Ratio nonsense!!!

[newbie]

Most days a new thread appears asking about ratios and what we can and cannot do :(. I have even posted on this subject before myself! I just get the impression that no one feels comfortable with the new ratio rules and Ofsted don't even want to give advise either and just refer u back to the guidelines that no one understands :(. Why can't they just say 3 under 5 and be done with it!!!

[JCrakers]

I do understand the confusion that comes with it and I didn't like the fact that ofsted just dropped us in it without a helpline or any advice. I had to do a variation on the very first day that the rules changed due to a schoolie not starting straight away. I would have liked someone to ask, but when I rang ofsted they really couldn't have given two hoots :(


But I do like the fact that I can have a variation without having to ask for it every time. I've had a lot of variations since September and do have four most days due to parents adding hours or having babies. Before September I only had two variations in five years but being full and being able to say yes to a parent who needs to go in a different day due to parent talks at the school she works in is really good.

[SYLVIA]

I also like the flexibility of being able to cover odd days/hours for parents but I would not want to have 4 or more under 5 every day on a regular basis which I feel some minders may do in future.

[Mouse]

I also like the flexibility of being able to cover odd days/hours for parents but I would not want to have 4 or more under 5 every day on a regular basis which I feel some minders may do in future.

I only have one afternoon when I have less than 4 here. I love it. It's a perfectly manageable number for me & neither me nor the children suffer for it.

I do agree with you about the flexibility. It is so much easier if a parents asks for an extra day or few hours and you can say yes straight away :thumbsup:

[tigwig]

I have just stopped one of my CM friends fron unwittingly going over her numbers. She thought she was ok to take on a new FT child that would put her to 4 under 5's one day because that is what our LA actually told us in the new EYFS training! Unbelievable isnt it? CM's were asking questions like if you have 1 under 1 and have an enquiry for another baby can you do it and they said yes. Said we could even have 6 2yr olds as long as we could prove we had risk assessed. So now in my area hundreds of minders will be overminding with no idea they cant. If it wasnt for this forum I would have probably thought the same but luckily I studied that part of the EYFS and though different!

[tori4]

I only have one afternoon when I have less than 4 here. I love it. It's a perfectly manageable number for me & neither me nor the children suffer for it.

I do agree with you about the flexibility. It is so much easier if a parents asks for an extra day or few hours and you can say yes straight away :thumbsup:

Hi mouse so how manageable is 4 under 5? I have x2 parents wanting more days & hours in September. This does inc x1 family with twins and x1 family with triplets, baby sibling, mum starting uni and new job for x1 parent ( it never rains but it pours)

It will be for x4 out of 5 days and during sch hours so no sch run with x4 plus my own .

All under 3yrs ( untill christmas) at home we will b fine but trying to work out how to manAge at groups? These seem to b getting quiet noisy n hectic at the mo anyway so have already been considering the number of times we go n to which ones. but we all like to b out n about as much as poss farm visits etc could b interesting.

Any advice would be great xT

[sarahmc]

Hi mouse so how manageable is 4 under 5? I have x2 parents wanting more days & hours in September. This does inc x1 family with twins and x1 family with triplets, baby sibling, mum starting uni and new job for x1 parent ( it never rains but it pours)

It will be for x4 out of 5 days and during sch hours so no sch run with x4 plus my own .

All under 3yrs ( untill christmas) at home we will b fine but trying to work out how to manAge at groups? These seem to b getting quiet noisy n hectic at the mo anyway so have already been considering the number of times we go n to which ones. but we all like to b out n about as much as poss farm visits etc could b interesting.

Any advice would be great xT

Wow that sounds busy. I have 4 most days. 1 has just turned 3, two are just 2 and one is 19 mths. It is easier now they are all up and walking, a year ago was so different.
They are all interested in whatever activity or craft is out as they are all relatively at the same stage or can be slightly tweaked for the older one.
They all still sleep after lunch so I have time to tidy up, breathe and eat (even if it is half an hour)
I know the limitations of their abilities and which parks cater better for us. Less exits, least swings, lots of room to run.
Organisation is the key. Routine and a big grin are necessary. Good luck

[bunyip]

Most days a new thread appears asking about ratios and what we can and cannot do :(. I have even posted on this subject before myself! I just get the impression that no one feels comfortable with the new ratio rules and Ofsted don't even want to give advise either and just refer u back to the guidelines that no one understands :(. Why can't they just say 3 under 5 and be done with it!!!

About a year ago 'new improved EYFS' was published. Some CMs got hold of copies. Some CMs (and even a handful of DOs and trainers) took the trouble to read it. Some chose to use it as an excuse to do what the h3ll they pleased because it suited them to interpret the new regulations as a licence to over-mind.

Some of us (and I remember being labelled "paranoid" at the time) said the only practical ways of interpreting it were either:-

1. Stick to the old numbers and don't take any chances.

or 2. Stick your neck out, go over the numbers (without Ofsted's old system of approving it by means of a variation application) and be at the mercy of the somewhat arbitrary judgement of individual to chop off your head if they think differently to the CM.

That's why noone feels comfortable. It's already becoming a reality. It's not a question of whether the glass is half-full or half-empty, it's whether the glass has been smashed to pieces. :(

[VeggieSausage]

Is it not simple? - 3 under 5s, you can only extend this to 4 if it is due to the new baby sibling of an existing mindee or you have had a baby.....or in very extenuating circumstances if for a very short time an existing mindee needs to extend or change their hours slightly.....or am I wrong?

[bunyip]

The only thing that is simple is that EYFS is simply a very badly-drafted document.

The principle of 'exceptional circumstances' is contained in EYFS Statutory Framework 3.29 which falls within the part of the document specific to group settings (i.e. nurseries). Since we don't apply nursery ratios to CMs, why should we be relying so heavily on that particular part of the regulations? So I don't think an inspector would have any problem in arguing they could interpret this as not applying to CMs - or, indeed, if Ofsted wished to change their own interpretation at a later date.

The only 'exceptions' clause in any part of the document specific to CMs comes within 3.40 and specifically mentions "...when childminders are caring for sibling babies, or when caring for their own baby." (my emphases.) It also mentions the 'rising 5' situation thus: "If children aged four and five only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, and/or during school holidays, they may be cared for at the same time as three other young children."

We all forget that nowhere does the EYFS document even mention the phrase "continuity of care". It does not define what it means by "exceptional circumstances" or a "normal school day". It does not say whether a CM can mind 4, 5 or even 6 under-5's in whatever "exceptional circumstances" exist. Ofsted's own 'clarification' guidelines document seems only to clarify the very specific examples contained therein. EYFS does actually state that exceptions should only apply to "babies" (again, without defining what it means by "babies") unless you dip into the section of the document which otherwise applies only to group settings.

This leads me to believe the whole thing is being handled in such an arbitrary way that I'm not at all surprised if Ofsted are vague, inconsistent and allow inspectors to use their own personal interpretations when making judgements. I can only liken it to Lewis Carroll's Humpty Dumpty, who firmly believes that:-


"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

[newbie]

I am under the impression that you can have 3 under 5s which can b increased to up to 6 under 5s if it is for siblings or continuity of care. This is the point I am trying to make in my thread........everyone is interpreting this document and new guidelines differently and Ofsted are being very wholly with their advice!

[SYLVIA]

I only have one afternoon when I have less than 4 here. I love it. It's a perfectly manageable number for me & neither me nor the children suffer for it.

I do agree with you about the flexibility. It is so much easier if a parents asks for an extra day or few hours and you can say yes straight away :thumbsup:

Just wondering mouse, do you do school runs too. I will have 3 under 2 in october and have a school run on those days too. It's a very hilly place and I'm not looking forward to it and it is putting me off a bit