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mummyMia
17-02-2013, 05:45 PM
I have been following the recent thread about childminders becoming employed, and I thought I would share some information about how a similar system operates in Finland. Apologies in advance for the long post :)

In Finland, there are two types of childminders. Some are self-employed, while others are employed by local councils. Childminders can choose which route they want to take, but they can't do both at the same time. Parents can also choose which type of childminder they want to use. Self-employed childminders work much the same way as we do in the UK. Everything that I have written below applies to the council employed childminders.

Ratios:
Childminders can look after a maximum of 4 children below school age plus one additional preschool or school aged child. Children go to preschool at age 6 and school at age 7. A childminder's own children count in the numbers until they start school at age 7.

Fees:
The council sets standard childcare fees and these are based on the parents income, with lower income families paying less. The parents pay the council not the childminder. The council then employs the childminders and pays them a wage. Childcare is heavily subsidised and the council partially funds the wages themselves.

Placing children:
Each council operates slightly differently, but in general they make all the decision about placing children, and the childminders have little say. Childminders are allowed to express a preference over the ages of the children and the hours that they are willing to work, but there is no guarantee that these will be adhered to. It doesn't seem to be possible for a childminder to turn down a child because they don't 'gel'. It also seems that childminders are obliged to take on as many children as they have places available. They can't choose to look after fewer children. If a childminder has an empty space, they may also be sent adhoc children, for example if another childminder is on holiday or ill.

Salary:
There are minimum wage laws that are specific to childminders. Some councils pay the minimum amounts while others pay a little more. The statutory minimum wage is 371,41€ (£320) a month per full time child. Fully qualified childminders get a top up of £16 per month per child. The rates for part time children are less. These are gross rates and the childminder is taxed like any other employee. The salary for a childminder with 4 full time children is less than nursery workers and in line with cleaners and factory workers.

In many councils, the childminder in only paid for the number of children that they actually have. So if a childminder has 4 places available but the council is only able to place 3 children, the childminder only gets paid for 3. There are a few councils that guarantee payment for all available places, even if they have not been filled, but these seem to be few and far between. The childminders are not allowed to advertise for children themselves, so if the council has not filled all their places there is they can do to increase income.

Expenses:
In addition to the salary, the council pays a flat rate of 4.75 € (£4.09) for expenses, per child, per day. This is to cover food, utility bills, wear and tear, toys and resources and craft materials. Childminders are expected to provide breakfast, a cooked lunch and a snack each day. Most childminders say that the allowance barely covers food costs and all other expenses have to come from their own pocket. Some councils lend out buggies, cots and high chairs. Some nurseries also lend out toys. Outings are considered as optional so these expenses are not covered, neither is petrol. In some cases, parents come to a private agreement with the childminder, to contribute towards outings.

Holiday and sick leave:
Childminders are entitled to statutory paid holiday and sick leave. When a childminder is unavailable to work an alternate childcare place is guaranteed to the parents. This can be in a nursery or with another childminder.

Working time directives:
Due to EU working time laws, childminders are not supposed to work more than 40 hours per week, but this can be averaged over a longer period. In practice, most childminders work much longer hours and get additional days off to compensate. It is common for childminders to get an additional week of leave about every 3 month, on top of their statutory holiday entitlement. The council generally decides when this additional leave is taken and most publish a three monthly rota. If the minded children are away on holiday or ill, or the childminders' own children are ill then the childminder can be forced to take these days out of any additional leave that they have accumulated.

I hope this is of some interest :)

Ripeberry
17-02-2013, 06:04 PM
Very interesting. Thanks for posting. I went into CM for freedom to choose my hours. That Finnish system sounds like torture and the worst thing is that its in your own house! At least with going out to work you have the sanctuary of your own home.

Ripeberry
17-02-2013, 06:07 PM
Also the council have too much say in who you have in your house. If that rigjt is taken away then it sucks!

blue bear
17-02-2013, 06:38 PM
Do you know how well independent childminders do in comparison to council ones? do the council ones mean independent ones are affected in getting children, what sorts of rates do they charge in comparison to the council rates, has it driven the hourly rate down?

What happens if the council don't like a childminder can the sack them,can childminders sign on with another agency or become independent in their own right?

SYLVIA
17-02-2013, 07:28 PM
I think that sounds awful! I won't be joining if that's how ours work, I'd rather scrub somebody's bog for £10 an hour!!

welshgirl
17-02-2013, 07:34 PM
That is so depressing.

mum26
17-02-2013, 07:35 PM
It sounds dreadful - I hope the proposals for agencies in this Country gets thrown out.

hectors house
17-02-2013, 07:39 PM
This sounds similar to the system they have in Denmark - but our government has forgotten to take into account that countries like Denmark has 50% tax rate so the government can afford to subsidise childcare heavily.

Also in Denmark the childminders are not allowed to take children in their own cars - they have to walk or go by bus (but of course that is reliable and heavily subsidised to - so affordable). In Denmark most families only have one car as running costs, car tax, car prices are so high so the women often don't get to use a car anyway.

I won't be putting my hand up to join our agencies if this Finish model is what they intend to use.:panic:

Allie
17-02-2013, 07:55 PM
That is so depressing but thanks for posting at least it gives an idea of what they might be thinking of with this agency idea


Allie

zippy
17-02-2013, 08:10 PM
Omg where do I sign up, can't wait - yeah right

If all that's true though, wont be hard to convince them to step over to our side lol

sarah707
17-02-2013, 08:18 PM
Thank you so much for researching and posting.

I am sure it has encouraged a lot of members to write letters and sign the petition! :D

SYLVIA
17-02-2013, 08:21 PM
I'm planning to give a copy of this to parents as I feel if they read the details they will see that if they chose to use a childminder from an agency that the service they will be getting will be very controlled and inconsistent. If I'm working over time for one family and having to take extra holiday because of it, then every family will be having their children looked after by so many different people. Here, if I have holiday or days off, I have a back up minder that parents know
but usually they will make their own arrangements. What's happened to the importance of continuity of care?:panic:

JCrakers
17-02-2013, 09:16 PM
Ugh that sounds absolutely awful. Taking children who I don't gel with is a definite no. I'm straight out if this happens :(

ChocolateChip
18-02-2013, 08:58 AM
Thanks for posting mummyMia, that's really interesting to read. I definitely wouldn't want to work like that, I much prefer the freedom to run my business how it suits me and my families, wouldn't want to be dictated to like that for the sake of a couple of days sick pay- assuming you don't have to take it as holiday!

Christi
18-02-2013, 10:08 AM
Very interesting to read, but sounds awful!

rickysmiths
18-02-2013, 10:47 AM
I have just found this via a Forum espoo.fi > Family Day Care (http://www.espoo.fi/en-US/Childcare_and_education/Day_Care/Family_Day_Care)

mummyMia
18-02-2013, 11:22 AM
Do you know how well independent childminders do in comparison to council ones? do the council ones mean independent ones are affected in getting children, what sorts of rates do they charge in comparison to the council rates, has it driven the hourly rate down?


This is a really difficult question to answer, especially as there is so much regional variation. Council childminders are not new, they have been around for decades so it is also harder to tell what effect they have on prices.

With council childminders, the council determines the fees based on the parents income and as childcare is heavily subsidised these fees are kept low. The self-employed childminders set their own fees, which are much higher, but then parents can claim childcare credits towards these fees. In most areas, the parents end up paying the same or very slightly more for a self-employed childminder than a council one, after all the various subsidies and childcare credits have been taken into account. In some councils the childcare credits available are high and self-employed childminders are able to charge decent rates and get lots of business. In other areas the childcare credits are low and as a result self-employed childminders are forced to charge a lot less in order to compete with the council childminders. What is very clear from all the forums is that most parents are not be willing to pay much more for a self-employed childminder than a council childminder. So the fees that self-employed childminders can charge seem to be quite dependant on the level of fees and childcare credits set by each council.

In term of actual earnings, lets assume that a council childminder gets the statutory minimum wage of £320 per month for a child, plus £4.09/day for expenses. That makes a minimum income of £410 per month per child. Some councils pay more than the statutory rates. Self-employed rates vary, but many charge in the region of £430-£650 per child per month. The self-employed childminder will have more expenses because they have to pay for insurance, advertising, training, etc. Also, they don't normally get paid holidays, sick leave or pension contributions.

Sorry, it is all very complicated and hard to give a straight answer!!!

mummyMia
18-02-2013, 11:25 AM
I'm planning to give a copy of this to parents as I feel if they read the details they will see that if they chose to use a childminder from an agency that the service they will be getting will be very controlled and inconsistent. If I'm working over time for one family and having to take extra holiday because of it, then every family will be having their children looked after by so many different people. Here, if I have holiday or days off, I have a back up minder that parents know
but usually they will make their own arrangements. What's happened to the importance of continuity of care?:panic:

It may be worth telling them that under the Finnish model, the parents can't choose the council childminder, one is just assigned to them. They can express some preferences, but like our school place applications in the UK, there are no guarantees about what you will end up with. :panic:

mummyMia
18-02-2013, 11:28 AM
Also in Denmark the childminders are not allowed to take children in their own cars - they have to walk or go by bus (but of course that is reliable and heavily subsidised to - so affordable). In Denmark most families only have one car as running costs, car tax, car prices are so high so the women often don't get to use a car anyway.



Yes, in Finland some councils also forbid council childminders from using a car, but it varies on area. Like Denmark, the public transportation system is much better but imagine taking four toddlers/babies on a bus! I can barely manage with 3!!

mummyMia
18-02-2013, 11:35 AM
What happens if the council don't like a childminder can the sack them,can childminders sign on with another agency or become independent in their own right?

Employement laws in Finland are very strict and I doubt that a childminder would be fired just because the council didn't like them. Maybe if there were some serious complaints made. I don't think that there are any agencies other than the councils and obviously a childminder can only sign up with the council that they actually live in. Childminders are free to quit and become self-employed if they want to though:)

phoenix2010
18-02-2013, 11:51 AM
sounds wonderful :D

Im amazed that it does not take into account the personal relationship between minder and parent or minder and child , not all my mindees have been a good fit for me and vice versa

cant think of anything worse than being "given" children and having no say in the matter and what if im employed and the council only send me one child , that is not going to pay my bills !!

I suppose at least they are being given a choice and for a new minder , busy mum who does not know how to advertise or lacks confidence perhaps this is a good idea , but who would want someone so clueless looking after their baby , and 3 others

Stace
18-02-2013, 01:47 PM
Thanks for sharing the info- though sounds horrid!! Well I was wondering about emailing pm re the agencies if this is what they want to do here then I'll be busy doing this tonight I think.

After all I have wanted to be self-employed for so long now, and worked so hard for it same as all of you. I certainly don't want some idiot at an agency telling me who I can and can't look after in my own home. Knowing the pm they would probably realise what a daft idea it is after about a year when all the decent childminders have left and working else where.

Mmm now time for some chocolate lol xxx

Ripeberry
18-02-2013, 01:59 PM
Yes, in Finland some councils also forbid council childminders from using a car, but it varies on area. Like Denmark, the public transportation system is much better but imagine taking four toddlers/babies on a bus! I can barely manage with 3!!

Do the Finnish council just like making life hard?? I don't care if I had the best buses in the world going past my door. If I have a car, I will use a car! What a nightmare!

SYLVIA
18-02-2013, 02:01 PM
Yes I have included that in the letter. Also the part about only having 1 school age child. Although it may not happen here, what will happen if a family has 2 children at school. I have 2 families with one at school and the next one joining in September. I have pointed out that I would only be able to have one so their children would have to be separated or go to school clubs

loocyloo
18-02-2013, 02:46 PM
Yes I have included that in the letter. Also the part about only having 1 school age child. Although it may not happen here, what will happen if a family has 2 children at school. I have 2 families with one at school and the next one joining in September. I have pointed out that I would only be able to have one so their children would have to be separated or go to school clubs

i also have several sets of siblings. madness all round!

mummyMia
18-02-2013, 03:06 PM
Yes I have included that in the letter. Also the part about only having 1 school age child. Although it may not happen here, what will happen if a family has 2 children at school. I have 2 families with one at school and the next one joining in September. I have pointed out that I would only be able to have one so their children would have to be separated or go to school clubs

I'm sure this won't be an issue because these agencies will want to be as profitable as possible so I'm sure the childminders will be forced to look after the maximum number of schoolies allowed under our new UK ratios :(

mummyMia
18-02-2013, 03:59 PM
Do the Finnish council just like making life hard?? I don't care if I had the best buses in the world going past my door. If I have a car, I will use a car! What a nightmare!

A car!!! Why on earth would you need a car when you can have one of these:
6945

(If you can't see the image just google Bakfiets cargo bike;))

Ripeberry
18-02-2013, 04:19 PM
A car!!! Why on earth would you need a car when you can have one of these:
6945

(If you can't see the image just google Bakfiets cargo bike;))

One word................MAD!!!!

Christi
18-02-2013, 08:35 PM
A car!!! Why on earth would you need a car when you can have one of these:
6945

(If you can't see the image just google Bakfiets cargo bike;))

Oh my! :eek: