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View Full Version : Nursery or CMinders fault?



CM59
23-04-2013, 04:47 PM
On a nursery collection today, the little girl I look after went to play by a Wendy house by the entrance, she came back with blood on her hand, she had cut two fingers. When I went over to have a look where she had done it, behind the house is a playtable and on there was two large pieces of broken glass from a window higher up! Area was not closed off or any warning put up for parents either. When I saw the staff I informed them and they said they were aware and had bought the nursery kids in, I asked for an accident form and was told quite rudely that if I was making a claim then the school isn't liable. I said I just needed it for my records too. Apparently all non school children has to be in the careers or parent charge and not play with the toys! It wasn't a climbing frame or anything just a little Wendy house frame. surely the glass should have been removed and the area made safe or to have notified us about it. Where do I go from here. Have filled in all the accident forms etc, but the school are saying it was my fault. any advice anyone? Thanks

Rick
23-04-2013, 05:45 PM
On a nursery collection today, the little girl I look after went to play by a Wendy house by the entrance, she came back with blood on her hand, she had cut two fingers. When I went over to have a look where she had done it, behind the house is a playtable and on there was two large pieces of broken glass from a window higher up! Area was not closed off or any warning put up for parents either. When I saw the staff I informed them and they said they were aware and had bought the nursery kids in, I asked for an accident form and was told quite rudely that if I was making a claim then the school isn't liable. I said I just needed it for my records too. Apparently all non school children has to be in the careers or parent charge and not play with the toys! It wasn't a climbing frame or anything just a little Wendy house frame. surely the glass should have been removed and the area made safe or to have notified us about it. Where do I go from here. Have filled in all the accident forms etc, but the school are saying it was my fault. any advice anyone? Thanks

How is it your fault when the Wendy house is on their property and they knew about it but didn't make it safe? It sounds like they are trying to cover themselves. If you have filled in your accident form then I'm not sure what else you need to do, unless you wish to take this further with nursery.

singingcactus
23-04-2013, 05:46 PM
If she was a nursery child, in the nurserys care then it would have been the responsibility of the nursery. If she was a child visiting the nursery with a childminder and in the childminders care, then it would have been the responsibilty of the childminder. Whoever the child was in the care of should have visually checked the area they were allowing the child to play in for risks and hazards themselves. If the nursery had removed their charges from the area of the hazard, then they have fulfilled their obligation.

mama2three
23-04-2013, 05:50 PM
If she was a nursery child, in the nurserys care then it would have been the responsibility of the nursery. If she was a child visiting the nursery with a childminder and in the childminders care, then it would have been the responsibilty of the childminder. Whoever the child was in the care of should have visually checked the area they were allowing the child to play in for risks and hazards themselves. If the nursery had removed their charges from the area of the hazard, then they have fulfilled their obligation.

In the main I agree with this , but there is still a public liability issue surely. If the nursery are aware of a 'risk' where members of the public have access they should surely remove it? If an adult slipped and fell on the glass for example. I do wholly agree though that the cm holds the responsibility for the child.

Rick
23-04-2013, 05:52 PM
If she was a nursery child, in the nurserys care then it would have been the responsibility of the nursery. If she was a child visiting the nursery with a childminder and in the childminders care, then it would have been the responsibilty of the childminder. Whoever the child was in the care of should have visually checked the area they were allowing the child to play in for risks and hazards themselves. If the nursery had removed their charges from the area of the hazard, then they have fulfilled their obligation.

Does the nursery not have a duty of care to inform anyone of the danger. If a visiting child could injure themselves then so could a child attending the nursery when they leave (albeit technically no longer in their care)

karensmart4
23-04-2013, 05:55 PM
If she was a nursery child, in the nurserys care then it would have been the responsibility of the nursery. If she was a child visiting the nursery with a childminder and in the childminders care, then it would have been the responsibilty of the childminder. Whoever the child was in the care of should have visually checked the area they were allowing the child to play in for risks and hazards themselves. If the nursery had removed their charges from the area of the hazard, then they have fulfilled their obligation.

