PDA

View Full Version : Old learning journey



mammumof4
07-12-2012, 09:49 PM
I've just come across a learning journey from a child I looked after about 3 years ago! :o
When she left her mum wasn't interested in taking it :(
She (reluctantly) arranged to come and get it a few times but never turned up.
She has since moved house.
What do I do with it?? It's a lovely detailed LJ, prob one of my best as children have come and gone and been PT just lately, and my other full timers took there's when they left.
Would Ofsted be interested in looking at it when I'm inspected next or am I not even supposed to still have it!!? Help!!

sarah707
07-12-2012, 11:30 PM
It should have been handed over really - photos are parents property once children leave unless you have permission to keep them.

Ofsted will only want to see documents for children still in your care.

Can you get it to the child somehow? :D:-)

mammumof4
07-12-2012, 11:36 PM
I Tryed to give it to mum a few times, but she kept forgetting it. Then she arranged to come and get it and didn't show. I was going to post it but then heard she had moved house. It's a shame really, I don't want to throw it away :(

bunyip
08-12-2012, 02:54 PM
It should have been handed over really - photos are parents property once children leave unless you have permission to keep them.

Ofsted will only want to see documents for children still in your care.

Can you get it to the child somehow? :D:-)

:confused: Just as a point of information, on what do you base this statement?

sarah707
08-12-2012, 05:56 PM
:confused: Just as a point of information, on what do you base this statement?

Something an Ofsted inspector told me some years ago.

She said that unless we have written permission to continue using / keep children's photos then permission runs out when they leave us.

I questioned it at the time because I was a little confused as it is not actually a legal requirement or a requirement of the EYFS (2008 or 2012) or the Childcare Register that we have written permission for photos - but of course it is good practice and not something you should ignore!!

However, she was adamant!!

She was very hot on data protection generally and I remember she checked all my permissions, wanted to see my locked cupboard where parent / child documents were stored, asked a parent whose child's birthday announcement was in my newsletter if she'd okayed it... etc

It's advice I always give Bunyip because I would hate someone to fall foul of it by default - not knowing is no excuse in law.

Hope this clarifies :D

rickysmiths
08-12-2012, 06:23 PM
I have photos of all the children I have ever minded in an album as a memory for me and my own children who grew up with them. 18 years ago we did not have all the written permissions that we have now. Am I supposed to bin them all and throw my working life and the memories in the bin? I find it a very sad world that would expect this to happen. I have always worked on the basis that if the parents have given permission for me to take and use the photos in the first palce they are happy for me to keep them unless they as for them to be destroyed. A lot of my parents send me photos when the children have left. I got one last month of a brother and sister, their school photo this year. they left me 18mths ago!

Surely if this were the case all the photos I took as a catering manger both running my own business and working for companies of events which I used as a portfolio of my work and has members of staff and employees have to be binned as well?

lilac_dragon
08-12-2012, 07:34 PM
I have to agree with Rickysmith here. I've been childminding for 28 yyears and have a scrapbook ofphotos of the children i've looked after over all this time, generally doing activities - long before we had to record things like that. We never had all the Permissions and Policies back then that we have now, and I just asked each parent when I gave them photos i they minded me keeping a copy too - when Truprint used to do a big copy with 2 small ones attached lol. Not one person ever objected and I now childmind for one of my old mindees, and showed them the scrapbook of them when they were little, they loved it!!
Ofsted have seen it on several inspections, all the photos have the date under them, going back to 1985 and not one Inspector has ever queried it and the only comments have always been favourable ones.

I can see Sarah's point, and Yes i now have permissions in place, as required, but I would not get rid of my scrapbook! It represents 28 years of MY life as well as the children's, of my Professionalism, of my creativity, of my inspirationalism, of my total dedication to providing so many children with Early Years education.

bunyip
08-12-2012, 08:11 PM
Something an Ofsted inspector told me some years ago.

She said that unless we have written permission to continue using / keep children's photos then permission runs out when they leave us.

I questioned it at the time because I was a little confused as it is not actually a legal requirement or a requirement of the EYFS (2008 or 2012) or the Childcare Register that we have written permission for photos - but of course it is good practice and not something you should ignore!!

However, she was adamant!!

She was very hot on data protection generally and I remember she checked all my permissions, wanted to see my locked cupboard where parent / child documents were stored, asked a parent whose child's birthday announcement was in my newsletter if she'd okayed it... etc

It's advice I always give Bunyip because I would hate someone to fall foul of it by default - not knowing is no excuse in law.

Hope this clarifies :D

Thanks for your response Sarah. I do appreciate it and particularly your desire to ensure that no CM ever gets into trouble.

However I am going to disagree, and trust you're not offended, as no offence is intended.

