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sarah707
06-06-2013, 07:57 PM
NO CHANGES to ratios in the Eyfs 2014 ...

Childminders can care for a maximum of 6 children under the age of 8 when working on their own.

Childminders can care for more children than this when working with an assistant - and with available floor space carefully measured and assistant permission from Ofsted in place.

Floor space requirements - Space Requirements (http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/freeresources/Free%20downloads/spacerequirementseyfs2012.html)

Assistant information - - Assistants (http://independentchildminders.weebly.com/assistants)

However, our normal ratios are 6 children under the age of 8 - of whom 3 can be under 5 with only 1 baby at a time. These ratios include our own children.

For continuity of care and in exceptional circumstances (these are Ofsted’s words, not mine) childminders can still change our number of under 1s and / or under 5s, to accommodate current families who need us to be flexible.

So, for example, we can care for twins under the age of 1 if we have enough under 5 spaces ... or we can continue looking after another baby for continuity of care when we have a baby of our own ... or we can take on a sibling baby (younger brother or sister of a child already in our care) - again as long as we have the space ... or we can look after 4 under 5s to accommodate a parent who needs to change their hours or days.

We can also still count school children (children who attend full time 10 sessions a week school) as 5 for the purposes of our ratios.


The rules are - we must not have more than 6 children under 8 at a time and we can do all these things as long as the change is carefully risk assessed and parents are happy with the arrangement.

There is a lot of flexibility in the rules but we must be cautious - we have to be sure we can justify what we are doing to Ofsted if an allegation of 'over minding' is made against us AND we must continue to ensure we are offering a high level of both care and education to all the children.


The rules are in the EYFS -
Early Years Foundation Stage (EYFS) - Schools (http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/teachingandlearning/curriculum/a0068102/early-years-foundation-stage-eyfs)

They are further explained in this factsheet from Ofsted -
Ofsted | Factsheet: childcare - The numbers and ages of children that providers on the Early Years and Childcare Registers may care for (http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/factsheet-childcare-numbers-and-ages-of-children-providers-early-years-and-childcare-registers-may-c)

There is more information in this factsheet from the Childminding Forum which was proof read by Ofsted -
Variations2012 (http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/freeresources/Free%20downloads/variations2012.html)

And you can find sample wording for your risk assessment and ideas for wording letters to parents in this document, again checked by Ofsted -
Changes to Conditions of Registration (http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/freeresources/Free%20downloads/changestoconditionsofregistration.html)

If parents have any questions about ratios - if they are confused by the news headlines - if they are unsure whether you can carry on with any variations you currently have in place - reassure them and maybe either print or suggest they read this thread.

If you have any more questions about ratios / variations / changes to conditions / exceptions (or whatever you would like to call them) we are always happy to give advice on the Childminding Forum but please remember it is only best practice advice from experienced childminders - you must make the final decision yourself!

:D

bindy
07-06-2013, 06:31 AM
Sarah please can you tell me if, with an assistant I can have school children as well as 6 under 5? My assistant is level 3 but at the moment still doing her childminding course, I know once she is registered we can have more than 6 between us. At the moment I have 2 over 8 but a mother wants me to have her 6 year old after school. Thank You

sarah707
07-06-2013, 08:29 AM
Sarah please can you tell me if, with an assistant I can have school children as well as 6 under 5? My assistant is level 3 but at the moment still doing her childminding course, I know once she is registered we can have more than 6 between us. At the moment I have 2 over 8 but a mother wants me to have her 6 year old after school. Thank You

I have been deliberately vague about assistants because every situation is different.

You have to have enough floor space in your play rooms -

Space Requirements - EYFS 2012 (http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/freeresources/Free%20downloads/spacerequirementseyfs2012.html)

If you care for more than 6 children under 8 because you have an assistant (and in some Local Authorities more than 6 children in total) you will need to apply for planning permission which is costly, can take a long time and is not guaranteed - so you must check that first.

The rules for assistants are different depending on the register - the EYFS for up to age 5 and the Childcare Registers for over 5s -

Ofsted | Factsheet: childcare - Requirements for the Childcare Register: childminders and home childcarers (http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/factsheet-childcare-requirements-for-childcare-register-childminders-and-home-childcarers)

You also have to make sure you have secure procedures in place if your assistant is off sick or suddenly leaves to make sure children's care and learning is not compromised.

I suggest you speak to Ofsted and your Local Authority first.