I agree with this but either way, if they said they knew about the glass they should of removed it and thoroughly cleaned the area or at least had someone there to warn about the danger until someone came along and cleared it!

singingcactus
23-04-2013, 06:01 PM
Without a doubt the glass should have been removed immediately, I mean, who in their right mind wouldn't?
But the question was about ultimate responsibilty of the injured child, not responsibilty of the hazard. As minders we cannot, or should not, assume that every other practitioner operates to our standards. We should check everything ourselves, no matter how tiresome.

Ripeberry
23-04-2013, 06:02 PM
They know they were in the wrong. The glass should have been cleared up anyway and the area made safe or out of bounds. They are passing on the blame. :mad:

phoenix2010
23-04-2013, 06:14 PM
If they had brought the nursery kids in because the area was unsafe , then how come your charge was allowed to go into that area , it should have been made clear that your charge was not to go there , by closing it off and putting a sign up

You arrived unaware of the danger and it was their responsibility to make visitors aware

It seems to me that they feel that once a parent or carer arrives they are no longer responsible for the welfare of the child , simply not true , and they should know that

CM59
23-04-2013, 06:29 PM
If she was a nursery child, in the nurserys care then it would have been the responsibility of the nursery. If she was a child visiting the nursery with a childminder and in the childminders care, then it would have been the responsibilty of the childminder. Whoever the child was in the care of should have visually checked the area they were allowing the child to play in for risks and hazards themselves. If the nursery had removed their charges from the area of the hazard, then they have fulfilled their obligation.

Thanks for the post. But surely the nursery should have made the area safe by putting a notice warning parents or cordoning the area off. They knew that parents with young children were arriving on the premises? If there was nothing to warn people of broken glass and it was a Wendy house frame that was there that the other little ones had played with earlier then it would be safe?

rickysmiths
23-04-2013, 06:30 PM
If they had brought the nursery kids in because the area was unsafe , then how come your charge was allowed to go into that area , it should have been made clear that your charge was not to go there , by closing it off and putting a sign up

You arrived unaware of the danger and it was their responsibility to make visitors aware

It seems to me that they feel that once a parent or carer arrives they are no longer responsible for the welfare of the child , simply not true , and they should know that

I disagree with this. I think it is absolutely the responsibility of the childminder or the parents collecting to ensure the safety of the children in their care and this includes keeping them by their side and not letting the run around or explore Nursery equipment. It drives me up the wall when this happens at Pre School, Nursery and School Pick up. There are children roaring around and the carers can not see them, don't take any notice and it is wrong. There is nothing wrong in them learning how to stand still and wait for a few minutes quietly.

Maybe the glass was left there so the maintenance people could see what had happened, the Nursery keep the children safe by removing them from the area. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nursery Manager asks for a copy of your Accident Report so they can keep it on the child's record so it shows they were not responsible for the accident.

CM59
23-04-2013, 06:40 PM
I disagree with this. I think it is absolutely the responsibility of the childminder or the parents collecting to ensure the safety of the children in their care and this includes keeping them by their side and not letting the run around or explore Nursery equipment. It drives me up the wall when this happens at Pre School, Nursery and School Pick up. There are children roaring around and the carers can not see them, don't take any notice and it is wrong. There is nothing wrong in them learning how to stand still and wait for a few minutes quietly.

Maybe the glass was left there so the maintenance people could see what had happened, the Nursery keep the children safe by removing them from the area. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nursery Manager asks for a copy of your Accident Report so they can keep it on the child's record so it shows they were not responsible for the accident.

Thank you for your reply. There were no children running around. The little girl was on her own playing quietly opening the windows playing peep po. The fact remains that they had placed the house in front of the table with the glass on it and it was well hidden. I am not denying any responsibility at all, Im just stating that the nursery was aware of this and didn't clear it away or notify any of us. There are no signs to say that non school children shouldn't play on the toys etc either. she plays with this Wendy house frame every time we have to go there.

MessybutHappy
23-04-2013, 06:47 PM
Sorry, but it's the cm's responsibility to keep the child safe, and so I would have filled in my own accident form and copied it to the nursery for information. I'd have been pretty cross though as I do think that as they knew about it the nursery staff should have either cleared the glass away or put up a notice, but we have no idea of timeframes here, and it may have happened two minutes before home time. That is something for the nursery to reflect on. It sounds like their customer service needs improving too! How rude they sound!

CM59
23-04-2013, 06:53 PM
Sorry, but it's the cm's responsibility to keep the child safe, and so I would have filled in my own accident form and copied it to the nursery for information. I'd have been pretty cross though as I do think that as they knew about it the nursery staff should have either cleared the glass away or put up a notice, but we have no idea of timeframes here, and it may have happened two minutes before home time. That is something for the nursery to reflect on. It sounds like their customer service needs improving too! How rude they sound!

I have filled my own form in, two pages of it. but the form that I had received from the school is linked to the local council and they will have to investigate it. I wished that I had taken photos of the glass, but Chloe's well being was more important at the time. Yes she was very rude and when I asked if I needed her name she said definately not as she was not there when it happened!

Mouse
23-04-2013, 07:01 PM
You need to phone your insurance company if you want a legal answer. I would have thought the nursery has a responsibility to protect any person who visits their premises, whether it is a child or adult. What if there was broken glass on the ground, nursery knew about it, but didn't move it, then an adult trod on it and was injured? The nursery would be responsible, not the adult who was unaware of the danger. I would guess that from a legal point of view the nursery could be held responsible for an injury to anyone on their premises.

But from a childminding point of view, we should risk assess every place we take children and shouldn't let them run off without checking it out. A nursery play area is not a communal playground, although many parents & carers seem to treat it like that when they're collecting other children.

It might be the case that the nursery & the cm are both deemed to be at fault.

phoenix2010
23-04-2013, 07:03 PM
I disagree with this. I think it is absolutely the responsibility of the childminder or the parents collecting to ensure the safety of the children in their care and this includes keeping them by their side and not letting the run around or explore Nursery equipment. It drives me up the wall when this happens at Pre School, Nursery and School Pick up. There are children roaring around and the carers can not see them, don't take any notice and it is wrong. There is nothing wrong in them learning how to stand still and wait for a few minutes quietly.

Maybe the glass was left there so the maintenance people could see what had happened, the Nursery keep the children safe by removing them from the area. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nursery Manager asks for a copy of your Accident Report so they can keep it on the child's record so it shows they were not responsible for the accident.

You are assuming that children were running amok and that this minder wasnt watching her mindee

the simple fact is , glass was left lying around and the area was accessible , so its the nurseries fault.

When I collect children from nursery , sometimes I chat with staff and children continue to play , I would not expect there to be glass lying around

CM59
23-04-2013, 07:09 PM
I just wanted to mention that the little girl in question isn't with the nursery she was with me to pick up another child from nursery. sorry if there was any confusion. thank you.

CM59
23-04-2013, 07:13 PM
You are assuming that children were running amok and that this minder wasnt watching her mindee

the simple fact is , glass was left lying around and the area was accessible , so its the nurseries fault.

When I collect children from nursery , sometimes I chat with staff and children continue to play , I would not expect there to be glass lying around

Thanks for your reply. The area that we were waiting is very small and the fact that no one could see the glass speaks for itself. I was quietly chatting to a friend and Chloe was in my sight all the time. As I said in my earlier post we were playing peep po though the window shutters.

supermumy
23-04-2013, 07:18 PM
I can see both sides to this

It is fault with the cm has the child is in her care and as the teacher said she wasn't their when it happened so using her name is pointless??
But at same time school should of cleaned his up as soon as reported BUT you have stated the glass was on a table and the playhouse put infront of it?

Wheelybug
23-04-2013, 07:27 PM
I disagree with this. I think it is absolutely the responsibility of the childminder or the parents collecting to ensure the safety of the children in their care and this includes keeping them by their side and not letting the run around or explore Nursery equipment. It drives me up the wall when this happens at Pre School, Nursery and School Pick up. There are children roaring around and the carers can not see them, don't take any notice and it is wrong. There is nothing wrong in them learning how to stand still and wait for a few minutes quietly.

Maybe the glass was left there so the maintenance people could see what had happened, the Nursery keep the children safe by removing them from the area. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nursery Manager asks for a copy of your Accident Report so they can keep it on the child's record so it shows they were not responsible for the accident.

I try to consider the school run from the perspective of my mindees and look for opportunities to support and extend their learning. I feel if I made them stand by me, they are going to learn that the school run is very boring but not a lot else. Yes I let my mindees explore in the enclosed area, but that doesn't mean I am not watching them, they may pick up play equipment that is lying around, but once they have looked at it they are encouraged to put it back. They learn that they can explore, but have to do so within the boundaries I set (not going to far / not going by the windows to disrupt the children etc)

If the wendy house was in an area where it can be accessed by children, there should have at least been a sign up to warn parents or the area fenced off. I feel it is a pretty poor show for a nursery to only protect the children that are in their care at that time. I can just image parents responses if I left broken glass lying around in my front garden and turned round to them and said, sorry on the way in and out they are your responsiblity!
Cathy

Helen79
23-04-2013, 08:43 PM
I'm quite shocked that people think this isn't the nurseries fault. When we go to the local park, I risk assess and check around for broken glass because teenagers drink there on an evening. I would never think to go into a nursery and have to risk assess it myself unless we were staying for a playgroup, I certainly wouldn't expect to find panes of broken glass left lying around in a nursery play area :panic:
I agree that cm'ers need to take responsibility and make sure the children are safe but I'm assuming that the op was standing close to mindee watching her play in what she assumed should have been a safe area with no glass.

Our nursery is happy for children to play on the park equipment when they leave so I'm wouldn't have thought that the op was doing anything wrong by letting mindee play. All nurseries have their own rules though.

nikki thomson
23-04-2013, 09:27 PM
Is it me?!!!!, who would leave broken glass lying around when they were made aware of it, it should of been cleared away straight away.
When my dd was at play school the lo I looked after use to play with the toys in the garden while we were waiting, I was watching her but if she'd gone behind a playhouse it isn't reasonable to know there was broken glass there, yes we have to risk assess but come on now let's have abit of common sense here. X

jackie 7
23-04-2013, 09:41 PM
Duty of care. We all have responsibility to protect children. The nursery was aware of the glass and did nothing to prevent anyone from accessing the Wendy house. If it was in a public area I would be checking it but it was on private property. Talk to manager of nursery.

CM59
23-04-2013, 09:44 PM
I can see both sides to this

It is fault with the cm has the child is in her care and as the teacher said she wasn't their when it happened so using her name is pointless??
But at same time school should of cleaned his up as soon as reported BUT you have stated the glass was on a table and the playhouse put infront of it?

The table is always behind the Wendy house, so there was nothing different at all. At the very least there should have been a notice put up to state about the glass. At the end of the day I cannot see through a plastic partition to notice glass. I only asked if I needed the name of the teacher to whom I needed to give the form too and had notified me of the schools position, nothing else!.

kellib
23-04-2013, 09:52 PM
You can't risk assess every little thing every place you go, you'd do nothing else! Think some people are getting a bit carried away here!

It's a nursery, not a crack den, I'd expect a nursery to be child proof!

Hatchlings
23-04-2013, 09:53 PM
I hope the childs cuts were not to deep & it didnt scare of playing there. I had a simular my own child was with me on a collection from school one day
( she was only 3 yrs & when she was at nursery just mornings anyway) When she tripped on a step near a class room were an experanment had just been done she landed on a peice of gazes from a bunson burner & it cut her arm anyway the school said it was her fault for not looking & mine for letting her trip they refused a accident form as well, I asked if i had done it would i have been able file 1 they said would depend on the injurys basically what i am saying is seems unless you are a student in school hours or staff working its your fault so sorry hun.

But i hope she is ok. :rolleyes:

CM59
23-04-2013, 10:10 PM
I hope the childs cuts were not to deep & it didnt scare of playing there. I had a simular my own child was with me on a collection from school one day
( she was only 3 yrs & when she was at nursery just mornings anyway) When she tripped on a step near a class room were an experanment had just been done she landed on a peice of gazes from a bunson burner & it cut her arm anyway the school said it was her fault for not looking & mine for letting her trip they refused a accident form as well, I asked if i had done it would i have been able file 1 they said would depend on the injurys basically what i am saying is seems unless you are a student in school hours or staff working its your fault so sorry hun.

But i hope she is ok. :rolleyes:

Thank you H. Yes luckily the cuts weren't too deep. We are going to keep an eye on them and hopefully it will just be a plaster job.

MiniKins
23-04-2013, 10:13 PM
The underlying duty of care lies with the nursery for several reasons:

The Occupiers' Liability Act requires:


'The occupier will owe a duty of care to these people if he is aware, or has reasonable grounds to know, of a danger on the premises and that a person may be in the vicinity of the danger and the risk is a real one against which he may reasonably be expected to offer some protection'.