At the risk of being accused of splitting hairs, I'd say there is a significant difference between whose property a photo/image is and who may be entitled to a say in how that image is used. If a photo was the property of the subject pictured therein (or, say, their parents, in the case of a child), then the royal family, celebs, etc. would have very little problems with the press and the courts would never be called upon to issue half the injunctions. The law generally accepts that an original image is the intellectual property of whoever made the image. In short: I take a photograph, it's mine. I take a photo of you, and it's still mine. This is how the professional photographers who do our local school/nursery/play group photos stay in business; they do not spend their lives handing over pictures to parents for nothing.

In terms of how a photo is used, then I'd think the law is only broken if it's used for some harmful or malicious purpose. eg. indecency, or a legally-established invasion of privacy.

The Ofsted inspector can be as "adamant" and as "hot on data protection" as she likes. My approach to her statements would be "sez who?"

Yes, I agree: the law sees ignorance of the law as no excuse, so why are we all accepting the word of inspectors, DOs, trainers, etc. when they do not appear to know the law they insist we might all be breaking? Could somebody please tell me which law, or even which part of the EYFS we are breaking?

This having come up on numerous occasions, I've checked EYFS statutory framework. Unless I've missed it, it contains no requirement for parental consent in relation to photos. The nearest it comes is in section 3.4 which requires us to have a policy on the use of cameras. It does not even give guidance on what that policy should contain (IIRC this caused considerable confusion and many posts on this forum around September of this year.)

bunyip
08-12-2012, 08:40 PM
Oops - I submitted that last when I intended to hit 'preview'. Rant continues:-

When this issue came up before, I was curious enough to make a few phone calls to: NCMA, Ofsted, NSPCC, the ICO, my Local Safeguarding Children Board, and the Home Office. (Yes: it was a very quiet day and I had nothing to do but wait in for a delivery.) I won't go into the calls individually but none of them were able to quote or give reference to any law, regulation or guideline which states that parents have ownership of a child's image, or that consent is needed to take/use the photos. The best any could come up with was that a childcare/educational setting must follow it's own policies and that it is good practice to have clear consent.

I understand there are very good reasons for having good policies and practice in relation to photos and safeguarding. But "good" is not the same thing as "restrictive and draconian." I wouldn't publish a picture of a naked child. In deference to norms, I wouldn't publish one of a child in a bathing costume. I certainly wouldn't circulate a picture which might help an estranged and violent parent track down a child and abduct them. But that is a very long way from saying that every photo I take belongs to the parents and has to be returned to them.

I think we're all in danger of sleepwalking into a less pleasant society here.

First, we're closing our eyes and unwittingly surrendering a civil right: to be able to take photos pretty much anywhere we want and of whatever we want, within reason. This is just what our leaders want. There are plenty of instances of the authorities and the police attempting to suppress investigative journalism or the way the police behave in situations of riot and civil unrest.

Second, and closer to our own 'profession', there is a nasty and growing trend in society that is beginning to view all adults as potential paedophiles until proven categorically innocent. This is poisoning the relationship of trust between generations, means lost opportunities for adults and children alike, and can affect us directly. It's just this sort of thinkng that allows the police to keep unproven allegations on people's CRB records and destroy their careers or opportunities to work or volunteer with children (se the John Pinnington case, for eg.)

I absolutely believe in the need to safeguard. But just because something is a serious matter does not justify excessive measures. Treating every adult as a potential child-offender is no better than, say treating every man as a rapist, every Moslem as a terrorist, or every shopper as a shoplifter.

So, just exactly how far would a parent or the CPS get in a civil or criminal prosecution against a childminder who either kept or shredded an old learning journal in the face of a parent's demands to hand it over?

sarah707
08-12-2012, 09:55 PM
I totally respect what you are saying Bunyip and I have no wish to argue with you... or anyone with opposing views... and I don't take offence at alternative viewpoints!

Please respect my position too.

As a moderator I can only ever give members advice based on Ofsted guidance, DfE information, the statutory documents, advice from my insurance company, discussions with ICO and so on.

I cannot give personal opinions if they might end up getting a childminder into trouble now or in the future.

I can say if I disagree - and make it very clear that it is my personal opinion - and i do that from time to time.

However, when I have been given information by an Ofsted inspector I am never going to go against it because we as a forum cannot risk a member having problems at inspection or as a result of a complaint because a moderator has given them potentially misleading information.

That sometimes leaves me sitting on a very uncomfortable fence... but it is a position Pauline trusted me with and I will always do my best to give the best advice I possibly can.

I leave the alternative views to others ... it is then up to the member what they choose to do next.

:D

bunyip
08-12-2012, 10:02 PM
Understood and fully respected. :)

mammumof4
09-12-2012, 12:07 PM
I can see there are mixed views on this, unsure what to do.
I might put it up in the loft just incase mum ever gets in touch :) really don't want to throw it out!

justgoodfriends
16-12-2012, 03:02 PM
I can see there are mixed views on this, unsure what to do.
I might put it up in the loft just incase mum ever gets in touch :) really don't want to throw it out!

