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kimnolan87
27-12-2012, 10:29 AM
Hiya,

Ok this could be a long one - please bare with me.

I have one child who's parents have had trouble paying me due to tax credit issues - we agreed that they could pay their 25% (assuming they would receive the full 75% towards childcare) and then when the issue is resolved, I will be paid all the money that is owing, in one lumpsome.

So it has been quite a while now almost 13 weeks, and dad told me last week that he has been assured the issue will be resolved ASAP and the money will definitely be in his bank account before the end of the year!

To my thinking, this means I should be getting all that's owed to me, this week or next week at the latest, but now I am unsure. Dad mentioned something about wanting to take his daughter and other kids to a safari park whilst he is off work - but that money is to pay me, right?!

And then to top it off, mum text me (on Christmas day!!!!) to ask why she needs to pay whilst she has her daughter herself for two weeks in January, when she is off work?!

I've explained that it is in the terms and conditions of the contract, that parents pay for their holidays but I don't charge for mine. But then she replied explaining that she still didn't understand, and then why did she have to give four weeks notice!!!!!!!

Arrgghhhh!!!!! I should have had the little girl today, but mum told me last night that she wouldn't be here until Friday, as they have been unable to return from London!!!!!

I just feel like after all I have done for them, that this is their way of making things difficult now!!!

Please help!!!!!

Xxx

FussyElmo
27-12-2012, 10:47 AM
Right they have had 13 weeks of just paying you 25%.

Tell them their tax credit isues is none of your concern (and Im sceptical of there being any and I dispute they will get 80% paid) and it is their responsabilty to pay you.

You need to tell them that all outstanding monies need to be pay up by XXXX date and if it isnt then you will no longer be able to care for their child.

You to your credit have tried to be helpful etc but now its time to get strict - will they be telling the safari park etc they can only pay 25% - no of course they wont.

Im not meaning to be harsh but these people are taking the proverbial and you now have to stop it :thumbsup:

Maza
27-12-2012, 10:59 AM
Poor you. I know it's not helpful to you now, but in future always insist on being paid in advance. Most of us have learnt the hard way! x

AgentTink
27-12-2012, 11:17 AM
Hi Kim, As soon as i read this thread i remember replying to you originally when you posted the problem back in September

http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/forum/fees-charges/109010-parent-having-problems-tax-credits.html#post1163442

I think that right now you dont have many options left. I really dont believe it has taken tax credits this long to correct the problem, and for this family you have gone way above what you are expected to do.

From this point you need to make a stand. You need to write down what is exactly owed by the parents and then state that you expect this money to paid by XXX date. You do not have a contract with tax credits but with the parents and it is their responsibility to pay you not tax credits. I would be making it clear that the care for their child will stop until all overdue fees are paid and that moving forward you will only provide care for their daughter on the basis that fee's are paid upfront either weekly or monthly.

If you dont make a ultumatium now how much longer are you prepared to go on only being paid 25% each week. Have you even discussed with them how much tax credits are covering and how they plan to make up any short fall that tax credits wont cover.

In regards to holiday situation just simply photocopy and highlight contract were it states full pay for parents time off, and then say if they still do not understand to come and have a face to face meeting so you can explain it to them again, and that you will not have further conversation by text message.

You shouldn't have to be involved in any of this situation, and i think right now you need to pull yourself away from the tax credits situation and put your business head on. They pay you as per your contract and you don't give them any more favours.

karensmart4
27-12-2012, 11:24 AM
They have been messing you about, tax credits never take this long to sort out a claim and if they did have any queries then they contact you direct.

I would assume they are planning on leaving without paying what's owed.

Tell them (if that does happen) that you have an obligation to contact Tax Credits with an audit of care provided by yourself... date started/finished (with 4 wks notice even if not served), how many hours per wk, how many hrs in total, how much per hour, how much in total their bill came to, how much they have paid and how much is outstanding.

I would then get in touch with your insurance company and talk to them about it all.

Hopefully it wont come to that but ....

And hugs to you

bunyip
27-12-2012, 12:06 PM
Poor you: I do feel for you. :(

Please don't take this the wrong way: I'm trying to be 'constructively critical'.

Essentially, you need to change the way you think about the financial arrangements. It's to your personal credit that you've done so much to help, but all it's done is let them take the wee-wee. In a way, your comment about the safari park money being yours and letting them delay the 75% in the first place kinda show you're looking at it the wrong way. It looks as if you're thinking the client is responsible for 25% and HMRC are responsible for the rest.

No. The client is responsible for paying you the full amount: on time, every time. If they then reclaim a %age through tax credits, that's their affair.

On top of that, everything the family has said about holiday, notice, etc. indicates they have no respect for the contracted terms or for you. They just want everything their way and to get away with as much as possible. A client will only ever get away with what a CM lets them get away with. So, as previous members have said, now is the time to make a stand. You have the strength, and right on your side, so go for it. :thumbsup:

I sincerely hope this gets sorted out. :)

Mouse
27-12-2012, 01:13 PM
You poor thing.

Firstly, when mum asks why she has to pay you when her child is not with you, explain that they pay for the childcare space to be available for the hours specified on the contract, not for the hours you work. If the contracted space is available they pay, if it's not available (ie. you're on hoiday) they don't pay.

Then get tough. I'm sure the maximum tax credits payment is not only 70%, so even if they do get the full amount they are still going to owe you the other 5% for the 13 weeks they haven't paid. Assuming tax credits does come up with a lump sum to cover your fees, many parents find it very hard to hand it all over to their childminder. They see their bank balance shoot up & are suddenly very reluctant to pay it all out again.

I would perhaps phone your insurance company & see if they will give you any legal advice. It does sound as if this family may end up leaving owing you money, so get the legal help before that happens.

Good luck. I hope you get it sorted and receive all the money they owe you.

bunyip
27-12-2012, 01:40 PM
I've just re-read your previous thread on this. Maybe HMRC have made a mistake, but it's a pretty huge one if they assessed the couple as above the threshold when they reckon they're entitled to the maximum 70% !??!? And then to take so long to sort it out...?

I agree with previous posts that it looks likely there'll be a shortfall of some sort even if they do hand over all the TC arrears as soon as they get it.

I'm in full agreement with Mouse: a call to your legal representatives would be in order. No harm in being prepared to make a start on whatever's needed to recover the arrears.

Good luck. :thumbsup:

kimnolan87
27-12-2012, 04:43 PM
Hi,

Thanks for all the advice - my mistake, the parents are paying 30% of the weekly bill.

I am in the process of discussing this matter with the legal team provided by morton michel, just waiting for a call back from one of the legal advisors now.

I'll let you know what happens :)

Xxx

caz3007
27-12-2012, 05:03 PM
I would be careful. My full timer had a problem with her tax credits and she is a single parent and because of a mistake made by her employer she wasnt entitled to any childcare help and has had to pay it back. She will get it again in April as she will be below the threshold again.

She has always paid me in full during all this and I dont have any worries about her not paying.

kimnolan87
05-01-2013, 10:59 AM
Hi - just wanted to update you on the current situation......and ask for some more advice :/

After speaking to the legal team through Morton Michel - they advised me firstly, to talk to the parents and see if we could keep it amicable....then if this fails, to write a formal letter explaining that payment must be made by a certain date or further action would be taken.

Over the last week or so, I have been discussing payment with both parents (mum drops off and dad picks up - but dad seems to be the one who deals with money) and I have provided them with a detailed invoice, stating what has been paid and what is outstanding. I have calculated the amount upto the 18th January, as the child will be on holiday for two weeks after today.

Yesterday when mum dropped I off, she told me that they were both trying to get hold of some money and hopefully I would have some by the end of the day. When dad picked up, he told me that he has taken out a loan and I should have payment by next week!

I then receive a voicemail from dad, again expressing his lack of understanding as to why they need to pay for their two weeks holiday!

Mum dropped off this morning and expressed that because I want payment, she doesn't know how she'll be able to afford it, and will have to stop I from coming! I have explained that we could look at a payment plan, where they can pay so much back each week and take it from there. So mum has agreed to come round next week to discuss this.

I really can't afford to loose this child as it is a big chunk of money - my boyfriend has gone part time at work to start up a gardening business, and I am struggling to find any more work at the moment.

Talking money is one of the things I hate about this job, and this is making me very anxious!

I guess I am going to have to go down the formal route and draft a letter and hand it to dad tonight?!

Please help!!!

Xxx

FussyElmo
05-01-2013, 11:49 AM
They are going on holiday but cant afford to pay you............................................... .................................................

he is expressing concern at your lack of understanding..................................... .................................................. .......

They may have to stop one coming so now you are thinking of allowing a payment plan.............................................. ..

Ok honey going to be really blunt here - they are taking you for a ride and you are allowing it. You need to tell them its not your lack of understanding but their attitude that it seems ok not to pay you.

Sorry I know you say you cant afford to lose this contract but why on earth not its not like they are paying you full amount.