Furthermore, there was no warning sign and the injured party was a child:


…occupiers must 'be prepared for children to be less careful than adults' ~ a warning notice, for example, would normally be good enough to alert adults to a potential danger, but not to alert children.

And (crazily at a nursery knowing there would in all probability be child visitors) the fact that it was near a wendy house which all reasonable persons would see as an enticement to the child (an 'allurement').

This responsibility even extends somewhat to trespassers on a premises.

The test would be to see if the nursery took 'such care as in all the circumstances of the case is reasonable to see that the visitor will be reasonably safe in using the premises for the purposes for which he is invited or permitted by the occupier to be there'. ~ from what I read I don't think they did.

So I would suggest the responsibilities of the childminder are (although extremely important) secondary.

george
24-04-2013, 05:56 AM
I think I would write them a letter signed from both yourself & the childs parents saying something like:
Following the accident on your properly at approx time yesterday date, I (your name-role) cleaned up ....... cuts fortuntely with my first aid kit with me at that time whilst also immediately informing a member of your staff of the accident. I (name -rolę) are very disapointed that the staff member I spoke to did not show any care or concern for the injured child and was more defensive in speaking to myself in an unprofessional way to quickly make me aware this accident was infact my fault then any responsibility of the the nursery and stated they would not complete an accident form as they stated it was not the nurserys fault. I certainly was not interested at that time who was to blame as my main concern was for ..... and also ensuring your nursery where immediately aware of this accident so appropriate measures could be put in place to prevent anyone else been hurt. I was saddened to learn the nursery where aware broken glass was on the table out of view behind the wendy house and had not immediately cleaned this up or put a notice up informing people. Yes as a registered childminder it is my responsibilty to ensure i visually risk assess areas i and the children attend, i did this upon arrival & I so nothing out of place. I have never been made aware children cannot sit in the wendy house. Following reflection of this accident after completing my accident form and informing ..... Parents we are now consisering taking advice from both ofsted and my insurance company as we want to ensure my actions where the correct ones to take and have clarification on the role of your staff within such a situation. We are very saddended that your staff member seemed more concerned that this was what I was going to do then show any concern for .... Immediately following her accident and no first aid was offered to help her. However as I stated above we are more interested in ensuring the safety of all rather than looking for a claim so we would first appreciate a written response from yourselfs before we decide if we do need to obtain this further advice,
Sincerely yours

Tazmin68
24-04-2013, 06:15 AM
I thing that letter is brill and covers all areas well done.

winstonian
24-04-2013, 06:30 AM
I let my little charges play in a playhouse outside my daughters class. They are often 10 or 15 minutes late, I stand right by the house and make sure the shutters stay open so that I can see, they certainly do not run amok!
I'm afraid that I also feel the nursery are at fault in this and I think the staff member was rude! I like the above letter.

FussyElmo
24-04-2013, 06:39 AM
Our school constantly tell us that the only children who should use the play equipment is the age appropriate schook children so no younger siblings etc. It gets ignored though.

Whose fault is it would it be wrong just to say it was an accident but if you want to point the finger then it was both the nursey and the cm. The nursery for leaving the glass for whatever reason. The childminder for not noticing the child was picking up glass. Again it was unfortunate that the cm thought the area would be safe.

I wouldn't be making an complaint I would be asking that in future they would make sure any warning signs would be put up.

george
24-04-2013, 07:08 AM
Regardless of fault i think its more upsetting that a member of nursery staff responded in this way showing no concern for the child at all.
I def would send the letter i posted previously to make this clear and show i had done all i could under the circumstances i maybe would also add following evaluation of this accident i will ensure future children in my care will not access this playhouse. I would def still ring ofsted and my insurance company regardless of the nurserys response keeping a record of the date/time who i spoke to and what was said and make records of verbal responses from the nursery and also their written response. I would keeo all these records to.show i did everything i could during and after the accident to safeguard the child in my care, and other people incase a case is ever brought in the future

