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View Full Version : Petition to leave our early years ratios alone!



sarah707
27-01-2013, 07:59 PM
This is a big one... children's health, safety and wellbeing is potentially being put at risk... and our business sustainability is being threatened.

The government are about to make an announcement ... we need to pull together and fight!

The first step is to sign the Childminding Forum petition - and to ask nurseries and pre-schools to sign - and to ask parents to sign - and to promote it everywhere :cheerleader:

Please see this thread guys!

http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/forum/deregulation-campaign-information/113678-petition-leave-our-early-years-ratios-alone.html

AND if you can't wait to see it - here is the petition!

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/uk-government-department-for-education-leave-our-early-years-ratios-alone

:D

FussyElmo
28-01-2013, 07:52 AM
Bump

Go on everyone there is 20000+ members on here lets get the government to take notice :thumbsup:

HelenHale
28-01-2013, 09:04 AM
Thank you Sarah, can I also draw everyones attention to this one https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/department-for-education-drop-plans-to-increase-child-to-adult-ratios (https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/department-for-education-drop-plans-t-increase-child-to-adult-ratios) which is basically for the same purpose and now has over 3,500 signatures.

I have signed both :D

Helen x

*daisychain*
28-01-2013, 09:10 AM
Both signed :)

angeldelight
28-01-2013, 09:21 AM
Well done Sarah

Angel xx

tinytots_cb4
28-01-2013, 09:29 AM
To whom it may concern,
I totally disagree with this petition on the grounds that you are discriminating against us childminders who are more than capable of meeting the needs all the children in our care even at higher ratios.
We would sincerely hope that all childminders would have at least the common sense to not increase their ratios if they feel that they are incapable of meeting all the children's needs, as the government and Ofsted are not imposing an increase to ratios but offering the option to capable childminders.
What about the parents who have have than 6 children? are you suggesting we tell them how many children they can actually give birth to!
If you do not wish to increase your numbers then DONT, but please do not indiscriminate against those of us that are able to.

Kind Regards,

Allyson & Colin.
Tiny Tots Childminding Service.]

jelly15
28-01-2013, 10:55 AM
Signed both.

FussyElmo
28-01-2013, 11:35 AM
Bump :thumbsup:

rickysmiths
28-01-2013, 12:08 PM
I'm sorry but I have to say it. I am utterly disappointed to see this. There is already a Petition started for childminders and backed by the PLA and NCMA. Why start another one and dilute the support? Surely at these times we should all be standing together as a united front?

It shouldn't matter what Forum we choose to use, whether we are on Face Book or not, or a member of NCMA PLA or do all our insurance through MM.

We are all Childminders and we are ALL facing the same issues.

Frankly I see it as a bit childish and very sad that we apparently can't, despite our differences, work together as a united front of Childminders.

sharonmanc
28-01-2013, 12:12 PM
I totally agree with Ricky on this, we need just one petition, that shows a united front, and has more weight behind it.

Boris
28-01-2013, 12:48 PM
I'm sorry but I have to say it. I am utterly disappointed to see this. There is already a Petition started for childminders and backed by the PLA and NCMA. Why start another one and dilute the support? Surely at these times we should all be standing together as a united front?

It shouldn't matter what Forum we choose to use, whether we are on Face Book or not, or a member of NCMA PLA or do all our insurance through MM.

We are all Childminders and we are ALL facing the same issues.

Frankly I see it as a bit childish and very sad that we apparently can't, despite our differences, work together as a united front of Childminders.

Couldn't agree more.

AgentTink
28-01-2013, 01:04 PM
I'm sorry but I have to say it. I am utterly disappointed to see this. There is already a Petition started for childminders and backed by the PLA and NCMA. Why start another one and dilute the support? Surely at these times we should all be standing together as a united front?

It shouldn't matter what Forum we choose to use, whether we are on Face Book or not, or a member of NCMA PLA or do all our insurance through MM.

We are all Childminders and we are ALL facing the same issues.

Frankly I see it as a bit childish and very sad that we apparently can't, despite our differences, work together as a united front of Childminders.

Does it really matter though? what has been done is done. What about thanking the people who set up both petitions for their time and dedication to the cause.

I am sure PLA and NCMA would support both petitions because at the end of the day they are for the same thing.

I have signed both and cannot see why everybody who works in childcare cannot do the same, it only takes a minute to do for a issue that is so important. The way i see it better to have lots of petitions that can get to more people than one that does not reach everybody.

Kiddleywinks
28-01-2013, 01:06 PM
I understand the need for a petition, but I'm afraid I agree with Rickysmiths too.

Asking parents, friends and families to sign ANY petition at the moment is hard enough - One parent had 15 requests through her facebook the other week, from saving the whale to getting a child a puppy (Ok I realise these were more 'like this page' but she's sick to death of it, and I can't say as I blame her.)

In her words, you start to ignore ANY requests, and of course then an important one will not be seen and supported.

We really do need to work together here ladies and gents, all for one and one for all ;)

Boris
28-01-2013, 01:09 PM
Does it really matter though? what has been done is done. What about thanking the people who set up both petitions for their time and dedication to the cause.

I am sure PLA and NCMA would support both petitions because at the end of the day they are for the same thing.

I have signed both and cannot see why everybody who works in childcare cannot do the same, it only takes a minute to do for a issue that is so important. The way i see it better to have lots of petitions that can get to more people than one that does not reach everybody.

It does make us look like a bunch of numpty's who can't communicate though, don't you think?

linda2girls
28-01-2013, 01:12 PM
I agree that it's a shame we can't all support 1 petition, I don't see the need for 2. I have already given parents and friends the handouts from the first petition which has over 5,500 signatures.

Why aren't we all working together.

Linda.

AgentTink
28-01-2013, 01:15 PM
It does make us look like a bunch of numpty's who can't communicate though, don't you think?

I disagree i think it shows that people feel strongly about the issue. Considering these changes will effect all early years educators I am really surprised that there isn't more of them from other early year providers.

FussyElmo
28-01-2013, 01:23 PM
It does make us look like a bunch of numpty's who can't communicate though, don't you think?

Why I dont expect teacher, nurses etc to all join the same union so why shouldnt cms have different voices.

The point to this thread is to sign the petition and get others to do so. Not to criticise or compare petitions who wrote them. Doesnt matter if there is 1 with 5000 another with 1000 if a 3rd or 4th shot up would it really matter.

We need as many voices as possible to get our opinions over and the more channels to do so the better, then the message gets out to everyone. A friend on mine who is a deputy manager in a nursery didnt know about any petition till i shared this morning and thats the issue getting the news out to people

Kiddleywinks
28-01-2013, 01:51 PM
The point to this thread is to sign the petition and get others to do so. Not to criticise or compare petitions who wrote them. Doesnt matter if there is 1 with 5000 another with 1000 if a 3rd or 4th shot up would it really matter.

We need as many voices as possible to get our opinions over and the more channels to do so the better, then the message gets out to everyone. A friend on mine who is a deputy manager in a nursery didnt know about any petition till i shared this morning and thats the issue getting the news out to people

I'm not comparing who wrote them, far from it, I don't give a monkeys WHERE it came from, but a petition with a large amount of signatories surely carries more weight than half a dozen different ones with a 1000?
I know if it's a Downing Street petition they don't even look at it unless there are 100,000 signatories - unlikely to happen if there are several on the go iygwim.

Mouse
28-01-2013, 02:06 PM
To whom it may concern,
I totally disagree with this petition on the grounds that you are discriminating against us childminders who are more than capable of meeting the needs all the children in our care even at higher ratios.
We would sincerely hope that all childminders would have at least the common sense to not increase their ratios if they feel that they are incapable of meeting all the children's needs, as the government and Ofsted are not imposing an increase to ratios but offering the option to capable childminders.
What about the parents who have have than 6 children? are you suggesting we tell them how many children they can actually give birth to!
If you do not wish to increase your numbers then DONT, but please do not indiscriminate against those of us that are able to.

Kind Regards,

Allyson & Colin.
Tiny Tots Childminding Service.
Visit Us At Home - TinyTots Your Home From Home Childcare Provider (http://www.tinytots-online.co.uk)

Very well put.

I find it somewhat insulting that I am being told by other cms and so called professionals/experts that I am incapable of caring for more than 3 young children at one time. I look after 4 most days. I find it easy. The children are developing to exceptional standards - as confirmed by Ofsted & my LA. Parents love it that their children are with 3 other children, rather than just one or 2. They appreciate the additional socialising their children benefit from. They apreciate the flexibility I can offer them when they need additional days or hours.
My current exceptions are for continuity of care. What is the difference between me having 4 children for continuity, or 4 for new business?

Surely the responsibility should be with each cm to only take on the children they are capable of looking after? Why penalise the cms working within the rules because of those who don't?

Boris
28-01-2013, 04:03 PM
I disagree i think it shows that people feel strongly about the issue. Considering these changes will effect all early years educators I am really surprised that there isn't more of them from other early year providers.

