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Becci26
26-05-2013, 08:28 PM
Hiya,

Hope you're all enjoying your bank holiday weekend,

My baby is due in August and was hoping to be off until January, however now DH has been made redundant and is setting up his own business it looks like I will need to be going back to work ASAP (health dependant!), so am thinking back to work for the start of Autumn term.

If I do this I think it is quite likely 2 of my existing children will return to me as they have both made noises about missing me and that the children aren't settling elsewhere (have had to finish early due to spd).

One of my mindees has a sibling who was originally due to start with me this month, so she would, in theory, start with me in September too,

Sooo my question is would it be ok for them all to come back to me as continuity of care?

It would mean (on 1 day a week) I would have:

2 x 2.5yr olds (both existing mindees)
1 x 1 yr old (sibling of mindee)
1 x baby (my lo)

I think this is ok but can someone confirm for me please?

NinaBowen
26-05-2013, 08:43 PM
I would say that even if you weren't looking after these children at the moment and going on maternity leave you could still go ahead and do it because if you had 2 x 2.5yr olds and the sibling of the mindee that if your 3 under 5's so no problem there. But your own baby is an exception. Or if because your baby came first and then you had to sign a new contract with the 2 x 2.5 year olds the exception would be the sibling of the mindee because of continuity of care.

I think!

~Grasshopper~
26-05-2013, 09:09 PM
i think so yes. its continuity of care x

im having my baby end of aug by csection and have 3 weeks off. when i return i will have:

my own 3yr old
my newborn
2 x 2yr olds.

as well as my 5 yr old and 3 over 8's. i cant afford to take any longer off so im not, i will be looking after my own children and doing school runs anyway so may aswell get paid.

xx

Becci26
27-05-2013, 07:40 AM
Ok thanks, yes that's what I thought.

It's a bit complicated as they are not currently in my care but they have not officially left me just effectively on maternity leave.

It would be great if these 3 come to me as would mean I could just work 3 days a week for a little while - 2 of those days finishing at 2:30! Then once baby is a little bigger look at taking on another part timer.

sarah707
27-05-2013, 06:56 PM
I am a bit bothered by this one Becci.

Reading it again, it's not continuity of care because the little one is not with you yet - so you would be taking the little one on as new business.

it's not a variation because of a sibling baby either as allowed in Eyfs requirement 3.40 because the little one is over 1 - and requirement 3.40 specifically covers 2 under 1.

I have never heard of anyone using their own baby as the variation to care for 3 older children at the same time (even supposing it's ok to do it for what I am reading as new business) and my concern is that an inspector might think you are taking on too much with your own little one being so small...

Some variations which are theoretically ok are being questioned by inspectors who make their own judgements about what the childminder is capable of doing.

It's been on my mind all day - I am not sure and I don't want you saying yes to something that might get you into bother - so can I please suggest you re-read the Eyfs and guidance and, if you do decide to go ahead, you get an ok in writing from your local DO or similar so you can show you have taken proper advice.

xx

kp0781
27-05-2013, 07:46 PM
This is interesting as I would have thought this ok ( no expert!!!) . Sorry to hijack your post but I look after a sibling baby of a child I already look after and my own baby. I have 2 mindees 31/2 and just turned 1 who are sisters and my own 2 the same ages. I thought if you were having a baby you could have back the children you were looking after plus your baby. Confused now :-(

Rick
27-05-2013, 08:08 PM
This is interesting as I would have thought this ok ( no expert!!!) . Sorry to hijack your post but I look after a sibling baby of a child I already look after and my own baby. I have 2 mindees 31/2 and just turned 1 who are sisters and my own 2 the same ages. I thought if you were having a baby you could have back the children you were looking after plus your baby. Confused now :-(

I think the point is the LO hasn't started yet so is classed as new business. 2 existing mindees are ok for continuity of care as they would return after maternity leave. Becci's own LO will be born before September so she will already have three before thinking about the forth child who won't start till September. New business is not allowed. As Sarah says, sibling is not a baby (under 1) so does not comply with 3.40 of the EYFS.

Very confusing I know.....I'm not sure if I've got it right but this is my understanding.

Becci26
27-05-2013, 08:16 PM
I think the point is the LO hasn't started yet so is classed as new business. 2 existing mindees are ok for continuity of care as they would return after maternity leave. Becci's own LO will be born before September so she will already have three before thinking about the forth child who won't start till September. New business is not allowed. As Sarah says, sibling is not a baby (under 1) so does not comply with 3.40 of the EYFS.

Very confusing I know.....I'm not sure if I've got it right but this is my understanding.

Yes this is how I understand it too now Sarah has pointed it out.

Initially I was assuming because it was a sibling baby she would be ok but of course she will be over 1 in September so as u say doesn't comply with 3.40

I am going to try and seek clarification within the la but as we no longer have a DO I'm not sure who to speak to :/

Such a shame if I won't be able to do it as I love both these families lots :(

kp0781
27-05-2013, 08:17 PM
Ok thanks......think I've got it!!

Rick
27-05-2013, 08:26 PM
Yes this is how I understand it too now Sarah has pointed it out.

Initially I was assuming because it was a sibling baby she would be ok but of course she will be over 1 in September so as u say doesn't comply with 3.40

I am going to try and seek clarification within the la but as we no longer have a DO I'm not sure who to speak to :/

Such a shame if I won't be able to do it as I love both these families lots :(

I think you also have to think of yourself and not overdo it. My DS is two weeks old. Luckily my wife has allowed me to have a good nights sleep so I can work the next day but she has had irregular sleeps, up at night, asleep some of the day so maybe consider it a good thing if you have to stick to three.

Becci26
27-05-2013, 08:36 PM
I think you also have to think of yourself and not overdo it. My DS is two weeks old. Luckily my wife has allowed me to have a good nights sleep so I can work the next day but she has had irregular sleeps, up at night, asleep some of the day so maybe consider it a good thing if you have to stick to three.

Yes indeedy, I wouldn't want to be irresponsible with it at all,
Part of the reason I wanted to be off until January was because of sleep exhaustion, it could potentially be bad enough anyway let alone having work being thrown into the mix...
DH is registering as my assistant so would at least be around in the early days whilst his business is slow should I need him..

Or perhaps it'll be ok and we can survive without me having to go back to work early, honestly the timing of everything could not be worse!

kp0781
27-05-2013, 08:46 PM
I agree with rick re not overdoing it!!! I really feel it if I've had a bad night!
Grasshopper have you had a cs before? 3 weeks is quite soon to return if you don't mind me saying.

lubeam
27-05-2013, 08:49 PM
Yes indeedy, I wouldn't want to be irresponsible with it at all,
Part of the reason I wanted to be off until January was because of sleep exhaustion, it could potentially be bad enough anyway let alone having work being thrown into the mix...
DH is registering as my assistant so would at least be around in the early days whilst his business is slow should I need him..

Or perhaps it'll be ok and we can survive without me having to go back to work early, honestly the timing of everything could not be worse!

Sorry t be no help and go off on a tangent , but I was wondering if you need a new CBR for dh t be an assistant or will the one he gets when you register be enough ?! Thanks in advance :) x

CLL
27-05-2013, 08:51 PM
I didn't realise the sibling had to be under 1. Strange rule as mums can take 9-12 months off on maternity leave. Why does it matter how old the sibling is if mum is just returning to work? What if she wanted to take 13 months off? Would she then not be allowed to use the same cm?

sarahmc
27-05-2013, 10:33 PM
Could the sibling not start now on a few hour basis? It could then be classed as continuity of care?

Chatterbox Childcare
27-05-2013, 11:31 PM
Whilst I understand the concerns about ages the way I read the EYFS you could have all 4 children at once

You currently have 2 x 2.5 year old mindees and then you will have your own baby which makes three and then a sibling of a mindee comes along to make 4. This is continuity of care for the current parents and not new business the way I am reading it.

Also if you DH is your assistant then you can increase your numbers anyway

~Grasshopper~
28-05-2013, 05:55 AM
I agree with rick re not overdoing it!!! I really feel it if I've had a bad night!
Grasshopper have you had a cs before? 3 weeks is quite soon to return if you don't mind me saying.


yes this is my 4th csection and my mw said i'll be fine, i was driving with 3 weeks last time and totally back to normal. OH will be around to help. x

Nicola Carlyle
28-05-2013, 06:21 AM
yes this is my 4th csection and my mw said i'll be fine, i was driving with 3 weeks last time and totally back to normal. OH will be around to help. x

You need to be careful with your insurance. Legally your not allowed to drive for 6 weeks after a c-section therefore if you were to be in an accident your insurance would not pay out. You will also have to read your insurance policy with regards to childminding to incase there is a clause. ( I say all this having returned to work with a 4 week old baby after an emergency c-section 8 years ago lol). Just be careful and check your policies. No one knows your body like you so listen to it. x

funemnx
28-05-2013, 07:10 AM
Hi B, I might be wrong but can you have another one because you are working with an assistant anyway, regardless of the continuity of care question?

tashaleee
28-05-2013, 07:11 AM
Whilst I understand the concerns about ages the way I read the EYFS you could have all 4 children at once

You currently have 2 x 2.5 year old mindees and then you will have your own baby which makes three and then a sibling of a mindee comes along to make 4. This is continuity of care for the current parents and not new business the way I am reading it.

Also if you DH is your assistant then you can increase your numbers anyway

I read it the same way..... :thumbsup:

Rick
28-05-2013, 07:12 AM
Whilst I understand the concerns about ages the way I read the EYFS you could have all 4 children at once

You currently have 2 x 2.5 year old mindees and then you will have your own baby which makes three and then a sibling of a mindee comes along to make 4. This is continuity of care for the current parents and not new business the way I am reading it.

Also if you DH is your assistant then you can increase your numbers anyway

But the new child, although being a sibling, is over 1 year old so doesn't comply with 3.40 of EYFS

Becci26
28-05-2013, 07:17 AM
With regards my DH as an assistant then yes I could have increased numbers BUT he is setting up his own business so everything is up in the air with when he will be around, although initially he would give me a hand long term I do not want to be reliant on him being home to help out.

Bear23
28-05-2013, 07:39 AM
Gosh what a dilema!! i'm due in 5 weeks and haven't yet thought what i'm gonna do regarding numbers. best getting thinking about it haha, not even totally sure when i plan on finishing yet either..... hmmmmm not very organised :)

tashaleee
28-05-2013, 07:50 AM
But the new child, although being a sibling, is over 1 year old so doesn't comply with 3.40 of EYFS


ok Ive read 3.40 - where does it say a sibling baby MUST be aged under 1??? :huh:

I cant see it defined that a 'sibling baby' = under 1 anywhere (but maybe thats just me :blush:)

Mouse
28-05-2013, 07:54 AM
ok Ive read 3.40 - where does it say a sibling baby MUST be aged under 1??? :huh:

I cant see it defined that a 'sibling baby' = under 1 anywhere (but maybe thats just me :blush:)

It doesn't define "sibling baby" anywhere.

sarah707
28-05-2013, 08:14 AM
Whilst I understand the concerns about ages the way I read the EYFS you could have all 4 children at once

You currently have 2 x 2.5 year old mindees and then you will have your own baby which makes three and then a sibling of a mindee comes along to make 4. This is continuity of care for the current parents and not new business the way I am reading it.

Also if you DH is your assistant then you can increase your numbers anyway

Continuity of care, in my understanding, relates to the child - not the parents. The child must be with you already for their care to be classed as continuity.

Everything I have read from Ofsted and conversations I have had confirm this understanding.

Do you have it clarified in writing anywhere?

Depending on what they decide to do with ratios from Sept this might be a moot point anyway.........

and yes, of course, with an assistant you would be able to be flexible! Becci didn't mention that one - I was answering the original question.