FussyElmo
24-04-2013, 07:21 AM
Regardless of fault i think its more upsetting that a member of nursery staff responded in this way showing no concern for the child at all.
I def would send the letter i posted previously to make this clear and show i had done all i could under the circumstances i maybe would also add following evaluation of this accident i will ensure future children in my care will not access this playhouse. I would def still ring ofsted and my insurance company regardless of the nurserys response keeping a record of the date/time who i spoke to and what was said and make records of verbal responses from the nursery and also their written response. I would keeo all these records to.show i did everything i could during and after the accident to safeguard the child in my care, and other people incase a case is ever brought in the future

Thats the problem the cm stated the table was behind the wendy house and she couldnt see through plastic to see the glass. So not everything was done to safeguard the child in the care of the cm. The area was assumed to be safe it wasnt exactly checked.

I would not be making a complaint that I could end up coming out of looking bad regardless of how grotty the staffs attitude was

MiniKins
24-04-2013, 08:16 AM
The underlying duty of care lies with the nursery for several reasons:

The Occupiers' Liability Act requires:


'The occupier will owe a duty of care to these people if he is aware, or has reasonable grounds to know, of a danger on the premises and that a person may be in the vicinity of the danger and the risk is a real one against which he may reasonably be expected to offer some protection'.

Furthermore, there was no warning sign and the injured party was a child:


…occupiers must 'be prepared for children to be less careful than adults' ~ a warning notice, for example, would normally be good enough to alert adults to a potential danger, but not to alert children.

And (crazily at a nursery knowing there would in all probability be child visitors) the fact that it was near a wendy house which all reasonable persons would see as an enticement to the child (an 'allurement').

This responsibility even extends somewhat to trespassers on a premises.

The test would be to see if the nursery took 'such care as in all the circumstances of the case is reasonable to see that the visitor will be reasonably safe in using the premises for the purposes for which he is invited or permitted by the occupier to be there'. ~ from what I read I don't think they did.

So I would suggest the responsibilities of the childminder are (although extremely important) secondary.

The point is the nursery (not the childminder) were aware of the specific danger and did not take the correct and appropriate steps to minimise it.

But, regardless of who is responsible, I'm sure the nursery owner (for his/her own protection) would thank you for bringing the matter (perhaps discreetly) to his/her attention.

If I were the nursery owner, for the future safety (and legal protection) of all concerned would definitely want call a meeting with my manager and other staff to review their responsibilities and discuss the correct action that should have been taken here ~ maybe they are lax in other areas too ~ or at the very least to question the behaviour of the member of staff you spoke to.

This is an example of a failed procedure.

How would we all feel if the accident had been far more serious?…or no action taken and a second child injured subsequently?

ziggy
24-04-2013, 08:28 AM
I think the childminder is responsible for keeping the child safe BUT the nursery must be at fault here.

Surely they should have put up a sign or made adults aware of broken glass

Ripeberry
24-04-2013, 08:43 AM
But the biggest thing in all of this is WHY leave broken glass lying around? Don't they know how to dispose of it? Were they more concerned about their staff being hurt than the children? :mad:

Helen79
24-04-2013, 08:45 AM
if I did some diy at the weekend I left some broken glass in my front garden hidden behind the playhouse and a sibling of a mindee cut themselves while playing, even though I'd asked them not to because the toys are for the younger children and they weren't insured etc, then it would absolutely be my fault for not keeping the area safe for everyone who is on the property and I would expect ofsted to turn up any time after a complaint made about safeguard

rickysmiths
24-04-2013, 09:14 AM
Thank you for your reply. There were no children running around. The little girl was on her own playing quietly opening the windows playing peep po. The fact remains that they had placed the house in front of the table with the glass on it and it was well hidden. I am not denying any responsibility at all, Im just stating that the nursery was aware of this and didn't clear it away or notify any of us. There are no signs to say that non school children shouldn't play on the toys etc either. she plays with this Wendy house frame every time we have to go there.

Just because they toys are not labelled that they should not be played with doesn't mean they shouldn't be. Nor does the fact that this child does it time make it right.

Lets put it a different way. A parent collects their child from me. The door my parents come to is at the side of the house and in the area where my sand table is and all my rockers and ride ons. She brings older sibling with her and said sibling starts to climb into the coupe car which she is too big for and the parent ignores the child and lets them carry on. As far as I am concerned that is wrong, the child should stay with the parent quietly while their sibling is being collected and while I pass on any information to the parent. If the older child hurts themselves then that is entirely down to the parent who should have RA for their own child who has not ever been in my care. If the parent doesn't then they are taking the risk, not me. It is not up to me to keep this child in check. However I do make it clear to all new parents what the score is with regard to any children they may bring with them at delivery or collection times and I manage it without loads of warning signs up as well.

rickysmiths
24-04-2013, 09:21 AM
I try to consider the school run from the perspective of my mindees and look for opportunities to support and extend their learning. I feel if I made them stand by me, they are going to learn that the school run is very boring but not a lot else. Yes I let my mindees explore in the enclosed area, but that doesn't mean I am not watching them, they may pick up play equipment that is lying around, but once they have looked at it they are encouraged to put it back. They learn that they can explore, but have to do so within the boundaries I set (not going to far / not going by the windows to disrupt the children etc)

If the wendy house was in an area where it can be accessed by children, there should have at least been a sign up to warn parents or the area fenced off. I feel it is a pretty poor show for a nursery to only protect the children that are in their care at that time. I can just image parents responses if I left broken glass lying around in my front garden and turned round to them and said, sorry on the way in and out they are your responsiblity!
Cathy

I disagree. The school run does not have to be boring because you teach the children in your care not to play with things that it is not appropriate for them to play with. To my mind it is not appropriate to allow children in your care to play with school, Nursery or Pre School equipment while you are waiting to collect a child. What happened to having a conversation with them? Mine all stay by my side, the younger ones hold onto my hand or the buggy and or have reins on. They are taught not to play with things. There is a time and a place for everything and even young children have to learn boundries and there is no harm in that at all. I wish a few more were taught them!

rickysmiths
24-04-2013, 09:25 AM
You can't risk assess every little thing every place you go, you'd do nothing else! Think some people are getting a bit carried away here!

It's a nursery, not a crack den, I'd expect a nursery to be child proof!

But we are obliged under EYFS to RA wherever we go.

rickysmiths
24-04-2013, 09:30 AM
But the biggest thing in all of this is WHY leave broken glass lying around? Don't they know how to dispose of it? Were they more concerned about their staff being hurt than the children? :mad:

They were aware it was there and took their children inside away from the danger. Maybe they did not have enough staff for one of them to leave and clear the glass away? Maybe they planned to do it when all the children were out of the way?

What would you do in a similar situation in your play area out of interest?

supermumy
24-04-2013, 09:47 AM
I agree the school was aware of the glass and bring there kids inside.
Maybe the care taker was on a different job Or not around and only retakera can deal with this for health and safety reasons.
No one has stated times of when this was found etc so really we are all assuming

I would complain about maybe the lack of warning but other than that it really was just accident and just got to be glad the mindee wasn't more hurt

Sarsar3NCH
24-04-2013, 10:04 AM
I agree Helen79, that's what I was thinking too

MiniKins
24-04-2013, 10:26 AM
if I did some diy at the weekend I left some broken glass in my front garden hidden behind the playhouse and a sibling of a mindee cut themselves while playing, even though I'd asked them not to because the toys are for the younger children and they weren't insured etc, then it would absolutely be my fault for not keeping the area safe for everyone who is on the property and I would expect ofsted to turn up any time after a complaint made about safeguard

Spot on Helen

Putting aside our sensible duties as minders to RA each situation on our behalf, the law states that the property owner/occupier is accountable for hazards on the premises, and they must make it safe of any known dangers.

This is a primary responsibility for the nursery, it happened on their premises which they are duty bound in law to make safe…and they must take into account that they may be visited by an unruly or even an unattended, trespassing child who cannot read a sign.

By the same token, if we as CMs are aware (or even reasonably should be aware) of a hazard on our property (including our front garden and pathway) it is us who are responsible and we must take into account that not all parents control their kids (including any not cared for by us). Anyone who doesn't can expect a letter from the solicitor of an injured child's parent.

Of course I know what is sensible and reasonable behaviour to expect, but the law is different and specific in this case.

(Sorry to 'bang on' about this but I severely cut myself on glass as a child and this is a bit of a bugbear of mine)

Mouse
24-04-2013, 10:34 AM
Of course I know what is sensible and reasonable behaviour to expect, but the law is different and specific in this case.



I think that's the key to this. There is a big difference in how we might view something (that parents/carers should be responsible for any children in their care) and how it is viewed legally (that the nursery has a duty to ensure the safety of everyone on their premises).

It would be interesting to see what the OPs insurance company, and indeed the nursery's insurance company, had to say about it.

ChocolateChip
24-04-2013, 12:08 PM
I hope that the little girl is ok, and that for the op's sake this does not come down to agreeing the finer points of law in a legal battle. :(
Yes, of course we are all responsible and need to ra wherever we take the children, but really- broken glass knowingly left lying around?????? I don't care if it had only happened 5 seconds before people arrived to collect, SOMETHING should have been done about it, even if it was somebody stood there saying 'be careful'. If they don't have the staff to spare to clean it up because of ratios then they should have a procedure in place to at least put out a warning sign. If the school didn't know about it then maybe that would have been all down to the cm to make sure the area was safe to use but they knew about the hazard and did nothing about it.
If it was me I would be writing to the head/ manager, not to complain but highlighting my concerns re their health and safety procedures, if only to prevent this happening again.

BuggsieMoo
24-04-2013, 12:18 PM
Im in 2 minds on this one.

1) The nursery knew of the immediate danger and did nothing to pre-warn others. A simple sign that stated there was broken glass would have allowed the CM a heads up and could have avoided the whole situation.
2) The CM should have RA for herself as per the EYFS - but lets be honest now do we all RA every day on the school/nursery run. No I doubt we all do. We all assume that as they are in the same line of work as us, they would ensure that their premises were safe and fit for purpose.

I know at my DD's school the children (who are not part of the school) are welcomed to play with the equipment there but there is a big sign that states the children are at all times the responsibility of their careers not the school and therefore the school takes no responsibility for any accidents that arise from using the equipment.

I would say that is a 50:50 on 'blame' but im more concerned about the rudeness of a member of staff and I would be raising this together with inadequate signage (if there is none to state do not use the equipment then surely the nursery is accepting responsibility for accidents on their premises).

CM59
24-04-2013, 02:11 PM
Just an update on yesterday.

I rang my Quality support officer and informed her what had happened, she was appalled. She advised me to contact OFSTED as broken glass lying about was a serious matter. OFSTED was informed but couldn't intervene and the school is under the Dept of Education. I have filled in all the relevant forms, handed the one back to the school with Im glad to add a witness' name and address added, who also heard how rude the staff member was! She read my report and agreed with it. The Parents of the little girl are satisfied with how I dealt with the matter and will write to the school themselves anyway highlighting the safety issues. Upon talking to a couple of schools this morning, they all stated the glass should have been removed immediately regardless of when it happened and either a sign should have been displayed, the area closed off or a member of staff should have informed us verbally of the situation. The most important thing is that the little one is ok and showed her Aunty (me) her special plaster in her finger. I hope the school will learn from this, AS have I not to assume in future these things are automatically safe! I hope the matter will be finished and will have no nasty comeback.

Thanks for all your posts, some I agreed with and others not, but that what makes a good forum, which this is. They were much appreciated.

CM59
24-04-2013, 02:19 PM
[QUOTE=FussyElmo;1242538]Our school constantly tell us that the only children who should use the play equipment is the age appropriate schook children so no younger siblings etc. It gets ignored though.

Whose fault is it would it be wrong just to say it was an accident but if you want to point the finger then it was both the nursey and the cm. The nursery for leaving the glass for whatever reason. The childminder for not noticing the child was picking up glass. Again it was unfortunate that the cm thought the area would be safe.

I wouldn't be making an complaint I would be asking that in future they would make sure any warning signs would be put

Thanks for the post FE, she didn't pick any glass up but caught herself on the sharp jagged edges overlapping the table.

Helen79
24-04-2013, 02:54 PM
OFSTED was informed but couldn't intervene and the school is under the Dept of Education

If it was an early years nursery then ofsted should be the regulatory body not the dept of education, even if the nursery is attached to the school.

winstonian
24-04-2013, 06:15 PM
Thanks for all your posts, some I agreed with and others not, but that what makes a good forum, which this is. They were much appreciated.[/QUOTE]

I agree, made a very interesting debate - so glad little one is ok and you are feeling better x