I think the longer you allow this to continue the more you are allowing the debt to build up and are increasing the risk of them leaving and still owing you money and then have to go down the route of insurance company recovering the cost.

karensmart4
05-01-2013, 01:07 PM
So as I understand it..... No money yet from Family Tax Credits ????????

Family still paying 30% ???????

I am very sorry but they are taking you for a ride!!!!!!!! They have no intention of paying you!!!!!!!! they are pocketing the tax credits!!!!!!!!!!

Harsh and I hate being like this, but it's true..... Send that letter with all the information to Tax Credit office at once and then start advertising the space.

marie2012
05-01-2013, 01:26 PM
Agree with previous posts, i know tax credits can be a pain but this should have been sorted by now. They can only pay you 30% but are going on holiday. They're trying to get the money, they have taken out a loan. Which one is it? Can u speak to them both together. I understand that u may need this child but not for a 30% pay. They need to pay up asap or are they thinking of leaving and not paying. Hope u get it sorted x

izzy23
05-01-2013, 02:41 PM
Absolutely have to agree with all that has been said regarding this family taking you for a ride. I've had my fair share of similar situation and I smell a very big rat here, someone mentioned that they are probably pocketing the TC whilst underpaying you and I agree with that theory. The mere fact that they have been off to London and are on holidays for two weeks.....I'd be so very very angry and disappointed and I really really feel for you.
I wouldn't even offer them a payment plan, you are just giving them more avenues in which to have you working for less money and over the long term, how many hours will you have ended up doing for free?
Now I've used MM legal team for a non payment issue before and with me, i was reimbursed directly from them for all monies owing and then MM went on to take parents to court to recover the fees plus legal expenses. Not sure if MM still work this way, but you need to get a formal stern letter drafted now, you need the MM team advising you what to put in your letters (in my experience they were excellent in helping with this part), if that doesnt work, get MM to escalate it, I wonder how mum and dad will feel about it when they start having official legal letters land on their doormat, hopefully they wont find it so easy to ignore.
losing revenue is a bad thing yes, but as bad as working for free for a family that has not one ounce of professional respect for you?

Goatgirl
05-01-2013, 04:58 PM
:( oh dear...
Bless you, you have tried really hard to accommodate a family in financial difficulty and they have repaid you by taking advantage. Unfortunately there are many people who do this sort of thing and don't even think its wrong: they probably haven't given a second's thought to the massive favour you have done them or the bills you need to pay with the money you have earned and they haven't handed over. Because it is paid to them they still think it's theirs despite the agreement between you, grrr!

If there is no new work about at the moment I do understand it would be difficult to give notice while you think there is still a chance of getting your money back, so in your situation I would proceed as follows:
Inform parents that as of right now they will need to pay in full and in advance. That way, if it takes a while to get the outstanding amount or if it ends up going to small claims at least you wil be being paid in full for what you are doing from now on. If they do not pay in full, suspend childcare until payment is made. Remember that if they are not paying you are not earning, so why put yourself through it...

If they repeat the 'we'll have to take lo out of your care' line, remind them that you will need 4 weeks written notice whether the care is used or not and that any outstanding fees will be pursued with the support of your insurers and if necessary the small claims court. It is perfectly possible to tell them this just as a matter of fact 'this is what happens in these circumstances unless we agree terms which are stuck to ; in full and on time', politely and with a smile on your face, so don't feel bad about it. You are running a business which earns your living. In not paying you they are stealing money from your family effectively. They should be feeling bad about it all. Not you.

If you feel you can continue working with them and they pay in full and on time from now on (give no more leeway at all) then I would agree that the outstanding money can be paid over time in the payment plan you have arranged to meet up about. I would also ask that both parents come to your house for the meeting so everyone is getting the same information, agreeing to the same set of arrangements etc.

At the end of the meeting I would make sure you have signed written copies what has been agreed (type up before, leaving gaps to fill in actual amounts to be paid on which dates etc) and ensure everyone signs and everyone has a copy. If possible bring the meeting forward and have another adult present as witness and for your moral support.

They have been manipulating you with their threats of 'having to take lo out', 'having to' get a loan - where is it then?!, arguing terms of the contract already agreed to at the beginning of the arrangement etc. So you need to be prepared for more of this and be ready for them with what you will accept as a bottom line regarding outstanding payments, sticking to what has already been agreed in the contract and how things will be FROM NOW ON.

Regarding the holiday fees, just give them a copy of your fees structure or policy or the part of the contract highlighting the relevant part of the agreement and verbally remind them that you decide on your fees etc based on how many spaces you have and how much money you need to earn from those spaces to make a living. They pay for the space, not the attendance..... If you didn't charge for family's holidays, you would have needed to charge a higher hourly rate etc....

Good luck, I hope you get them into line and don't find yourself without any business or any of the back pay. If there was lots of work out there at the moment by the way, I wouldn't hesitate to say give immediate notice for non payment.... no matter what you agreed about the outstanding 70% it has always been their responsibility to pay it and I'm sure it shouldn't have gone on for all this time.

Let us know how it all goes: very well, I hope :thumbsup:

karensmart4
05-01-2013, 06:30 PM
I hope you are ok, it's not a nice thing to go through and I do feel for you :group hug:

I just wanted to say, take note of what MM tell you and follow their advice to the letter, that way you will get your money, if not from the family, from MM.

And please inform Tax Credits!

Bless you for having to put up with all this hassle, I've been through it myself and come out the other side.

Take care x

mushpea
05-01-2013, 06:42 PM
Don't let them take the Mick anymore, they are saying they will have to stop child from coming to make you feel guilty and because they know you won't want to loose the income so in a way they are black mailing you in to so what they want, if dad has taken out a loan then the mney is sitting there so they could pay you if they wanted to.
Do not accept a payment plan, tell them you have sort legal advice and have been advices against it and if payment in full isn't made by x date you will have no alternative but to put this in the hands of the solicitors, you could also add that you feel upset by their lack of respect for your services and by the fact they keep putting off paying and tell them if they feel the need to withdraw child then fine cause I bet they won't find anyone else to work for that long with no pay

It's a small world
05-01-2013, 07:10 PM
Hi

I too think they are taking you for a ride . Have you tried calling their bluff and say you have had a letter from tax credits to confirm the hours you work and what pay you recieve/have received ? This way you can say that you have to note what payment they have given you etc. It may panic them thinking they are getting checked up on.!!!

Hope they aren't taking advantage but if they can afford to go away or to safari park or whatever then sorry they can afford to pay for childcare, sacrifices need to be made. No fees no care.. I know its hard but you have to get tough. Like OP said you're not getting paid anyway so why not refuse care and free some of your time up.. hope that doesnt sound harsh. Just fed up of so many of us being taken advantage of. How would they feel if their bosses said sorry can't pay you this week im going away or need to do whatever...they wouldnt stand for it .

karen m
05-01-2013, 07:32 PM
Feel for you, i was in the same situation September had parent paying her part but not tax credits sob story it had not been paid and if i was trying to cheat you would i pay any eventually got tough no pay no care , she was fine i understand will pay what i owe worked out a plan , 2 payments and she moved , 2 full timers so you can imagine what i lost out on . I have since had family come sign agreed a deposit as not starting till April less hours but being paid

bunyip
05-01-2013, 07:55 PM
I do feel for you, :( but have to agree with members who've posted today.

This family is taking the pee. I don't see any future in them as clients. Yes, it's hard when you're desperate for the money. But is it worth it for 30% of the money plus a pack of lies?

Look at it this way. If you had a client who paid you 100% of the fee, on time, then I walked into your house, took 70% of your money then went home to book a holiday and conduct a tax fraud in your name - exactly how would you feel about me? How cooperative would you be if I then asked you to do me a favour?

jellytots2912
05-01-2013, 08:12 PM
As a parent who used Childcare when we both were working full time and we only got 46% paid yes I am sad and I worked it out. I think it's only single parents that generally get the full 70% so I reckon your parents are gonna get a shock x

barbarella68
05-01-2013, 08:57 PM
It is actually calculated on how much you earn one of my sets of parents both work and get 70% which is the maximum.It doesn't matter if you are a single parent or not(they may be earning £50,000 PA)

LauraS
05-01-2013, 09:07 PM
Gosh, I'm sorry that you've been treated so badly. I have to say, I don't beleive for one little minute that Tax Credits are taking all this time - before CMing I worked in welfare benefits and dealt with tax credits day in, day out - in my experience when processing changes of circumstances for things like this they take days, not weeks - even when there is a delay re childcare costs, you are likely to know about it because it tends to be that they are checking that the provider is being paid, so you would have heard from them.

I would lay it on the line for them - either they pay you within seven days or you will withdraw care, instruct your legal advice team at no cost to yourself to pursue them as far as a CCJ if necessary and send info to tax credits.


For reasons of self-preservation, I would try to start considering that money as lost. The heartache caused when you think of the arrears owed and what you need to spend it on will make you ill when, week upon week, you don't receive it. If you can draw a line under it and move forward with the finances you have, then they money will be a bonus if and when you receive it, rather than a millstone round your neck now. I know it's not easy, but will make for less stress. By the way, that doesn't mean I'm suggesting that you don't pursue it and try to recover it - I would, just for the pleasure of putting a CCJ on their file, even if they don't get a penny.

migimoo
05-01-2013, 11:52 PM
:group hug: to u hon....I had a tax credit non-payer also who came out with all of the same things you're hearing from yours,I was making myself ill worrying about the money and asking her about it constantly to be told i'd get it when she got it.....then her DS told me mummy was on a spa break with her friend!
Dad was given a letter that night stating that unless full payment of arrears was received on Monday then I would be refusing care....she got very nasty, q. abusive and personal so as some have said think of the money as being gone then if you DO receive it that's a bonus.

I learnt from my mistake and now make it clear to parents when signing up that the contract is with THEM and not tax credits-if tax credits are 'late' paying then THEY need to find the money while they're waiting.

I hope this gets sorted for you xx

bunyip
06-01-2013, 10:16 AM
Laura has a very good point there.

The parents seem to be sailing along merrily, thinking they are bullet-proof. But what if they were confronted with the consequences? What if they suddenly realised you're serious and as a result:-

They may get investigated and found out by Tax Credits?
They could end up with a CCJ on file which will seriously knacker their credit rating?


:)

The Juggler
06-01-2013, 01:23 PM
Hi - just wanted to update you on the current situation......and ask for some more advice :/

After speaking to the legal team through Morton Michel - they advised me firstly, to talk to the parents and see if we could keep it amicable....then if this fails, to write a formal letter explaining that payment must be made by a certain date or further action would be taken.

Over the last week or so, I have been discussing payment with both parents (mum drops off and dad picks up - but dad seems to be the one who deals with money) and I have provided them with a detailed invoice, stating what has been paid and what is outstanding. I have calculated the amount upto the 18th January, as the child will be on holiday for two weeks after today.

Yesterday when mum dropped I off, she told me that they were both trying to get hold of some money and hopefully I would have some by the end of the day. When dad picked up, he told me that he has taken out a loan and I should have payment by next week!

I then receive a voicemail from dad, again expressing his lack of understanding as to why they need to pay for their two weeks holiday!

Mum dropped off this morning and expressed that because I want payment, she doesn't know how she'll be able to afford it, and will have to stop I from coming! I have explained that we could look at a payment plan, where they can pay so much back each week and take it from there. So mum has agreed to come round next week to discuss this.

I really can't afford to loose this child as it is a big chunk of money - my boyfriend has gone part time at work to start up a gardening business, and I am struggling to find any more work at the moment.

Talking money is one of the things I hate about this job, and this is making me very anxious!

I guess I am going to have to go down the formal route and draft a letter and hand it to dad tonight?!

Please help!!!

Xxx


a formal letter hon and a payment plan that does not leave you short. Personally I'd halt care immediately but I understand that you can't afford to lose them. Don't leave it til sometime next week when it suits mum, tell them you want it in place by tomorrow latest. and the repayment starts THIS WEEK!

blue bear
06-01-2013, 04:29 PM
You say you can't afford to loose them but look at it another way, most childminders end up paying 50% of what they earn in expenses.
You are receiving 30% from the parents so in affect are paying 20% to work.
By the time you have paid out all your costs the 30% you are getting will have been swallowed up so I can't see it worth your while working for this family, let's face it they are not going to pay you what they owe you, they have spent the money they should have been paying to you.
Time to get advertising big style and cut your losses with this family.


I found the comment about them not wanting to pay for the two weeks holiday comical since they are not paying you anyway!

MAWI
06-01-2013, 05:24 PM
I feel for you and know how you bend over backwards for people, we've all done it.

I totally agree with the above posts. It's been far too long and you are not actually earning the full amount if it is never going to materialise. You would be better looking or advertising for someone else. I would notify them that you are no longer going to work for them unless payment is made. They are taking the Michael!!

I'm sure they wouldn't work for 30% of their wages, so how is it fair that you do?

Good luck and I do hope it can be sorted.

Lilylulu
06-01-2013, 05:38 PM
if they are expecting 70% tax credits then why are they worried about paying your holidays anyway? follow the advice given by your insurance provider. But also be aware that its very easy to go through a smalls claim process via moneyclaim online. We had very cheeky parents who practically ran to us with the money as soon as they got a letter headed HM Courts!! Good Luck xx