Is she on Facebook? Maybe you could track her down & msg her for their new address?

bunyip
28-12-2012, 01:19 PM
I'm revisiting (resurrecting?) this thread partly out of curiosity, but also as I have been set several diploma tasks on safeguarding, etc. Some of the discussion we had around safeguarding and personal data protection relate to this topic.

Does anyone know (or can you provide me with a contact who would know) the factual answers to any of the following points?

1. Data Protection Act 1998 (DPA) generally applies only to personal data held digitally (computer, etc.) plus paper documentation held within what it calls a "relevant filing system". Granted, the latter could include a business diary or address book. Let's say a CM was storing such data on pc, then printed it off and deleted all the digital files. OK, it's clear that our hypothetical CM is still a 'data handler' under the ICO's terms of reference. BUT: are the printed hard copies now covered by the terms of Act or not?
[As an aside, this may carry some relevance for the OP's query.]

2. Whilst Ofsted (or at least certain of their sub-contracted inspectors) appear to believe that parents have the right to demand quite extensive control over our records - what to keep and what to delete - is that merely a myth that we allow them to perpetuate, or something the law would support? Under the DPA, parents would hold certain 'subject rights'. These include the right to:-

View the personal data that the CM holds.
Have incorrect/inaccurate data corrected or destroyed.
Ensure data is not used in a way that might cause harm or distress.
Demand that data is not used for direct marketing purposes.
Out of these rights, I can just about see that a parent might be able to invoke the "harm or distress" principle, but would they be able to make it stick (legally speaking) in all but the more extreme cases? More generally, do they actually have the rights over our records and intellectual property that we are encouraged to concede to parents?

3. How far can a CM be expected to go when a parent changes their mind and withdraws consent that had previously been given? eg. If a parent gave consent for a child's photo to be used in an ad or magazine, but then changed their mind after publication, what is to be done? Another eg. what if a parent consented for their lo to be included in a group photo which went into a school or setting's year-book, then the parent withdrew consent? Is the setting expected to recall all copies of the yearbook for appropriate editing or destruction? Quite what can a CM or other setting do if a parent really has this right to chop and change over consents?

Does anyone have any answers? :confused:

sarah707
28-12-2012, 03:05 PM
I suggest you ring them bunyip - the guy I spoke to was very helpful.

Apparently they have a huge email backlog but they were happy to give me all the answers on the phone :D

rickysmiths
28-12-2012, 04:06 PM
I would have said that once a parent has given consent they have given consent and if actions happen as a result of that consent for example appearing in a group photo in another child's learning journal and the child leaves then that it that, tough, how can that consent be withdrawn after the event ?

It could only be changed in respect of a future event, so no photos of their child in other LJ's from the date the consent was withdrawn. I think it would be completely unreasonable to look at it in any other way unless there was some very compelling reason.

bunyip
28-12-2012, 06:56 PM
I suggest you ring them bunyip - the guy I spoke to was very helpful.

Apparently they have a huge email backlog but they were happy to give me all the answers on the phone :D

Should I just call the published number or do you have a number for one of your secret 'inside contacts' who is particularly helpful? :D

sarah707
28-12-2012, 07:13 PM
Should I just call the published number or do you have a number for one of your secret 'inside contacts' who is particularly helpful? :D

I did have a fab contact but she left so i just rang the help line last time :D

bunyip
28-12-2012, 07:21 PM
I would have said that once a parent has given consent they have given consent and if actions happen as a result of that consent for example appearing in a group photo in another child's learning journal and the child leaves then that it that, tough, how can that consent be withdrawn after the event ?

It could only be changed in respect of a future event, so no photos of their child in other LJ's from the date the consent was withdrawn. I think it would be completely unreasonable to look at it in any other way unless there was some very compelling reason.

That's pretty much what I've always thought. But there was a thread not long ago where IIRC a parent had changed her mind over consent and was demanding every photo of their child be handed over. This must amount to a huge volume of unpaid time and work for any CM to subject themselves to.

Also, I wonder if part of the problem stems from interpretation. As the DPA only really covers data held on computer, then are print-outs of photos even subject to the Act? I don't see anything in EYFS that requires us to have photo consent, only that we have a policy on cameras and abide by the relevant law (ie. DPA). When I've put this question to trainers and NCMA, they go a bit quiet then come out with the standard old cop-out answer that it's "good practice". I imagine most instances of bending over backwards to suit awkward clients could be described as "good practice" but does that mean we ultimately have to concede the right not to be walked all over? This forum is full of instances of CMs getting stiched up cos they've tried to accommodate parents over every little thing. :(

This is what worries me most though. Ofsted is a regulatory body, charged with ensuring that CMs follow the regulations, ie. follow the EYFS and rules for the Childcare Register. I'm concerned that they are beginning to go beyond that remit and not only interpret, but effectivly add things to the EYFS and inspect us on the basis of rules they have made up that are nothing to do with EYFS. We CMs can actually end up collaborating with that abuse of power because we're writing policies that state a need for photo consent becaue we assume the need is there within EYFS when maybe it isn't there at all. :huh: