an employer" (with all the legal, fiscal, financial obligations that would entail.) They have contracted to receive a service, and there seems to be a lack of clarity on both sides over what that service includes precisely.

Meals - I agree the meals cited don't appear very substantial or worthy of a £5 charge. That said, did you actually discuss and agree the sort of thing that would be acceptable? (I serve similar things as 'lunch' from time to time, having agreed such with parents. Actually, I had the opposite problem recently with a mum who wanted to send a child with crisps and chocolate whilst I stood my ground and insisted on providing a healthier meal. I have frequently seen parents' ideas of a packed lunch which have more to do with prime-time TV advertising than nutritional value.) Maybe a communication problem. For one thing, there are frequent posts here from members tearing out their hair cos they spend much time and money on proper cooked meals that end up in the bin when the child refuses them. Maybe this CM has had the same experience and resorted to whatever the child will eat in a desperate bid to get some sort of food in their belly?

Payment in advance. I personally insist on this. Reason: far too many CMs lose far too much hard-earned money to clients who get behind with payments or leave without paying the final bill. This seems to be a big problem with student arrangements where a 3rd party academic institution is meant to be paying and fails to do so, or changes the rules along the way. I would add that I appreciate the financial pressure of demanding money up front, so I personally accept if parents want to pay monthly, weekly, or even daily - but i refuse to leave myself open to abuse.

BUT - my previous paragraph is absolutely irrelevant to the OP's case. It doesn't matter a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys what I or any other member does. What matters is the OP's contract with their CM. I may be wrong, but from my reading of post#1, my impression is that the CM has demanded payment for the notice period in advance, but would not normally be paid in advance. Unless that is a specific term within the contract, I suspect the CM may be trying for more than she may be strictly entitled in terms f the due payment date (or more likely reacted with anger/frustration/tiredness of a mum-to-be/whatever, and miscalculated.)

Term-time. There seems to be a fundamental disagreement over what represents "term time". I (and I think many other CMs) define "term time" in my policies and contracts. I find this absolutely essential to avoid confusion and disappointment. I have clients whose children are under 3 different education authorities. I have clients who work/study in 5 different universities/university hospitals. No two of those worthy institutions can agree upon the dates for "term time" so I define it for my provision. In cases like this, "assumption" translates as "another word for a c0ckup".

"Threats". I really don't understand what is meant by the CM contacting her "agency" (post#9). If I'm correct in taking this to mean she will seek legal advice in some form, then that is not a "threat". It a perfectly legitimate course of action, and a civil right open to both parties in any dispute. Also, there is nothing wrong with someone ending a contract if they do so under the terms of that contract. But all too often, someone feels aggrieved when it happens to them. (We usually see the opposite side of this on the Forum, with CMs unable to cope with the fact of life that clients give notice too.)

Reporting. If the meals really have been "meagre" and if the shouting really is a safeguarding issue (possibly distressful to the child?) then, yes, maybe the CM is falling short of regulatory requirements. But my gut feeling is that Ofsted may well dismiss this as a contract dispute, given that the points of complaint all seem to be linked very closely to the money issue. (eg. The meals are being described as "meagre" in relation to the £5 charge, not in terms of nutritional value and the child's needs, etc.) If I were the parent, I would think twice before telling the authorities that I'd knowingly continued to let someone effectively malnourish my child for several months. I hope this is no more serious than just a misunderstanding.

Hope you manage to get a solution. :)

The Juggler
25-06-2013, 09:02 PM
Thanks this has helped me a lot, I've been told to pull out the original contracts and review etc so will take it from there with the CAB.

that sounds like a good idea. you will have written the dates or number of weeks in the year covered by your term time only contract. If it doesn't state any dates and these are not written anywhere else then I think you will have to put it down as a learning experience for next time hon. Just for next time you should note that most TTO minders would probably not offer you a TTO contract with a June end date but had this discussion happened and you knew she would charge you then you could probably claim the extra month from your college/uni grant or funding.

It sounds like a bit of a communication break down with your minder. It doesn't sound like she is the best at communicating with you nor you with her sadly. You shouldn't be having to guess what he has for tea.

I'd say move on and start afresh.

samb
26-06-2013, 07:54 PM
If going through your contract with someone helps you to understand what you may not have understood at first then it's probably a good idea not just for this instance but also to help you know what to look for in the future.

As others have said - if it just states term time only then you may be able to negotiate with your childminder about paying for the extra time not needed. Double check the policies and procedures too as maybe it states what term time is in there and if you have signed to say you agree with the policies and procedures then these form part of your contract too. I state that term time follows xxx school dates and that if parents need extra they must book in advance. I do not offer for them to pay less than school term time as I couldn't afford to take on the contract.

It is good that the childminder is speaking to someone else to give her advice as she may be advised in your favour and be able to review her practise too.

You haven't said anything else about the shouting- do you think this is a safeguarding issue? If so you need to report the incident.

Do you feel you want your child to continue with this childminder? I think if I had tried to speak before, couldn't afford it and things weren't improving I would move on. However, if you feel you can move on then great -just speak to her with an idea in your head about what you would like and what you won't be prepared to budge on aswell as what you would be happy to negotiate on.

Good luck.