Hope this helps! :D

angeldelight
07-06-2013, 08:53 AM
Thanks Sarah

Great information there

Angel xxx

Rick
07-06-2013, 11:43 AM
Can I just check.....are you taking 'baby' to mean an under 1? I think we had a thread about this before and there was some confusion. Did it mean younger sibling or under 1?

sarah707
07-06-2013, 12:02 PM
My understanding of 'baby' in relation to the ratios information in the EYFS is 'under 1' because that is how requirement 3.40 was explained to me by Ofsted -

'If a childminder can demonstrate to parents and/or carers and inspectors, that the individual needs of all the children are being met, then exceptions to the usual ratios can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies, or when caring for their own baby.'

My Ofsted contact explained that a number of childminders would lose their automatic right (previously on their certificates) to care for 2 under 1s / 2 babies - and that was changing because the EYFS now contained rules which would allow it to happen in specific circumstances.

Here is the actual conversation between me and Ofsted -

My question - 'The childminder has 2 children under 1 on their certificate. This is a long standing agreement with Ofsted due to their length of time as a childminder and experience / qualifications.
Can Ofsted clarify whether this will be removed from September and why?'

Ofsted's answer - 'Yes it will be removed - because the EYFS now gives flexibility in certain circumstances to allow childminders to care for 2 babies under the age of 1.'


I hope that clarifies my understanding of the situation :D

kimnolan87
07-06-2013, 12:14 PM
Thanks for the info! Great advice as usual! Xxx

a morsley
07-10-2013, 10:07 AM
Any body know if there is any guidance on space and ratios when caring for under8's and over 8's together. I have been childminding for 15 years and as the children get older I dont stop caring for them this means I regularly have 8 or 9 children with under 5's as well. Can I?

sarah707
07-10-2013, 04:55 PM
Any body know if there is any guidance on space and ratios when caring for under8's and over 8's together. I have been childminding for 15 years and as the children get older I dont stop caring for them this means I regularly have 8 or 9 children with under 5's as well. Can I?

There aren't any space requirements for over 8s - these are all the rules we have been given :D

Space Requirements - EYFS 2012 (http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/freeresources/Free%20downloads/spacerequirementseyfs2012.html)

clairer
25-10-2013, 08:20 PM
There are no limits on the children that are cared for over the age of eight but child minders have to show Ofsted that the older children do not affect your ability to care for the younger ones.

I am relatively new to child minding and often wonder how it is that child minders I see on the school run only seem to care for children age 6 ish and under. Do some child minders give the parents notice once the child reaches a certain age or are the parents simply swapping to cheaper school clubs once the children are old enough?

I face the difficulty that many of my mindees are going to be approaching age 8 by the time of my next Ofsted inspection and I may only have one in the early years. I just hope they will be able to see I do a good job- no matter what the age of the child.

Happiness
22-11-2013, 07:41 PM
Hi there. ATM I look after my daughter who is 17 months old, a boy who is almost 3 (Monday to Friday 7:30am-4:30pm), another little boy who is 11 months old( Monday and Tuesday 7:30am-5:30pm). I also do school pick ups on some days. The child is 8. I was asked last week to drop off and pick up from school a girl who is 4. I said know because of the ratio ( only 3 under 5). Can someone please explain that to me? I have been only childminding for over a month. I question myself everyday if I am doing it right. TIA.

Happiness
22-11-2013, 10:51 PM
Found it. Plonker :)

Children aged four and five
If children aged four and five only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, and/or during school holidays, they may be cared for at the same time as three other young children. But in all circumstances, the total number of children under the age of eight being cared for must not exceed six.

bobbin22
12-02-2015, 09:32 PM
Hi everyone, I will make this is short and as understandable as possible, basically I have had child A since last July, mum & dad give me their shift work pattern six monthly which is great, I had a new enquiry and worked out with new mum hours to work round child A's hours, because 2 days are the same. we did contracts and have had settling in days and Baby B has settled great, now Baby A's mum has been in touch as their shift pattern has changed mid month and it means that one and a half days they would both be here, meaning I would have 4 children under five every so often. Now I am aware that Ofsted only want you to use variations for "exceptional" circumstances, however, I do not want to let either family down. Baby A can be classed as continuity of care, however Baby B is obviously a new mindee, but has settled well in her settling in days, mum is just going back from maternity leave so I feel that I do not want to let her or Baby down. Can I class this as exceptional circumstances?

Simona
05-03-2015, 08:52 AM
Hi everyone, I will make this is short and as understandable as possible, basically I have had child A since last July, mum & dad give me their shift work pattern six monthly which is great, I had a new enquiry and worked out with new mum hours to work round child A's hours, because 2 days are the same. we did contracts and have had settling in days and Baby B has settled great, now Baby A's mum has been in touch as their shift pattern has changed mid month and it means that one and a half days they would both be here, meaning I would have 4 children under five every so often. Now I am aware that Ofsted only want you to use variations for "exceptional" circumstances, however, I do not want to let either family down. Baby A can be classed as continuity of care, however Baby B is obviously a new mindee, but has settled well in her settling in days, mum is just going back from maternity leave so I feel that I do not want to let her or Baby down. Can I class this as exceptional circumstances?

It is the EYFS that stipulates how many children we can care for...for cms this is a maximum of 6 under 8 and we can increase our numbers in certain circumstances

Please ring Ofsted and ask for support as this is a clear case of 'flexibility'...make sure the parent is aware and explain the family's needs very clearly to Ofsted.
Keep us posted and good luck

sarah707
05-03-2015, 07:36 PM
Hi everyone, I will make this is short and as understandable as possible, basically I have had child A since last July, mum & dad give me their shift work pattern six monthly which is great, I had a new enquiry and worked out with new mum hours to work round child A's hours, because 2 days are the same. we did contracts and have had settling in days and Baby B has settled great, now Baby A's mum has been in touch as their shift pattern has changed mid month and it means that one and a half days they would both be here, meaning I would have 4 children under five every so often. Now I am aware that Ofsted only want you to use variations for "exceptional" circumstances, however, I do not want to let either family down. Baby A can be classed as continuity of care, however Baby B is obviously a new mindee, but has settled well in her settling in days, mum is just going back from maternity leave so I feel that I do not want to let her or Baby down. Can I class this as exceptional circumstances?

There is no right or wrong answer - it's about how you manage the situation.

Ofsted no longer give advice on variations - they tell you to check the Eyfs and risk assess.

You can have 4 under 5 for continuity of care but you would need to be sure it is continuity - if it's a new child I feel from experienece and supporting other cms in similar situations that an inspector might question your motives...

I hope that helps x

Simona
06-03-2015, 08:24 AM
As other members know I have approached the DfE and OFSTED to clarify the ratios for CMs.
In addition I have also spoken to inspectors themselves.
Continuity of care is a reason for variation of our numbers....many cms have cared for 5 under 5 because 2 of the children had siblings...that is well documented and those cms were not downgraded

In this forum 'new business' is often mentioned...neither DfE nor inspectors are aware of this 'terminology'....that is what they are looking into.

There are over 50,000 cms...each one of us can increase our numbers...as long as we never exceed 6 under 8....or have restrictions imposed by Ofsted for various obvious reasons.
Each cm will be unique when making her decision to have more than 3 under 5.
The EYFS does not refer to varaiations any more...it refers to CMs ratio...that is 6 under 8

Doing Risk assessment, considering space and the setting, equipment, routine, qualifications, experience and much more are part of that decision....the latter 2 matter a lot.

I personally could not advise any cm in particular because any varaition is unique to that cm...what the inspector sees on day of inspection bears a lot on the grading....it is not just the numbers but the care each child is receiving.

I hope this forum will consider that, since 2012, this issue has caused lots of stress, loss of business and fear of Ofsted amongst the members...I have not met any of this fears elsewhere.

It is time to resolve this issue before the EYFS is changed again before Sept 2015
we have the opportunity to raise it and get this clarified once and for all.

Anyone concerned please approach your representing association as well as I have done.

Simona
07-03-2015, 08:11 AM
I have received a response from the DfE and it answers the CMs ratios queries on continuity of care and new business.

I will post that reply shortly in a separate thread.

FussyElmo
07-03-2015, 08:46 AM
I have received a response from the DfE and it answers the CMs ratios queries on continuity of care and new business.

I will post that reply shortly in a separate thread.

Lets hope it matches what they told Rick or else we are back to the catch 22 again :D

Simona
07-03-2015, 08:56 PM
I am aware that Rick has done much work on this issue and that has to be recognised.
I also believe many of the questions raised to Ofsted and DfE were on behalf on the Forum FB CMs.
I cannot comment on that as I have only seen snippets and a few replies and I am not on FB
I also raised this at the London OBC months ago

I have addressed this matter in the manner that seemed appropriate to me questioning the EYFS wording, asking for a possible review of the CMS ratio section, asking about continuity of care, new business, overlap and the withdrawal of the Ofsted Factsheets 120117....although that is a question for Ofsted.

I was never in any doubt what CMs could do when considering looking after more than 3 children under 5...the response has made me even clearer on that.
We are allowed 6 children under 8 or, as the DfE puts, a ratio of 1:6...in exceptional circumstances and by providing evidence that all children' s needs are met....the responsibility for this rests solely on each CM doing her own variation.
There should not be a Catch 22 situation any more but if we continue to have problems we will continue to raise questions.

I need to sift through the various emails and will post the relevant sections as soon as I can and the DfE's response....somehow I feel our concerns are being slowly addressed
It will be up to CMs to interpret that reply but to me it is clear.

hectors house
07-03-2015, 10:13 PM
I am aware that Rick has done much work on this issue and that has to be recognised.
I also believe many of the questions raised to Ofsted and DfE were on behalf on the Forum FB CMs.
I cannot comment on that as I have only seen snippets and a few replies and I am not on FB
I also raised this at the London OBC months ago

I have addressed this matter in the manner that seemed appropriate to me questioning the EYFS wording, asking for a possible review of the CMS ratio section, asking about continuity of care, new business, overlap and the withdrawal of the Ofsted Factsheets 120117....although that is a question for Ofsted.

I was never in any doubt what CMs could do when considering looking after more than 3 children under 5...the response has made me even clearer on that.
We are allowed 6 children under 8 or, as the DfE puts, a ratio of 1:6...in exceptional circumstances and by providing evidence that all children' s needs are met....the responsibility for this rests solely on each CM doing her own variation.
There should not be a Catch 22 situation any more but if we continue to have problems we will continue to raise questions.

I need to sift through the various emails and will post the relevant sections as soon as I can and the DfE's response....somehow I feel our concerns are being slowly addressed
It will be up to CMs to interpret that reply but to me it is clear.

I would just be useful to be told in black and white what all the scenarios for "exceptional circumstances" are as other than sibling baby everything else is open to interpretation by the Ofsted inspector on the day. I showed my inspector my letters to parents informing them about variations (continuity of care - parents needing to change or increase days) and she was fine with that, but we keep hearing about people downgraded for making variation decisions. We know the ratios for children under 8 - it's the ratios for under 5's that sorting out.

And if you have 3 mindees and one parent gets pregnant, then you are allowed 4 children due to sibling baby but what happens if 2 parents get pregnant, are you allowed 5 children due to 2 sibling babies? Or 5 children if 2 parents need to increase days, swap days etc.

loocyloo
07-03-2015, 10:22 PM
I would just be useful to be told in black and white what all the scenarios for "exceptional circumstances" are as other than sibling baby everything else is open to interpretation by the Ofsted inspector on the day. I showed my inspector my letters to parents informing them about variations (continuity of care - parents needing to change or increase days) and she was fine with that, but we keep hearing about people downgraded for making variation decisions. We know the ratios for children under 8 - it's the ratios for under 5's that sorting out.

And if you have 3 mindees and one parent gets pregnant, then you are allowed 4 children due to sibling baby but what happens if 2 parents get pregnant, are you allowed 5 children due to 2 sibling babies? Or 5 children if 2 parents need to increase days, swap days etc.

Yes ... 'exceptional circumstances' needs further explanation! What is exceptional to me, might not be exceptional to someone else ( ie inspector! )

Currently I have 2 mums whose work days might change ... both might need a day I currently already have 3 children... actually, I wouldn't do it and have said I can't as it wouldn't work currently with the ages; but that's not to say that in a years time it wouldn't work.
I also currently have 4 children one day ... mum of one has had baby... if she asks me to take babe that day ... It's a sibling so do I have 5?

Rick
08-03-2015, 07:22 AM
I would just be useful to be told in black and white what all the scenarios for "exceptional circumstances" are as other than sibling baby everything else is open to interpretation by the Ofsted inspector on the day. I showed my inspector my letters to parents informing them about variations (continuity of care - parents needing to change or increase days) and she was fine with that, but we keep hearing about people downgraded for making variation decisions. We know the ratios for children under 8 - it's the ratios for under 5's that sorting out.

And if you have 3 mindees and one parent gets pregnant, then you are allowed 4 children due to sibling baby but what happens if 2 parents get pregnant, are you allowed 5 children due to 2 sibling babies? Or 5 children if 2 parents need to increase days, swap days etc.

I think the point is there's a difference between what is technically possible and what's practically possible. Technically you can have 6 under 5. It will depend on the specific situation and how the inspector interprets it. We have always urged caution going over 4 under 5's for continuity of care. The more children you have, the harder it is to prove to an inspector that you are providing high levels of care and learning.

Simona
08-03-2015, 11:17 AM
Very interesting responses...I feel you are shooting the messenger...and I have not even posted the DfE response....food for thought.

Rick...the replies I have received...15 pages of emails not counting the Ofsted's ones and the initial hour discussion with the first DfE person ...are not the same as the few I have seen before, including the reply from Hudson to the cm whose letter you posted in another thread.
By different I mean that the terminology is different now and the info has branched off in other directions

Cms can look after 4 under 5 or even 5 under 5...proven and tested even by Ofsted who have graded such CMs Good and Outstanding with those numbers.
Hint....if cms want to search the reports on these they can easily trace them back a couple of years.

The Forum urges caution.on the basis that Cms have reported being downgraded by the inspector? why did they get downgraded? that should be in their report.

The responsibility... according to Ofsted, DfE and 'inspectors' I have spoken to for advice on this ...is that the CM has to decide for herself, no 2 cases are the same.
No one can urge anything apart from taking a serious approach to RA and evidence ...agency Cms have to prove to their agency they can care for the increased number

what matters is that 'the needs of all children are met' when the cm uses a 'flexible approach' (quote) but they must prove so as long as it is not more that 6 under 8!



HH...you say you had 4 under 5 and I believe you were recently graded O?
Your inspector was OK with your numbers...but you keep 'hearing' about downgrading those who increased their numbers and it is the inspector's interpretation?...it is what she sees and hears on the day.
I have not heard anything like that...would those cms come and explain?

I would urge you contact DfE yourself and ask questions.

Loocyloo...you say you have 4 children one day?...how did you get to that being an 'exceptional circumstance'?
the inspector cannot decide what is exceptional...it is up to us to prove .
Maybe you too could email the DfE...see what reply you get

I personally believe we are handing Ofsted and DfE another stick to beat cms with...our inability to understand the ratio and the fact that we keep referring to variations when they do not exist anymore
This can be added to the inability to run a business as Truss used to say and the waffle Gyimah is using to flog agencies.

One thing I feel fairly confident is that the DfE woman must have contacted Ofsted before I received the reply because I have been told the reason Ofsted withdrew the factsheet 120117...which Ofsted did not address in my email.

Will the EYFS be tweaked to be a bit clearer?...it looks like it will be 'considered' according to the answer received ...on the basis of that I am off to ask more questions.

The DfE is also consulting with Ofsted and 4 Children on the 'possibility' of putting answers to the most FAQs...so we are making progress and there is hope!

natlou82
08-03-2015, 12:32 PM
I really appreciate how much work and effort you are putting into this Simona. I personally felt reassured by yourself on a previous thread. I do have a continuity of care situation where it could be helpful to the parents if I went to 4 under 5's but at this present time I have risk assessed and thought about my abilities and decided against it. As you have said some CMs may handle 4 under 5's with ease but due to my experience level and the fact that 2 of my LO's are under 2 it's not right for me at the moment.

julie w
08-03-2015, 12:56 PM
I posted on here a while ago as a parent needs to swap a day due to her uni changing her days which will take me to 4 on a Wednesday.However theres nowhere (that I can find in EYFS) that says 'continuity of care'
3.42. If a childminder can demonstrate to parents and/or carers and Ofsted inspectors or their childminder agency that the individual needs of all the children are being met, exceptions to the usual ratios can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies, or when caring for their own baby. If children aged four and five only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, and/or during school holidays, they may be cared for at the same time as three other young children. But in all circumstances, the total number of children under the age of eight being cared for must not exceed six.

Rick
08-03-2015, 01:12 PM
I posted on here a while ago as a parent needs to swap a day due to her uni changing her days which will take me to 4 on a Wednesday.However theres nowhere (that I can find in EYFS) that says 'continuity of care'
3.42. If a childminder can demonstrate to parents and/or carers and Ofsted inspectors or their childminder agency that the individual needs of all the children are being met, exceptions to the usual ratios can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies, or when caring for their own baby. If children aged four and five only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, and/or during school holidays, they may be cared for at the same time as three other young children. But in all circumstances, the total number of children under the age of eight being cared for must not exceed six.

I replied to your other thread but 3.30 states "Exceptionally, and where the quality of care and safety and security of children is maintained, changes to the ratios may be made."

The letter from Nick Hudson confirms continuity of care is one of those times you can change ratios whilst staying within 6 under 8 ratio.

Simona
08-03-2015, 08:42 PM
I really appreciate how much work and effort you are putting into this Simona. I personally felt reassured by yourself on a previous thread. I do have a continuity of care situation where it could be helpful to the parents if I went to 4 under 5's but at this present time I have risk assessed and thought about my abilities and decided against it. As you have said some CMs may handle 4 under 5's with ease but due to my experience level and the fact that 2 of my LO's are under 2 it's not right for me at the moment.

Thanks for that...absolutely your choice what you are ready to take on!
I received the DfE's reply on Friday around 6 pm...I was not around yesterday but looked at the chain of emails today and have highlighted the important bits

Tomorrow I will post a couple of useful extracts which I hope will be helpful to other Cms as they have been to me :thumbsup:

Simona
09-03-2015, 02:01 PM
These are extracts from several emails to the DfE

My query:
Following our discussion please can you look into the matter of the numbers Cms can look after in the EYFS.
We are allowed to increase our numbers with Risk Assessment, parents' awareness and consideration for all children's needs....as long as we do not care for more than 6 under 8.

The EYFS is not clear on this and there are conflicting messages on continuity of care and new business....the latter you seem not to have heard of but you are clear on continuity of care.

DfE's response quotes from paragraph 3.42 of the EYFS but adds the following:

However, this list is not exhaustive and the Department’s view on the issue of continuity of care and changing the ratio and/or the ages of the children being cared for is that the needs of all children must be met and their safety ensured.

Having said this, we are aware that some childminders would appreciate further clarity on the ratios and when changes to the ratios can be made (i.e. continuity of care).
We are therefore working with Ofsted and our strategic partner 4Children on the possibility of putting up answers to some of the most frequently asked questions (FAQs) on this topic based on advice from the Department.

My additional query:
If this is of any help would you be able to clarify this point as well?
As an example: a cm has 3 children under 5
One child leaves at 1pm
The cm receives a request from a new parent to start at 12pm...this means 1 hour overlap
The children are not related...would this be a reason to consider 'flexibility' in addition to the usual Risk Assessment, all children's needs taken account of etc etc?

This particular kind of request is often due to parents working flexible shift/hours but the confusion arises as cms refer to 'new business'.

Reply from DfE on 6 March 2015:
The EYFS Statutory Framework does not provide details of the circumstances in which exceptions to childminder ratios can be used within the overall 1:6 cap.
The EYFS states that any changes to the make-up of ratios (for whatever reason, whether it be to accommodate continuity of care needs or other business needs), must be decided by the childminder and the onus is on the childminder to demonstrate to parents/carers and Ofsted inspectors or their childminder agency, that the needs of all the children will continue to be met, within the context of the exceptional circumstance in question.


The EYFS has statutory status that is underpinned by relevant legislation that was last updated in September 2014. There are no current plans to undertake a full scale review of the EYFS but we will consider at the next opportunity whether any updates to the paragraphs that make reference to the childminder ratios are necessary

I hope this is of some help to you all.

natlou82
09-03-2015, 03:53 PM
Thanks again Simona, so what I interpret these responses to mean is that CMs themselves decide what is an exceptional circumstance within their business, all risk assessments have to be done to ensure needs of all children are met and all parents need to be happy with this. As long as you stay within 6 under 8 it's fine. Do you draw the se conclusions?

Rick
09-03-2015, 04:19 PM
These are extracts from several emails to the DfE

My query:
Following our discussion please can you look into the matter of the numbers Cms can look after in the EYFS.
We are allowed to increase our numbers with Risk Assessment, parents' awareness and consideration for all children's needs....as long as we do not care for more than 6 under 8.

The EYFS is not clear on this and there are conflicting messages on continuity of care and new business....the latter you seem not to have heard of but you are clear on continuity of care.

DfE's response quotes from paragraph 3.42 of the EYFS but adds the following:

However, this list is not exhaustive and the Department’s view on the issue of continuity of care and changing the ratio and/or the ages of the children being cared for is that the needs of all children must be met and their safety ensured.

Having said this, we are aware that some childminders would appreciate further clarity on the ratios and when changes to the ratios can be made (i.e. continuity of care).
We are therefore working with Ofsted and our strategic partner 4Children on the possibility of putting up answers to some of the most frequently asked questions (FAQs) on this topic based on advice from the Department.

My additional query:
If this is of any help would you be able to clarify this point as well?
As an example: a cm has 3 children under 5
One child leaves at 1pm
The cm receives a request from a new parent to start at 12pm...this means 1 hour overlap
The children are not related...would this be a reason to consider 'flexibility' in addition to the usual Risk Assessment, all children's needs taken account of etc etc?

This particular kind of request is often due to parents working flexible shift/hours but the confusion arises as cms refer to 'new business'.

Reply from DfE on 6 March 2015:
The EYFS Statutory Framework does not provide details of the circumstances in which exceptions to childminder ratios can be used within the overall 1:6 cap.
The EYFS states that any changes to the make-up of ratios (for whatever reason, whether it be to accommodate continuity of care needs or other business needs), must be decided by the childminder and the onus is on the childminder to demonstrate to parents/carers and Ofsted inspectors or their childminder agency, that the needs of all the children will continue to be met, within the context of the exceptional circumstance in question.


The EYFS has statutory status that is underpinned by relevant legislation that was last updated in September 2014. There are no current plans to undertake a full scale review of the EYFS but we will consider at the next opportunity whether any updates to the paragraphs that make reference to the childminder ratios are necessary

I hope this is of some help to you all.

Thanks for this. Thankfully, this information from DfE is comparable to the information I received and shared recently.

It does state that 'other business needs' must be decided by the childminder which is probably the most specific DfE are prepared to be. Although, in correspondence with myself they stated that "We do not envisage other situations outside of this (or for continuity of care or exceptional circumstances) where a childminder should take on new business that means s/he cannot meet the ratios." My question referred to 3 under 5 ratio rather than 6 under 8.

Others may feel differently but I personally would decide that exceeding 3 under 5's for new business (you know what I mean by that) is not viable in the current wording of the EYFS. It is neither continuity of care nor exceptional in my eyes. Exceeding 3 under 5 should be only done to prevent a detrimental effect on a child eg removing a settled child due to parent's change in hours. Taking on a new child taking you over 3 EY children does not eliminate a detrimental effect on a child and it may be seen by an inspector as trying to maximise income, whether or not you can prove you are still providing high levels of care and learning.

Simona
09-03-2015, 05:27 PM
Thanks for this. Thankfully, this information from DfE is comparable to the information I received and shared recently.

It does state that 'other business needs' must be decided by the childminder which is probably the most specific DfE are prepared to be. Although, in correspondence with myself they stated that "We do not envisage other situations outside of this (or for continuity of care or exceptional circumstances) where a childminder should take on new business that means s/he cannot meet the ratios." My question referred to 3 under 5 ratio rather than 6 under 8.

Others may feel differently but I personally would decide that exceeding 3 under 5's for new business (you know what I mean by that) is not viable in the current wording of the EYFS. It is neither continuity of care nor exceptional in my eyes. Exceeding 3 under 5 should be only done to prevent a detrimental effect on a child eg removing a settled child due to parent's change in hours. Taking on a new child taking you over 3 EY children does not eliminate a detrimental effect on a child and it may be seen by an inspector as trying to maximise income, whether or not you can prove you are still providing high levels of care and learning.

I differ in opinion Rick and I still believe that any CM must make her decision based on her judgement.
I did not expect an endorsement but I will continue to listen and will continue to raise this matter for as long as it takes.
I have seen some replies and only once read 1:6 from Hudson but no reference to business or I would not have made new enquiries.
I found his reply to the cm rather snotty actually and disrespectful and would be happy to tell him to his face
I have checked the replies you received and I feel they are different...we are not competing just getting this matter sorted once and for all.

What the inspector sees on the day is what matters...if the cm gets it wrong an action would be given...if the cm gets downgraded a clear reason will be given too according to inspectors I have spoken to.

No 2 CMs will be the same when they consider their option and no one should advice them...it is their decision...we can support only
This unfortunately is a disadvantage for ICMs who do not have any support compared to an agency CM who gets plenty to arrive at her decision and is accountable to her agency not an inspector

I would challenge any inspector who considers 'maximising income' against the reason for changing the ratio....that would be a subjective opinion and not relevant when looking at evidence that the cm is meeting all children's needs

I believe many CMs bend over backwards to meet parents' requirements and because of this I have responded to the DfE on 'exceptional circumstances' as I want it clarified further....an hour of overlap is not...in my opinion....exceptional but a way to meet flexible working patterns and apply a flexible approach as is a cm starting work at 6 am to accommodate early shifts or finishing at 9 pm for the same reason.

I was clear before and I am even clearer now on this issue regardless of the EYFS wording....I would encourage any cm concerned about this to write in....in the thousands...that may get the message across for the DFE to act

Natiou82....I share your interpretaion of the business needs
Is it not strange the govt has made childcare a market but insists on keeping the basics of a business wrapped around dubious terminology?
It beggars belief considering our new childcare minister is an ex banker with Goldman I believe?:laughing:

Rick
09-03-2015, 05:43 PM
I differ in opinion Rick and I still believe that any CM must make her decision based on her judgement.
I did not expect an endorsement but I will continue to listen and will continue to raise this matter for as long as it takes.
I have seen some replies and only once read 1:6 from Hudson but no reference to business or I would not have made new enquiries.
I found his reply to the cm rather snotty actually and disrespectful and would be happy to tell him to his face

What the inspector sees on the day is what matters...if the cm gets it wrong an action would be given...if the cm gets downgraded a clear reason will be given too according to inspectors I have spoken to.

No 2 CMs will be the same when they consider their option and no one should advice them...it is their decision...we can support only
This unfortunately is a disadvantage for ICMs who do not have any support compared to an agency CM who gets plenty to arrive at her decision and is accountable to her agency not an inspector

I would challenge any inspector who considers 'maximising income' against the reason for changing the ratio....that would be a subjective opinion and not relevant when looking at evidence that the cm is meeting all children's needs

I believe many CMs bend over backwards to meet parents' requirements and because of this I have responded to the DfE on 'exceptional circumstances' as I want it clarified further....an hour of overlap is not...in my opinion....exceptional but a way to meet flexible working patterns and apply a flexible approach as is a cm starting work at 6 am to accommodate early shifts or finishing at 9 pm for the same reason.

I was clear before and I am even clearer now on this issue regardless of the EYFS wording....I would encourage any cm concerned about this to write in....in the thousands...that may get the message across for the DFE to act

Natiou82....I share your interpretaion of the business needs
Is it not strange the govt has made childcare a market but insists on keeping the basics of a business wrapped around dubious terminology?
It beggars belief considering our new childcare minister is an ex banker with Goldman I believe?:laughing:

I definitely welcome further clarification on this. Sarah, I and Claire Brunner are seeking similar clarification from Nick Hudson.

The trouble with an hour overlap which exceeds your EY ratio is you don't have to take them on, the parents can find someone else. Once you start saying an hour is acceptable, then you open the floodgates. The only possible reason I can think of, and I'm not even certain of this, of exceeding EY ratio for new business is if you are the only person with a particular training for that child in the vicinity.

Simona
09-03-2015, 06:15 PM
I definitely welcome further clarification on this. Sarah, I and Claire Brunner are seeking similar clarification from Nick Hudson.

The trouble with an hour overlap which exceeds your EY ratio is you don't have to take them on, the parents can find someone else. Once you start saying an hour is acceptable, then you open the floodgates. The only possible reason I can think of, and I'm not even certain of this, of exceeding EY ratio for new business is if you are the only person with a particular training for that child in the vicinity.

The ratio for CMs is 1:6 or 6 under 8
What particular floodgates would one open for an overlap? I would judge an overlap acceptable...even Truss believed CMs not being able to do so was senseless
You keep repeating the word 'exceeding' ....that applies only if you go over 6 children and would be a breach of the EYFS
I am lost on what particulat training for that child in the vicinity means?

Please go ahead with getting further clarification or similar ....but remember the DFE decides the ratio and Ofsted check
we are complying and CMs have achieved Good or Outstanding with 5 under 5 if you want to check further.

Simona
11-03-2015, 08:07 AM
It appears that the Forum admin do not agree or accept the reply from the DfE....that is obviously something they need to sort out and approach whoever they believe will offer a better response.

Rick and I agree to disagree on this.

I wish them good luck in their approach to Hudson while I go for the DfE


I am sure this matter will be debated on your FB page...for that reason I have not printed the name of those who have replied to me from the DfE and Ofsted itself.
I am sure cms will understand the reason behind it.

Finally...the explanations given by the DfE are 'acceptable and clear' to me and I feel happier but not entirely satisfied!

I repeat what I have said before though....it is up to Every CM to decide...each cm is different...each inspection is different and what the inspector sees on the day is also of paramount importance regardless of the calibre of RA you may have done!

What I have done is post the feedback but I have not told any CM to increase their numbers or otherwise...that is not my role.

I am continuing dialogue with the DfE on this and have received further emails....I will not be happy until CMs get a proper reply

Thank you all for reading and keep informed!

Caterpillarscm
30-03-2015, 06:45 PM
Hi, I have a quick question that I was hoping for some help and suggestions. I received my registration documents on Friday and have someone who is interested in childcare but not until November/December. I have two children under 5 of my own and I am trying to work out how the ratios will work. I understand that I can only have three children under 5 and I really need to start bringing in money now but would like to offer the propestive parent some sort of solution. Before I became a childminder, I looked for a childminder for one of my children and she said that if I started my Son for one day a week , by the time I went back to work she could apply for an additional child as continuity of care. Is this something that is possible? The parent enquiring would like 3 very short days a week. I understand that I would have to risk assess and ensure that Ofsted and the other parents are happy but would this be feasible for a new childminder? Or are there any other solutions that other could offer? Many thanks for your help.

sarah707
01-04-2015, 08:14 PM
Hi, I have a quick question that I was hoping for some help and suggestions. I received my registration documents on Friday and have someone who is interested in childcare but not until November/December. I have two children under 5 of my own and I am trying to work out how the ratios will work. I understand that I can only have three children under 5 and I really need to start bringing in money now but would like to offer the propestive parent some sort of solution. Before I became a childminder, I looked for a childminder for one of my children and she said that if I started my Son for one day a week , by the time I went back to work she could apply for an additional child as continuity of care. Is this something that is possible? The parent enquiring would like 3 very short days a week. I understand that I would have to risk assess and ensure that Ofsted and the other parents are happy but would this be feasible for a new childminder? Or are there any other solutions that other could offer? Many thanks for your help.

There might be 'ways round' the ratios but Ofsted will see through them if you try and bend the rules.

You can only have 1 under 5 while your children are at home. Once your oldest is in full time school you can take another child under 5.

I hope that clarifies :D