:D

sarah707
28-05-2013, 08:20 AM
Sorry t be no help and go off on a tangent , but I was wondering if you need a new CBR for dh t be an assistant or will the one he gets when you register be enough ?! Thanks in advance :) x

You should ring Ofsted and check - they will make the final decision :D

sarah707
28-05-2013, 08:26 AM
ok Ive read 3.40 - where does it say a sibling baby MUST be aged under 1??? :huh:

I cant see it defined that a 'sibling baby' = under 1 anywhere (but maybe thats just me :blush:)

I discussed this one at length with Ofsted when the rules were first changed.

3.40 replaces the wording on certificates that some childminders used to have, giving them the blanket permission to look after 2 babies under the age of 1.

Instead of the wording - 'you can have 2 under 1' - they put requirement 3.40 into the Eyfs. This allowed all of us to be flexible under the right circumstances.

Sibling babies relates, again according to Ofsted, to either twins or baby siblings of children already in your care.

The definition of a baby is written in the Childcare Act - sorry I'm on hols without all the documentation and a very slow internet connection and I can't be bothered looking for it just now - but in this context it is meant to relate to under 1s - as I say to allow flexibility for taking on twin babies - or welcoming back a currently cared for baby if you have one of your own.

I hope that clarifies where I am coming from :D

JCrakers
28-05-2013, 08:29 AM
I would say yes. A sibling baby obviously means a sibling who has been born and the parents want it to be together with the older sibling. Surely it can start with you at any age, it doesn't say does it?

Parents take different maternity times. Some a couple of weeks, others months.

I've not read anywhere where it says the baby must be under 1?

JCrakers
28-05-2013, 08:30 AM
Ok, sign the "baby" up a day before it turns 1 then....lol

tashaleee
28-05-2013, 09:13 AM
I discussed this one at length with Ofsted when the rules were first changed.

3.40 replaces the wording on certificates that some childminders used to have, giving them the blanket permission to look after 2 babies under the age of 1.

Instead of the wording - 'you can have 2 under 1' - they put requirement 3.40 into the Eyfs. This allowed all of us to be flexible under the right circumstances.

Sibling babies relates, again according to Ofsted, to either twins or baby siblings of children already in your care.

The definition of a baby is written in the Childcare Act - sorry I'm on hols without all the documentation and a very slow internet connection and I can't be bothered looking for it just now - but in this context it is meant to relate to under 1s - as I say to allow flexibility for taking on twin babies - or welcoming back a currently cared for baby if you have one of your own.

I hope that clarifies where I am coming from :D

Totally understand what you are saying Sarah (and why are you on here if you are on hols :laughing:) BUT to me a sibling baby means just that - the younger sibling of a child that is already with you who would be the 'baby' of that family ....

Ofsted should clarify what a 'baby' is if it doesnt mean that - unless they are totally trying to pull us up on things on purpose due to their lack of direction :panic:

For example say you had a child with you and had your 3 x under 5s and parent had a baby... then they went back to work when 'baby' was 13 months old - we would all assume thats fine because it is continuity of care for the family - the fact that the 'baby' is 13 months old rather than 11 months old seems irrelevant....

Bear23
28-05-2013, 09:20 AM
Totally understand what you are saying Sarah (and why are you on here if you are on hols :laughing:) BUT to me a sibling baby means just that - the younger sibling of a child that is already with you who would be the 'baby' of that family ....

Ofsted should clarify what a 'baby' is if it doesnt mean that - unless they are totally trying to pull us up on things on purpose due to their lack of direction :panic:

For example say you had a child with you and had your 3 x under 5s and parent had a baby... then they went back to work when 'baby' was 13 months old - we would all assume thats fine because it is continuity of care for the family - the fact that the 'baby' is 13 months old rather than 11 months old seems irrelevant....

me is very confused now, would my new bAby as in my child not be classed as a sibling as its my baby? or would i have to get rid of a child i have had for over a year to make room for my baby ?? or am i missing the point entirely???

tashaleee
28-05-2013, 09:23 AM
me is very confused now, would my new bAby as in my child not be classed as a sibling as its my baby? or would i have to get rid of a child i have had for over a year to make room for my baby ?? or am i missing the point entirely???

No that would be fine... the OP was talking about taking on a sibling of a current mindee when she comes back after maternity leave (I think... :laughing:)

Bear23
28-05-2013, 09:27 AM
No that would be fine... the OP was talking about taking on a sibling of a current mindee when she comes back after maternity leave (I think... :laughing:)

but isn't that the same thing? depending on the lenght of maternity? its still a sibling?

bunyip
28-05-2013, 09:38 AM
This is a copy/paste of a post I put on another thread recently. Apologies to anyone whom I've already bored with it. :blush:

In short, EYFS fails to define crucial terms (such as "baby") and never even mentions terms we rely on and assume what they mean (such as "variation", "continuity of care", etc.) This leaves it entirely open for Ofsted and inspectors to interpret as they jolly well please.

The principle of 'exceptional circumstances' is contained in EYFS Statutory Framework 3.29 which falls within the part of the document specific to group settings (i.e. nurseries). Since we don't apply nursery ratios to CMs, why should we be relying so heavily on that particular part of the regulations? So I don't think an inspector would have any problem in arguing they could interpret this as not applying to CMs - or, indeed, if Ofsted wished to change their own interpretation at a later date.

The only 'exceptions' clause in any part of the document specific to CMs comes within 3.40 and specifically mentions "...when childminders are caring for sibling babies, or when caring for their own baby." (my emphases.) It also mentions the 'rising 5' situation thus: "If children aged four and five only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, and/or during school holidays, they may be cared for at the same time as three other young children."

We all forget that nowhere does the EYFS document even mention the phrase "continuity of care". It does not define what it means by "exceptional circumstances" or a "normal school day" or (as has already been pointed out a "baby".) It does not say whether a CM can mind 4, 5 or even 6 under-5's in whatever "exceptional circumstances" exist. Ofsted's own 'clarification' guidelines document seems only to clarify the very specific examples contained therein. EYFS does actually state that exceptions should only apply to "babies" (again, without defining what it means by "babies") unless you dip into the section of the document which otherwise applies only to group settings.

This leads me to believe the whole thing is being handled in such an arbitrary way that I'm not at all surprised if Ofsted are vague, inconsistent and allow inspectors to use their own personal interpretations when making judgements. I can only liken it to Lewis Carroll's Humpty Dumpty, who firmly believes that:-

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

lubeam
28-05-2013, 10:26 AM
You should ring Ofsted and check - they will make the final decision :D

Thanks Sarah :)

hectors house
28-05-2013, 10:31 AM
I am sooooooo confused - I have a sibling baby starting with me in Oct/Nov - he will be 10 or 11 months old - on one day a week I will have the new baby (10 months) and his older brother (4 years) , a 2 year old and a 3 year old. Am I ok to take this baby on and if the mum decided to not go back to work until after Xmas when baby then in Ofsted's eyes becomes a "child" not a "baby" would I not be allowed to take him on?

JCrakers
28-05-2013, 10:53 AM
I really don't think it makes a difference to siblings age....it sounds ludicrous to me. It doesn't matter if baby is 11m or 13m does it really?

Also, I thought we could take siblings on? If they are any age........

So if I have a 6yr old who has a 24m old brother who is attending a nursery but mum wants him to be with his sibling is this a no?

~Grasshopper~
28-05-2013, 11:18 AM
You need to be careful with your insurance. Legally your not allowed to drive for 6 weeks after a c-section therefore if you were to be in an accident your insurance would not pay out. You will also have to read your insurance policy with regards to childminding to incase there is a clause. ( I say all this having returned to work with a 4 week old baby after an emergency c-section 8 years ago lol). Just be careful and check your policies. No one knows your body like you so listen to it. x



thats not true, i spoke to my insurance and they said if my dr agreed i was fit to drive. (which she did then i was covered). my dp is also my assistant so i can work.

i only work mon-thu mornings anyway and cant afford any more time off, esp as id loose my families.
x