Nurseries probably welcome the changes. I know the nursery I worked at will! I just think childminders should stick together, one voice and all that. Unfortunately I think it has become a "which forum do you support" competition rather than everyone focusing on what the issue really is!

rickysmiths
28-01-2013, 04:28 PM
I must say I don't disagree with what Tinytots-cb4 has to say and I have not signed either Petition.

I have had so many Variations in the last 4 years for 4 under fives I have lost count and I can care for them perfectly well. I have also had 2 under ones on my Certificate for a number of years, have always got good grades and with some Outstandings.

I don't think will will be forced to have more children if we don't want to. The only danger will be perhaps less experienced cms trying to take on too many but hey ho I know cms who do that now and some who go over number regularly but they are never stopped even when complaints are made.

However I respect those who want to have a Petition and I really do think it should be one not two. Sadly I do think it is a them and us competition because I understand that the organisation who do the petitions have approached the posters of the new one asking them to come together as one so the voice is stronger and will carry more weight and they have refused to.


I feel very sad it has to be a them and us situation. It is very unprofessional, very childish and does nothing to promote the Professionalism of Childminders as a whole. We do not belong to different Unions and I don't regard different social media forums as such either. We don't have a Union which is the very reason if we really want to be taken notice of we should stick together as one united body, irrespective of what forums we support. It is bigger than that isn't it?

I enjoy visiting and taking part on a variety of Forums on the internet, childminding ones, craft ones, business ones so what? I am a childminder and it makes sense to me to stick together, at the end of the day does it matter who started the ruddy Petition first if it represents the childminder's interests ? Lets act like adults.

JCrakers
28-01-2013, 04:41 PM
I would like to have 4 children under 5 because I've had so many variations recently and was unable to take on another child because it was new business. This would have fit in nicely with my 4yr old mindee leaving in July.

But I won't lower my prices whilst I take on more children which is what the higher ratios are aimed at.

wendywu
28-01-2013, 04:53 PM
Very well put.

I find it somewhat insulting that I am being told by other cms and so called professionals/experts that I am incapable of caring for more than 3 young children at one time. I look after 4 most days. I find it easy. The children are developing to exceptional standards - as confirmed by Ofsted & my LA. Parents love it that their children are with 3 other children, rather than just one or 2. They appreciate the additional socialising their children benefit from. They apreciate the flexibility I can offer them when they need additional days or hours.
My current exceptions are for continuity of care. What is the difference between me having 4 children for continuity, or 4 for new business?

Surely the responsibility should be with each cm to only take on the children they are capable of looking after? Why penalise the cms working within the rules because of those who don't?

I must say i agree with Mouse and i have 4 children every day except Friday and was graded Outstanding so Ofsted must think that i am more than meeting their needs. It is so nice not to have to apply now when i need a variation I have not signed either petition. :(

Mouse
28-01-2013, 05:07 PM
Well, if reports are accurate, it looks like the increase will be from 3 to 4 children. I'll be very pleased if that proves to be true :D

Now we've just got to wait & see what the time scale is for changes...and what else comes with it. That's what worries me - not the ratios, the other changes that might be coming :panic:

Tunja
28-01-2013, 05:11 PM
I think more worrying is the leaked implication that childminders will need to be part of an agency!!!!!

Tunja

FussyElmo
28-01-2013, 05:28 PM
Well, if reports are accurate, it looks like the increase will be from 3 to 4 children. I'll be very pleased if that proves to be true :D

Now we've just got to wait & see what the time scale is for changes...and what else comes with it. That's what worries me - not the ratios, the other changes that might be coming :panic:

If they raise the number to 4 will we then be able to have 5 under continuity of care?

Im fighting the ratio change because I dont see how increasing ratios will decrease childcare costs.

Im betting all off you with 4 charge the same amount for the children not less. I personally believe that the government is making childcare a vote winner at the next election and the only way they can do that is to reduce childcare costs and they wont be finding the money to do it - as the country cant afford it. So it will be with regulations to reduce the price of childcare.

I may be proven wrong tomorrow I do hope so!!!!

Mouse
28-01-2013, 06:02 PM
If they raise the number to 4 will we then be able to have 5 under continuity of care?

Im fighting the ratio change because I dont see how increasing ratios will decrease childcare costs.

Im betting all off you with 4 charge the same amount for the children not less. I personally believe that the government is making childcare a vote winner at the next election and the only way they can do that is to reduce childcare costs and they wont be finding the money to do it - as the country cant afford it. So it will be with regulations to reduce the price of childcare.

