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JMcG
23-10-2012, 10:50 PM
After a long and frustrating phone call with Ofsted today I am still unsure of whether I can vary my numbers.

I currently have:

19 month old (full time) - my own daughter
12 month (full time)
3, nearly 4 year old - usually attends 1 afternoon, 12 - 6pm a week, I collect him from pre-school. Sometimes he might come 2 afternoons, but hardly ever!

Ok so the issue I have is this, the family of the 3 year old need random days each week as both do shift work by rota. I was supposed to get these days a month in advance, but in reality I only get them on a Sunday late evening for the following week as this is when one of the parents gets his rota now. A little frustrating as no chance of filling the gaps with ad-hoc care.

I have now been asked to take on 12month old full time in Jan. I need to dot his for income/business reasons. So I need to decide. Do I terminate the contract with the 3 year old which would be awful as love having him and think parents might struggle finding someone with the random hours. Or do I self-vary my numbers with the following reasoning.

- He is already settled here
- I have completed a risk assessment and I'm sure I could manage
- He is very calm, sensible and mature for his age
- all the parents are ok with it
- he is going to school from Sept 2013

It would be easier to let him go :( .... but I'm not sure it would be in his best interests as he is very settled here and certainly the family wouldn't want this.

Ofsted simply said I had to decide for myself! Helpful. If I do it anyway, would would happen if I was inspected and they deemed it wrong. Do I get a warning, insatisfactory grading or lose my reg?! Anyone know. Somehow dont feel its worth the gamble!

loocyloo
24-10-2012, 08:28 AM
tricky one, i don't know!

you've given all the reasons why you can do it, and although it is for new business, only for one, or maybe 2 afternoons a week you would be over your ratio. and it would only be until september, as older child will then start school and be classed in your 5-8 ratio.

could the new fulltimer come part time/ad hoc for december? and then move to fulltime in jan?

good luck x

jillplum
24-10-2012, 09:31 AM
can you get together with another childminder for the short time you are over your numbers. I do that with my sister who is also a childminder.

bunyip
24-10-2012, 10:21 AM
After a long and frustrating phone call with Ofsted today I am still unsure of whether I can vary my numbers.

I currently have:

19 month old (full time) - my own daughter
12 month (full time)
3, nearly 4 year old - usually attends 1 afternoon, 12 - 6pm a week, I collect him from pre-school. Sometimes he might come 2 afternoons, but hardly ever!

Ok so the issue I have is this, the family of the 3 year old need random days each week as both do shift work by rota. I was supposed to get these days a month in advance, but in reality I only get them on a Sunday late evening for the following week as this is when one of the parents gets his rota now. A little frustrating as no chance of filling the gaps with ad-hoc care.

I have now been asked to take on 12month old full time in Jan. I need to dot his for income/business reasons. So I need to decide. Do I terminate the contract with the 3 year old which would be awful as love having him and think parents might struggle finding someone with the random hours. Or do I self-vary my numbers with the following reasoning.

- He is already settled here
- I have completed a risk assessment and I'm sure I could manage
- He is very calm, sensible and mature for his age
- all the parents are ok with it
- he is going to school from Sept 2013

It would be easier to let him go :( .... but I'm not sure it would be in his best interests as he is very settled here and certainly the family wouldn't want this.

Ofsted simply said I had to decide for myself! Helpful. If I do it anyway, would would happen if I was inspected and they deemed it wrong. Do I get a warning, insatisfactory grading or lose my reg?! Anyone know. Somehow dont feel its worth the gamble!

Personally, I'd be very cautious, especially if it's for anything but a very short space of time. We've yet to see how inspectors are interpreting the regs, or what sanctions they'll impose if unhappy. I can only speculate that they'd downgrade the grading and issue an action to get the numbers back to 'normal', but that is purely my speculation.

I think it may count against you that you're doing it for what they'd define as "new business".The examples in their guidance document seem to demand a "continuity of care"; plus some other need to justify calling it "exceptional circumstances"; plus an understanding that it's only for a very short period of time. :(

I hope you won't be offended, but I'm going to pick your argument apart, but only in an attempt to help you. Whilst you've made a very good case for keeping the settled 3yo, Ofsted aren't interested in that, and will say that isn't the issue. You need to make a case which will justify starting the new 12mo and why there are "exceptional circumstances" to do so.

Hope this helps in some way. :(

Mouse
24-10-2012, 11:01 AM
I hope you won't be offended, but I'm going to pick your argument apart, but only in an attempt to help you. Whilst you've made a very good case for keeping the settled 3yo, Ofsted aren't interested in that, and will say that isn't the issue. You need to make a case which will justify starting the new 12mo and why there are "exceptional circumstances" to do so.

Hope this helps in some way. :(

I have heard this mentioned a few times lately. CMs seem to be justifying continuity of care for an existing child, not considering the variation is actually for the new child.
At our group yesterday one minder was talking about a new child she is taking on. She already has 2 full time children & 1 part timer. She is taking on a new full timer & granting herself an exception for the existing part-timer, citing continuity of care. She was adamant she could do it and by the end of the meeting, most of the other cms could see the 'logic' in it :panic:

I've decided to keep my nose out of their business now. I've explained what I think, they don't listen, so I'll leave them to it :(

Going back to the OP's question, I don't think you can grant yourself an exception as you are applying it to take on new business.

FussyElmo
24-10-2012, 11:06 AM
I have heard this mentioned a few times lately. CMs seem to be justifying continuity of care for an existing child, not considering the variation is actually for the new child.
At our group yesterday one minder was talking about a new child she is taking on. She already has 2 full time children & 1 part timer. She is taking on a new full timer & granting herself an exception for the existing part-timer, citing continuity of care. She was adamant she could do it and by the end of the meeting, most of the other cms could see the 'logic' in it :panic:

I've decided to keep my nose out of their business now. I've explained what I think, they don't listen, so I'll leave them to it :(

Going back to the OP's question, I don't think you can grant yourself an exception as you are applying it to take on new business.

was just about to say you are justifying your variation for an existing child not your new child..........

JCrakers
24-10-2012, 11:26 AM
I find these self variations more trouble than they are worth. I would say this is a valid reason for a variation. You have thought it through. I would rather have a full timer than someone who swaps and changes especially if the wages I earn pay the bills.

Personally I would do this because its in the interest of the child....

A. If you are having to give notice to the other family it would be better for the child to stay with you
B. it saves the child from having to settle into another childminder for a matter of months before he starts school

This is one of those times where everyone will have differences of opinions because the new eyfs doesn't give any help at all. There is no helpline. There are no examples to follow and if there were examples then everyone's situation would be slightly different.
I had a different situation, ofsted were not interested, my DO just said read the paperwork, most people on here said they wouldn't do it. In the end I emailed someone for help and advice and they said they personally would.

If you were taking a new child on for the sake of the money only then that wouldn't be a valid reason but as you have thought about the child having to go somewhere else then in the interest of the child then I would keep him on. But this is me personally so it would be on my head. I would document showing everything including how unsettled the child would be if moved.

Rubybubbles
24-10-2012, 11:38 AM
Agree with bunyip

No! You can not start a new child and offer COC to current child as the.the new child would be erm NEW!!

Maybe get hold of your delevlopment officer for advise, at least that way you can fall back on them!!

Mouse
24-10-2012, 11:42 AM
I find these self variations more trouble than they are worth. I would say this is a valid reason for a variation. You have thought it through. I would rather have a full timer than someone who swaps and changes especially if the wages I earn pay the bills.

Personally I would do this because its in the interest of the child....

A. If you are having to give notice to the other family it would be better for the child to stay with you
B. it saves the child from having to settle into another childminder for a matter of months before he starts school

This is one of those times where everyone will have differences of opinions because the new eyfs doesn't give any help at all. There is no helpline. There are no examples to follow and if there were examples then everyone's situation would be slightly different.
I had a different situation, ofsted were not interested, my DO just said read the paperwork, most people on here said they wouldn't do it. In the end I emailed someone for help and advice and they said they personally would.

If you were taking a new child on for the sake of the money only then that wouldn't be a valid reason but as you have thought about the child having to go somewhere else then in the interest of the child then I would keep him on. But this is me personally so it would be on my head. I would document showing everything including how unsettled the child would be if moved.

I find an easy way of looking at it is:

Do I have the space to take on this new child?

Answer YES - great, sign them up!

Answer NO - is this new child coming to me for continuity of care, or because of a sibling already being in my care?

Answer YES - OK to grant an exception if all other conditions are met

Answer NO - then you can't take on the new child. You don't have space for them and they are not coming to you for continuity of care, or because of a sibling.

But I agree with you completely. The help & guidance is rubbish and it is up to each childminder to make their own decision based on their understanding of the rules.

JCrakers
24-10-2012, 11:56 AM
But...look at it this way

I need to pay the bills, my mortgage is very important. So I have been asked to have a child full time. This will help me immensely financially. I already have little money for extras like Xmas etc.

I would take on a full timer over someone who comes once a week so I would have to say to the 3yr old (as mean as it sounds) I don't have the space anymore for the swapping and changing days contract. It may seem horrible but my business head is on when my mortgage comes into the equation.

So i would have to give notice and the parents would now have to find someone else for their 3yr old from January until school starts. This 3yr old knows me, is settled here and he feels safe and secure. Now I'm going to rip him from my setting and he's going to have to settle somewhere else. This is where the variations come apart because nowhere in the eyfs does it mention this. This is the flaw.

These are the reasons I would give if my inspector asked me. If they can't see this then they don't have any interest of the child at all and it's all about the bleedin paperwork. :mad:

But I'm not telling anyone to do this...this is my choice :D I would probably end the contract with the 3yr old, take on the new child and offer the existing family a new contract. Wrong as it sounds, I wouldn't be keeping the 3yr old on for money reasons I would be keeping him on for his security and well being.

Mouse
24-10-2012, 12:11 PM
But...look at it this way

I need to pay the bills, my mortgage is very important. So I have been asked to have a child full time. This will help me immensely financially. I already have little money for extras like Xmas etc.

I would take on a full timer over someone who comes once a week so I would have to say to the 3yr old (as mean as it sounds) I don't have the space anymore for the swapping and changing days contract. It may seem horrible but my business head is on when my mortgage comes into the equation.

So i would have to give notice and the parents would now have to find someone else for their 3yr old from January until school starts. This 3yr old knows me, is settled here and he feels safe and secure. Now I'm going to rip him from my setting and he's going to have to settle somewhere else. This is where the variations come apart because nowhere in the eyfs does it mention this. This is the flaw.

These are the reasons I would give if my inspector asked me. If they can't see this then they don't have any interest of the child at all and it's all about the bleedin paperwork. :mad:

But I'm not telling anyone to do this...this is my choice :D I would probably end the contract with the 3yr old, take on the new child and offer the existing family a new contract. Wrong as it sounds, I wouldn't be keeping the 3yr old on for money reasons I would be keeping him on for his security and well being.

But that decision has nothing to do with Ofsted. They are not saying you would have to give notice to this child. They would be saying you do not have the space to take on a new child. I'm afraid it would see it as your bad planning on taking on a child you couldn't afford to keep, not Ofsted's fault for enforcing the regulations in the Statutory Framework.
If a full time child was needed for financial reasons, parents of the part timer should have been told that they may be given notice at some point in the future if one came along.

If you think what the old variation request forms were like, they asked who was the new child you wanted to take on and why. I don't think "because I want the extra money" would swing it :(

FussyElmo
24-10-2012, 12:15 PM
The problem is the unknown - we dont know what sanctions will be taken against cms for granting a variation that ofsted deem wrong.

IF there is an accident and ofsted deem you granted your variation for profit (a harsh way of looking at it) are you then covered by your insurance. Yes this is the worse case scenario. If not are you possibly setting yourself to be sued by your parents. Alot of us will remember the cm who ended up not being covered when she let the child use the trampoline :(

Only you can make the decision :thumbsup:

bunyip
24-10-2012, 12:23 PM
Agree with bunyip

No! You can not start a new child and offer COC to current child as the.the new child would be erm NEW!!

Maybe get hold of your delevlopment officer for advise, at least that way you can fall back on them!!

...unless the DO is one of the ones who is giving out duff information. Some of them are more confused than anyone. :p

OP and JC: you cannot build the case for 'continuity of care' and 'exceptional circumstances' around the existing 3yo. Put simply, the 3 yo will receive continuity of care by you not taking on the new business. It would be the fact of taking on the new 12mo that would create the need to drop the 3yo, thereby jeapardising the continuity of care. :(

jillplum
24-10-2012, 01:14 PM
The way I look at is to ask myself would ofsted have agreed to this variation under the old system? Yes then fine I can give myself a variation. No then no I can't do it.

JMcG
24-10-2012, 09:18 PM
Thanks for all the feedback ladies. I do feel that this new way of childminders deciding for themselves is going to be open to so many issues. So anyway I've made a decision!

When taking on said 3 year old I had only just registered. This is why being a newby I was not sure at that point if I could manage 3 full timers and so was happy to agree to the random days contract. Rookie error! Anyway a year on I am more confident and ready to take on more.

So here goes I've decided that I will keep the 3 year old and also take on the new full time baby. I will be able to do this because the days that I have the 3 year old I will be taking my own daughter to another childminder or a friend to be looked after. This means I can do what I need to business wise (we're saving for a bigger house and I need to look at the bigger picture) and I also don't have to give notice on the 3 year old which I would have just felt so bad about. I know it's silly as I'm running a business and they have quite drastically changed their terms but to have to say I couldn't have him anymore because of me needing to earn more money would have been really really hard.

I think I'm happy with my decision, let's hope it works out!!!

miffy
24-10-2012, 09:47 PM
It really is such a grey area. I can see all the arguments that you don't have space for the new child so shouldn't take it on BUT if you did start the child on the days you had space and then when the child had been with you a few weeks apply a variation for the other days that would be considered continuity of care because the child is already with you.

What hasn't been tested yet is Ofsted's response if we get it wrong or they disagree with our decision and, wher does that leave us insurance wise if something goes wrong (like a serious accident) and Ofsted then say we were in breach of our registration, ie uninsured too?

Miffy xx

christine e
25-10-2012, 06:10 AM
Thanks for all the feedback ladies. I do feel that this new way of childminders deciding for themselves is going to be open to so many issues. So anyway I've made a decision!

When taking on said 3 year old I had only just registered. This is why being a newby I was not sure at that point if I could manage 3 full timers and so was happy to agree to the random days contract. Rookie error! Anyway a year on I am more confident and ready to take on more.

So here goes I've decided that I will keep the 3 year old and also take on the new full time baby. I will be able to do this because the days that I have the 3 year old I will be taking my own daughter to another childminder or a friend to be looked after. This means I can do what I need to business wise (we're saving for a bigger house and I need to look at the bigger picture) and I also don't have to give notice on the 3 year old which I would have just felt so bad about. I know it's silly as I'm running a business and they have quite drastically changed their terms but to have to say I couldn't have him anymore because of me needing to earn more money would have been really really hard.

I think I'm happy with my decision, let's hope it works out!!!

Sorry to have to say this but I don't think you can get round it that way your own children have to be included in your numbers whether they are with you or not

Mouse
25-10-2012, 07:52 AM
Sorry to have to say this but I don't think you can get round it that way your own children have to be included in your numbers whether they are with you or not

With the new EYFS there is something about if you can guarantee your own children won't be present, then you can use their space for another child.

Yet another grey area though.

mama2three
25-10-2012, 08:16 AM
With the new EYFS there is something about if you can guarantee your own children won't be present, then you can use their space for another child.

Yet another grey area though.

I know I read this when I first went through the new eyfs , but having looked again cant find it! Do you know where its stated?

Bear23
25-10-2012, 08:25 AM
With the new EYFS there is something about if you can guarantee your own children won't be present, then you can use their space for another child.

Yet another grey area though.

really? i didn't know that x

christine e
25-10-2012, 08:26 AM
At the back of my mind did wonder if it had changed but just gone and had yet another look at stat guidance and cannot see anything - page 21 3.39 -3.41 details childminder ratios and there is no mention of own children there other than note 20 at bottom of page which states
20 The numbers include the childminder's own children or any other children for whom they are responsible - for example, children who the childminder is fostering.
Would have thought it would have been here if there was any change to the previous EYFS requirements

Bear23
25-10-2012, 08:26 AM
really? i didn't know that x

not that it effects me either way lol, mines 9. just interesting x

Mouse
25-10-2012, 08:33 AM
really? i didn't know that x

Sarah sent me a link once, but I can't find it.

Someone had posted about taking on an extra child while their own child was at nursery and a few of us had said how your own chidren still counted in your numbers even if they weren't with you.
She said in the new EYFS you could use your child's space if they were away from home in a guaranteed arrangement (or something like that). Typically I can't find the message or the link!
I've messaged Sarah to ask :thumbsup:

Mouse
25-10-2012, 08:34 AM
not that it effects me either way lol, mines 9. just interesting x

Same here. My chidren are older, but it's interesting to know!

christine e
25-10-2012, 08:36 AM
not that it effects me either way lol, mines 9. just interesting x

See my post above. Can someone tell us where in the stat requirements it states that if your own children are not present then they do not have to be included in numbers. Under the old requirements your own children reduced the number on your certificate so that if you had a 1 year old your certificate was for 5 under 8 years with only 2 under 5 years. Are the new certificates going to be different?

Bear23
25-10-2012, 08:54 AM
Thanks mouse x

its all soooooooooooo confusing now. x

jane5
25-10-2012, 09:12 AM
I have phoned Ofsted this week with a similar situation, I signed a new baby last march to start this week, taking my dds place as she started school, in the mean time a current par time child needed to swap days meaning when this new lo started I would have 4 under 3 a couple of mornings.
Ofsted were very clear that because I could prove that the new lo parents signed the contract months ago and the proof being that they paid a deposit into my bank account last march and is on my statement then they deemed the original child taking me over my numbers was COC, having a new child to pay my bills was not a good enough reason.

I don't know about your own child being with somebody else because my dd is 4 I am only ever allowed to have 5 children under 8 with my dd taking that number up to 6 under 8.

sarah707
25-10-2012, 11:24 AM
Thank you for your message Mouse. :thumbsup:

Ofsted informed me - as you remembered - that if arrangements for your own child are secure and will not fall through then you can replace them with another child.

Ofsted state they have been reticent to authorise variations based on this type of scenario before because it is hard to prove that your own child will not, for example, be sent home from granny's house if ill or similar.

I do have the full explanation in writing if anyone wants to see it.

Hth :D

JCrakers
25-10-2012, 11:32 AM
I have phoned Ofsted this week with a similar situation, I signed a new baby last march to start this week, taking my dds place as she started school, in the mean time a current par time child needed to swap days meaning when this new lo started I would have 4 under 3 a couple of mornings.
Ofsted were very clear that because I could prove that the new lo parents signed the contract months ago and the proof being that they paid a deposit into my bank account last march and is on my statement then they deemed the original child taking me over my numbers was COC, having a new child to pay my bills was not a good enough reason.

I don't know about your own child being with somebody else because my dd is 4 I am only ever allowed to have 5 children under 8 with my dd taking that number up to 6 under 8.


How did you manage to get this from ofsted. When I phoned and emailed with a question they basically told me to do one.....

lynnfi
25-10-2012, 12:02 PM
The question is controvertial indeed but one thing retains my attention:

If Ofsted told you that it is up to you to decide, it does mean that they (or at least the person you talked to, so I would take his/her name) agree it is possible for you to do so. Otherwise they would have said no, not legally possible.

Such as if you asked if you could take 7 children below 8years old it would def be a no.

Obviously this is not the case here, if it is for you to decide. So blurred area really. There are various interpretations according to how you turn things around.

And tbh I like the fact that is is not clear, because it leaves the door opened. It all depends on individuality as far as coping and doing a great work is concerned. Some settings with 2 under five will not be great etc, while some with 4 under 5 such as in the case of PO will thrive and do great. I think that is why it is voluntary blurred.
Don't tell me they did not know what they were doing when they wrote the texts. They could in a few well chosen sentences have clarified things very much more clearly.
They chose not to do so. Just my opinion.

In the end the inspector will judge.

I would go for it if you are sure you are going to provide quality and there is no risk due to numbers.

jane5
25-10-2012, 12:05 PM
How did you manage to get this from ofsted. When I phoned and emailed with a question they basically told me to do one.....

I said I wasn't totally clear on the rules and asked for their guidance as my do is on holiday and the lady agreed that I was ok because it was COC. I think it depends on who you talk to and she didn't give me permission she agreed that in my situation I was within the rules.

samb
25-10-2012, 01:24 PM
Jane5

Glad you have said about your situation as I have also something similar and I was beginning to panic! In August current mindee who has come 2 days a week for nearly 2 years, Mum told me she was pregnant and that I would therefore be losing mindee at xmas. That week I had an email enquiry from a lady looking for care for her baby from january on the 2 days that current mindee attends. I spoke to current mindees mum and explained the situation and she said to go for it. I did, Mum liked me and signed up in September and so I am currently holding the space for her. In the meantime current mindees mum asked if I could continue 1 day a week, which I can do as 1 day I currently only have this mindee so in Jan will have current and new mindee so still have space. No problem. This week current mindees mum has asked me if I continue to have current mindee on the other day (taking me to 2 siblings aged 4 and by then 19months, current mindee almost 3, plus new mindee 11 months) for 5 weeks (so 5 times, the last one being the day she is booked in for a cesarean for baby). I have just said I am not sure and will have to look into it.

I can, like you prove that the contract and registration fee was paid before this for the new mindee. I would class the variation for current mindee as Mum has asked for extra hours for coninuity of care at an unsettling time for him with new baby sibling. I have had 4 under 5s on ofsted variations (the 2 siblings, the current mindee plus my son who is now ft at school) and so I am confident and have RA etc. So I am thinking that after your conversation with Ofsted I can say yes? My trouble is that other than emails from current mindees mum asking if I can continue to have him until 1st week of feb I haven't got anything in writing about him leaving as Mum spoke to me about it verbally. Do I need to get her to backdate me some letters so I have something in writing and can show she changed her mind? She is very laid back and I am sure she wouldn't mind.

bunyip
25-10-2012, 06:13 PM
The question is controvertial indeed but one thing retains my attention:

If Ofsted told you that it is up to you to decide, it does mean that they (or at least the person you talked to, so I would take his/her name) agree it is possible for you to do so. Otherwise they would have said no, not legally possible.

Such as if you asked if you could take 7 children below 8years old it would def be a no.

Obviously this is not the case here, if it is for you to decide. So blurred area really. There are various interpretations according to how you turn things around.

And tbh I like the fact that is is not clear, because it leaves the door opened. It all depends on individuality as far as coping and doing a great work is concerned. Some settings with 2 under five will not be great etc, while some with 4 under 5 such as in the case of PO will thrive and do great. I think that is why it is voluntary blurred.
Don't tell me they did not know what they were doing when they wrote the texts. They could in a few well chosen sentences have clarified things very much more clearly.
They chose not to do so. Just my opinion.

In the end the inspector will judge.

I would go for it if you are sure you are going to provide quality and there is no risk due to numbers.

I think this is a very cogent and logical argument. The practical problem for all CMs is: will individual inspectors follow the same logic. As lynnfi says, "In the end the inspector will judge." 2 months into the new EYFS it's almost impossible to say how each inspector will judge and whether they'll all be following the same interpretation.

As jane5 says, when you speak to an Ofsted telephone person, "... it depends on who you talk to...". And it's not the telephone people who inspect us or, indeed, take much responsibility for what they say. (I've yet to be convinced that some of the telephone people could find a CM's address in broad daylight.:rolleyes:)

Just to be clear, any blurring of the rules in EYFS isn't down to Ofsted cos they didn't write EYFS. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Ofsted have been left just as uncertain of the precise interpretation as EY practitioners seem to be, collectively speaking. Certainly they don't want to take any responsibility, as that might mean them being liable for permitting a variation which leads to a bad consequence. But this doesn't necessarily help us when staring down the barrel of an inspection, a complaint, or an insurance company seeking wriggle-room in the aftermath of an accident.

I don't think we'll get any meaningful picture of the way this will be interpreted until a LOT of inspections have been carried out and we see a lot of feedback on this forum by inspectees (if that's a word:p). Until then, I think it's very much a matter of CMs' personalities, with the optimists going one way and the more risk-averse going the other. Personally, I would not take (or advise anyone else to take) too much of a risk, but play it as safe as possible. But everyone has to decide for themselves where they stand, whether they believe their variation case will pass close scrutiny, and stand or fall by that decision - bearing in mind what may be at stake: our grading? our registration? our insurance? - even that is unclear.

I sincerely hope you're right and I'm wrong. The next few months/years will tell. I just hope we're not going to see a wave of post-inspection CMs on these boards who've been dealt poor grades, action points, or with insurer difficulties. :ohdear:

jackie 7
25-10-2012, 06:25 PM
the other thing is that the 3 year old can get 15 hours free. Do you provide it? if not say to the mum that 3 year old can have the free from a nursery and take on the new child. yes you like the 3 year old but its not paying the morgage and they will leave next year and with the new one you will not have to replace them that soon.

JMcG
25-10-2012, 09:35 PM
[QUOTE=jackie 7;1175019]the other thing is that the 3 year old can get 15 hours free. Do you provide it? if not say to the mum that 3 year old can have the free from a nursery and take on the new child. yes you like the 3 year old but its not paying the morgage and they will leave next year.

The 3 year old attends pre school every week day morning. The reason I collect him some days is because of the nature of the shift work that mum and dad do. They can't say to pre-school we need certain set days as their shifts vary every week. Also pre-school finishes at 3pm anyway and they collect at 6pm.

It's not just about liking him, it's also that I think they will seriously struggle to make new arrangements if I give notice so I'm stuck between trying to meet my own fanatical needs and thinking about the family's childcare needs.

I'm gutted that I hadn't thought about the fact that my daughter counts all the time! Although it does seem a less risky strategy to do it this way rather than having all 4 at the same time.

Wow! What a difficult one.

Paulab
25-10-2012, 10:11 PM
yes I spoke to my do and yes if you can guarantee that your own children will not come back and impact your numbers you can increase, but you cannot have them back if ill or unsettled, they said being at a nursery or other child minder is not guaranteed but if a family member ie other parent /grandparent had them they are less likely to send them home,

hope this helps

JMcG
26-10-2012, 06:21 AM
yes I spoke to my do and yes if you can guarantee that your own children will not come back and impact your numbers you can increase, but you cannot have them back if ill or unsettled, they said being at a nursery or other child minder is not guaranteed but if a family member ie other parent /grandparent had them they are less likely to send them home,

hope this helps

Ok thanks. She would be with her auntie, gran, grandad or a childminder who has had her before and she sees twice a week anyway, so with family would be fine and already feels very settled with the childminder, and if she was that unwell that she couldn't be with any of those options then surely she would be at home with me and I wouldn't have my mindees anyway? Do other childminders still mind if their own children are ill? Surely that's not ok?

Mouse
26-10-2012, 10:09 AM
Thank you for your message Mouse. :thumbsup:

Ofsted informed me - as you remembered - that if arrangements for your own child are secure and will not fall through then you can replace them with another child.

Ofsted state they have been reticent to authorise variations based on this type of scenario before because it is hard to prove that your own child will not, for example, be sent home from granny's house if ill or similar.

I do have the full explanation in writing if anyone wants to see it.

Hth :D

Thank you Sarah :thumbsup:

It's good to know I didn't dream it up :laughing:

jane5
26-10-2012, 09:50 PM
Thank you for your message Mouse. :thumbsup:

Ofsted informed me - as you remembered - that if arrangements for your own child are secure and will not fall through then you can replace them with another child.

Ofsted state they have been reticent to authorise variations based on this type of scenario before because it is hard to prove that your own child will not, for example, be sent home from granny's house if ill or similar.

I do have the full explanation in writing if anyone wants to see it.

Hth :D

This is very interesting Sarah.... Does this mean that if my husband who is my assistant is at home and is in charge of dd, I could then replace her with another child??? And what are the rules now about increasing numbers if you have an assistant, when I registered dh as my assistant I didn't ask for my numbers to be increased, do I still have to apply to Ofsted to increase numbers when working with him ??

This is another case of pot luck when talking to Ofsted.
I was told I could not replace dd.