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LittleLegsCM
15-02-2013, 02:49 PM
Hi all,

Just a follow on from my incident the other day where I terminated a mindees contract with immediate effect. I have not heard a thing from the family since wednesday, literally not a peep, which either could be because of the embarrasment of their sons behaviour OR the calm before the storm so this is literally just my mind working overtime tbh. (Unfortunately, I stupidy do not have an actual fees policy which I now have realised I need and have started putting together!)

I was just about to call tax credits to inform them that this family are no longer on my books (as I honestly think they will not do this themselves and will continue to get as much out of the system as possible) but a thought crossed my mind- because I cut the contract short, all beit because their son kicked me, can they demand fees to be paid back from me?!
This family were over half my monthly income so by terminating Im already pretty stuffed money wise anyway but to then have to pay back the next 2 weeks fees (up until the next invoice wouldve been due) would really mess me up!

My personal opinion is that as I had to terminate the contract to ensure mine and the other childrens safety, this was not my fault and therefore am entitled to keep funds that I have been paid (in the same way that if I child didnt attend due to sickness, this wouldnt be my fault and I would still be paid) - is this wrong??? What would you say/do?

I just want to ensure I am within my rights to keep it before calling Tax Credits and also IF the family actually ever do contact me (even if its to apologise!!) so any advice would be great, thank you x

Tazmin68
15-02-2013, 02:53 PM
Sorry

If it was me I would be refunding monies paid as I have in my contract 4 weeks notice. I have only ever had to end a contract with immediate effect while have the 4 week settling in period and even then I gave a weeks notice.

sarah707
15-02-2013, 02:57 PM
I suggest you contact your legal advice team at either NCMA or MM before doing anything!

Hugs x

LittleLegsCM
15-02-2013, 02:59 PM
Sorry

If it was me I would be refunding monies paid as I have in my contract 4 weeks notice. I have only ever had to end a contract with immediate effect while have the 4 week settling in period and even then I gave a weeks notice.

I have 4 weeks notice in my contract too but thats obviously for 'normal' circumstances not for a 9YO 'assaulting' me so would that not be seen differently?

LittleLegsCM
15-02-2013, 03:16 PM
I also forgot to mention, there was TWO brothers. I have only terminated the contract of the 9YO- they havent brought the other brother the past few days (luckily as I was shot down with noro yesterday anyway!) so technically his contract is still running as it was so I suppose even if they did demand fees, they could only do so for the older brother anyway??

wendywu
15-02-2013, 04:38 PM
I think you will have to refund for the child you no longer care for but not his brother. Of course his contract will still run until she gives you 4 weeks notice on it. So it may all even out in the end :mad:

bunyip
15-02-2013, 06:54 PM
If this were me, I'd refund any payments for the child whose contract I terminated (except of course the days you actually provided care.) I don't see how payment can be retained when there is no contract under which to be paid. :huh:

As for the other child, I'd probably keep the advance payments. This is because a contract is in place, but the parents seem to have chosen not to send the child.

Ultimately, I agree with Sarah: contact your legal team. There ae complications here which may give the parents room to argue with your decision to terminate, or argue that it has become reasonable to keep the 2nd child away (e.g. breakdown of the business relationship.)

I don't understand why the decision to contact HMRC/Tax Credits is affected by what you do with the money. Can you clarify? :confused:

LittleLegsCM
16-02-2013, 02:54 PM
I don't understand why the decision to contact HMRC/Tax Credits is affected by what you do with the money. Can you clarify? :confused:

It doesnt affect what I do with the money but I wanted to be clear on where I stood because they get the full entitlement in childcare tax credits (which Ive never understood how, considering they both work and dads definitely not on anything like a minimum wage! I have suspicions he's not registered as living in their council home & mum is claiming as a single parent but obviously I dont know that for certain) so if I contact TC, they will probably demand funds back from them & they will then finally contact and kick up a stink with me, if that makes sense?!

I spoke to my DO yesterday afternoon and she advised that if she was in my shoes (she was a CM for 20odd years before becoming a DO) she would keep it due to the lose of income that will now arise due to their sons behaviour that wasn't my fault. Didnt get chance to call MM but will do first thing Monday x

bunyip
17-02-2013, 09:09 AM
It doesnt affect what I do with the money but I wanted to be clear on where I stood because they get the full entitlement in childcare tax credits (which Ive never understood how, considering they both work and dads definitely not on anything like a minimum wage! I have suspicions he's not registered as living in their council home & mum is claiming as a single parent but obviously I dont know that for certain) so if I contact TC, they will probably demand funds back from them & they will then finally contact and kick up a stink with me, if that makes sense?!

I spoke to my DO yesterday afternoon and she advised that if she was in my shoes (she was a CM for 20odd years before becoming a DO) she would keep it due to the lose of income that will now arise due to their sons behaviour that wasn't my fault. Didnt get chance to call MM but will do first thing Monday x

That makes sense - thanks. HMRC can't really blame you if a client has been using your reg number to abuse the system. After all, you're not the one who has (allegedly) given false information. HMRC may ask to see your records to verify what the client has claimed, but probably nothing more than that.

I think your DO has a reasonable point. Best check with MM. There are too many instances of CMs getting into a pickle cos their DOs pass 'opinion' off as 'fact'.
:)

VeggieSausage
17-02-2013, 09:23 AM
Sometimes I think you have to use common sense as well as the actual legalness of the situation. You have terminated notice as of immediate effect and don't want the child in your setting (fair enough) due to an extreme incident.....parents dealing with all of that so I would refund the money, it puts them in an impossible situation with regards to their other child so I would return the money for that one too. Sometimes contracts end badly with families but it makes it better if you can be fair and not appear money grabbing to the family (not that I am saying you are but the family may view it as that)....I would write a letter and say that due to the unforseen nature of the termination of the contract you understand their position with their other child adn as you have not heard from them assume the contract is terminated for XXX and here is a refund of all overpaid funds.....

Not being critical just offering another way....

The Juggler
17-02-2013, 10:53 AM
Sometimes I think you have to use common sense as well as the actual legalness of the situation. You have terminated notice as of immediate effect and don't want the child in your setting (fair enough) due to an extreme incident.....parents dealing with all of that so I would refund the money, it puts them in an impossible situation with regards to their other child so I would return the money for that one too. Sometimes contracts end badly with families but it makes it better if you can be fair and not appear money grabbing to the family (not that I am saying you are but the family may view it as that)....I would write a letter and say that due to the unforseen nature of the termination of the contract you understand their position with their other child adn as you have not heard from them assume the contract is terminated for XXX and here is a refund of all overpaid funds.....

Not being critical just offering another way....

i have been in this situation and told parents that no monies were due in respect of the child I terminated for . So, in your situation, legally you need to refund. I then gave them the option with child 2. Told them I was happy if he continued to come but that if they decided not to bring him anymore in the circumstances I also would waive the notice period fee for him. So again, in your situation I would have refunded if that's what they decided.