I may be proven wrong tomorrow I do hope so!!!!

You can already have 5 under continuity of care, as some people do.

If you don't think increasing numbers will decrease costs, why oppose it? Surely you'd oppose it if you thought allowing us to have more children would force costs down? If you don't think it's going to change fees, why fight it? I'd have thought keeping each child's cost the same and allowing us to have one more would be good news for cms?

sarah707
28-01-2013, 06:08 PM
Wow what a lot of strong opinions - every one welcome! :D

What are not welcome are the personal attacks on me and others who feel this petition is important or who have differing views. Those need to stop please.

Sorry I haven't been around today to answer the many messages I have received - I've been working. I will answer you all individually if you bear with me.

.............................................

The aim of any campaign / petition / lobby is to get people talking about the issues... thinking about how the changes will affect them... considering how they want to respond (if at all) to the govt proposals.

I think you can safely say we have done that! :clapping:

.............................................

I want to be absolutely clear on some points -

I totally respect the views of those who believe that they can ensure the safety, health and wellbeing of more than 6 children under the age of 8 at once...

I have never been accused of being discriminatory before and I have to be honest and say that hurts quite a lot - but your views are respected and are out there for all to see as they are your views and you clearly believe strongly that I am wrong.

I totally respect the views of those who feel that their business sustainability will not be under threat if every early years setting in their area is allowed higher ratios and if a fees war starts...

Personally, I know that with 10+ nurseries, 30+ childminders and a pre-school attached to every primary locally I will be completely stuffed for occupancy if this happens - as with all things we have to look at our own business and do what we think is right for each one of us.

I totally respect the views of those who want to sign a different petition - I think it shows just how passionate we are about the subject!

Again, your posts are welcome because they show that you clearly feel as strongly about this as I do - and that's good because hopefully if we keep that feeling and build on it then we can do something positive here.

We just need to remember, I think, that this isn't about personalities or who writes what or where it is posted - it's about the children first and foremost and our businesses and their future success.

.................................................. .................

This petition has come about because forum members asked for it! It has taken a lot of time and effort to put together and I am very, very passionate about its success.

It is just one part of what I hope will be a concerted campaign to let the govt know how the majority of childminders feel.

So let's keep to the subject please - more children + lower fees = ??

Plus as other have said - all the other nonsense floating around in the press at the moment about agencies again.

Thank you! :D

FussyElmo
28-01-2013, 06:16 PM
You can already have 5 under continuity of care, as some people do.

If you don't think increasing numbers will decrease costs, why oppose it? Surely you'd oppose it if you thought allowing us to have more children would force costs down? If you don't think it's going to change fees, why fight it? I'd have thought keeping each child's cost the same and allowing us to have one more would be good news for cms?

Because thats exactly why Im fighting it now no one will ever take on a extra child for less money unless regulations were brought in such as independent networks to monitor/set our prices. I also think as you say people have 5 under 5 with variations now so could that then increase to 6 under 5 for continuity. So then the number have doubled from the 3 under 5 to 6 under 5 in a blink of an eye.

Sometimes its better to be on the start of the battle than to join in when the tactics change.

This government has not got the best interests of the children here like they didnt when they shut all the council run old peoples homes. They werent bothered what it would do to them just that it saved money and now as a vote winner they are starting on the children citing childcare costs :(:(

I would love to be proved wrong however Im not holding my breathe

little chickee
28-01-2013, 06:26 PM
I understand it as that we will be allowed to have 4 instead of 3 and that we are supposed to decrease our fees by x amount.
So effectively we will earn the same money but will have 4 to look after instead of 3.

Great for parents, not so great for cm.

But no-one can MAKE you take on more mindees. No-one can make you decrease your fees.
TBH I rarely get any enquireis for cm, its not like there is a never ending supply of potential mindees and i'm turning them away beacuse of my ratios.

I personally would still stick to 3 under 5's. I've had more before and i find it hard going. But then it depends on the particular mindees doesn't it?
Cm will still be able to choose wheter they take on a mindee or not. I only work 3 days a week at the moment through choice - I could work more but i choose not to - that will not change.
I should imagine nurseries will love this. More children for the same amount of adults.
And i'm sure that this will have a knock on effect for cm.
I've not signed anything yet - I'm mulling it over.

wendywu
28-01-2013, 11:28 PM
Maybe this could work the other way round. I can see some high paid professional parents being willing to pay more per hour for a minder who would only have 3 EYFS children on her books.

Who knows this could backfire on ET :panic:

Rick
29-01-2013, 08:29 AM
Maybe this could work the other way round. I can see some high paid professional parents being willing to pay more per hour for a minder who would only have 3 EYFS children on her books.

Who knows this could backfire on ET :panic:

That's something I hadn't thought of!

suzyjane73
29-01-2013, 09:20 AM
I don't agree with this petition. I can't speak for nurseries but as a childminder, one extra space would make all the difference. The times I have turned away a full week's business for the sake of potentially having four under five for a couple of hours a week. If I take on a assistant I have to pay them minimum wage, which is more than I earn so no point financially. I don't think anyone is going to come and force you to take extra children, but it is good to have the option. As for "Where are all the extra children coming from?", there is somewhat of a baby boom in my area and not enough childminders.

lou lou
29-01-2013, 11:22 AM
I really dont understand how this would work for childminders, how on earth would you be able to get out of the house with these extra children bad enough if you have 3 I have to do school runs and there is no way I would take on that much extra chiildren safety would become a big issue and there is the extra work you would have to do and extra learning journals, paper work, if I had the opportunity to take on the extra ratio of children I would honestly say I would not do it it and stick to my normal ratio I really would not be able to cope, dont really think the goverment have thought it through

wendywu
29-01-2013, 12:16 PM
I really dont understand how this would work for childminders, how on earth would you be able to get out of the house with these extra children bad enough if you have 3 I have to do school runs and there is no way I would take on that much extra chiildren safety would become a big issue and there is the extra work you would have to do and extra learning journals, paper work, if I had the opportunity to take on the extra ratio of children I would honestly say I would not do it it and stick to my normal ratio I really would not be able to cope, dont really think the goverment have thought it through

This is what it is all about being given the power to RA if we would be able to cope with it and decide ourselves on the outcome.
I myself would never want 3 non walkers but would quite happy to cope with 4 or even 5 three year olds. Not that i have ever had 5 children, 4 is my limit.

You cannot be forced into taking on more children so i do not see the problem really. Ofsted have routinely given out permission for 4 children so not much difference really. If any one thinks that they can cope with 6 under school age i would like to be present when they tried :laughing:

sarah707
29-01-2013, 07:37 PM
I don't agree with this petition. I can't speak for nurseries but as a childminder, one extra space would make all the difference. The times I have turned away a full week's business for the sake of potentially having four under five for a couple of hours a week. If I take on a assistant I have to pay them minimum wage, which is more than I earn so no point financially. I don't think anyone is going to come and force you to take extra children, but it is good to have the option. As for "Where are all the extra children coming from?", there is somewhat of a baby boom in my area and not enough childminders.

I totally understand what you mean about 1 extra space making a difference...

However, we will be battling against local nurseries and pre-schools and other childminders who will also have the extra space - and larger provisions will have significantly more than 1 space under the new plans!!

In areas of the country where nobody is full now I can see it becoming a really bit sustainability problem :(

Teresa
30-01-2013, 08:15 PM
Phew I thought it was just me thinking that I've just come on here to see what everyone else was thinking I haven't signed the petition either I also look after 4 children on a daily basis and was rated as Outstanding as for our area we seem to be inundated with childcare requests and our local nurseries are full to bursting due to an increase in eastern Europeans in our area.





Well, if reports are accurate, it looks like the increase will be from 3 to 4 children. I'll be very pleased if that proves to be true :D

Now we've just got to wait & see what the time scale is for changes...and what else comes with it. That's what worries me - not the ratios, the other changes that might be coming :panic:

HelenHale
03-02-2013, 04:39 PM
Phew I thought it was just me thinking that I've just come on here to see what everyone else was thinking I haven't signed the petition either I also look after 4 children on a daily basis and was rated as Outstanding as for our area we seem to be inundated with childcare requests and our local nurseries are full to bursting due to an increase in eastern Europeans in our area.

I'm not opposed to childminders having 4 under 5, or even 2 under 1 if they can manage it. This happened pre-EYFS 2012 anyway through individual variations. All these changes will mean is that childminders will be trusted to make that decision themselves. I think most will be sensible about what they can/cannot manage on a day to day basis.

What I am VERY opposed to is nursery staff being FORCED to take sole responsibility for 4 babies or 6 two year olds (in the same floorspace that they previously had 3 babies or 4 two year olds) if their employers DO decide to work within the new guidelines. I think that this will be detrimental to the children's welfare and will increase the attainment gap in school readiness.

I also think that nurseries being allowed to take more children, and schools being allowed to take two year olds clearly WILL affect my sustainability and this is why I have signed both petitions.